S03.E08: A Jewish Girl Walks Into the Apollo...

[smartymarty]

Quote

I, personally, liked that Midge got fired. She's had few, if any, consequences for any of her actions during the entire run of the series. This will help her recognize there are some boundaries for what she can use as fodder for her comedy. It should be a growth experience by making her actually apply some discipline and thought to not only what is funny, but what kind of fallout she's willing to accept and what kind of pain she's willing to inflict. Growth experiences are rarely comfortable.

Ironic that she told Benjamin she couldn't marry him because he would become fodder for her jokes, but she then got fired because she made Shy the fodder (and went too far) for her jokes.

So Midge learned about discrimination against blacks AND against homosexuals all in one season. Possibly having grown up in NYC, she didn't experience much discrimination against Jews to be aware of other groups discriminated against. She was even surprised at her treatment as a woman comic.

Count me as one person who likes Joel. He's sensitive, kind, and one of the few characters not made into a cartoon. I don't like Mei because she's too one-note and I don't see the chemistry. I actually do see chemistry between Joel and Midge though, or at least the friendship.

I sure hope that the writers don't make Abe's theater critic salary high enough to pay Midge's mortgage. Publishing does not pay.

1 hour ago, pasdetrois said:

Also, wouldn't Reggie have dressed Midge down immediately after her performance?

I agree. That seemed strange. He was right backstage.

 

On 12/28/2019 at 10:29 PM, Scarlett45 said:

God Midge. I was screaming at the tv the entire time for her to please stop!

My husband was laughing at the jokes while I was cringing inside. The sandwich jokes were great, though, particularly when she took food out of the cuff of her dress. That the black community valued their food was an astute observation of her.

[Scarlett45]

33 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

My husband was laughing at the jokes while I was cringing inside. The sandwich jokes were great, though, particularly when she took food out of the cuff of her dress. That the black community valued their food was an astute observation of her.

Yes that part was funny, but the rest of it was like watching a train wreck, and overshadowed the bits about the food. 

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

So Midge learned about discrimination against blacks AND against homosexuals all in one season. Possibly having grown up in NYC, she didn't experience much discrimination against Jews to be aware of other groups discriminated against. She was even surprised at her treatment as a woman comic.

She went to Bryn Mawr, no?  It's hard for me to believe she never encountered anti-Semitic  discrimination at a Seven Sisters school in the 1950s.  Heck, even if she didn't encounter it, I wouldn't believe for a moment she never saw Gentleman's Agreement.   

[smartymarty]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

She went to Bryn Mawr, no? 

All women. And I wouldn't be surprised if the school made sure that its Jewish students roomed together, so as to not upset the WASPs.

I have no idea, but most old movies that I saw growing up in the 1970s were broadcast on PBS. Gentleman's Agreement is 1947. Midge would have been too young to have seen it in the theater. Would NYC theaters re-run it in the late 1950s? I kind of doubt it would have been on TV, but again, before my time. (It is running on TCM this weekend though -- I've never seen it but have it set to record. Thank you!)

Edited December 30, 2019 by smartymarty
ETA: looked up Gentleman's Agreement.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

Gentleman's Agreement is 1947. Midge would have been too young to have seen it in the theater.

Why would she have been too young?  I don't know how old Midge is supposed to be, but if she's close to Rachel Brosnahan's age, she would have been 16 or 17 in 1947. 

[shapeshifter]

On 12/28/2019 at 9:29 PM, Scarlett45 said:

“Friends of Dorothy” was THE PHRASE to say a man was gay on the sly. 

I didn’t know that. But then, in the 60s, I thought Liberacé was literally “just eccentric.” And Elton John too in the 70s. I was 17 when The Kinks’ song about “Lola” was popular. I was confused by it.

But I got the impression that when Midge was on the boat with Shy that she did clearly understand he was telling her he was gay —not “eccentric.” And he was also clear it was secret.

Does Midge figure that there’s an unwritten rule that there are no secrets in comedy? Or does she just have no self control when it comes to making jokes? 
Not that those 2 things are necessarily mutually exclusive. 
 

 

 

[Old Man Neil]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I didn’t know that. But then, in the 60s, I thought Liberacé was literally “just eccentric.” And Elton John too in the 70s. I was 17 when The Kinks’ song about “Lola” was popular. I was confused by it.

But I got the impression that when Midge was on the boat with Shy that she did clearly understand he was telling her he was gay —not “eccentric.” And he was also clear it was secret.

Does Midge figure that there’s an unwritten rule that there are no secrets in comedy? Or does she just have no self control when it comes to making jokes? 

I don't think Midge had much of an idea what she was doing other than trying to be funny. I'm not even entirely sure she knew that he was gay even after he sort of told her on the boat. The way it's written, even his employees on tour, his band, his singers, don't know. They aren't talking about him being late because he's shacking up with his latest boy toy. And the singers seem to think of him as a problematic boyfriend, rather than someone who has no real interest in them. If they don't know what's going on, how the hell is Midge supposed to understand the implications of what she's saying. And the Apollo audience was eating it up. 

In my opinion, it's just sloppy writing. At the airport, Susie comes to the sudden realization of what's going on because Reggie refers to Judy Garland's slippers, but if she's hip enough to know that as code she's hip enough to know Shy's secret from the start. It really doesn't make sense. 

I think among the show business crowd on tour, Shy's orientation would have been common knowledge. Reggie would have taken Midge aside at the start and explained the situation and told her to keep it to herself.  

 

 

 

[Prower]

On 12/29/2019 at 4:29 AM, Scarlett45 said:

“Friends of Dorothy” was THE PHRASE to say a man was gay on the sly.

It was the phrase gay men identified themselves with to each other, specifically because it was not known to your average Joe. So accidentally telling a straight guy that you were "a friend of Dorothies" would only get you a bewildered look or a "do you mean Dorothy so-and-so?" instead of a lynching if you told them that you were a homosexual.

Like I wrote before, even the NIS was too dense to figure it out, as late as the 80s.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Prower

[Scarlett45]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But I got the impression that when Midge was on the boat with Shy that she did clearly understand he was telling her he was gay —not “eccentric.” And he was also clear it was secret.

I agree with you. I think when Midge asked him “how could a woman do this to you?” And he looked at her, she FINALLY got that he didn’t bring a woman back for sex but a man. A man, to his boat for sex and he was robbed/physically assaulted by said person. Midge lives in an insular world but it was explicitly laid out for her, by Shy what happened and that no one could be told.  

[SailorGirl]

On 12/27/2019 at 4:13 PM, Kromm said:

His final years in total was a super dark progression of him not only getting in bigger and bigger legal trouble, but also being unable to work anywhere. It's pretty much the story of everyone abandoning him.  And arguably rightfully, since he was a drugged up incoherent mess. 

So . . . because he had demons people were right to abandon him? Wow.

[kathe5133]

2 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

So . . . because he had demons people were right to abandon him? Wow.

"Demons" is putting it mildly.  He was totally debauched!  He'd been on drugs (speed and heroin) on and off since the mid 50's.  I don't blame anyone for cutting him loose.  You can only help people so much, and then you need to remove yourself from a bad situation.  Maisel is fiction, and therefore the portrayal of the "Lenny Bruce" character is fiction as well.  The real guy broke the law in many other ways besides using drugs.  He was kind of a low life.  

[Kenzie]

19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But then, in the 60s, I thought Liberacé was literally “just eccentric.”

I remember watching a Liberace special with my mom in the early '70's. The stage drapes opened, he came swanning out, smiling ear-to-ear, fingers bejeweled, hair in a pompadour and stopped center stage and twirled and twirled - his white fur cape flying open to reveal the silver lame' and sequin lining.

My mother's only comment, "I wonder a little bit about him sometimes." I'm pretty sure she thought he was just an eccentric "show-biz" type.

[Penman61]

I hate to defend the showrunners' capacity for complexity and nuance (didn't we just have baby genital mutilation as an entire punchline sequence a few episodes ago?), but I see Midge's set on Shy like this:

1. Midge definitely did not consciously think she was making gay-themed jokes about Shy, let alone "outing" him (not a social concept in 1960; though there were millions of closets, virtually no one was out). As others have pointed out, Midge was directed to do some Shy-based comedy, and so she did, basically on the theme of "Behind the scenes, Shy is really a spoiled cosseted peacock star," and not "Shy can suck a golf ball through a garden hose and is mighty light in the loafers, if you know what I mean [wink]."
2. Shy and Reggie are justifiably paranoid about ANY suggestion that Shy is gay, so they both--or at least, Reggie, as far as we're shown--over-react at this depiction of Shy because, while they aren't explicit, the jokes taken altogether are enough to trigger their paranoia. The audience's reaction is key here, and we don't get shots of a favorite being insulted; we get laughing reaction shots of "Oh, that sounds like him, he's so spoiled, but he's OURS!"

So these two things converge: Midge's unconscious oversharing about Shy and the reception of that oversharing by someone attuned to attacks for purposes of professional (and personal) survival. 

In other words, I can see both Midge's and Reggie's POVs here. Which would be some decent writing, actually. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Penman61

[Old Man Neil]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

So these two things converge: Midge's unconscious oversharing about Shy and the reception of that oversharing by someone attuned to attacks for purposes of professional (and personal) survival. 

In other words, I can see both Midge's and Reggie's POVs here. Which would be some decent writing, actually. 

Great post. I'm not sure I agree about the writing though, for reasons I mentioned earlier. Namely that the writers would have us believe that his entourage isn't in on the secret for the entire plot line to work. The other reason I question the writing is that Shy Baldwin is presented as a stereotypical effeminate gay guy, whereas Johnny Mathis was a champion athlete. Ignoring that side of him made it easier for them to portray him as a victim and make his teary confession to Midge. In my opinion, they missed an opportunity for a more complex portrayal. 

[kwnyc]

Quote

At the airport, Susie comes to the sudden realization of what's going on because Reggie refers to Judy Garland's slippers, but if she's hip enough to know that as code she's hip enough to know Shy's secret from the start. It really doesn't make sense.  

But if Susie is gay (which I think she is, and they NEVER give us anything about that) she might have picked up on it and not mentioned it to Midge. I also agree that if the band/singers had been with Shy for awhile, they probably knew and also knew they'd be fired if they ever mentioned it. 

[Psalm11]

Quote

Count me as one person who likes Joel. He's sensitive, kind, and one of the few characters not made into a cartoon. I don't like Mei because she's too one-note and I don't see the chemistry. I actually do see chemistry between Joel and Midge though, or at least the friendship.

Count me two/too! Joel readily admits he blew up his own near-perfect life. I for one can appreciate a man who is remorseful enough to accept blame and resourceful enough to try to make amends. His Achilles heel is that he's attracted to type A women. Even his friend Archie points this out (can't remember which episode). Here's hoping Joel's ego will mature enough to handle "boss" women. Fingers crossed cause I like them together (Joel and Midge) . Will accept Joel and Mei as second choice.  Or, in a perfect world....Joel + Midge, Mei + Dr. Benjamin.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Psalm11

[Clanstarling]

On 12/31/2019 at 3:40 PM, Old Man Neil said:

Great post. I'm not sure I agree about the writing though, for reasons I mentioned earlier. Namely that the writers would have us believe that his entourage isn't in on the secret for the entire plot line to work. The other reason I question the writing is that Shy Baldwin is presented as a stereotypical effeminate gay guy, whereas Johnny Mathis was a champion athlete. Ignoring that side of him made it easier for them to portray him as a victim and make his teary confession to Midge. In my opinion, they missed an opportunity for a more complex portrayal. 

Sure, Johnny Mathis was a championship athlete - but then again, so was Caitlyn Jenner, and any number of gay or trans athletes and Olympians.

The first time I saw Shy on the show, I immediately pegged him as a Johnny Mathis type singer, well before I knew anything about Johnny, because he moved the same way Johnny did.

We're seeing Shy/Johnny during his music career, while on the road. Basketball and track and field aren't really part of this story. I don't really see how they would fit his athletic background into the story - have a pick-up basketball game? A reference to his college days? Those don't add much complexity in my opinion.

I think the portrayal of a black super star, who cannot stay in many of the hotels he plays, and who needs to stay hidden while in the spotlight, and is subject to being beaten when he does step out, is pretty complex in and of itself.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Clanstarling

[Old Man Neil]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

We're seeing Shy/Johnny during his music career, while on the road. Basketball and track and field aren't really part of this story. I don't really see how they would fit his athletic background into the story - have a pick-up basketball game? A reference to his college days? Those don't add much complexity in my opinion.

With a reference to his college days they could have established that he was a college graduate. That alone would have added a layer to the portrayal of Shy Baldwin. I've also mentioned in another post that Johnny Mathis learned how to cook from his mom. In my opinion it would have been fun to incorporate that into the portrayal. Johnny Mathis preferred to be called John, which indicates that he wanted to be taken seriously, something we don't get from Shy. His manager was a woman who made sure that he could stay in the hotel where he was starring. That fact is ignored by the writers of TMMM. 

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think the portrayal of a black super star, who cannot stay in many of the hotels he plays, and who needs to stay hidden while in the spotlight, and is subject to being beaten when he does step out, is pretty complex in and of itself.

Of course it is. I enjoy the show, too. I think it's fascinating the way they conflate real life with imaginary characters. 

My user name is a play on Neil Young, one of my favorite musicians. I'm not into crooners like Johnny Mathis. I think it's great that the show has me researching the lives of people I otherwise would have little interest in. 

[Clanstarling]

13 minutes ago, Old Man Neil said:

With a reference to his college days they could have established that he was a college graduate. That alone would have added a layer to the portrayal of Shy Baldwin. I've also mentioned in another post that Johnny Mathis learned how to cook from his mom. In my opinion it would have been fun to incorporate that into the portrayal. Johnny Mathis preferred to be called John, which indicates that he wanted to be taken seriously, something we don't get from Shy. His manager was a woman who made sure that he could stay in the hotel where he was starring. That fact is ignored by the writers of TMMM. 

Of course it is. I enjoy the show, too. I think it's fascinating the way they conflate real life with imaginary characters. 

My user name is a play on Neil Young, one of my favorite musicians. I'm not into crooners like Johnny Mathis. I think it's great that the show has me researching the lives of people I otherwise would have little interest in. 

I can appreciate that. I think perhaps that rather than ignoring the details in Mathis' life, they didn't want to hew too closely to it - given that Shy's fictional, despite the fact he's supposed to remind us of Mathis.   Carol Kaye was not amused by the character based on her:

https://www.primetimer.com/item/Bass-legend-Carol-Kaye-calls-Mrs-Maisel-depiction-of-her-quot-slander-quot-that-made-her-life-a-quot-joke-quot-jnS0nK

I'm not into crooners either, my era of music is the same as yours, but like you, I do enjoy the research. 🙂

Edited January 4, 2020 by Clanstarling

[Old Man Neil]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I can appreciate that. I think perhaps that rather than ignoring the details in Mathis' life, they didn't want to hew too closely to it - given that Shy's fictional, despite the fact he's supposed to remind us of Mathis.   Carol Kaye was not amused by the character based on her:

Exactly! I think they wanted him to be Mathis, but Mathis is still alive and they were afraid of legal ramifications. But I wish they had thought of some other characteristics to give him complexity above and beyond what they gave us with Shy. 

As for Carol Kaye, I don't get it. I only knew who she was from the documentary The Wrecking Crew which another poster recommended. I second the rec. It's a great study of LA studio musicians who played on damn near every record that came out in the sixties. I think anything that turned people on to her would help her sell her book. 

https://shop.carolkaye.com/product/carol-kaye-autobiography/

Edited January 4, 2020 by Old Man Neil
To add link:

[Raja]

Carol Kaye is well known among sessions musician fans as a handful. I'm not surprised at all that she would not be happy with a homage. She probably would have held out for pay and script approval if she was a character like Lenny Bruce 

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, Old Man Neil said:

As for Carol Kaye, I don't get it. I only knew who she was from the documentary The Wrecking Crew which another poster recommended. I second the rec. It's a great study of LA studio musicians who played on damn near every record that came out in the sixties. I think anything that turned people on to her would help her sell her book. 

https://shop.carolkaye.com/product/carol-kaye-autobiography/

I think I may have been the one to recommend the documentary, which was fascinating.

I can't know what she objected to, but I'm guessing - given her age - part of it may have been references to on the road sex. I mean, she was a well respected professional musician in an era where that was pretty much unheard of. She would rightly be very proud of that, and her story (which I haven't read) would, I'm sure, have focused on her professionalism. So while the show didn't show her as "sleeping her way to the top," I could see she'd feel her achievement diminished by how she was portrayed.

15 hours ago, Raja said:

Carol Kaye is well known among sessions musician fans as a handful. I'm not surprised at all that she would not be happy with a homage. She probably would have held out for pay and script approval if she was a character like Lenny Bruce 

Even today, professional women are referred to as a handful (usually worse) when they act the same as professional men. So I'm not sure I would put much stock in that, personally.

[Armchair Critic]

So Rose picked up the money from the subway floor and used it at the tea room?

I knew Midge stepped over the line in her Apollo set, especially the obvious gay references like the closet and the ruby slippers.

I guess I am looking at it through a contemporary view, but sometimes I dislike Midge because she is so spoiled. She is divorced with 2 kids, buys new clothes all the time yet she never had to touch her earnings. She can live like an overgrown teenager because she doesn't have to support herself and she can have her family watch her children. So I didn't mind that Shy dropped her, maybe it will show her not everything comes so easily.

Also Joel's parents can be pretty terrible, but from the start Abe and Rose had an attitude about staying there so I didn't feel sorry for them either when they were irritated by them.

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Armchair Critic

[kwnyc]

Quote

he can live like an overgrown teenager because she doesn't have to support herself and she can have her family watch her children. 

She is trying to take some responsibility in providing a home for her children and her parents; I was impressed how she went to Moishe to ask him to help her buy her old apartment. (And Moishe is hard to take, but he can be a mensch. He didn't have to take Midge's parents in.)

Her plan to use everything she had earned on the road to give her kids' and parents a stable home was something that she wouldn't have been capable of in the first season. (And it will be interesting if she finds out that Susie gambled away the money, even though she is trying to make good on it.) She also stepped in and used her powers for good when she got onstage at Joel's club.

Getting called out on things is good for her, though not comfortable. When her ex-fiance showed up and tore her a new one, it forced her to admit her cowardice and that she hadn't even considered him when she had a chance to grow her career. And she finally got honest, but too late: she had considered going back to "housewife" status until she had the chance to go on the road with Shy. MAYBE Benjamin would have been able to make a marriage work with someone who is on the road and talks about personal things (or not), but she didn't give him (or herself) the chance.

And getting thrown off the tour was another object-lesson: she screwed up a good job and a regular paycheck by not thinking things through (and behaving like a pro). Reggie gave her good advice if she hadn't gone the wrong way with it: she started off well and won the crowd over...she didn't need to go all "chiffon" "makeup" "closet" and "Judy Garland" in her act.

That was also a tough lesson to learn: Shy is NOT her friend. They are co-workers on a long tour. You can get close to people, make friends with some of them, but remember who is the boss and who pays the bills. Midge never had to think of that. And now she does.

Reggie taught the both of them a good lesson. And, in the world of show biz, there could conceivably be a time when they work together again. If it's good for their careers, they will do it. 

I'm extremely interested in seeing where '60-'61 (or wherever the next season goes) takes us.

 

[ombre]

On 12/31/2019 at 3:59 PM, Penman61 said:

 

1. Midge definitely did not consciously think she was making gay-themed jokes about Shy, let alone "outing" him (not a social concept in 1960; though there were millions of closets, virtually no one was out). As others have pointed out, Midge was directed to do some Shy-based comedy, and so she did, basically on the theme of "Behind the scenes, Shy is really a spoiled cosseted peacock star," and not "Shy can suck a golf ball through a garden hose and is mighty light in the loafers, if you know what I mean [wink]."
2. Shy and Reggie are justifiably paranoid about ANY suggestion that Shy is gay, so they both--or at least, Reggie, as far as we're shown--over-react at this depiction of Shy because, while they aren't explicit, the jokes taken altogether are enough to trigger their paranoia. The audience's reaction is key here, and we don't get shots of a favorite being insulted; we get laughing reaction shots of "Oh, that sounds like him, he's so spoiled, but he's OURS!"

 

I'd add 3 - she always jokes about clothing. That's her shtick. So she was working from her place of strength and confort and... Hot dog was it a bad combination! Which, to double back to your first point about the nuance of this season... Yeah. Absolutely. They're *cooking*. 

 

I think the thing that has most blown me away about this season, and this ep in particular, is the way that it's taking ASP's past genuine weak spots and hiding things in them in plain sight. GG was just atrocious on race and sexuality. Well. No, the main show was blind. The Netflix season was *terrible*. But... She not only learned from that but she's using the low expectations of her on those topics as camoflauge. These final scenes could be tight because she'd been setting them up *all* season. And she could lay the pieces in plain view so well because of the decades of obliviousness in her earlier work. That may sound like damning with faint praise, but I'm truly impressed. 1) it takes work to change your worldview 2) I suspect however she heard this criticism wasn't pleasant and 3) to then take all of that and turn it into a tool takes both genuine change of perspective and then the ability to step back, see your whole body of work with objectivity, and the deviousness to then say, welp, okay, so how can I *use* that? Really well done. 

 

I like how we last saw lenny before the pace picked up and the heavy stuff came out wrt Shy. I continue to read Lenny as the road Midge could far too easily travel. So we saw the threat he symbolizes, and then moved away from it just long enough to forget it and give midge a running start to really blow things up. We know his path - perpetually unable to stop crossing the lines he shouldn't cross. Will midge ever learn from his mistakes? Her turning him down in 3.5 is a hopeful sign, but someday (never mind that interview) I suspect that she'll cross that line with him. Because *he's* not the real threat - the real threat is her own inability to choose humanity over a good line. 

 

Well done, show. I'll be over here on the ground feeling around for my jaw. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by ombre

[ChromaKelly]

Finished the season yesterday.
My big takeaway from the Apollo set and aftermath is that Susie is a shit manager, besides the money stuff. She took no time to prepare Midge for performing in front of an all-black audience. I mean, a few minutes before she went on, *that's* when it dawns on Midge that hey, this isn't her usual audience? Also, Susie left Midge on perhaps the biggest show of her life. Midge got nervous, and it was left to Reggie to calm her down. Reggie isn't the Midge-whisperer, that's Susie's job.

I also don't feel as though Midge outed Shy. I was afraid she would and was biting my nails through the set, but it seemed to me she walked the line of just teasing Shy about being high-maintenance and pampered. The ladies were all screaming for him still. Yes, Shy may have felt like it hit too close to home and he has every right to fire her over that. But again, if Susie had been there and had properly prepped Midge for the set, she wouldn't have had to riff.

I am really over Rose and Abe's attitude towards the Maisels. They didn't have to take them in. Yeah, it was all contrived for wacky hijinks, but it got old. I thought Abe was going to want to move to Florida after that ep. Also if they are so broke, let Zelda go. I'm sure she can find other work.

Make that three Joel fans. I'm not really getting the hate.

[lucindabelle]

Just as the pregnant girl overreacted to your remark because she WAS pregnant, shy overreacted to what would not have Joset a straight man. His feelings were hurt and he’s more nervous than others because he IS in the closet. If he were straight then he would take it as being made fun of for vanity.

 

if she’d signed the contract they’d have had to buy her out.

 

oarty if one I kind of like midge and Noel together.

 

however I also like Joel and Mei, and Midge and Benjamin.

[wendyg]

I think it would be fairer to say that Susie, like Midge, is learning on the job, rather than that she's simply "a crap manager". (I would also note that it's a signature tic of ASP shows that the finances and business strategies never make any sense.) She's good at spotting talent and opportunities; less good at the details.

I'd also note that while an agent traditionally has gotten 10%, a manager working the way Susie is - traveling with the act full-time and guiding the talent's career, as well as getting bookings and fielding contracts and offers - normally gets more than that. 20% at least would be typical, and it wouldn't be uncommon when an act is starting out and not earning much for it to be a good bit higher, especially for the one-on-one service Susie is providing with n oother source of income. But like I say, it is unwise to fall down the rabbit hole of trying to make sense of the fiances in any ASP show.

[ombre]

2 hours ago, wendyg said:

I think it would be fairer to say that Susie, like Midge, is learning on the job, rather than that she's simply "a crap manager". (I would also note that it's a signature tic of ASP shows that the finances and business strategies never make any sense.) She's good at spotting talent and opportunities; less good at the details.

I take it as showing (veeeerry indirectly) something about Susie - she's never had money, so she's never gotten into the trouble that comes with having a nickel that wasn't spoken for three times over. And this is falling in her lap so suddenly that she got in trouble before she even saw that she *could* get in trouble. And she doesn't have much by way of support network (I mean... Her *bookie* is her wake-up call, for heaven's sake!), so all she could do was pull herself up by her bootstraps. But before she could do that she had to fall. And then *realize* that she'd fallen. And then figure out where her bootstraps were. And then figure out which direction to pull them. Etc. She did all that pretty quickly, I've gotta say. But it does take time.  The problems of success are different from the problems of hard-scrabble. This whole line of development gets at a side of her personality and psychology that we hadn't seen before and that perhaps *she* hadn't seen before either. 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, wendyg said:

I think it would be fairer to say that Susie, like Midge, is learning on the job, rather than that she's simply "a crap manager".

I agree. She went from working in a comedy joint to trying to figure out how to deal with contracts, money, scheduling, other high maintenance performers/bookers (besides Midge). It's a lot to take on, and she's going to stumble about a bit. All she's really working with is a confidence and belief in Midge and a desire to step up in the entertainment world.

[Gummo]

The finale left us gobsmacked, thrilled and shaken, so my thoughts are pretty random:

Geez, every time things seem to be going right for Midge, she self destructs. It may be her most consistent character trait. I was yelling at the TV during her whole routine, NO NO NO STOPPPPP! Even if the audience didn't pick up on the subtext (which would make sense for that time frame), Shy is a prima donna who fires his band every other week, so he was bound to take offense at Midge betraying his confidence (or so it would seem to him). (And I definitely think it was Shy's doing, not Reggie's.)

I thought Susie and Tess bonding over committing a felony and torching the house for the insurance was hilarious. IIRC, the tour contract was for $4,500 and the insurance on that dilapidated shack couldn't have been much more, so the insurance company may just pay out without much fuss. At least Susie can make good on her debt to Midge without Midge ever knowing how bad it got. Susie crying may have been one of the most shocking moments of the entire series.

So sorry we won't, can't, see Jackie any more. So I guess "Criss-Cross" will take over as sole subtenant?

Glad the Maisels-Weissmans subplot is over. Even in a wacky comedy-drama, it stretched credulity to the breaking point. As an avid Village Voice reader for decades, I'm thrilled to see it brought into the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel world. IIRC, it began publishing around 1959-60, so it would have been a brand new liberal weekly then. Rose finding a career as an upscale matchmaker makes perfect sense. 

OTOH, not sure what's going on with Imogene. I guess she figures Midge's opinions are marriage are 180 degrees out of kilter based on Midge's own marriage, so if she says everything's okay, it's time to prep for independence?

Count me in on the pro-Joel votes. He's one of the few characters who's shown real growth over the 3 seasons while staying true to his character as we were first introduced to him. I agree with the poster who said it looks like Midge will be doing regular gigs at his new club as she rebuilds her career, thus bringing the two disparate plotlines together.

It reminds me of the Marx Brothers who several times in their vaudeville and stage careers suffered major setbacks and had to start from the bottom (or at least the middle) again. It happens.

So except for the Maisels-Weissmans story, I LOVED this season. I'll leave the nitpicking to others.

[kwnyc]

Quote

Susie crying may have been one of the most shocking moments of the entire series.

I agree...that tore me apart (and her!) Great work all season from Alex Borstein, and goes to my feeling that the "One True Pair" in the show is Midge/Susie. (For me, that was cemented when Midge, who doesn't really think much about anyone else, took the time to give Susie the good advice that Sophie is a bully and needs to be treated as such.) It reminds me of VIctor/Victoria (one of my favorite movies) in which the REAL love story is between Julie Andrews' character and Robert Preston's.

I also think Susie was right when she handed the finances over to Joel. He DOES love Midge, and always will, but they are never, ever getting back together. (Joel has also shown good business sense throughout the series.)

 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, kwnyc said:

. (Joel has also shown good business sense throughout the series.)

I'm not so sure about Joel's business sense or his ability to handle Midge's income. We shall see.

[kwnyc]

I'm thinking more in terms of when he was actually committed to his dayjob he came up with some great plans; and when he took over the finances at his father's business, he put them on much better footing and they actually bought the place. (See also:  Mrs. Moscowitz!) 😉

[luvthepros]

On 12/8/2019 at 3:36 PM, qtpye said:

She really was not into Dr. Hotness and he honestly deserves better.

Midge is more into Joel. She still loves him and I'm sure Joel still loves Midge. More to follow.....

[Bryce Lynch]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:32 AM, showme said:

Who didn't see that coming from a mile away? I am surprised Midge felt it is appropriate to talk about her boss in that way, she is supposed to be this super observant and socially aware woman, and she didn't think it is a bad idea to talk about Shy that way? The Judy Garland reference, the closet and all the feminine references, it was cringe worthy, frankly I do not understand why the audience would find it funny, it is not like they all knew Shy was gay.

I figured it would get her fired.  But, I don't think she outed him.  I think the audience would have taken more like she was poking fun at him for being so handsome, stylish, pampered and spoiled, that he could almost be gay.  

I wonder if Shy really fired her or if Reggie did.   I think Reggie did it on his own.  Reggie is more obsessed with protecting Shy's secret (and his own) than Shy is.

 

[luvthepros]

On 12/9/2019 at 12:54 PM, leighdear said:

 ..........., the "Midge-wakes-up-in-a-pool-chair" with synchronized swimmers right there came of as stupid to me.

I loved that scene, especially when Midge kicked a goal with the beach ball. So damn funny!

[luvthepros]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:28 PM, ShadowFacts said:

........... what is up with Midge? She throws over Benjamin, resists Lenny, but ends up in bed with Joel and then Las Vegas marriage. Is it just that he dumped her and she can't let it go? I don't know what to make of that.

Yup....just as I thought. They still love each other. More to follow........

[luvthepros]

On 12/12/2019 at 2:16 PM, Razzberry said:

I think Midge is getting bad rap.  Comics make fun of people, it's what they do.  Sensitive people should never be friends with or date one.   Even sitting in the audience can be hazardous if they can get a laugh, as my boyfriend found out during a Don Rickles show.😰

As I read that highlighted line, I immediately thought of Don Rickles. That was his schtick and it worked very well for him....quite lucrative for him. Folks EXPECTED that type of humor from him.

[luvthepros]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:51 PM, lonestar said:

The woman who danced at the Apollo before Shy appeared and in his song was outstanding. I had to rewatch her, she was so good.

I enjoyed the dancing too but it didn't seem like 60's style of dance......more like 2019.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I figured it would get her fired.  But, I don't think she outed him.  I think the audience would have taken more like she was poking fun at him for being so handsome, stylish, pampered and spoiled, that he could almost be gay.  

I wonder if Shy really fired her or if Reggie did.   I think Reggie did it on his own.  Reggie is more obsessed with protecting Shy's secret (and his own) than Shy is.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking, but you put it more succinctly,  @Bryce Lynch  
I have an important email that needs editing if you're so inclined. j/k

[Bryce Lynch]

I thought Joel showed a lot of growth in this episode.  First he sought out Mai to apologize after being such an ass to her for helping him with the liquor license and other things.

Then, when the juke box stopped working and Midge took the stage to save the day, instead of getting mad at her for "stealing the spotlight" and not allowing him to succeed on his own, he appreciated the help.  

He seems to have gotten over his need to do everything on his own and resenting needing a woman's help.

[luvthepros]

On 1/12/2020 at 7:38 PM, ChromaKelly said:

Make that three Joel fans. I'm not really getting the hate.

Another Joel fan here!

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, luvthepros said:

Another Joel fan here!

I'm not exactly a fan. I disliked him in the first season, but he's shown some growth and self-awareness over the seasons that I respect. Especially since I'm not sure I've seen much of that in many of the other characters. He's also stepped up for his parents and Miriam, so I'm on the "he's a work in progress and he doesn't irritate me as much of most of the other characters" train. (except Susie, she never irritates me and I love her)

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

On 1/19/2020 at 8:12 PM, luvthepros said:

Another Joel fan here!

I'm not exactly a fan. I disliked him in the first season, but he's shown some growth and self-awareness over the seasons that I respect. Especially since I'm not sure I've seen much of that in many of the other characters. He's also stepped up for his parents and Miriam, so I'm on the "he's a work in progress and he doesn't irritate me as much of most of the other characters" train.

Since this is fiction, I have no problem with this season's Joel, but IRL, he would still be a cheating cheater unless maybe he moved in with a very wealthy woman.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Since this is fiction, I have no problem with this season's Joel, but IRL, he would still be a cheating cheater unless maybe he moved in with a very wealthy woman.

Oh sure, he's a cheating cheater. But even they can turn themselves around and become better people.  I'm not sure I understand how how moving in with a wealthy woman would make him not a cheater?

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Oh sure, he's a cheating cheater. But even they can turn themselves around and become better people.  I'm not sure I understand how how moving in with a wealthy woman would make him not a cheater?

I was just projecting from my only experience with a cheater who stopped cheating because the life of ease was worth hanging onto. But I've also seen a lot of comments in media over the years about how cheaters never stop cheating. Is that not usually true? 
Anyway, fictional Joel seems to have gotten his skirt chasing out of his system and is now looking for monogamy, but I won't be surprised if it turns out that this leopard didn't really change his spots after all.

[Pallas]

People may marry without knowing much about life, intimacy or each other; they can strike up terrible mis-matches. Or near-hits that are still big misses: couples who are really buddies or romances. Or where one partner is ready and the other only wants to be. Or most painfully, where a good match jumps the gun. In those marriages -- undertaken under false premises -- infidelity is likely and, to my mind, not necessarily definitive. People may not change much, but they can grow up a lot.

It turns out that Joel had tons of unfinished business: with his parents, and with the social expectations of a very conformist time. He figured things out in the wrong order. A mistake more common than not, and one that he's pretty much devoted himself to putting right, ever since. Midge might have some sympathy, since it's now clear that she got married when she still had tons of business not even begun. For one, finding her genius. For another, finding the person within the layers and layers of competence, craft and veneer. She may never get to the bottom of that, because she's a swimmer, not a diver nor a drifter. We don't really want to spend our quiet moments with Midge Maisel. Neither does she.

But in some marriages it only takes one who puts it first to make it work. As the heroine sings in The Music Man, "And I would like him to be/More interested in me/Than he is in himself/And more interested in us/Than in me." The story may be that Joel's becoming that one. I've seen it happen.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I was just projecting from my only experience with a cheater who stopped cheating because the life of ease was worth hanging onto. But I've also seen a lot of comments in media over the years about how cheaters never stop cheating. Is that not usually true? 
Anyway, fictional Joel seems to have gotten his skirt chasing out of his system and is now looking for monogamy, but I won't be surprised if it turns out that this leopard didn't really change his spots after all.

That's fair. I haven't had much personal experience in that regard, but I do know from others that people cheat for many reasons, and not all of them have to do with having a wandering eye. So I think depending on what drove them to cheat, they might not become repeat offenders. That being said, if it happened to me, I might not be so generous.

[shapeshifter]

I happened to hear Ricky Martin's name on the news today and thought about him coming out about 20 years ago when he was famous as a heterosexual teenage heartthrob, and how cruel it would have been for a comic to make fun of and ridicule his sexuality like Midge did with Shy, whether before or after he came out. 
Midge was just as cruel in the earlier season to her friend at the wedding shower, but this time she didn't get with it.