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S01.E08: A God Walks into Abar

formerlyfreedom

By formerlyfreedom
in Watchmen [V]

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WatchrTina

WatchrTina

This is a public service  announcement.  If you stopped watching when the credits started you MISSED an important scene. There was a long, post-credit scene of Veidt in his prison on Europa.

Having said that . . . damn this show is mind-trippy.  But then, so is the original graphic novel.  Whenever you are dealing with Dr. Manhattan the past, present and future are all happening at the same time (for him) and that is just . . . mind-trippy. 

So . . . do we really think Dr. Manhattan is dead?  Because if so, that kind of sucks. I don't think he's dead . . . just unavailable to the plot.  For a while.

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AimingforYoko

AimingforYoko

Isn't the ep title "God Walks into Abar"?

Time shenanigans always make for mindfuck eps. I can see where Angela would lose her shit. Nice (and convenient) that Veidt had a solution ready to go. I wonder why Jon never made the leap with Laurie?

So are Will and Lady Trieu going to save the day? Is Veidt? A combination?

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mac123x

mac123x

(edited)

That was so good!

1.  Dr. Manhattan POV episode, so naturally we experience it non-linearly

2,  Yahya Abdul-Mateen full frontal.

3.  Open with Rhapsody in Blue, followed by the Blue Danube Waltz.  I'm pretty sure some of the other songs featured "blue" in the title

4.  Veidt isn't in prison, other than the prison of paradise.  He went voluntarily then realized what a nightmare it actually is.  Only seven candles, so I assume he's still got a lot more shenanigans until he catches up to our current events.

5.  Nice ontological paradox with Judd and the Klan robe.

Some of the camera work was weird, like off-centered characters, and focusing on Dr. M's hands or necktie.  I guess it's in keeping with the "he sees the world differently" theme but it was jarring.  Some of the FX were shockingly bad too, like Calhattan walking on the pool.

Edited by mac123x
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WatchrTina

WatchrTina

2 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

So are Will and Lady Trieu going to save the day? Is Veidt?

Isn't Veidt stuck on Europa?  He may be able to dig out of his cell with the horseshoe he found baked in his cake but that's not going to get him back to earth.

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kay1864

kay1864

(edited)

 Excellent allusions to 2001: a space Odyssey (and 2010, the sequel)

“It’s 1968, and I am a black monolith. It’s 1984, and I am once again a black monolith, on the surface of Europa“

Wonder why they didn’t show Jon’s face?

And what are Veidt’s 8 million children?

Edited by kay1864
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Amethyst

Amethyst

This episode was wild.  Glad I watched after the credits.  

Angela may have inadvertently started things, but didn't Judd have the Klan hood in his closet regardless?

Liked seeing Cal go full Manhattan.  It was confusing from the perspectives, but they made it work.  And nice full frontal, back and everything else.  😉

So the Warden is Adam.  I wonder who Eve is.

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ShellsandCheese

ShellsandCheese

That was such a good episode. And it was mostly comprised of two people talking in a bar. I loved Adrian's joke about appropriation - and how he instantly knew that Cal was Jon. I am also intrigued by the first Mr. Phillips. Are all of the clones trying to help Veidt break free? Are they slowly evolving? Or is it just "Adam"?

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Kirbyrun

Kirbyrun

6 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

And what are Veidt’s 8 million children?

Pretty sure he said 8 billion, meaning the population of earth, which he saved from nuclear annihilation and therefore, in true Adrian fashion, thinks of as his children. 
 

Loved this ep. Even Jon’s memory glitch (he left Janey Slater’s watch in the Intrinsic Field Chamber, not his own) couldn’t wreck it for this continuity nerd. 🙂

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kay1864

kay1864

10 minutes ago, Kirbyrun said:

Pretty sure he said 8 billion, meaning the population of earth, which he saved from nuclear annihilation and therefore, in true Adrian fashion, thinks of as his children. 
 

Loved this ep. Even Jon’s memory glitch (he left Janey Slater’s watch in the Intrinsic Field Chamber, not his own) couldn’t wreck it for this continuity nerd. 🙂

Just rewatched the scene. Definitely ‘million‘.

 However THIS continuity nerd missed that he said his own watch. Tsk, show. 

 Wonder why Jon didn’t kill all of the Kalvary?

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kay1864

kay1864

(edited)

 I just remembered this line from the graphic novel, when Angela talked about the puppeteer:

Manhattan: “We’re all puppets, Laurie. I’m just a puppet who can see the strings.”

Edited by kay1864
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mac123x

mac123x

1 hour ago, Amethyst said:

Angela may have inadvertently started things, but didn't Judd have the Klan hood in his closet regardless?

I think Angela might have inadvertently saved the world (or whatever) by feeding info to her grandfather.  Senator Keene's plot to capture / kill / become Dr. Manhattan was already in motion, so all Angela accomplished was getting Judd killed, which brought Laurie to Tulsa, and (maybe) got Lady Trieu in an alliance with her grandfather.

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Cardie

Cardie

Lindelof’s “don’t say I never give you answers” episode. I liked that Angela asks if Jon is like Zeus, assuming a mortal form to seduce human women; one of those women was ... Europa.

I wonder if Judd was not 7th Kav after all.

Did anyone recognize the actor whose voice was used for pre-Cal Dr.Manhattan?

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ProudMary

ProudMary

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

So . . . do we really think Dr. Manhattan is dead?  Because if so, that kind of sucks. I don't think he's dead . . . just unavailable to the plot.  For a while.

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

Great episode. I was rooting for Calhattan, eventhough I knew what he said would come to pass. I hope he is not dead though.

He's not dead; at least not yet. We already know that the smarmy Senator wants Dr. Manhattan's powers transferred to him.  It was then explained by Cal/Jon in the episode.

Calhattan:  They're already here. The 7th Kavalry. They're in a truck parked across the street.  On the back of the truck is a tacyonic cannon which they will use to involuntarily teleport me and then destroy me.

So, he's been teleported but not yet destroyed.

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bobbyjoe

bobbyjoe

Quote

Waffles.  Was Jon trying to make some power-bequeathing magic waffles? Will we get a blue Sister Night?

Yeah, I'm guessing Dr. Manhattan producing the egg and telling Angela about how his powers could be transferred wasn't just a throwaway moment.  And he also told her she needed to see him walking on water, which I'm guessing means she's going to need to do that at some point if she's the power recipient.

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Dev F

Dev F

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

I wonder if Judd was not 7th Kav after all.

Me too. And for me that's an exciting possibility, because as I've mentioned in some of the earlier episode threads, the series wouldn't feel much like the original Watchmen if it ended up with a straightforward "evil racists vs. heroic multicultural progressives" dynamic. Anything that complicates the respective sides of the showdown would be greatly appreciated.

Quote

Did anyone recognize the actor whose voice was used for pre-Cal Dr.Manhattan?

I think it was still the voice of Yahya Abdul-Mateen II, just with some electronic tinkering in postproduction.

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ruby24

ruby24

(edited)

Wait, why did he not go back to his real face when Angela pulled him out? I don't get it. 

Are they trying to say he's not Jon Osterman anymore, that he really is this Cal guy now? That I don't like.

Also, I disagree SO HARD with the idea that if someone loses their entire memory they are still the same person. No, they ARE NOT. She did not spend ten years with Dr. Manhattan, she spent it with this Cal guy. Jon doesn't even remember any of those years.

Edited by ruby24
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link417

link417

I also want to know what happened to the first Ms. Crookshanks. I guess that winking prosecutor is the one who baked the horseshoe into the cake.

Someone mentioned that one of the tapes from Angela’s Vietnam flashback was “Fogdancing,” and that was the name of the book Veidt was reading in prison; I wonder what the significance of that is.

My first thought was that Lady Trieu is going to help Veidt get back to Earth, so they can both “save humanity,” but how would they have communicated? However, she was the one who told Veidt that Manhattan wasn’t on Mars after all, so I suppose she has her ways of finding people.

Veidt said it’s not the 80s anymore, but he’s dressed like a keytar player from 1989? Okay, show.

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

After mainly being in the background for this show, Yahya Abdul-Mateen II really got to shine here (along with Regina King, but that goes without saying.)  I really enjoyed his take on Dr. Manhattan, which I was curious about since; despite the film's flaws; Billy Crudup's version was one of the things I thought worked.  But I thought Yahya made it his own and really stood out opposite of some heavy-hitters like King, Jeremy Irons, and Louis Gossett Jr.

Even though it was doomed, the Angela/Manhattan love story was really well done, and both of the actors nailed those aspects as well.  Although, having a husband/boyfriend who can look into multiple timelines at the same time and see both the past and future as well, would certainly be frustrating in a partner!  Although, I was kind of curious to see how Dr. Manhattan's waffles would have turned out...

Angela might have inadvertently been the starting point of Judd's death by mentioning his name to her grandfather through Manhattan?  Crazy!

Love that Veidt's "prison" was actually a paradise that Manhattan created (with Mr. Phillips and Mrs. Crookshanks serving as his version of "Adam & Eve", based off a real-life couple who was kind to him), and Veidt initially wanted to be there, but it became a case of "be careful what you wish for."  Despite an obviously distinguished and award-winning career, this honestly might be some of the most interesting stuff Jeremy Irons has done: at least recently.

I have no idea how this will all end next week, but I'm looking forward to it!  

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Affogato

Affogato

So Veidt is the snake in Eden and God deliberately put him there. The innocents are learning so much. 🎂 baking things into cakes.  The law! Punishment and humiliation. Oh, you devil. maybe by the time himans go there they will have some defenses 

it did seem to take a lot to orchestrate the rains of small squid, but perhaps there is an automated setting. Maybe Veidt was just enjoying running around pulling the levers. 

Calhattan says the pool is important. Or just important he is seen walking on the pool? Maybe he left some part of his essence in the pool, which was glowy. Is it the key to resuscitating him? Will angela get pregnant swimming in it? Or is it just some underwater pool lights?

this death, as long as the world does not go with it, is the best thing Manhattan could hope for. What an awful fate he has always had. I do hope Cal survives this but I think I hope Manhattan doesn’t.  For all concerned. 

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DearEvette

DearEvette

I.... really don't have much to say about this episode.  It is so damned mind trippy.  Just when I think the show can't pull off anything else, it zigs and pulls off something even better.

I do have to say the multiple timeline thing, the way the episode played with it and used it was simply excellent.  Also time paradox done well. 

I do wonder about Angela's reluctance to show Jon Cal's body in the morgue.  He was so obviously her first choice and yet she had to be prodded to reveal him.  Is it because she didn't want a white man literally wearing black face?  It was her 'elegant solution' in the first place, so maybe subconsciously she always wanted him to wear Cal's body because but was conflicted on many other levels?

I agree Yayha Abdul-Mateen really brought it.  Once he went all full Manhattan, I saw nothing of Cal in him, except the face.  And even then he blanked so well.

And finally, given that we've seen a couple of facsimiles of  Manhattan's penis, I am gratified they at least they let us see the real thing.  Heh.

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

This is a public service  announcement.  If you stopped watching when the credits started you MISSED an important scene. There was a long, post-credit scene of Veidt in his prison on Europa.

Thanks for the warning! I stopped the episode when the credits started rolling and then read your comment. Luckily I hadn't deleted the episode yet so I was able to go back and watch the last scene.

The one thing I wish they had shown us was how Angela went from rejecting Manhattan repeatedly at the bar to giving in to having dinner with him the next night. Was it just curiosity that made her show up the following night?

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AimingforYoko

AimingforYoko

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

And finally, given that we've seen a couple of facsimiles of  Manhattan's penis, I am gratified they at least they let us see the real thing.  Heh.

According to a BTS, prosthetic. And the male half of the audience breathes a small sigh of relief.

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ShellsandCheese

ShellsandCheese

8 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

Yeah, I'm guessing Dr. Manhattan producing the egg and telling Angela about how his powers could be transferred wasn't just a throwaway moment.  And he also told her she needed to see him walking on water, which I'm guessing means she's going to need to do that at some point if she's the power recipient.

Spoiler

I think Topher is going to get his powers. I feel like the show has been leading up to it. I think Angela will see him walking on water and she’ll know. 

See my theory above about who I think will be the next Dr. Manhattan. 

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AnimeMania

AnimeMania

10 hours ago, Cardie said:

I wonder if Judd was not 7th Kav after all.

I guess no one believes that Judd's wife, Jane was the 7th K member, she built the secret compartment and the KKKlan robe was hers. Was there women's clothes in the closet? I am sure there are women's closets that their husband have never stepped a foot into. Maybe that trapdoor was under Judd's favorite chair and Jane had planned to use it on Judd if he ever figured out she was 7th K.

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TiffanyNichelle

TiffanyNichelle

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I do wonder about Angela's reluctance to show Jon Cal's body in the morgue.  He was so obviously her first choice and yet she had to be prodded to reveal him.  Is it because she didn't want a white man literally wearing black face?  It was her 'elegant solution' in the first place, so maybe subconsciously she always wanted him to wear Cal's body because but was conflicted on many other levels?

That could be it and it goes well with Adrian pointing out to Manhattan that the cultural appropriation of him stealing a black man's face was no longer ok. Because even if he's now blue, he still started life as a white man and that just doesn't go away even though he's evolved into Dr. Manhattan. 

Knowing that he sees all time, he had to know that Adrian would get sick of paradise (he doesn't want to live in it, he wants to "create" it) and so Manhattan put into the minds of the Phillips and Crookshanks to continuously offer Adrian the horseshoe along with the cake. It sets up this repeated nonsense that annoys Adrian so much until he finally realizes he needs it to escape. 

I think Adrian is Lady Trieu's father and that he's been back on Earth for a while. He got sick of Europa very early and has already escaped. 

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AnimeMania

AnimeMania

1 minute ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

I think Adrian is Lady Trieu's father and that he's been back on Earth for a while. He got sick of Europa very early and has already escaped. 

The statue of Adrian in Lady Trieu's compound, does the facial expressions change? Is it a storage vessel for Adrian until she can create or find him a suitable new body.

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ShellsandCheese

ShellsandCheese

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Wait, why did he not go back to his real face when Angela pulled him out? I don't get it. 

Are they trying to say he's not Jon Osterman anymore, that he really is this Cal guy now? That I don't like.

Also, I disagree SO HARD with the idea that if someone loses their entire memory they are still the same person. No, they ARE NOT. She did not spend ten years with Dr. Manhattan, she spent it with this Cal guy. Jon doesn't even remember any of those years.

But she didn't spend it with Cal either. Cal was just a body who's visage Dr. Manhattan took on. It wasn't like Dr. Manhattan put his consciousness into a sentient being. He literally just copied a dead persons physical appearance. She spent her time with some version of Jon.

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DearEvette

DearEvette

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

I guess no one believes that Judd's wife, Jane was the 7th K member, she built the secret compartment and the KKKlan robe was hers. Was there women's clothes in the closet? I am sure there are women's closets that their husband have never stepped a foot into. Maybe that trapdoor was under Judd's favorite chair and Jane had planned to use it on Judd if he ever figured out she was 7th K.

Last week, tho, when Angela was living through HJ's memories, I could swear Judd mentioned it was his grandfather's suit and he defended having it as part of his heritage?  Trying to convince HJ that he wasn't a racist but preserving his family's history? 

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Affogato

Affogato

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Wait, why did he not go back to his real face when Angela pulled him out? I don't get it. 

Are they trying to say he's not Jon Osterman anymore, that he really is this Cal guy now? That I don't like.

Also, I disagree SO HARD with the idea that if someone loses their entire memory they are still the same person. No, they ARE NOT. She did not spend ten years with Dr. Manhattan, she spent it with this Cal guy. Jon doesn't even remember any of those years.

He does say that Judd was nowhere and then he was born .... nowhere, again. Odd child care but very Doctor Manhattan.  He has that lng talk with Laurie and doesn’t mention it. His powers are there as a reflex. That and the many comments that ‘Cal is off’ indicate to me that this was a continuing personality. 

jon probably remembers those years now. 
 

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kay1864

kay1864

5 hours ago, Superclam said:
Quote

I think it was still the voice of Yahya Abdul-Mateen II, just with some electronic tinkering in postproduction.

Yes, this was confirmed by YA-MII in an interview. I was surprised. 

Here's the interview, BTW: https://ew.com/tv/2019/12/08/watchmen-dr-manhattan-yahya-abdul-mateen-ii/

To clarify:  the article confirms it was Abdul-Mateen II's voice, but nothing about electronic tinkering.

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kay1864

kay1864

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The one thing I wish they had shown us was how Angela went from rejecting Manhattan repeatedly at the bar to giving in to having dinner with him the next night. Was it just curiosity that made her show up the following night?

I thought they did show us.  After her remark about why he would go into a relationship knowing that it ends in tragedy, he replies “Don’t all of them?”  At that point she figures Why not.

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kay1864

kay1864

(edited)

Unanswered questions:

  1. Is Manhattan dead, or just transported?
  2. Why didn't they show Jon's face?
  3. What are Veidt's 8 million children?
  4. Where is Eve?
  5. Why Jon didn’t kill all of the Kavalry?
  6. Was Judd 7th Kavalry, or was it Jane, his wife?
  7. What did Adrian mean by “a little elephant told me”?

Also, the Peteypedia entry on Fogdancing is quite interesting:  https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia

Edited by kay1864
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Mr. Sparkle

Mr. Sparkle

(edited)
24 minutes ago, kay1864 said:
  • Why didn't they show Jon's face?

I got the feeling that not showing Jon's face was for dramatic purposes only. Just to keep the mystery about the character. 

Does the 8 million refer to the # of people killed in 1985? 8 million is also traditionally listed as the population of NYC. 

The other ones I can only guess. 

Edited by Superclam
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Dev F

Dev F

53 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

What are Veidt's 8 million children?

It's just a typo in the subtitles. Veidt actually says "my children, all eight billion of them" -- as in, the whole population of Earth is crying out for his return.

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link417

link417

55 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

What are Veidt's 8 million children?

What did Adrian mean by “a little elephant told me”?

 I just rewatched the scene, Veidt definitely said “8 billion” children, as in, humanity.

With all the elephant imagery surrounding Lady Trieu (actual elephant at her lab, company logo is a stylized elephant head, the Lady Trieu of legend rode an elephant), I took that to mean Trieu told him. Especially since there is good reason to think she is his daughter.

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