S03.E02: Margaretology

[Blakeston]

Unfortunately, I think the show is going to make just about every American president look bad when given the opportunity.

If they'd depict JFK as a freaking wife beater - despite all evidence to the contrary - I'm not remotely surprised that they focused on LBJ's gross aspects.

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Unfortunately, I think the show is going to make just about every American president look bad when given the opportunity.

If they'd depict JFK as a freaking wife beater - despite all evidence to the contrary - I'm not remotely surprised that they focused on LBJ's gross aspects.

True enough. Though at least with LBJ, there was some "there" there 😉

Though really, I can't blame them from having their own opinions about our presidents - but there's a difference between perspective and factual accuracy.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Clanstarling

[shockermolar]

On 11/17/2019 at 7:36 PM, stcroix said:

At this time period Texans (especially ones who grew up poor) still had heavy twangy accents.

LBJ had a distinct accent certainly, but he was never poor and not all Texans (or even most Texans, poor or otherwise) have a twang in their accent. That's sort of an east Texas rural thing. LBJ had a southern accent for sure, but it's not at all typically Texan. He was, by the way, from central Texas in an area we call the Hill Country.

[AnnaBaptist]

What was Margaret's answer to the question about comparing the UK and the US? I've replayed it several times and can't make out what she said.

And when she was in the hotel in Los Angeles and went to the elevators, why was there the sign "Lift" over each elevator shaft? Was it common for American hotels at that time to use the British term?

[Cheezwiz]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Agreed about the CGI.  Have can they not do a convincing White House exterior?  Especially with the money they spend on this show.

Glad it's not just me - I thought that establishing shot of the White House looked really weird, but I didn't have time to look more closely to figure out why.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, AnnaBaptist said:

What was Margaret's answer to the question about comparing the UK and the US? I've replayed it several times and can't make out what she said.

Reporter: What do you think is the main difference between Britain and America?
Margaret: Well, my sister isn't on the banknotes here.

[AnnaBaptist]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Reporter: What do you think is the main difference between Britain and America?
Margaret: Well, my sister isn't on the banknotes here.

Thank you so much!

[Blakeston]

I rewatched the ending, and I found the brief glance between young Elizabeth and Lascelles to be pretty opaque. I didn't pick up on any vibe of "our plan worked, and now Margaret gets it, job well done."

If anything, Elizabeth just looked sad to me.

[meep.meep]

On 11/17/2019 at 12:07 PM, WatchrTina said:

So that clunker of a scene spoiled the episode for me to a certain extent.  But that being said, I do love the idea of Margaret and Johnson bonding over their shared, long-simmering resentments  at always being in someone's shadow.  And I can totally believe that they had a shared love of a dirty limerick, which I can assume Margaret inherited from her father -- remember the very first episode?

I liked the episode, but I doubt that LBJ had long-simmering resentments at always being in someone's shadow.  He had been JFK's VP, but before that he had a long career in the House and the Senate, culminating with being the Senate Majority Leader for a long time.  He was a man who could get legislation passed because he could make deals.  He was crude, but he was no fool and nobody's second banana.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

I liked the episode, but I doubt that LBJ had long-simmering resentments at always being in someone's shadow.  He had been JFK's VP, but before that he had a long career in the House and the Senate, culminating with being the Senate Majority Leader for a long time.  He was a man who could get legislation passed because he could make deals.  He was crude, but he was no fool and nobody's second banana.

Indeed. Getting LBJ to run as JFK's VP was a brilliant strategy - Kennedy would never have won without him (and didn't win by a large margin as it was). And sadly, JFK would never have been able to get the voting rights and civil rights legislation through - that took a man with LBJ's experience and knowledge.

[Paloma]

On 11/22/2019 at 9:52 AM, Clanstarling said:

I wasn't alive back then, but these days people definitely come to SF for vacation and then come to Oakland and Berkeley. I know several people who have done so in the past decade.

My husband and I used Oakland as a base on our last trip to San Francisco and were surprised by how nice it was, at least in near the ferry. We got much better bang for our buck at the hotel than we could get in SF, there were good restaurants and shopping areas, and it was fun taking the ferry to/from SF every day. (Sorry for the OT trip report.)

[CeeBeeGee]

On 11/18/2019 at 11:30 AM, OtterMommy said:

I was apprehensive about HBC at Princess Margaret.  I love HBC, but I just couldn't quite see it, but now I'm convinced.  I think that, as an actress, she's identified by her "stranger" roles, although she really seems to shine in more "normal" roles (you know, ones not in Harry Potter or Tim Burton movies).  I do hope she gets the recognition she deserves for this role.

I've been a fan of HBC going all the way back to Lady Jane. She's an incredibly good actor who has to some degree been typecast of late (past 10-15 years or so) as a character actor due in part to her association with Tim Burton and her magnificent turn as Bellatrix in the HP movies. (GOD, did I love HNC as Bellatrix. She was just so committed to the insanity. 🎼 I killed Sirius Black!) But she was a great young leading lady in Lady Jane and Room with a view. I love her as Margaret. It's nice to see her unleash the charisma and humor in an un-quirky, un-eccentric role.

On 11/18/2019 at 11:44 AM, benteen said:

Tobias was tremendous in that scene where he discusses the Windsors.

One other knock...the recreation of the outside of the White House looked terrible.

Tobias was great (and I have been pleasantly surprised at his performance--I was none too sure about his casting). But that kind of long, insightful monologue about the Windsors strikes me as out of character. I don't really mind it--it was interesting--but that was the show talking, not Philip. Philip is not that insightful. (And to address the substance of the monologue itself--there is some truth to it but who in their right mind would lump in Prince Eddy with the dashing, charismatic, dangerous Windsors a la Margaret, Uncle Nazi, etc.? Eddy was the most uncharismatic, unimpressive, personality-less Windsor ever to have been conceived. The Windsors really dodged a bullet when he died. Stodgy as George V was, he was 100 times more suited for the monarchy than his older brother.

On 11/19/2019 at 11:26 AM, arsenic said:

It's funny reading American viewers being upset at bad American accents and complaining about the casting for this British show when most American productions are incapable of casting proper actors who actually speak the language they are supposed to be speaking. For instance, casting Québéquois actors to portray French people or simply having Americans portray various nationalities while speaking English with an "accent" (why? just why?). I guess when the tables are turned, it's jarring, right?

Huh? Quebecois accents and...what? What does that have to do with this show, The Crown? I don't understand how a comment about this show led to this sweeping generalization about "most American productions."

On 11/19/2019 at 11:56 PM, Magnumfangirl said:

Exactly.  In spite of that, I thought this episode was pretty entertaining.  I'm not feeling Olivia Coleman as QEII, though.  I usually like her, but she seems less real than Claire Foy.  Claire could do a lot with an eyeroll or just an eyebrow lift.  Plus, they've got OC looking more dowdy than QEII looks at 90. 

To be fair, Elizabeth was pretty dowdy in the '60s, '70s and '80s. She upped her game significantly after that and now looks spectacular on a regular basis. I love the color block look! But back then, those hats...these middle-aged decades were not good for her.

On 11/21/2019 at 11:02 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Back to the show: Tommy may have been awfully curt with Margaret, but I could see his goal. There was no way hundreds of years of royal tradition were going to be changed because of the wishes of a couple of gradeschoolers. Best to get that thought out of both of their heads immediately.

I love me some supremely masculine bitchy Tommy Lascelles...but need he have been so mean? This was a child, acting on a child's impulses. Obviously it was never going to happen but again, she was a child. He came off as kind of a jerk to her, IMO. 

On 11/22/2019 at 3:48 PM, Pepper Mostly said:

By all accounts Margaret both played the piano and sang well. She was also an accomplished mimic. She was very entertaining and amusing at parties. A discontented woman who would probably have been discontented no matter what her station in life. She very much wanted to be treated like a princess, and got salty even if old friends lost sight of that and became over familiar.

This is taking me out of HBC's performance a bit--she is fantastic but, as Sweeney Todd demonstrated, not exactly a great singer. (Still loved her as Mrs. Lovett though!) Can't they dub her with a decent singer?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

But back then, those hats...these middle-aged decades were not good for her.

The ones that really kill me are the hats that look like swim caps covered in silk flowers. 

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The ones that really kill me are the hats that look like swim caps covered in silk flowers. 

That description is perfection. For those of us who remember swim caps. 😉

[seewillrun]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The ones that really kill me are the hats that look like swim caps covered in silk flowers. 

And can you imagine what their hair looked like when they took the hats off?

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

13 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

But back then, those hats...these middle-aged decades were not good for her.

The ones that really kill me are the hats that look like swim caps covered in silk flowers. 

There were swim caps covered in flowers! Elizabeth might as well have been wearing a swim cap, heh.

[benteen]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:38 PM, Clanstarling said:

True enough. Though at least with LBJ, there was some "there" there 😉

Though really, I can't blame them from having their own opinions about our presidents - but there's a difference between perspective and factual accuracy.

Yeah, at least some of LBJ's characteristics were accurate.  Kennedy's portrayal was a joke and a disservice on many levels.

[Milburn Stone]

Not digging this season so far, despite how much I was looking forward to it. The show had its bad moments before, but it's like Peter Morgan has now followed his worst instincts as a writer and constructed a series entirely of bad moments. (Is Julian Fellowes his role model?)

I do believe Margaret and Johnson could have bonded over their shared "subordinated in the shadows" history. (Although let's be accurate: Johnson was subordinated in the shadows for all of three years. Before that, he was the most powerful man in the Senate, and before that, a rising power in the House of Representatives. I'm sure it rankled him to be so disrespected as Kennedy's VP, but he was accustomed to real power, unlike Margaret.)

What I don't believe is that Margaret would have shit-talked Kennedy at that dinner, or that LBJ would have tolerated her doing it for a second.

I also didn't buy, at all, the whole limerick sequence. Some cursory research bears out that this never happened. But the more serious problem is not that it's fictional, it's that it's so unconvincingly fictional.

Finally, to my own surprise, I'm not liking Olivia Colman in this as much as I thought I would, based on how much pleasure she's brought me in other roles. Her queen feels recycled to me. I see the monarch she played in The Favourite. I see the step-mom she played in Fleabag. I see a bit of her real persona as she projects in person. I see a lot of mannerisms that scream Olivia Colman. What I don't see is a fully inhabited and convincing character, in a performance that I wish rose to the level of the ones she gave (as very different characters) in The Night Manager and Broadchurch.

I hope Episode 3 brings me back in the fold.

[jschoolgirl]

On 11/22/2019 at 9:31 PM, AnnaBaptist said:

What was Margaret's answer to the question about comparing the UK and the US? I've replayed it several times and can't make out what she said.

And when she was in the hotel in Los Angeles and went to the elevators, why was there the sign "Lift" over each elevator shaft? Was it common for American hotels at that time to use the British term?

Good catch on the "Lift"sign! 

The show's done poorly with all things American: the San Francisco reporter's horrible accent, the White House CGI, the LBJ-HRH dining room, Jackie's hair (!), and the wife-beater thing.

[Aim123]

On 11/17/2019 at 10:34 PM, Constantinople said:

I disagree. In my opinion fiftysonething Helena Bonham Carter is far better looking than thirtysomething Princess Margaret. 

Margaret may have once been pretty by the standards of the Windsor family, but even when young she couldn't hold a candle to Vanessa Kirby. She's been very fortunate in the actresses cast to play her

I think Olivia Colman looks like an older Vanessa Kirby. And it bothers me that the eye color of both women went from light blue to dark brown.

[Sweet-tea]

On 11/17/2019 at 1:03 PM, Brn2bwild said:

Somehow I can't see the conversation between the young Elizabeth and Margaret ever taking place.  I suspect once Elizabeth knew she would be queen someday, that was it.

I don't see why Elizabeth couldn't have told Margaret that she could have represented the Crown at certain public events.  There was plenty of precedent going back to Victoria, and it's standard for the extended Royal Family now.  They wouldn't be sharing duties, but it would be important work nonetheless.

Maybe because Margaret is a loose cannon and Elizabeth is afraid she'll be an embarrassment to the Crown. Her off-color jokes, drinking and carrying on at the White House was not something the Queen liked at all. It may have been effective in this instance, but as Philip said, who knows what could happen in the future. 

I think one of the differences between the two women is Elizabeth puts the Crown while Margaret usually puts herself first. 

Quote

 I think it was a big coincidence that Margaret behavior at the dinner party with the president was a success. She actually did the exact opposite from what she was asked, so I can see why she was denied "a bigger role". Prince Philip was 100% right. And Tobias Menzies is great in that role. 🙂

Exactly. It could've gone very badly, because Margaret does what Margaret wants. She is so focused on being the center of attention and being adored that she is reckless in her behavior. It also looks like she drinks too much. 

 

On 11/17/2019 at 6:18 PM, ProudMary said:

I agree with you, and while I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, I really don't care for HBC in the role either.

Full disclosure: I've never really been a fan of Helena Bonham Carter, but aside from that, HBC's just way too old for the role, at least at this point. Princess Margaret was only 35 at the time of her visit to D.C.  HBC is 53 and IMO looks her age. Also, this may sound shallow, but it's also the truth: Part of Margaret's charm was her beauty. Just my opinion, but HBC, neither now nor when she was 35, is enough of a beauty to effectively portray Margaret's charms. And, like a few others, I think her performance is OTT.

More than any of the other actors, the one I miss the most is Vanessa Kirby. I definitely wasn't expecting that to be the case.

I think she's too old for the part too, but I also think OC looks too old to be the queen at this stage of her life. I don't really understand why they made such a big mistake. Why not wait and let OC play the queen when they get to the last few seasons and are showing the later years? They could age her a little. CF could easily have played the queen this season, and VK could've still been Margaret. They're only supposed to be in their 30s! 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Sweet-tea

[RedbirdNelly]

echoing comments on bad attempt to show the White House. I found myself getting confused on what the location was supposed to be---London? DC? because the sets were not well done.

I enjoy HBC and enjoyed her portrayal of Margaret. I have sympathy for Margaret while also being annoyed by her. Being second fiddle like that would be hard--on the other hand it was very clear on how that was going to be, so there was an opportunity to be realistic and take on something that gave her a sense of accomplishment and pride.

[Normades]

On 11/23/2019 at 11:10 AM, Blakeston said:

I rewatched the ending, and I found the brief glance between young Elizabeth and Lascelles to be pretty opaque. I didn't pick up on any vibe of "our plan worked, and now Margaret gets it, job well done."

If anything, Elizabeth just looked sad to me.

My take on the whole Margaret wanting to be Queen and Elizabeth not stopping her from asking was that it showed how Elizabeth was torn between duty and the love for her sister.  I don't think she was as keen to take on the duty as Margaret because she was smart enough to understand the downside of the situation, but she also didn't want to tell her sister no (just as it was difficult for her to do with the Townsend affair).  I think she felt sad for Margaret and wanted to indulge her, as her father had done, but knew deep down it was not possible.  Even though I doubt any of this ever happened I think it helped illustrate how torn Elizabeth was.

[Wordsworth]

I wish Tommy had been more gentle with Margaret when explaining that she and Elizabeth couldn't switch.  

This episode was pretty good.  I'd watch Clancy Brown play Stalin, so it didn't really bother me that he was LBJ.   His portrayal was pretty tame, too, compared to the real Johnson.  

I was distracted by the White House myself...it just didn't look right.

 

 

 

 

[PeterPirate]

So, with just a few hours to go before S4 launches off the pad, I just want to reiterate that this is my favorite episode of the first three seasons.  It's just so entertaining.  

[Growsonwalls]

One thing I noticed about this episode: Lyndon Johnson had his arm around Margaret's waist. Isn't that a huge no-no? You're not supposed to ever touch royalty or something?

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing I noticed about this episode: Lyndon Johnson had his arm around Margaret's waist. Isn't that a huge no-no? You're not supposed to ever touch royalty or something?

Probably not according to protocol, but LBJ wasn't much on protocol, and Margaret apparently allowed a LOT of men to touch her (usually in private).

[Roseanna]

On 5/28/2020 at 2:36 AM, Wordsworth said:

I wish Tommy had been more gentle with Margaret when explaining that she and Elizabeth couldn't switch. 

That would not have realistic in general (people wouldn't behave in the same way as today) nor true to the stiff character of Tommy Lascelles. And even more: making people behave well, how good it is irl, make a bad drama.

Besides, Margaret was old enough to understand what primogeniture means. And her idea of being King/Queen was from fairytales, although she should have witnessed from her father how heavily he felt his duty.  

[PeterPirate]

On 1/9/2020 at 5:42 AM, Normades said:

My take on the whole Margaret wanting to be Queen and Elizabeth not stopping her from asking was that it showed how Elizabeth was torn between duty and the love for her sister.  I don't think she was as keen to take on the duty as Margaret because she was smart enough to understand the downside of the situation, but she also didn't want to tell her sister no (just as it was difficult for her to do with the Townsend affair).  I think she felt sad for Margaret and wanted to indulge her, as her father had done, but knew deep down it was not possible.  Even though I doubt any of this ever happened I think it helped illustrate how torn Elizabeth was.

From the articles I've read, Margaret never tried to usurp the throne IRL.  On the other hand, she was somewhat indulged by her parents.  So if anyone was going to drop the hammer on Margaret for her royal pretensions in this episode, it would have been Tommy Lascelles.  TCMW.  

I've also seen an article or two about how "Margaretology" was indeed used back in the day.  

Edited December 27, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Morgan missed an obvious, and likely true, tension and regret for Elizabeth that she and the UK were so beholden to such a crude, lewd, hardscrabble commoner who was quite beneath them.   There was a hint of this, but I would have made it a central point, which would have all the more made an impact as Margaret lowered herself as she did in connecting with LBJ.  

The actor for LBJ was all wrong.  Among other things, the LBJ we saw was too hale and hearty in all the scenes.  He was also much less menacing than the real LBJ.  He was practically a Gollum with his lifelong resentments of the swells who would forever not truly welcome him, despite the power he amassed and his ability to wield it.  We did get a quick glimpse of his obsessions over such slights.  His bullying and his vicious pettiness were the stuff of legend, though.  I got little real sense of this in this portrayal.

Lascelles!  Per usual, he was quite correct in everything.  I have never found him to be a monster.  Certainly flawed, but never unduly vicious, imo.  He was very firm with the young girls in this ep.  It is also true that he was giving them their first real lessons in what fate had wrought.  Nice choice by Morgan to show Lascelles having repositioned himself so as to follow Margaret's return to Elizabeth.  He was sizing her up and I totally took it as Tommy steeling himself for many headaches to come thanks to the younger princess.

All in all, however, this was a thoroughly enjoyable romp.  

  

[PeterPirate]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:12 PM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Morgan missed an obvious, and likely true, tension and regret for Elizabeth that she and the UK were so beholden to such a crude, lewd, hardscrabble commoner who was quite beneath them.   There was a hint of this, but I would have made it a central point, which would have all the more made an impact as Margaret lowered herself as she did in connecting with LBJ.  

The actor for LBJ was all wrong.  Among other things, the LBJ we saw was too hale and hearty in all the scenes.  He was also much less menacing than the real LBJ.  He was practically a Gollum with his lifelong resentments of the swells who would forever not truly welcome him, despite the power he amassed and his ability to wield it.  We did get a quick glimpse of his obsessions over such slights.  His bullying and his vicious pettiness were the stuff of legend, though.  I got little real sense of this in this portrayal.

Lascelles!  Per usual, he was quite correct in everything.  I have never found him to be a monster.  Certainly flawed, but never unduly vicious, imo.  He was very firm with the young girls in this ep.  It is also true that he was giving them their first real lessons in what fate had wrought.  Nice choice by Morgan to show Lascelles having repositioned himself so as to follow Margaret's return to Elizabeth.  He was sizing her up and I totally took it as Tommy steeling himself for many headaches to come thanks to the younger princess.

All in all, however, this was a thoroughly enjoyable romp.  

Great post, especially the last sentence.  

I have mixed thoughts about Clancy Brown as LBJ.  Brown didn't bring the crudeness as much as other actors.  On the other hand, he played Johnson as intelligent and quick to pick up on how Margaret was playing him.  

The actresses who played Young Margaret and Young Elizabeth played their counterparts to pitch perfection.  

This is still my favorite episode of the series.  The Scottish actor who played Johnson's aide makes me think of Lieutenant Dan every time.  I'm still perplexed that they didn't show the hovercraft.  

Sidenote to YouTube and the rest of the internets:  LBJ stands for Lyndon Baines Johnson (and Lady Bird Johnson), not LeBron James.  

Edited October 29, 2022 by PeterPirate