S03.E06: Tywysog Cymru

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Prince Charles is sent to Aberystwyth to learn Welsh from an ardent nationalist in preparation for the ceremony for his investiture as Prince of Wales.

 

Dropping on Netflix on Sunday, November 17, 2019.

[Helena Dax]

Oh, wow, the actor who plays Charles is amazing! And poor Charles, btw. He's starving for affection. 

It was like The Speech of the Prince.

[phoenics]

This was such a riveting episode... and that scene at the end with Charles and The Queen killed me.  He really was starving for attention and love.

This puts an awful lot of things in perspective for me.  

Ugh - I'm so sad we are only gonna get 10 episodes.  I feel like the show is just getting into its groove.

[Mindthinkr]

Very sympathetic towards Charles. I have to wonder if the real Crown wanted it that way in cooperation for allowing this to be made. In my life I have seen public opinion about him as being a see saw. 

[freeser]

On 11/17/2019 at 6:35 PM, phoenics said:

This was such a riveting episode... and that scene at the end with Charles and The Queen killed me.  He really was starving for attention and love.

This puts an awful lot of things in perspective for me.

That last scene between the Queen and Charles was heart breaking to me.  Charles was trying to show the country of Wales that he appreciated them and all they had gone through with his addition to the speech.  I thought the Queen's response to him was horrible.  She acted like she hated Wales and put Charles down so hard for saying positive things about Wales.  They forced Charles to go to Wales to study against his wishes.  But he went and learned the language quite well.  A small thank you from his mother was certainly not too much to ask. 

I think that scene again shows that Elizabeth is Queen FIRST and a mother and member of a family second.  I'm not even saying that that is wrong, maybe that is how it has to be when you are Queen.  But it sure also shows how very hard it must be to be a child of the Queen when you come in second.  

Edited November 19, 2019 by freeser

[MrsR]

Josh O'Connor was absolutely incredible.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

Very sympathetic towards Charles. I have to wonder if the real Crown wanted it that way in cooperation for allowing this to be made. In my life I have seen public opinion about him as being a see saw. 

I doubt it, but they seemed to walk a line showing both sides of a lot of the family, basically avoiding taking any kind of pro or nay stand consistently.  Most have episodes showing them to be sympathetic or complete assholes, depending, I assume that will continue.

Yes, poor little amazingly rich boy is one of their approaches, if only it had taught him empathy and love for others, to have been deprived himself.

I have always wanted to learn Welsh, so it was fun for me to watch the lessons.  Ha, I know I have a touch of Welsh in my ancestry, but I have exactly no talent for even knowing where to begin with that language!

Edited November 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[formerlyfreedom]

Please keep discussion to the episode and events leading up to it; future history is considered to be a spoiler, so posts referencing future history will and have been removed.  The History Talk topic is available to discuss future history. Thank you.

[Umbelina]

I don't know the actor who is playing Charles, but I do know he brought me to tears, and that was an Emmy nomination performance if I've ever seen one.

I wish we had seen the whole Welsh speech though, and the reaction of the crowd.

The Queen was obviously pissed, so not hearing the rest of it, even with her brief lecture, kind of sucked.  She seemed to be both venting her anger on Charles, and, in exactly the wrong way, trying to teach him.  

I still don't know if I'm meant to think she's a cold woman who honestly dislikes her first born son, or if she is a bitter woman who resents the restrictions and sacrifices she's made all her life to NOT do what Charles did in Wales, or even perhaps if she thinks harshness is the only way to reel him in?

Either way, my tears didn't come with Charles and Elizabeth, they came with the teacher and his family, and with Anne's nod to him to continue in the changed speech he wanted to make.

Fantastic choice of a play for Charles to do at the end.  Nothing like Shakespeare to finish this.

I found the text of his speech, I'll put it in the history thread for those interested.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[magdalene]

I know Josh O'Connor who plays Charles from The Durrells in Corfu .  He is a superb young actor.  He doesn't look anything like the young Charles but he sure embodies him perfectly. They needed to get somebody who could evoke empathy in the audience because there are probably a lot of viewers who automatically see him as the villain later on.

[andromeda331]

Charles was the other concern of mine. Honestly, I've never really been a fan so I didn't know what I'd think of him in the show. Parts of him did annoy me. Him not really exploring Wales or the university at first. I know he tried to talk to one person but when that didn't happen went back to his room. It didn't really occur to him to explore the college or try and talk to other people. I cringed at him not knowing Llywelyn was. He really had no idea where his title came from? I was annoyed at him and who ever educated him. Did he really receive no education on Wales? He really has a clueless about him whether its just him or his upbringing I don't know. I'm glad he did get books and start exploring the country. I really liked that he really started liking Wales. What he added to his speech. 

I really don't know what they want us to think about his and the Queen's relationship. She watched her kids mostly in season one but never when out to play with them or really make much time for them. She was sympathetic to him over his boarding school in season two. She was really cold and horrible to him at the end. Yes, she quoted a lot of what Queen Mary said although more harshly. I'm really not sure why she was so upset about the speech. He added parts that would make Wales happy. Wasn't that the point of him going to Wales in the first place and learning the language. She really comes off as terrible. and cold. 

[swanpride]

I think she was annoyed because she felt that he had accused her in public.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I doubt it, but they seemed to walk a line showing both sides of a lot of the family, basically avoiding taking any kind of pro or nay stand consistently.  Most have episodes showing them to be sympathetic or complete assholes, depending, I assume that will continue.

Yes, poor little amazingly rich boy is one of their approaches, if only it had taught him empathy and love for others, to have been deprived himself.

I think that the actor does a wonderful job: while Charles is treated badly by his parents, his self-pity is annoying. 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The Queen was obviously pissed, so not hearing the rest of it, even with her brief lecture, kind of sucked.  She seemed to be both venting her anger on Charles, and, in exactly the wrong way, trying to teach him.  

I still don't know if I'm meant to think she's a cold woman who honestly dislikes her first born son, or if she is a bitter woman who resents the restrictions and sacrifices she's made all her life to NOT do what Charles did in Wales, or even perhaps if she thinks harshness is the only way to reel him in?

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really don't know what they want us to think about his and the Queen's relationship. She watched her kids mostly in season one but never when out to play with them or really make much time for them. She was sympathetic to him over his boarding school in season two. She was really cold and horrible to him at the end. Yes, she quoted a lot of what Queen Mary said although more harshly. I'm really not sure why she was so upset about the speech. He added parts that would make Wales happy. Wasn't that the point of him going to Wales in the first place and learning the language. She really comes off as terrible. and cold. 

There can be many reasons to the Queen's reaction. Maybe she was simply annoyed by Charles's self-pity when he, however covertly. compared his life with the Welsh miseries during centuries?

However, in the beginning we saw that Elizabeth does care about Charles and knows his character. She was evidently pleased that he was thriving in Cambridge but - again - she gave in to the pressure and sent him to Wales.

As for Wales, admitting that the English had for centuries repressed the Welsh, is a politcal decision and the royal family shouldn't make political speeches.   

[swanpride]

I was really laughing btw over the palace laying out their plans for the event with their "why fix what worked in the past" attitude and the Labour MPs staring at them in a mixture of disgust and awe over so much stupidity.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There can be many reasons to the Queen's reaction. Maybe she was simply annoyed by Charles's self-pity when he, however covertly. compared his life with the Welsh miseries during centuries?

However, in the beginning we saw that Elizabeth does care about Charles and knows his character. She was evidently pleased that he was thriving in Cambridge but - again - she gave in to the pressure and sent him to Wales.

As for Wales, admitting that the English had for centuries repressed the Welsh, is a politcal decision and the royal family shouldn't make political speeches.   

Is that really political though? They did repress the Welsh for centuries and treated them badly. Having someone actually say what they all ready knew was nice. I doubt they expected anything from it. But sometimes its nice enough just to hear something from the establishment, government or royal family who's line goes back to the very ones who did it in the first place. 

[Roseanna]

46 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Is that really political though? They did repress the Welsh for centuries and treated them badly. Having someone actually say what they all ready knew was nice. I doubt they expected anything from it. But sometimes its nice enough just to hear something from the establishment, government or royal family who's line goes back to the very ones who did it in the first place. 

When Edward VIII said "Something must be done", it was interpreted as interfering politics, i.e. criticizing the government, and therefore not fit to the King.

[seahag50]

All i can say is i wanted Charles to stand up straight....that drives me crazy

[rozen]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Charles was the other concern of mine. Honestly, I've never really been a fan so I didn't know what I'd think of him in the show. Parts of him did annoy me. Him not really exploring Wales or the university at first. I know he tried to talk to one person but when that didn't happen went back to his room. It didn't really occur to him to explore the college or try and talk to other people. I cringed at him not knowing Llywelyn was. He really had no idea where his title came from? I was annoyed at him and who ever educated him. Did he really receive no education on Wales? He really has a clueless about him whether its just him or his upbringing I don't know. I'm glad he did get books and start exploring the country. I really liked that he really started liking Wales. What he added to his speech.

Based on Charles' reactions throughout the episode, I think they were trying to communicate that he is used to being ostracized and alone. His father forced into a miserable primary school experience because of nostalgia, and he was just snatched from the one place he was somewhat happy to be re-deployed in the middle of nowhere surrounded by more people who dislike him. I thought it was very realistic that he would mostly retreat under those circumstances. 

The dinner conversation was comical, you'd think he would have training to more graciously exit a conversation where he doesn't understand the topic. Not just go "lol, what nonsense is this?" Then again Philip is his father so who knows.

The Queen went full "seen but not heard" in that closing argument. He so desperately refuses being a puppet that it makes her resentful at the implication that *she* is a puppet and how he fails to understand how much more leeway he already has compared to when she was being trained for the role. "No one wants to hear it" was savage, but to me it was a direct rebuttal to his accusation that she's a heartless mannequin.

[formerlyfreedom]

As posted above AND in the Notes From the Mods in the main forum, episode topics are to discuss what happened in the episode. Future history or events that may be covered in future seasons should be discussed in the History Talk topic. Posts have been and will be removed, and repeated transgressions may result in additional sanctions. Thank you.

[jschoolgirl]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

When Edward VIII said "Something must be done", it was interpreted as interfering politics, i.e. criticizing the government, and therefore not fit to the King.

One of his few, if not the only, admirable moments.

[Ellaria]

Josh O’Connor was absolutely riveting in this episode. What a presence among such a strong cast! And Erin Doherty is delightful as Anne.

It was rough watching Charles navigate thru that semester in Wales. The character as portrayed in this episode was awkward, aloof, and introverted. Yet, I believed that this was a young man that desperately wanted to be something else.

I could make lots of negative comments about the parenting styles of Elizabeth and Philip but to do so has no bearing on this show or the real life counterparts. I will never understand it. There must be a way to make duty the top priority without losing all else. I’m glad that it has never been a choice that I had to make.
 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Ellaria Sand

[Ravenya003]

That was excruciating, I've no idea who I felt worse for, Charles for the fact he has no life or the Welsh teacher they roped into tutoring him. Absolutely no one wanted to be in that situation. 

I felt the narrative arc, in which the tutor eventually shows sympathy for Charles's lot in life was a bit of a cliche (God forbid oppressed/mistreated people not eventually learn to *understand* the struggles of those in the gilded cage) but then, I don't want to sneer at basic human decency either. 

I have such mixed feelings about Charles in real life; on the one hand I don't doubt he had an extremely difficult childhood, on the other (as someone mentioned above) the self-pitying sad-sack routine gets tiresome. I laughed when Anne called him an Eeyore - it's so true!

That was an incredible performance from Josh O'Connor, he captured that sense of utter unease that Charles has, right down to the hunched shoulders and the constant fiddling with his sleeves because he doesn't know where to put his hands. He's a man who always seems so uncomfortable in his own skin, so he tries to be invisible even on the public stage. There I go, feeling sorry for him again. 

Edit: It's funny that I wrote this just a few days before he and Camilla visited Christchurch IRL. Such is my ignorance, I didn't even know they were in my city till I watched it on the evening news last night.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Ravenya003

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, rozen said:

The Queen went full "seen but not heard" in that closing argument. He so desperately refuses being a puppet that it makes her resentful at the implication that *she* is a puppet and how he fails to understand how much more leeway he already has compared to when she was being trained for the role. "No one wants to hear it" was savage, but to me it was a direct rebuttal to his accusation that she's a heartless mannequin.

A very good observation.

Why does Charles attack his mother but not his father? Because he doesn't dare or because blames her more than him?

Elizabeth is a better mother when she is not with Charles. She understands and is even glad that he in Cambridge where he thrives and is reluctant to send him to Wales but is persuaded by PM Wilson. She thinks that he should have influence on his speech as she had been at 21, but is persuaded by Philip that it's not a good idea.

The coming home scene is horrible, but obviously Elizabeth is hurt because of the speech, that Charles made family matters public - although nobody else certainly understood it.  

Generally, it's probably both the differences of character and the unique position of Charles and and their parents that make their relationship so difficult. Any other young person would just leave home. Charles's can't.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A very good observation.

Why does Charles attack his mother but not his father? Because he doesn't dare or because blames her more than him?

That's really a question I have for everyone. Charles blames his mother for everything, Philip blamed Elizabeth for two seasons and Margaret of course blames Elizabeth for everything. Why does she get all the blame?  . 

[Roseanna]

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That's really a question I have for everyone. Charles blames his mother for everything, Philip blamed Elizabeth for two seasons and Margaret of course blames Elizabeth for everything. Why does she get all the blame?  . 

Because she is the Queen although, as we have seen, she has no power: in the state matters she must do what her Prime Minister and Private Secretary "advice" her to do and otherwise she tries to compensate her husband's second place by pleasing him.     

[andromeda331]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Because she is the Queen although, as we have seen, she has no power: in the state matters she must do what her Prime Minister and Private Secretary "advice" her to do and otherwise she tries to compensate her husband's second place by pleasing him.     

Good point.  Also its easier to blame her then for any of them to take any responsibility in their own lives. Philip can whine all he wants but he made the choice to marry her no one forced him. Margaret can blame her all she wants and never take any responsibility for doing absolutely nothing or recognize her own faults that would make her crappy Queen and that she doesn't do anything and keeps screwing up. Sure she went on the DC trip but that whole America trip? She went to two places before crashing at the Arizona place. Her sister would have had to make many more stops. For Charles blames her because its easier and he's young. Anything that goes wrong is her fault. He knows very well what he can and can't do its been drilled into him all his life. But he doesn't want to listen. Except for Charles, Elizabeth seems to just take it probably as you pointed out she feels guilty about Philip's not being able to do what he wants, have the naval career and everything else wanted and feels guilty for Margaret being second place. While I understand its just really frustrating watching her get blamed for everything and just taking it. Even when its not her fault. 

[swanpride]

Honestly, there was a slight moment where I had sympathy for him, and that was when I though that he would have to stay in Wales for a year and wouldn't be able to participate in the play he trained for because of it. Because that would REALLY suck. But when I realised that it was about three months and he was able to go back and do his acting afterwards, my sympathy kind of vanished. Three month is nothing, there was no reason to go "eww, Wales" before he even was there an got a cold reception.

On the flip side, I think the tutor was the first one who ever offered him proper parenting. There is a difference between telling  someone "do this, because I told you so, and it is your responsibility" and telling someone "how about you consider the whole situation from the perspective of other people, understand why we you are supposed to do this and then decide what to do about it".

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Margaret can blame her all she wants and never take any responsibility for doing absolutely nothing or recognize her own faults that would make her crappy Queen and that she doesn't do anything and keeps screwing up. Sure she went on the DC trip but that whole America trip? She went to two places before crashing at the Arizona place. Her sister would have had to make many more stops. 

Margaret never thinks those Queen's duties that off the lamelight and rather boring, like reading state papers. She would never keep doing it, day by day, year by day. She wants admiration and fun, she couldn't endure what duty means. (More in the episode two.)

[swanpride]

This is btw something which tends to confuse me...Elizabeth is always portrayed as fairly uninformed in the show, but if she reads all of those papers, she actually should have a pretty good idea about what is going on in the government.

[Athena5217]

I love that the London politicians solution to Welsh oppression is “Let’s send Charles to Wales to learn Welsh” instead of the obvious “Let’s allow Wales more self-government.” I don’t know if that is historical, but it felt real.

I've been to Wales, and experienced exactly what Charles did reading those signs.

Charles can be annoying in his awkwardness, but I do feel sorry for him. Growing up is hard enough without being pulled out of school because the PM has told your Mum you should learn Welsh.

[Ohiopirate02]

34 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

I love that the London politicians solution to Welsh oppression is “Let’s send Charles to Wales to learn Welsh” instead of the obvious “Let’s allow Wales more self-government.” I don’t know if that is historical, but it felt real.

I've been to Wales, and experienced exactly what Charles did reading those signs.

Charles can be annoying in his awkwardness, but I do feel sorry for him. Growing up is hard enough without being pulled out of school because the PM has told your Mum you should learn Welsh.

I do know that there was a concerted effort with the British government to stamp out the Welsh language during the 19th and early 20th century.  So the idea of Charles spending time in Wales learning the language would be seen as a step in the right direction and has the added bonus of the British government not having to make any concessions.  

[swanpride]

Plus, they are most likely unionists. That they are not keen on the Royals doesn't mean that they are also enthusiastic over the notion of Welsh going their own way. They were most likely looking for a gesture to bind Wales closer to the UK, not for giving up power.

[iMonrey]

I must say they've done a splendid job in casting young Charles and Anne. Not only do they bear a passing resemblance to the real thing, they're both really good actors too. What a stroke of luck for the show.

This episode put the Queen in a horrible light, frankly. She came off very badly in that final scene. It's the first time I can remember in this series actively disliking her.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I must say they've done a splendid job in casting young Charles and Anne. Not only do they bear a passing resemblance to the real thing, they're both really good actors too. What a stroke of luck for the show.

This episode put the Queen in a horrible light, frankly. She came off very badly in that final scene. It's the first time I can remember in this series actively disliking her.

I dislike her too.  I didn't realize quite how much until I watched the whole season again, and then went back to watch some of season one and two.  (I have a longer post about this in the Cast thread.)  

I don't know what it is, but I think it's a combination of the acting and the writing, ESPECIALLY in this episode.  I still don't know why she was such a complete bitch to Charles there, there are several possible reasons, but the actress gave us no subtle clues what they were, and the writing didn't bother.

With Foy, there were always subtle clues in her body language, with Colman, there is just that somewhat maniacal stare and endless frown.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Umbelina

[tennisgurl]

Really interesting episode, and I am really glad that the time jump has allowed up to spend more time with the next generation of royals as they grow up. The actor playing Charles was superb, and I really did end up feeling so badly for him. Its clear that he is so uncomfortable in his own skin and so desperate for affection, that even with his aloofness and his at the times self pity, I did understand him and feel quite awful for him. I can understand why even his Welsh nationalist teacher and his wife ended up feeling sorry for him despite themselves! It was a quite riveting episode, and I really loved exploring both Charles and Wales. Charles is a person with a complicated history now, mostly based on other things that happened, so it was interesting to see his history explored. 

As for how Elizabeth handled Charles and his speech, I think she was horribly cold towards him, but I think a lot of that is how she was always taught to always repress what she is really feeling and what she really feels, and still struggles with a changing Britain that sometimes wants something different from their royal family. I also think that she was upset that he was airing some family dirty laundry, even if it was something that maybe only their family would notice, as letting any kind of family drama out in the public is horribly taboo, especially involving her and the future king. Its also possible that she is annoyed that she always had to stick to her speeches and never showing any real opinions or feelings when she was a young royal, but now Charles is doing that very thing, which it sounds like went over well, and that makes her feel rather jealous and bitter. I do think that he probably deserved at least a "well done son" or something for doing his duty so well. He didnt ask to be taken from the school he enjoyed and the play he was excited about to go to a school where he knows no one and a place that clearly doesent want him around to learn a whole new language all so that the government can do some damage control for something Charles had nothing to do with. 

I also liked seeing how Charles went from "ewww Wales" to really coming to enjoy Wales and its people and understanding their struggles. I do wonder if he was taught so little about Wales (especially as the Prince of Wales) but maybe he really wasn't, I have no idea. I thought his speech was great, he showed a lot of empathy for the people of Wales and their plight, and while he cant really do a whole lot to change policy in their favor, I can imagine it did mean something at least to hear someone from the royal family saying that he listed to them and saw their worth and their their complaints were valid and not to be just ignored out of hand. As for it being "political"and that him saying what he did was inappropriate for a royal, I dont see what he said as political, but I can see how people would say that it was. Nothing he said about how the Welsh people have been unfairly oppressed and mistreated by England is untrue, and he was hardly calling for armed insurrection, he was just saying that Wales has been treated badly and that their culture and history should be celebrated, and none of that is wrong. However, there are always going to be people who that any acknowledgement of past wrong doings, especially by a ruling class against oppressed people, is "getting political" even if your just stating the very obvious facts about what happened, and that it was obviously a bad thing that was done. So I can see why people might take issue with the speech for saying an uncomfortable truth (even in a very polite and even toned way) even if I applaud it. 

When Charles heard the music from the guy in the dorm next door, it was like "oh excuse me, I hear the 60s is happening in here..."

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Really interesting episode, and I am really glad that the time jump has allowed up to spend more time with the next generation of royals as they grow up. The actor playing Charles was superb, and I really did end up feeling so badly for him. Its clear that he is so uncomfortable in his own skin and so desperate for affection, that even with his aloofness and his at the times self pity, I did understand him and feel quite awful for him. I can understand why even his Welsh nationalist teacher and his wife ended up feeling sorry for him despite themselves! It was a quite riveting episode, and I really loved exploring both Charles and Wales. Charles is a person with a complicated history now, mostly based on other things that happened, so it was interesting to see his history explored. 

He was really amazing, I'm quite pleased with the younger cast, not so much the older, aside from HBC as Margaret, she's nailing this.

29 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

As for how Elizabeth handled Charles and his speech, I think she was horribly cold towards him, but I think a lot of that is how she was always taught to always repress what she is really feeling and what she really feels, and still struggles with a changing Britain that sometimes wants something different from their royal family. I also think that she was upset that he was airing some family dirty laundry, even if it was something that maybe only their family would notice, as letting any kind of family drama out in the public is horribly taboo, especially involving her and the future king. Its also possible that she is annoyed that she always had to stick to her speeches and never showing any real opinions or feelings when she was a young royal, but now Charles is doing that very thing, which it sounds like went over well, and that makes her feel rather jealous and bitter. I do think that he probably deserved at least a "well done son" or something for doing his duty so well. He didnt ask to be taken from the school he enjoyed and the play he was excited about to go to a school where he knows no one and a place that clearly doesent want him around to learn a whole new language all so that the government can do some damage control for something Charles had nothing to do with. 

Many of my guesses too here, but I'm annoyed that we have to guess, annoyed with the writing, and annoyed with Colman's ONE look and ONE tone of voice (in this case, her angry one) that didn't offer any subtext or feeling to express what was unwritten.  Since that was something I feel Foy excelled at?  It was jarring.

Also, Elizabeth was trained with KINDNESS, both from her father and from her grandmother.  Even her mother was never that harsh with her, and Winston guided her as well.  She offered no insight to Charles, no "reasons" and she certainly shared none of those feelings with him about how difficult it was for her as well, which could have helped him enormously, both as a person and as future King.  As played, it's just making me hate QEII, and I've never felt that way before this season.

Yeah, Charles can be whiny and too individualistic.  In this episode, Elizabeth came off like a jealous, uncaring, shrew who had absolutely no intention of guiding him the way she was guided, let alone showing ANY understanding of his feelings or insight about how to make that difficult adjustment.  Sharing a story or two about how difficult it was for her, as well as adding a story about how and when that reserve and caution has paid off would have not only been appropriate, it would have benefited not just Charles, but the Monarchy.

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I also liked seeing how Charles went from "ewww Wales" to really coming to enjoy Wales and its people and understanding their struggles. I do wonder if he was taught so little about Wales (especially as the Prince of Wales) but maybe he really wasn't, I have no idea. I thought his speech was great, he showed a lot of empathy for the people of Wales and their plight, and while he cant really do a whole lot to change policy in their favor, I can imagine it did mean something at least to hear someone from the royal family saying that he listed to them and saw their worth and their their complaints were valid and not to be just ignored out of hand. As for it being "political"and that him saying what he did was inappropriate for a royal, I dont see what he said as political, but I can see how people would say that it was. Nothing he said about how the Welsh people have been unfairly oppressed and mistreated by England is untrue, and he was hardly calling for armed insurrection, he was just saying that Wales has been treated badly and that their culture and history should be celebrated, and none of that is wrong. However, there are always going to be people who that any acknowledgement of past wrong doings, especially by a ruling class against oppressed people, is "getting political" even if your just stating the very obvious facts about what happened, and that it was obviously a bad thing that was done. So I can see why people might take issue with the speech for saying an uncomfortable truth (even in a very polite and even toned way) even if I applaud it. 

When Charles heard the music from the guy in the dorm next door, it was like "oh excuse me, I hear the 60s is happening in here..."

I agree completely.  He was so outstanding in this episode, I'll be shocked if he isn't nominated for awards, and not shocked at all if he wins.

[Razzberry]

Charles has always come off a bit odd to me, or maybe just less careful about what he says in public.   Anne (at least on the show) is delightful.

Ugliest Hat Ever goes to Elizabeth.  It looks like a football helmet.  They sure are making her drab and dowdy this season.  She's a better dresser now at 90, with her colorful outfits.

[Ohiopirate02]

15 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Charles has always come off a bit odd to me, or maybe just less careful about what he says in public.   Anne (at least on the show) is delightful.

Ugliest Hat Ever goes to Elizabeth.  It looks like a football helmet.  They sure are making her drab and dowdy this season.  She's a better dresser now at 90, with her colorful outfits.

I appreciate the fact that the costumers chose to recreate that hat.  I really cannot believe that someone made that hat and told the queen it was fashionable.  

[swanpride]

Honestly, the original looks somehow better. I think because it was kind of made for her specific face. It's also a little bit different then the remake...less helmet-like.

[Umbelina]

I think, hand down, the two best episodes of this season were set in Wales.  My other favorite is yet to come,

Spoiler

Margaret wowing the USA and Johnson who then bails out the UK.  That was fun.

Both, unfortunately had massive fails in acting and writing, and those were Colman/QEII.  Showing no emotion about the victims at all in the first, and in this one, the ugliness to Charles, left unexplained as far as her motivation.  

Edited November 19, 2019 by Umbelina

[freeser]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Also, Elizabeth was trained with KINDNESS, both from her father and from her grandmother.  Even her mother was never that harsh with her, and Winston guided her as well.  She offered no insight to Charles, no "reasons" and she certainly shared none of those feelings with him about how difficult it was for her as well, which could have helped him enormously, both as a person and as future King.  As played, it's just making me hate QEII, and I've never felt that way before this season.

I agree that there are many moments in this season that make me dislike QEII.  I don't know if it is how this third series is written, the actual stories,  Olivia's acting or what.  I don't exactly dislike her acting, but I don't think she has been given much actual emoting to do.  She seems very dour most of the time and has the same unhappy serious look on her face.  Except for the story involving the horses, she rarely ever smiles or has much of a change in her facial expressions.  Once in a while as in the final scenes with Margaret, she seems to show some emotion.  

When I finished the final episode I felt overall that I did not like this series nearly as much as the first two.  I think Phillip and Charles were very well cast and did a fantastic job.  But Olivia - not so much. I don't feel her part was as well written as some of the others.  Olivia probably did her best with what she was given.  I was just not as pulled in by the stories and acting as I was before.  I found myself looking more at the dresses, furnishings, scenery, etc. than the actors.

[swanpride]

I am kind of split...it had my favourite episode by far from the whole show, but it also kind of failed with the actual crown part...

[Empress Josephine]

Some of the criticism of Charles sort of irks me. I see similar qualities in other family members but because it is Charles, it somehow seems to be a problem. I am gonna rant a bit so bear with me...

Some posters are asking why the Queen gets the brunt of everyone's anger and resentment. Just sticking to the show, I think the answer is obvious and was answered in season one, when it was stated that everyone feels they can do the job better but for better or worse, the crown has landed on her shoulders.

Another thing, people are going after Charles for not knowing the history of Wales. I agree he should have been better prepared and should know the condition of its people and their right to self determination. However, by all accounts the House of Windsor (as represented in this show) is not known for good education on many things and that includes its own historical domains. Philip has to educate Elizabeth about the various personalities of her own family when mentioning its individualistic kings vs. those who sacrifice themselves for the crown. She doesn't even know the character of her own grandfather as a ruler or those of his cousins. 

Elizabeth herself references in season one and two that she has very little education and does not know what to talk about with heads of states beyond frivolous things. That's why she is relived when Eisenhower cancels his visit. She also has someone come into to re-educate her on the constitution and the crowns role in it even though she was specifically tutored in this as a child.

And then for people annoyed at Charles constant self pity and comparing his plight to Wales, the whole family does similar things. The only mistake Charles made is in who he confided in. In episode 5, Elizabeth gives herself quite a lot of self pity about her horrible Uncle who ensured she could not enjoy a life on the civil list without all the 'extra hard work'. If it wasn't for individualistic uncle, she could have spent her days just breeding, raising, and racing horses. She got a whole lot of sympathy looks from Lord Porchester. And she put her horse racing ahead of the country (leaving for a month and during the devaluing of the pound...that's some great priorities that is). 

Same with Margaret, constantly lamenting how she could do better as she has her husband Lord Snowden in her ear. And she called herself a 'vice Queen' like the responsibilities of a Queen much less a princess in the modern world is anywhere near those of President or Vice President.

And Philip is a whole lot of misery, self pity and passive aggressiveness when he chose to marry Elizabeth. He constantly has a chip on his shoulder about his childhood and family too. At least he had a lot of friends to go act a fool (and allegedly cheat around together) with and vent.

Lastly, Elizabeth and Philip are not the greatest parents. Perhaps their roles have a lot to do with it, but I think it is also just a matter of personality and choice. By all accounts, Elizabeth's father was very warm and loving. His childhood had his parents being similarly cold and distant (as it was expected at the time) but that did not stop him from being a rock to his own daughters.

So what is Elizabeth's excuse? Again (for the purposes of the show) the answer was given in season two as to why she is a bit detached from Charles. He is simply the reminder of the person that will replace her one day, the living walking breathing embodiment of her own death. She even admits this season that she felt very little when he was born. I mean children pick up on the feelings of their parents, whether overt or covert. I'd feel some self pity too if one parent resented me because I will replace them one day and the other dislikes that I outrank them, even though I did not ask for either of those things. And to make things worse, father dislikes you because your 'soft' and 'the girl' and mother basically doesn't stand her ground when defending you to said father because of 'the crown' and father throwing a fit and threatening divorce as Philip did in 2x09.

I thought this episode was good. I like the performance the actor gave. He conveyed how isolating it is at 'the top', especially without proper nurturing for the role when your parents secretly don't think you deserve to belong there. Well, they don't either but they lack that self awareness. Philip thinks he should be getting paid more for 'working so hard' after all.

[JasonCC]

I'm split on this episode. On one hand, the actor playing Charles is so good and I bought every moment of the son/parent conflict and distance. Lord Mountbatten and the actor who plays him is exceptionally engaging as well--such a strong presence!. On the other hand, I felt this episode was the most heavy-handed on pat, cheesy, over-explained analogy and TV-movie type tropes (in his play Charles was a tortured KING.....get it????).

I'm in my 40s (not from the UK although I did do a school exchange there at 16) and I feel in my lifetime I never witnessed the Queen Mother speak. She waved and smiled and wore huge hats exquisitely, but her interview days seemed long over, at least from anything that would make it over to the US. I feel the Queen Mother at this point in The Crown is slowly starting to resemble that Queen Mother I remember: silent.

Edited November 20, 2019 by JasonCC

[BitterApple]

The actor playing Charles is incredible, as is the one portraying Anne.

Elizabeth and Phillip are horrible parents.

I am beyond tickled pink anytime Tywinn Lannister is on my tv screen.

Overall, not sure how I feel about S3. The first several episodes were painfully slow, and I became hooked again with the arrival of Princess Alice. I agree it feels like this season is about to be over right as it's finally picking up momentum.

[Constantinople]

I forget who  -- the Queen's secretary? -- expected Charles's investiture to be a carbon copy of the investiture from 1911. Wilson was right, it sounded like an invasion. I can't help but wonder if it was partly meant to send a message to Germany. And of course by 1969 the British Empire no longer existed.

Which is why it's a bit simplistic for those characters who appear to argue that nothing regarding the royal family should ever change.

[qtpye]

On 11/19/2019 at 12:16 AM, Ravenya003 said:

That was excruciating, I've no idea who I felt worse for, Charles for the fact he has no life or the Welsh teacher they roped into tutoring him. Absolutely no one wanted to be in that situation. 

I felt the narrative arc, in which the tutor eventually shows sympathy for Charles's lot in life was a bit of a cliche (God forbid oppressed/mistreated people not eventually learn to *understand* the struggles of those in the gilded cage) but then, I don't want to sneer at basic human decency either. 

I have such mixed feelings about Charles in real life; on the one hand I don't doubt he had an extremely difficult childhood, on the other (as someone mentioned above) the self-pitying sad-sack routine gets tiresome. I laughed when Anne called him an Eeyore - it's so true!

That was an incredible performance from Josh O'Connor, he captured that sense of utter unease that Charles has, right down to the hunched shoulders and the constant fiddling with his sleeves because he doesn't know where to put his hands. He's a man who always seems so uncomfortable in his own skin, so he tries to be invisible even on the public stage. There I go, feeling sorry for him again. 

On 11/18/2019 at 5:18 PM, seahag50 said:

All i can say is i wanted Charles to stand up straight....that drives me crazy

I think the actor is doing a wonderful job humanizing Charles, however, I always remember him having excellent posture in his younger days. The overly sloped shoulders almost make him seem like he has spinal issues.

Do you think Charles suffered because Anne is just so naturally powerful and clever? He just seems so insipid compared to her.

[BitterApple]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Do you think Charles suffered because Anne is just so naturally powerful and clever? He just seems so insipid compared to her.

I think Anne is the son Phillip and Elizabeth always wanted and Charles knew it. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I think Anne is the son Phillip and Elizabeth always wanted and Charles knew it. 

My children watch a series called Invader Zim where the alien race simply elects the tallest beings on their planet as the leader. It reminds me how it is so asinine that Princess Anne is even placed behind her younger brothers in order of succession when she might be best suited to rule, though I do not know if she would want the crown.

Edited November 21, 2019 by qtpye