S12.E05: Fugitive of the Judoon

[DanaK]

Some favorite bits:
- Everything with Jack and the companions, but especially when he enters into the scene. I was pretty much cheering because it was so unexpected

- The Doctor walking back to her Tardis at the end looking shellshocked

- That whole sequence where the Doctor unburies the Tardis and Ruth breaks the glass and gets her memories back. The music was fantastic

- The sequences in the car with the Doctor questioning Ruth

I have to say, for whatever reason, I keep doubting Chibnall would go this deep into an arc and possibly the show's lore (I've never seen anything else he's written, other than Broadchurch and a few previous Doctor Who episodes). So he has surprised me with this arc. I keep thinking he wouldn't do this or that and he keeps surprising me. I totally didn't expect him to bring back Jack.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by DanaK

[cardigirl]

Hooray! I loved it! Totally surprised by Captain Jack and I was so glad to see him! He loves the Doctor, but the Doctor doesn’t always love him back, for some reason. Can’t wait to see where this storyline goes. 

[libgirl2]

regarding Gat, I thought the Doctor could sense other Time Lords. It wasn't as if she was masking who she was, so I'm a bit confused.

[Chaos Theory]

If anything else I chuckled at Jack Harkness’s reaction to finding out The Doctor was a woman now.  “This I’ve got to see.”  
 

This show has always been at its best when it has overarching stories which was missing last year.   I like the idea of a version of The Doctor that may or may not be in out Doctor’s past.   The promise of the cyber men and more Captain Jack Harkness.

Things are finally starting to shape up.

[gonzosgirrl]

I was totally unspoiled, but half-expecting River (sweeties). I recognized Jack's voice almost immediately though, and went through a few seconds of 'No. No? Really? YES! SQUEEEEE!' as he appeared. I love everything about Jack and I am just thrilled to see him. I grinned at the gleam in his eye when he realized 13 is a female, and grinned a little harder knowing it didn't really matter to him either way; he's always had a gleam in his eye for the Doctor. 🙂

Seems like Ruth and the lone Cyberman have to have some kind of connection. I am genuinely excited to see how it plays out. This episode cemented my feelings for this incarnation of the Doctor - I'm all in!

[DanaK]

I’m thinking Gat’s appearance makes this whole thing somewhat sticker. She also seemed to be from the past because she also didn’t recognize WhitDoc or Gallifrey’s destruction. Her words and manner also suggested a rather militaristic Gallifrey. Classic watchers, reading the history of the Classic era suggests the Time Lords generally had a hands off policy and didn’t want to get involved in things. Am I remembering this right? The history stuff also suggests that further into the past, the Time Lords engaged more and fought wars. There also seem to be suggestions that the creation of Gallifrey and the Time Lords is shrouded in mystery and legend. So Ruth and Gat together suggests they are from earlier than the 1st Doctor or an alternate time line or universe. I think WhitDoc needs more info from RuthDoc

On a different matter, Jack said that the Alliance has sent something to the past, suggesting this present, I think in order to help fight the Cybermen. I wonder how that will play into things?

[Enigma X]

I hate people who comment on an episode that they have not seen yet. Alas, that will be me now. I absolutely hate Jack Harkness and am not anticipating that watching this episode will change that.

[Sakura12]

I hope Jack comes back, I want him to meet 13. I'm so happy they got Barrowman to come back. He's such a ham and his entrance was cheesy but that is Jack.  I love when the new companions meet old companions. Although I'm surprised Graham didn't ask why Jack kissed him and wonder what is relationship was with the Doc. But I suppose after seeing him flirt with all of them he had his answer. 

I'm wondering if this other Doctor could be the Other. That's a story that started with the Seventh Doctor and never expanded on. 

[John Potts]

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

regarding Gat, I thought the Doctor could sense other Time Lords. It wasn't as if she was masking who she was, so I'm a bit confused.

To Fanwank - She said "Gallifreyan" (however that's spelt), that does not necessarily mean "Time Lord". Maybe Time Lords put out some sort of psychic field that other Time Lords can detect (except when they can't, obviously!).

Ooh! Could Ruth be a Regeneration of Jenny? She would have the Doctor's DNA (or whatever Gallifreyans have). Yes, she should still know about the sonic and the Time War, but maybe the cloning process isn't 100%. But "Season 7B" or pre-Unearthly Child Doctor are other possibilities (both bring continuity problems, but I can live with that).

[gail56]

 Doctor Ruth! Jack! Very entertaining episode. Like other posters said, wish Jack could have interacted with the current Doctor. He did say he will be there for her so fully expect to see him pop up again at some point.

I am interested to see how they explain this other Doctor without retconning the past. For example, making this one before One. Hopefully they don't do that. I like shows maintaining continuity. It makes me cranky when they don't. I have seen it in other shows I have watched long term and it always bugs me. It won't stop me from watching if they do that, but it will bug me, lol!

Regarding the question of the Time Lords interfering in original Who. Back when I started watching Tom Baker's Doctor, there was an episode where one of the Time Lords stated they didn't interfere in the universe. He said they observe only. He told the Doctor to "practice detachment" to resist the urge to interfere. I have always loved what 4 said in response, "I'd rather care!"

Back to Doctor Ruth. She is kick-ass and I love her! Loved the interaction between the 2 Doctors. Fun!

[libgirl2]

33 minutes ago, John Potts said:

To Fanwank - She said "Gallifreyan" (however that's spelt), that does not necessarily mean "Time Lord". Maybe Time Lords put out some sort of psychic field that other Time Lords can detect (except when they can't, obviously!).

Ooh! Could Ruth be a Regeneration of Jenny? She would have the Doctor's DNA (or whatever Gallifreyans have). Yes, she should still know about the sonic and the Time War, but maybe the cloning process isn't 100%. But "Season 7B" or pre-Unearthly Child Doctor are other possibilities (both bring continuity problems, but I can live with that).

I thought it was mentioned that she was a Time Lord. 

If this is alternate universe, how did the Doctor get there?

On Facebook, someone mentioned 11 saying he had a brother. Could Ruth be him? 

[gail56]

7 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

The presence of Gat indicates something weird is happening—if she's from the Gallifrey we last saw located 4 billion years in the future she should be well aware that 21st century Earth is positively riddled with multiple incarnations of the Doctor, and that killing an unsuspected past version of her would be Extra Double Plus No Good.

That is a big question I have. There have been many versions of the Doctor on Earth and all over the universe. The Judoon couldn't find one of these versions? Had to find the one that was hiding? Plus the Judoon have had past interactions with the Doctor. 10 for example. Interesting to see why these Judoon didn't just go after 13 and looked for a needle in a haystack instead.

[John Potts]

28 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I thought it was mentioned that she was a Time Lord.

They definitely said Gallifreyan - I can't swear they didn't say Time Lord at other points. And it sounds just like the sort of thing the CIA would do (by which I mean "Celestial Intervention Agency" - what else could it stand for?).

It being an older Doctor would also fit with the older school design of the TARDIS.

Edited January 27, 2020 by John Potts

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm wondering if this other Doctor could be the Other. That's a story that started with the Seventh Doctor and never expanded on. 

They barely sractched the surface of that idea in the TV show. I don't think "the Other" was even mentioned that way; they only alluded very elusively to there being a third Founding Father to the Time Lords, besides Rassilon and Omega, without naming him (or her). That notion was only fully developed in Marc Platt's novel Lungbarrow, published a few years after the show and then made available as a free download here. 

Is is rather involved and I doubt that the TV show would be able to do it justice if they tried to work along the same lines; they tend to favour the simplistic and might choose the easy "the Doctor was the Other" route, which Platt did not.

 

[Eulipian 5k]

14 hours ago, RandomWatcher said:

Well I'm confused, anyone else?

I feel like Donna with a meta-Doctor crisis; brain burning up!. This whole day with its bad news needs to be wiped from my memory. It looks like memories and identities are being switched around like a three-card monte. Does Gat bring to mind any ole-Who adversaries?

People are saying this messes with the Doctor memories of her/him-self; but it's really messing with our memories of the Doctor; did we forget a  regeneration?, is Doctor Ruth a Silent we forgot? She wore glasses like 10 & 11, but no other part of the costume looked familiar. She strode up to the Doctor announcing herself just as the previous "Doctor" that the 10th met, (with the solitary wooden Cyberman).

Doctor X/Y gave strong River Song vibes driving "her" TARDIS. Spotted Cap'n Jack's voice the minute he spoke to Graham. I'm noticing that the companions are being zapped to somewhere else while the Doctor finds a "new companion" (Ada. et al and now Ruth) . This time the Fam had the critical info to convey to the Doctor. But they need to grill her for more info! Give up the goods or we'll force feed you pears!

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

If anything else I chuckled at Jack Harkness’s reaction to finding out The Doctor was a woman now.  “This I’ve got to see.”  
 

He did make a "threesome" joke. I wonder how he'll deal with another Doctor Ruth, "Are you the Dr. Ruth or The Doctor, Ruth? Asking for a friend."

I like what Chibnall has done with this series. He is really putting the screws to all who felt they knew Dr Who - "I'm the show runner Victorious"

Also:

Is the story of John Barrowman's back/spinal injury true, or was it just a diversion?

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

Ooh! Could Ruth be a Regeneration of Jenny? She would have the Doctor's DNA (or whatever Gallifreyans have).

I like this idea! It's a dangling thread that has never been pulled. Ruth is specifically saying she's the Doctor, not just another Time Lord, and it would explain them being 'the same person' per Jody-Doctor scanning herself.

[futurechemist]

This season is confusing.  We have a version of the Master and we don't know where they fit into the timeline.  Now we have a version of the Doctor and we don't know where they fit into the timeline.

[Sakura12]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I like this idea! It's a dangling thread that has never been pulled. Ruth is specifically saying she's the Doctor, not just another Time Lord, and it would explain them being 'the same person' per Jody-Doctor scanning herself.

Ruth being Jenny would be easier to explain and she has military training and had no issues using guns. As for why she doesn't remember the Doctor, she could've had her memory wiped at some point. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Ruth being Jenny would be easier to explain and she has military training and had no issues using guns. As for why she doesn't remember the Doctor, she could've had her memory wiped at some point. 

Yes, or just spotty memories from the cloning process. Or maybe she would have recognized 10, but not 13.

Also, I only watched once last night, but didn't Ruth say something when the Doctor mentioned using the weapons? Something along the lines of shhh, don't let them hear that?

[Keely]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Doctor X/Y gave strong River Song vibes driving "her" TARDIS. Spotted Cap'n Jack's voice the minute he spoke to Graham. I'm noticing that the companions are being zapped to somewhere else while the Doctor finds a "new companion" (Ada. et al and now Ruth) . This time the Fam had the critical info to convey to the Doctor. But they need to grill her for more info! Give up the goods or we'll force feed you pears!

From the time Ruth broke the glass onward, the actress might as well have been channeling Alex as River. If she doesn't turn out to be River, I will be very surprised. The argument between them at the end, when Ruth kept telling the Doc to be quiet, was eerily similar to the Husbands of River Song when Ruth kept shushing and telling her to be quiet. The facial expressions and tone were on seriously on point. 

Overall, I loved this episode. It hit all the right notes and was the best ep they've done since the regen for me. I have no idea what is going on and I don't care. The overall was pretty dang good and if there were plot holes or problems I was having too much fun to notice or care. Major props to them for keeping Jack's return under wraps. That could not have been easy.

I'm not at all convinced Ruth is the doctor though. Like the doctor was during the episode, the fans are now so focused on it I can't help but to think it's a misdirect and Ruth is someone else entirely. How that works I don't know, but the doctor incorrectly identified Ruth as human at the start. Then an unknown species whose encryption she couldn't break. Considering the trouble she had scanning her correctly, that casts doubt over her 'same person' scan - to me anyway.

[Eulipian 5k]

2 minutes ago, Keely said:

From the time Ruth broke the glass onward, the actress might as well have been channeling Alex as River. If she doesn't turn out to be River, I will be very surprised.

You n me both. The only counter to that is that the "brakes" were wheezing on her TARDIS, lol.

Maybe she's Rose's (Pete's world) copy of 10,: "I thought we were getting somewhere. and then he goes and does this..."

[libgirl2]

30 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

You n me both. The only counter to that is that the "brakes" were wheezing on her TARDIS, lol.

Maybe she's Rose's (Pete's world) copy of 10,: "I thought we were getting somewhere. and then he goes and does this..."

Yea, I have to admit she was more River-like than Doctor-like.  I just don't think she is THE Doctor. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by libgirl2

[UNOSEZ]

Pretty awesome. Really enjoyed it.. Loved the meta-ness of having a forgotten black female doctor.. As unfortunately previous contributions by black women have gone unheralded for too long before coming to light later... And just for the show itself.. I've always wished for a more martial doctor.. Or just a more physical time lord.. Not all the time.. David tenant is still my fave doctor.. But every once in a while all that pacifism feels overly idealistic.. And watching Ruth dispatch those judoon was top notch.. ( also im sure some of the more unsavory posters on the Internet are clutching their pearls and screaming "agenda/ PC nonsense " etc... And having them upset is always fun) 

[Llywela]

Okay, I am very confused.

I've been away for the weekend so didn't get to see the episode until tonight, but unfortunately got spoiled by stupid Google headlines screaming 'first black Doctor' and claiming, for the record, that this one seems to come before Hartnell's First Doctor. Except that she can't, because if she did her TARDIS wouldn't be a police box - that's an absolute, we saw on screen in the second ever episode the moment it got stuck in police box shape, after Hartnell's Doctor kidnapped Ian and Barbara from 1963. But there's nowhere else she could fit in the history - we've seen every regeneration on-screen now, and the sonic screwdriver has been around since Troughton's Second Doctor.

So having been spoiled, I went into the episode feeling annoyed, because I really, really hate it when showrunners screw with the show's past and start retconning that history. And then I spent much of the episode frowning suspiciously at my TV, because I recognised Ruth from the headlines but couldn't figure out how she could be a past Doctor, plus her personality was all wrong to come before Hartnell, who was the most Gallifreyan of all the Doctors, and had to learn from scratch how to care about people different from himself.

All of which made it difficult for me to actually appreciate the episode, which is a shame, because I probably would have enjoyed it if I hadn't been spoiled - although I think it has structural problems, and I still really don't like how the show is handling the three companions, they spend far too much time just standing around watching the Doctor (or, in this episode, Jack Harkness!) talking and doing her thing, and they still have a had habit of talking like a hive mind.

But anyway, Jo Martin's Doctor once she became herself again, she I could believe was a proper Gallifreyan Time Lord who comes before Hartnell in the Doctor's timeline - a Doctor who hasn't yet learned to care about the wider universe, who hasn't yet learned how to be a hero. But the TARDIS...if she is supposed to come before Hartnell, the TARDIS can't be a police box yet, it just can't. Yet she can't fit in anywhere else in the sequence, there are no more gaps for retcons to be wedged into.

So I am confused. I like some of the theories above, though, about alternate universe/timeline Doctors.

I suppose we will learn more in time. But I am very wary of this development - I have learned from bitter experience that showrunners can't really be trusted when they start meddling with the show's lore.

On the bright side, I liked Jo Martin's Doctor! I liked her more than I like Whittaker, actually. Finally, New Who remembers that the Doctor can have a personality other than 'scatty motormouth'.

[libgirl2]

23 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I suppose we will learn more in time. But I am very wary of this development - I have learned from bitter experience that showrunners can't really be trusted when they start meddling with the show's lore.

On the bright side, I liked Jo Martin's Doctor! I liked her more than I like Whittaker, actually. Finally, New Who remembers that the Doctor can have a personality other than 'scatty motormouth'.

I found I like her better as the Doctor too! But, I agree, I don't want them to mess this up too much. Like you said, the TARDIS was not a police box until One ended up in the junkyard and set it as one. So she can't have come before Hartnell's Doctor. And if they try to sell us that, I will be very p-o'd. 

[DanaK]

I’m not entirely convinced, until we hear more, that we should be so focused on Ruth’s Tardis looking like our Tardis from the outside as a way to place her in the chronology. It may be misdirection or just done for shock value

[HauntedBathroom]

I have no faith that Chibnall will resolve any of the "IT'S AN ARC!! IT'S AN ARC!!!!" threads he's set up in the last 5 episodes. Season 11 was packed with episodes that ended when the characters wandered off camera, not with any explanation or resolution of their actions. He's probably just hoping that we'll have forgotten these details by the end of the season.

[DanaK]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/jo-martin-first-black-doctor-21373790

Per the Mirror, Chibnall says Ruth is not a phony Doctor or a trick or from a parallel  universe

[Affogato]

If Ruth escapes from Gallifrey prison by stealing the tardis and runs to earth perhaps she (Tardis) cloaks herself as a police box and then the device is broken. So before One? I haven’t seen all the available first season but it is a police box at the beginning, right? 
 

why they wouldn’t remember, I have no idea. 
 

‘you were so close to escaping, faithful companion’. Sounds like an actual gallifreyan job title. 
 

Barrowman was shot with shadows and often a lot of glare. I assume he’ll be back for the CYberman show. I

Edited January 28, 2020 by Affogato

[theschnauzers]

Keep in. Ind Chinall was a writer on the first series of Torchwood and the head writer for the second series. My own feeling has been that once Chibnall became the show runner for Doctor Who, it was a matter of time before Captain Jack returned to Who. At least Chibnall knows how to write for the character, which probably explains why he’s listed as the co-writer for this episode.

[Rhetorica]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/jo-martin-first-black-doctor-21373790

Per the Mirror, Chibnall says Ruth is not a phony Doctor or a trick or from a parallel  universe

The article also says, ”Jo Martin will take over the role from Jodie Whittaker.” under a picture if her...

[howiveaddict]

I find it funny that Ruth doctor was spending her time on earth, as a tourguide. And not a very successful one either.

Totally recognized John Barrowman's voice and squealed.  Good thing no one was around to hear me.

[angora]

A day later, and my brain's still exploding. I'm whirring with the possibilities of it all. I could mostly get behind the idea of the Nth Doctor being pre-One if it was somehow backtracked/mindwiped/split off into a parallel. In theory, if she left Gallifrey and her TARDIS got stuck as a police box, then the Time Lords forced her to regenerate at some point and wiped One's memory of his past self, he might have had some kind of lingering wisps of memory that led him to go down the same path. If this is going to tie to the Master and his "something was rotten in the state of Gallifrey" hints, it would make sense for her to be from before the beginning. But then, why would Eleven have been the one who was out of regenerations? That lends itself more to the idea that the Nth Doctor was undone somehow, although it could still follow that a "rebooted" One might subconsciously follow in her footsteps and run away to Earth.

If I were Thirteen, I'd have tried to poke more into where this Doctor seems to fall in the lineup. I could see her asking something like, "Who all have you been? Opera cape? Technicolor dreamcoat? Pinstripes?" Too early for us to get an answer on that, of course, but I'd have still liked to see her try - just have them get interrupted before the Nth Doctor can reply.

And of course, all this was in an episode that already had me screaming, "IT'S CAPTAIN JACK!!" as soon as I heard Barrowman's voice. Loved everything about this: kissing Graham under the impression that he was the Doctor, getting excited to find out the Doctor's a woman, digging all the companions despite being incredulous that there are three of them. So much fun all around, and I love that I had no idea! I was also totally surprised by the Sacha Dhawan Master reveal in the premiere. It makes me think back to "World Enough and Time," where they spoiled both

Spoiler

the Mondasian Cybermen and the John Simm Master

in the preview. It's so satisfying to be surprised!

Even though the companions didn't get a ton to do in this episode, they still came across pretty well to me. All three had some fun banter with Jack, both Yaz and Ryan got a few good moments in while helping the Doctor with the Judoon/fugitive search, and I'm so glad that the three of them got the Doctor to open up at the end (AND that the Doctor told them the truth!) While that scene still featured them more as "a unit of companions" rather than three people with individual relationships with the Doctor (which, I think, has kept any of them from seeming to really bond with her,) it was much more intimate than what we usually get.

[Chyromaniac]

If nothing else, I like the look of Ruth’s tardis- that was a really nice redress of that set.  But I really enjoyed this episode in general too.  I think they struck the right balance with the Judoon- played both as funny and frightening.  I’m curious to see what they do with the mysteries- hopefully they will pay off later.  Of course it’s always easier to set up these things than resolve them- but we’ll have to see.  And welcome back Jack- it’s great to see ties between the different eras of new Who.

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

If Ruth escapes from Gallifrey prison by stealing the tardis and runs to earth perhaps she (Tardis) cloaks herself as a police box and then the device is broken. So before One? I haven’t seen all the available first season but it is a police box at the beginning, right?

The TARDIS is already a police box when we first see it but it wasn't stuck as a police box until after the first episode. This is an exchange from episode two, Cave of Skulls, immediately after the Doctor's abduction of Ian and Barbara - the first time we ever see the TARDIS move:

Quote

DOCTOR: It's still a police box. Why hasn't it changed? Dear, dear, how very disturbing.
(The Doctor collects his rock samples, watched by the primitive man. Barbara comes across an animal skull in the sand)
BARBARA: What do you think it could be? Ian, look at this.
IAN: I don't know. It hasn't got any horns or antlers. Could be a horse. Could be anything. Incredible. A police box in the midst of...oh, it just doesn't make sense.
SUSAN: It should have changed. Wonder why it hasn't happened this time.
BARBARA: The ship, you mean?
SUSAN: Yes, it's been an Ionic column and a sedan chair.
BARBARA: Disguising itself wherever it goes.
SUSAN: Yes, that's right. But it hasn't happened this time. I wonder why not?

The dialogue is very clear - the Doctor and Susan have been travelling together for some time before they landed in London 1963 and the TARDIS changed every time. Only after leaving 1963 does it stop changing shape, remaining as a police box ever after (apart from that one episode in the 80s when Colin Baker's Doctor fixed the chameleon circuit, didn't like it, and turned it off again).

So...I am sure it was just done for shock value and for recognisability, but if this new Doctor is placed where it looks like she is placed, then it screws with the actual on-screen history of the Doctor and the TARDIS, and I resent that.

There are other anachronisms to resolve as well - I may not like it, but we did see Clara interact with the Doctor as a little boy, plus all the gymnastics Moffat went through to ensure that the 11th Doctor was the one who hit the regeneration limit, that all goes out of the window if there was yet another Doctor squeezed into the sequence before Hartnell.

It is possible that there may still be a good explanation, but I find that I don't trust that there will be, not after everything Moffat did to re-shape the history of the show in his own image. I have learned to be wary.

2 hours ago, angora said:

  Even though the companions didn't get a ton to do in this episode, they still came across pretty well to me. All three had some fun banter with Jack, both Yaz and Ryan got a few good moments in while helping the Doctor with the Judoon/fugitive search, and I'm so glad that the three of them got the Doctor to open up at the end (AND that the Doctor told them the truth!) While that scene still featured them more as "a unit of companions" rather than three people with individual relationships with the Doctor (which, I think, has kept any of them from seeming to really bond with her,) it was much more intimate than what we usually get.

I agree, but in that last line about none of them seeming to really bond with them, you've put your finger on a big part of why the companions keep bothering me - it is because although we haven't seen any real bonding, they all talk as if they are really close, but the relationship they claim doesn't feel real or earned because we haven't seen it. Any bonding that has taken place has been mostly off-screen.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Llywela

[DanaK]

Another thing I really loved in this episode was the reactions of the Judoon, especially the Captain. Their little huffs and puffs and shocked and puzzled reactions throughout were an absolute delight. Great animatronic and voice work 

ETA: Also, the shot of the lighthouse and the camera swirling around it as the Doctor steps outside at the top

BTW, RuthDoc didn’t say she didn’t recognize the sonic, just that someone smart didn’t need it and she was pretty disdainful of it. So don’t try to place her just because of that

Edited January 28, 2020 by DanaK

[Bruinsfan]

I wonder if "Ruth" could be a temporal anomaly along the lines of the Valeyard, a potential regeneration of the Doctor's that has somehow become tangible despite not being a definite future (or past) self...

[John Potts]

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

There are other anachronisms to resolve as well - I may not like it, but we did see Clara interact with the Doctor as a little boy, plus all the gymnastics Moffat went through to ensure that the 11th Doctor was the one who hit the regeneration limit, that all goes out of the window if there was yet another Doctor squeezed into the sequence before Hartnell.

I thought about that, but the Time Lords can grant additional Regenerations. So if you'd been working for the CIA for 7 Regenerations and then they agree to let you leave if you get Mindwiped (and maybe on condition you do them the occasional job...) then they'd probably "fill out" your set of Regenerations or you'd wonder where the other 7 went.

(That doesn't mean that's the right answer, but it is an answer)

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

I thought about that, but the Time Lords can grant additional Regenerations. So if you'd been working for the CIA for 7 Regenerations and then they agree to let you leave if you get Mindwiped (and maybe on condition you do them the occasional job...) then they'd probably "fill out" your set of Regenerations or you'd wonder where the other 7 went.

(That doesn't mean that's the right answer, but it is an answer)

True that. I'm intrigued. I'm very, very wary, because this show has taught me not to trust its showrunners further than I can spit when they start messing with stuff like this, but I am definitely intrigued to know where this is going!

I just really wish I hadn't had those Google headlines screaming the shock twist at me before I had a chance to see the episode, because the spoiler definitely spoiled my viewing experience.

[libgirl2]

20 hours ago, Llywela said:

The dialogue is very clear - the Doctor and Susan have been travelling together for some time before they landed in London 1963 and the TARDIS changed every time. Only after leaving 1963 does it stop changing shape, remaining as a police box ever after (apart from that one episode in the 80s when Colin Baker's Doctor fixed the chameleon circuit, didn't like it, and turned it off again).

 

that was hysterical!

20 hours ago, Llywela said:

So...I am sure it was just done for shock value and for recognisability, but if this new Doctor is placed where it looks like she is placed, then it screws with the actual on-screen history of the Doctor and the TARDIS, and I resent that.

 

I don't want her to be before Hartnell. It takes away from the honor he has for being our first Doctor...The leader. I'd rather, if she truly is the Doctor, be a later regeneration.

[UNOSEZ]

I don't know enough about who history but so many ppl seem hard pressed to place Ruth before this incarnation of the doctor I assumed she's from the future.. But if gallifrey is gone already I guess that doesn't totally work either... And Gather seemed to be surprised.. So I dunno.. But I have enjoyed it 

[taanja]

OMG! Late to the game but wow! I loved it! Captain Jack! Whooo weeeee! I loved that big fat sloppy kiss he gave Graham cuz he thought he was the Doctor! haha! 

I loved all the Timey Whimey convoluted mess of the two Doctors meeting and not knowing one another. THAT^^^ is classic Doctor Who!

The present companions haven't met Cybermen or Daleks yet? Just wait!

Anyway I really enjoyed this episode. Totally felt like True Doctor Who from beginning to end! 

[libgirl2]

16 minutes ago, taanja said:

OMG! Late to the game but wow! I loved it! Captain Jack! Whooo weeeee! I loved that big fat sloppy kiss he gave Graham cuz he thought he was the Doctor! haha! 

I loved all the Timey Whimey convoluted mess of the two Doctors meeting and not knowing one another. THAT^^^ is classic Doctor Who!

The present companions haven't met Cybermen or Daleks yet? Just wait!

Anyway I really enjoyed this episode. Totally felt like True Doctor Who from beginning to end! 

I am looking forward to them meeting the Cybermen. I think its a right of initiation when they meet them or the Daleks. As the saying goes... s--- gets real! 

Edited January 28, 2020 by libgirl2

[DanaK]

I previously decided after the season premiere to wait to post the ratings until the finals were in, but I'll post some early ones for this episode

Overnights were 4.21 million viewers, up from 4.04 million from the previous week (Tesla) and 4.19 million the week before that (Orphan 55). There was a soccer game before the show, but it was over and into the analysis by the time the episode started.

The Appreciation Index score was 83, up from 79 from the previous week (the Tesla episode) and 77 from the episode before that (Orphan 55). It was in fact a bit higher than the 2 part season premiere (which both had 82)

17 minutes ago, taanja said:

The present companions haven't met Cybermen or Daleks yet? Just wait!

They met one Dalek in the 2019 Resolution special

Edited January 28, 2020 by DanaK

[Eulipian 5k]

Lee and Gat are Gallifreyan but pointedly, not Time Lords. The "Contact" was one sided; Gat thought it was  "sorcery". It appears that the Lee/Ruth are analogs ("negatives" for pre-millenials) of Martha Jones/John Smith. Lee being the "faithful companion" like Martha. BUT, Ruth called herself "a Time Traveler ". Did she or anyone, except Gat, refer to Ruth as a Time Lord? - "You may be the Doctor but you're not the Time Lord Doctor - Snap!"

Is Ruth from before the Time Lord class was imposed on Gallifrey? (I'm with Bill Potts, it's Gallifreyan class warfare, lol)

[libgirl2]

42 minutes ago, DanaK said:

They met one Dalek in the 2019 Resolution special

They need to meet more than one! 

Edited January 28, 2020 by libgirl2

[Eulipian 5k]

Heh, When I saw the "have a nice day" cheery Tour Guide I felt "Oh yeah, Monty Python's giant foot will take this one by the next commercial"

BUT, they already fridged Grace, and Barton's mother, so I was hoping they wouldn't dare.

BUT to see the Doctor Ruth rockin' the kente cloth, and going 'and I'm all out of bubblegum' on the Judoon... priceless.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Lee and Gat are Gallifreyan but pointedly, not Time Lords. The "Contact" was one sided; Gat thought it was  "sorcery". It appears that the Lee/Ruth are analogs ("negatives" for pre-millenials) of Martha Jones/John Smith. Lee being the "faithful companion" like Martha. BUT, Ruth called herself "a Time Traveler ". Did she or anyone, except Gat, refer to Ruth as a Time Lord? - "You may be the Doctor but you're not the Time Lord Doctor - Snap!"

Is Ruth from before the Time Lord class was imposed on Gallifrey? (I'm with Bill Potts, it's Gallifreyan class warfare, lol)

I'm leaning toward this sort of theory too - like Chibnall's own version of the Cartmel masterplan, perhaps? Delving deep into Gallifreyan pre-history makes sense of what we saw on-screen...except for the dratted TARDIS, which I strongly suspect was done purely so we'd recognise it, rather than because it makes chronological sense.

Either that or some kind of season 6b deal? But that doesn't make sense either for a whole bunch of other reasons.

So, nice one, Chibnall, you've definitely got us all guessing! The solution to the mystery had better be a good one - I spent way too much of Moffat's reign fuming at my TV, please don't make me go there again, I've been enjoying being able to enjoy the show again!

I still really like the Ruth!Doctor, though - as with Hurt, I want her as a 'real' Doctor, not just a guest! Give me a whole season of her!

[Lokiberry]

Could this be the Series 6B theory? At the end of series 6 the Time Lords grab the second Doctor, send his companions back to their own time, and sentence him to forced regeneration and exile on Earth. We never see the regeneration onscreen. Series 7 starts with the third Doctor stumbling out of his TARDIS and passing out . The theory goes that maybe the Time Lords made Two work for them for awhile before regenerating him and dumping him on Earth. 

Isn't it possible that during  this time, Two naturally regenerated into Doctor Ruth (I'm totally calling her that. I don't care), she escaped from them, they eventually found her, made her regenerate into Three,  wiped his memory of the whole thing (Three had some of his memories erased), added  another regeneration so no one would know what they'd been up to, and then exiled him on Earth?

ETA: I see you guys have been thinking about 6B already. Anyway, I think it makes more sense than a variation of the Cartmel Masterplan, and it cause the least amount of disruption to established facts.

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Lokiberry