S15.E03: The Rupture

[Jynnan tonnix]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The first three episodes were a complete mess. I hope after the one week break things improve.

I will miss Rowena.

I am getting tired of watching Kaz all mopey.   Now that he has decided to sulk off into the sunset, if he ever decides to return, he better be all sunshine and rainbows.

Well, if he DOES show up all sunshine and rainbows, isn't that the signal for his final demise anyway?

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I liked this better than the last episode.  It was nice that a demon remembered that she could just snap necks, but then she forgot and decided to actually fight with Ketch.

I liked that Ol' Phogy was playing them all along and though I think Cas did the right thing in killing him, I am sad that he is dead, because I can only assume that heralds the imminent return of Jack.  And I preferred the demon.  Which is a weird thing to say.

Dean needs to get over himself.  Jack, and Jack alone, is responsible for Mary's death.  Cas holds about as much responsibility as Sam and Dean.  What real extra info did he have?  That Jack killed a snake?  Sam and Dean had also commented on his behavior and whatnot, so maybe Dean just feels guilty and is projecting.  That makes more sense to me and I just thought of that as I was typing, so maybe I feel a bit better.

I'm assuming we're getting at least a couple of weeks off from Cas.  Don't mind that.  Hope we just have a couple of nice MOTWs.  

Can't feel too bad about Rowena.  She's been helpful lately, but she has centuries of being evil behind her, so that's just the way life goes.  

And, oh yeah, Dean, Ol' Phogy becoming all powerful wouldn't be that easy to "deal with" and would have had a large body count.  I'm not the biggest Cas fan in the world (also not the biggest hater), but he was 100% right in this case.

I actually did enjoy this episode as well, and largely couldn't predict where they were going with it, but was glad that the whole "all the souls in Hell" thing seemed as though it was getting resolved, because a few Hunters against billions of souls is simply not feasible as a season-long standoff. 

When Belphegor came clean about his plan, I figured that at least that way we would have just one Big Bad, and that there would probably be some way to ultimately take him out (maybe with Amara's help or something), but in the end I was glad that this end was tied up, even though I was also sad to see Rowena go. I've actually liked her from the very beginning. 

In the end, I don't care as much as some here about all the retconning and such because I've pretty much always (at least over the last five years or so, since I was introduced to the pilot) watched each episode at face value, mostly only once,  and not gotten into the deeper aspects of fandom. With any luck, at least to my liking, getting rid of a bunch of extraneous characters and going back to whatever monsters are still out there could be a good, back-to-basics way to run out the final season. Of course, we still have Chuck and Amara out there, but maybe they can make up and find a way to run heaven properly again, Rowena could take charge of Hell, and everything go back to normal. I wouldn't find that unacceptable. But I don't like tension and violence, and really only started watching the show because I do enjoy supernatural-type fiction, then mostly kept watching because of Dean.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

It's not terribly bad writing, though. Projecting anger onto the wrong person - or on to the correct person, but too forcefully - is very believable to me in this situation. Dean is angry with everyone and everything and God and Cas and Jack and Sam and Rowena and his mom and.... And he can't handle it any more. It makes him less 'perfect' and more three dimensional.

And while they might not go there, in reality if I was around Dean when he's like this....I would be fleeing mindlessly. 

Dean is already the least "perfect" person on the show. If they want to make perfect characters three-dimensional, they have a plethora to pick from.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Dean was in the box, Jack could not have powered himself back up with Michael's grace. Thus he would not have the power to smite Mary with an angry thought.. He had the power to kill after eating some of Michael's Grace.

You're right.  I forgot that he used Michael's grace to power up with.  Although, I still maintain that if Jack powered up on MIchael's grace could escape the box, MIchael could escape the box.

But, I think if we're going to go back to root cause, it was bringing Jack back from the dead.  That should have never ever ever ever ever happened.  At all.  Not even a little.  And, that was what put his soul/morality in peril, also.  If he had been dead, they also wouldn't have had to worry about him powering up with Michael's grace no matter where Michael was.

[Bobcatkitten]

It was the best of the three so far but I found the Rowena death scene a little overdramatic. Stone me now I suppose. 

The Cas/Dean scene was sooo well acted. Jensen and Misha really made me feel the emotion from both of them. As a fan of Dean I wish he wasn't so harsh at that moment because Cas didn't actually do anything wrong in that particular instance. He didn't follow the plan because Belphegor didn't follow the plan. I wish Dean would have just said, 'yeah I'm still hurting over mom and it's going to take a while for me to trust you again' and they parted ways to give each other space. It still would accomplish the goal of keeping them apart but not be a complete character assassination on Dean. 

They sure are killing people off at a crisp pace - three last night.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Dean was in the box, Jack could not have powered himself back up with Michael's grace. Thus he would not have the power to smite Mary with an angry thought.. He had the power to kill after eating some of Michael's Grace.

And given what the story said, Michael couldn't have gotten out of the box because he was trapped in Dean's mind and in the Malak Box. So given the givens, I think Dean is projecting his guilt for not following through on what he believed/knew based in Billie's book what had  to be done.

I think his anger at Cas is justified and real and not projection.

If they stuck to what they write into their own damn canon, 95% of what's wrong with this show could be avoided.

[Bobcatkitten]

Also, I want to add - why was this the third freaking episode in broad daylight. It seriously has killed any intensity and suspense. This one could have been at night and it would have been much better. I mean they changd clothes for no apparent reason so why not? 

[gonzosgirrl]

Maybe the only thing besides Dean in a Henley that I liked about this episode what that they had Rowena emphasize that she wouldn't die for Dean or Sam or even for humanity, but that she believed in magic and prophesy (and maybe her chance to be Queen of Hell?) and that's why she had to do it. Melodramatic, but the kind of melodrama I can get behind, unlike the soap opera nonsense of Samwena or Mean!Dean.

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

His response was that they would have dealt with it

In fairness to Dean this has always been their go too.  It was Sam's go to when when he didn't want Dean to sacrifce himself.  

They're pretty good at dealing with Demons. 

Maybe Dean was looking at it as the lesser of two evils.  They had a choice.  One super powered demon or a billion angry ghosts.  Collateral damage has always been a part of this show, and there would be less with Bel. 

And did Cas make that decisions to stop Bel or for revenge for Jack. Dean has a right to question that.

Edited October 25, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

In fairness to Dean this has always been their go too.  It was Sam's go to when when he didn't want Dean to sacrifce himself.  

They're pretty good at dealing with Demons. 

Maybe Dean was looking at it as the lesser of two evils.  They had a choice.  One super powered demon or a billion angry ghosts.  Collateral damage has always been a part of this show, and there would be less with Bel. 

Plus it was all in the heat of the moment after Cas stood there woobyfying instead of speaking up when he first re-appeared. The pregnant pauses could've been born, grown up and had little baby pauses of their own before he started saying anything helpful or mitigating.

Edited October 25, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

In fairness to Dean this has always been their go too.  It was Sam's go to when when he didn't want Dean to sacrifce himself. 

I realize that. But, Cas was dealing with what he thought would have been a bigger problem.  I don't think he was wrong. And, even if he was wrong, I don't think he was wrong on a grand proportion. He didn't even know that Rowena was even thinking about sacrificing herself.  

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe Dean was looking at it as the lesser of two evils.  They had a choice.  One super powered demon or a billion angry ghosts.  Collateral damage has always been a part of this show, and there would be less with Bel. 

And, I think Cas thought the ghosts were the lesser of two evils.  But, in a way it doesn't matter, because what's done is done.  They have all made heat of the moment decisions that might not have been right.

[ahrtee]

TBH, I knew Rowena was going to sacrifice herself at Sam's hands as soon as I saw Ruth's tweet about the "twist on the prophecy."  I figured it meant Sam was going to kill Rowena except they'd make it into a good thing where they'd both be heroes (Chuck forbid either of them would end up looking bad.)  Not going into BvJ here, because that would be too easy.

38 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe Dean was looking at it as the lesser of two evils.  They had a choice.  One super powered demon or a billion angry ghosts.  Collateral damage has always been a part of this show, and there would be less with Bel. 

At first I agreed with Cas, that they couldn't let one demon have all that power (after all, they spent all that time trying to stop Cas from eating all the souls in Purgatory because it would make him a "god").  But thinking about it from Dean's POV, well, several billion ghosts all over the world?  No matter how many hunters were still around to fight, there was no way to contain that.  There would be massive casualties everywhere, and he would (of course) feel guilty for having unleashed all that (true or not).  But one supercharged demon?  Well, they'd already taken on Lucifer (many, many, MANY times) and all the other archangels, supercharged Cas, Amara and Chuck himself, so I can see where he might think that was at least more possible to stop.  

I do think Cas should have spoken up sooner and Dean should have listened, but they were both caught up in their own angst(s?)--Cas over Jack, Dean over Mary--and seeing only the bad things that led up to them.  So Cas saw that Dean had put Sam and Mary above Jack (and therefore, him and his feelings) and Dean thought that Cas had favored Jack over them; so in *both* their minds they felt betrayed and unimportant.  The only thing I hated is that it was framed as Dean being mean and Cas being noble and sad.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe the only thing besides Dean in a Henley that I liked about this episode what that they had Rowena emphasize that she wouldn't die for Dean or Sam or even for humanity, but that she believed in magic and prophesy (and maybe her chance to be Queen of Hell?) and that's why she had to do it. Melodramatic, but the kind of melodrama I can get behind, unlike the soap opera nonsense of Samwena or Mean!Dean.

Even though, as I said, I do believe there's this lame whiteboard full of names in Dabb's office that they're all checking off as they eliminate guest stars/recurring characters (Kevin-check!, Ketch-check!), I wasn't quite convinced that Rowena was gone for good yet. Having chatted with a pal, we both agree that it was a wee bit too soon to eliminate a character like Rowena, and wouldn't it be hella hysterical if it was all a ruse on her part and she was setting herself up to do the exact same thing Demon Jack-Adjacent was trying to do - become ruler of Hell?

After all, we only have Rowena's word that she'd eventually disintegrate or whatever she claimed would happen. Yet she was all full o' souls, just like DJ-A was aiming for. So essentially, if that happened, she'd take on the frenemy Crowley role, just with a lot more power.

I thought it was really OOC for Rowena to suddenly fall to pieces when she was attempting her spell to shore up the perimeter. After all, she didn't start boo-hoo'ing when Chuckles was dying and the world was going to end.

And then suddenly she's so self-sacrificing? Sorry, her behavior didn't compute. It would make a lot more sense if it was all an act. That would be more in character for Rowena.

Not saying that's what will happen, just that her behavior in this episode was really off. But logic and good story-telling don't have a lot to do with this show anymore.

[KayCordingly]

My interpretation of Dean's anger at Cas was that Dean was becoming increasingly resentful that Cas was all "oh poor, poor Jack, Jack was like a son to me, I lost my son," et. while like not even acknowledging Dean's loss of Mary because of Jack. I mean I don't think I could hold it together as well as Dean if someone killed my mom and my best friend spent all his time mourning the loss of her killer.

[KayCordingly]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

He didn't follow the plan because Belphegor didn't follow the plan.

This would have been such a great line for Cas to say.

[Bobcatkitten]

8 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

My interpretation of Dean's anger at Cas was that Dean was becoming increasingly resentful that Cas was all "oh poor, poor Jack, Jack was like a son to me, I lost my son," et. while like not even acknowledging Dean's loss of Mary because of Jack. I mean I don't think I could hold it together as well as Dean if someone killed my mom and my best friend spent all his time mourning the loss of her killer.

I hadn't thought of it like that. Wow. Cause accident or not Jack is Mary's killer. 

[tennisgurl]

Welcome to Supernatural season 15, where everything’s made up and the continuity doesn’t matter! And if your not into the pointless and gratuitous suffering and deaths of supporting characters...it’s looking like this might not be the season for you. 

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Even though, as I said, I do believe there's this lame whiteboard full of names in Dabb's office that they're all checking off as they eliminate guest stars/recurring characters (Kevin-check!, Ketch-check!), I wasn't quite convinced that Rowena was gone for good yet.

I agree with this and the rest of your post - I questioned much the same thing in the Speculation thread. It really does seem too soon, especially when they have almost no other supernatural help available to them.

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with this and the rest of your post - I questioned much the same thing in the Speculation thread. It really does seem too soon, especially when they have almost no other supernatural help available to them.

I'm sure Jack will be back shortly.  

And not that anybody cares, of course, but I loved the first 3 seasons when they didn't have any supernatural help (unless you count Sam's visions and his one bout of telekenisis).  I  will not apologize for not being able to spell that.  It doesn't come up that much in my life.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Katy M

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm sure Jack will be back shortly.  

Ugh. I think I must have mentally blocked that.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ugh. I think I must have mentally blocked that.

Lucky you!  Sorry to have ruined it.

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And not that anybody cares, of course, but I loved the first 3 seasons when they didn't have any supernatural help (unless you count Sam's visions and his one bout of telekenisis).  I  will not apologize for not being able to spell that.  It doesn't come up that much in my life.

Me too. One of the biggest problems with the show of late has been that there are really no stakes, especially the joke they've made out of death (small d). That, and the magical weapons that turn up in the nick of time. Looking at you, magical Men of Letters egg.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with this and the rest of your post - I questioned much the same thing in the Speculation thread. It really does seem too soon, especially when they have almost no other supernatural help available to them.

I watched this one live last night and forgot I'd set it up to record. Something was nagging at my brain, so I went back to look for it, and there it was.

When Rowena is sitting in the crypt after supposedly falling apart, she's reading her grimoire, and when Sam comes over and asks if she's found anything, she's looking at a page with a woman wearing a crown and tentacle like things either going out of her or into her. She then snaps the page shut and tells him no.

Of course, she could have been looking at the spell she described to Sam toward the end, and it's as simple as that. Taking the souls into her, returning them to Hell, like she said. But the picture was of a woman who looked very regal, so I think she was telling the truth only up to a point - that being, she won't die, she will instead become the Queen of Hell. She probably thought Sam wouldn't help her if she told him that part.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

When Rowena is sitting in the crypt after supposedly falling apart, she's reading her grimoire, and when Sam comes over and asks if she's found anything, she's looking at a page with a woman wearing a crown and tentacle like things either going out of her or into her. She then snaps the page shut and tells him no.

Of course, she could have been looking at the spell she described to Sam toward the end, and it's as simple as that. Taking the souls into her, returning them to Hell, like she said. But the picture was of a woman who looked very regal, so I think she was telling the truth only up to a point - that being, she won't die, she will instead become the Queen of Hell. She probably thought Sam wouldn't help her if she told him that part.

I missed that, but I was honestly at least half expecting her to yell "Suckers!" as she was walking towards them with the souls going into them.  So, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she pops up in a couple of episodes as this season's big bad.  

When has Rowena ever been selfless?

[Commando Cody]

I was thinking, after Rowena sacrificed herself into the pit, that it was out of character for her.  I don't think the writers understand the concept of character, except for easy ways to kill the characters off.

We already know that Jack isn't gone for good.  I'm one of the few who liked Jack. I just didn't like the way he was written and messes he would get himself into. Some of them were so predictable - almost like watching after school specials. 

The lack of continuity at the beginning of the episode made me uncomfortable. I thought it got better towards the end.  For whatever reason, they kept Ketch around. At least they finally killed him.  It seemed like an easy way to write him out though.  The writers seem especially lazy.  I guess it's a lame duck season for them.  I did think this was the best of the three episodes this season. It's not saying much, but it was a step up from the other two. 

[KayCordingly]

55 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

For whatever reason, they kept Ketch around. At least they finally killed him.  It seemed like an easy way to write him out though.  The writers seem especially lazy.

Totally agree. When the demon pulled his heart out, the first thing I said was "why did they even bother bringing him back then?"

[trudysmom]

This was so bad, so so bad.  The only time I had a flicker of interest in anything going on was the final scene with Dean and Cas.  Both hurting, neither able to give or receive comfort yet, especially from each other.   I did feel a bit bad for Cas when he smited NotJack the Bdemon.  (I don't even care enough to look up names).  The face he was looking at was Jack's, that had to hurt.  

Someone upthread said Dean reverted to being a self-righteous jerk.  Self-righteous, maybe, he's always pretty sure he's right, but jerk?  Nope, respectfully disagree.

[tessathereaper]

32 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

This was so bad, so so bad.  The only time I had a flicker of interest in anything going on was the final scene with Dean and Cas.  Both hurting, neither able to give or receive comfort yet, especially from each other.   I did feel a bit bad for Cas when he smited NotJack the Bdemon.  (I don't even care enough to look up names).  The face he was looking at was Jack's, that had to hurt.  

Someone upthread said Dean reverted to being a self-righteous jerk.  Self-righteous, maybe, he's always pretty sure he's right, but jerk?  Nope, respectfully disagree.

Well Dean is usually right, most of the time if they'd listened to him in the first place things would get to whereever they end up.  IMO being right isn't the same as being self-righteous.

[appositival]

So let me see if I've got this straight. Belphegor absorbs half the escaped souls then mouses into the empty beardy daemon meatsack so that Cas thinks he (and the first trump) are baked. Then Rowena absorbs the other half of the souls and makes a dramatic exit to join up with Belphegor in hell. I've heard that souls are power once or twice.

I guess we'll never know what might have happened since they are both dead. I mean you can't come back once you’re dead, right?

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I missed that, but I was honestly at least half expecting her to yell "Suckers!" as she was walking towards them with the souls going into them.  So, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she pops up in a couple of episodes as this season's big bad.  

When has Rowena ever been selfless?

That's pretty much exactly what not!Jack did. I'd like to say these writers aren't hacks enough to do that twice in one episode, but...

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

For whatever reason, they kept Ketch around

It seems like they killed him just so the demon (no clue what her name was) could get his phone and trick Dean into telling her where they were? I admit my eyes glazed over more than once so I may well be mis-remembering that.

Edited October 26, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Ria]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems like they killed him just so the demon (no clue what her name was) could get his phone and trick Dean into telling her where they were? I admit my eyes glazed over more than once so I may well be mis-remembering that.

Yes. And when she said to Cas something  about Cas not knowing what Belphagor is, for a second I though he was going to turn out to be something specially powerfully evil, knowing about Lilith’s horn and that it was stored in a case with an Enochian spell among other things. But no sooner did she say it then Belphagor was dead. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Ria

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, PAForrest said:

But the picture was of a woman who looked very regal, so I think she was telling the truth only up to a point - that being, she won't die, she will instead become the Queen of Hell. She probably thought Sam wouldn't help her if she told him that part.

Which would fit with Dabb's M.O. of having Sam screw up while trying to do something right. If Rowena does come back as the Big Bad as @Katy M theorizes, it will then be Sam's fault.

Can't wait for that to happen. *sarcasm*

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is already the least "perfect" person on the show. I

Taken to "Bitch vs Jerk."

Warning: I got a good rant going on over there. It is definitely in the the writers are being crappy vein, but some might find it prickle inducing. You have been warned.

[SueB]

[Cambion]

I had to think about this episode a little bit. (I also had to think about the reactions to it I've been reading.)

My first thoughts are that it was a good solid episode.  Fight me! 😉

Rather than the wandering off point like the last two episodes they stayed on target.  Put the shit together and got The Thing done.

I'm not bothered by the old characters, i.e. Ketch, being brought back for his demise.  Seriously, who didn't expect that would happen in the last season?  If you didn't, or don't get it then I hate to break it to you, but you're seriously naive.  So, this is going to happen, with regularity, we just have to deal with it.

I like that Rowena has finally redeemed herself.  Her whole character arc has been about that redemption.  Contrast her initial episodes where she actively sought revenge on Crowley, then Dean and Sam, then she was only out for herself, pursuing power, to being forced to help Sam and Charlie 'save' Dean, to reluctantly helping, to actually enjoying being with the boys, to treating them her own sons (or as with Sam, as a Cougar, but I digress).  And if that trip down memory lane isn't enough, consider her conversation with MememtoDean in Regarding Dean.  She lays it all out there.

Anyway, I like that she was able to give Sam an out as well.  He wasn't killing her because she broke bad.  He was killing her for 'the grreaterr guud".  He will be able to get over that.

Anyway, I like that they gave her a heroic ending.  And, frankly, I half expect her to resurface as the Queen of Hell, but, you know....

Belphagor.  Yup, knew there had to be an ulterior motive, and it was predictable, given the history of demons on this show, but enjoyable none the less.  It also gave Cas a reason to take him out which we know he's been itching to do, but has too big a moral stick up his nether regions to do without proper provocation.  Also, he completely trashed Jack's body.  That I didn't expect, but perhaps now Cas can start to get over Jack.  (I hope!  Because I'm still not a big Jack fan, like, at all.  So if we don't see him for a while, or ever, I'm down with that.)

Sam, the god connection.  Yeah, this is a little lame, however, it's not unexpected.  If there's going to be anything like that, it will be Sam.  And as tv shows go these things are replayed season after season.  This is nothing new.  If you know anything about the Star Trek universe, you know that every conceivable plot line has been done in each incarnation at least twice.  That's just how it goes on long running show.  And that's the way SPN has been.  Did we really think that was going to change cause it's the last season? 

Okay, Dean.  While he didn't DO a lot, He had a lot of good character moments.  And, really, the way the tasks were split up this time was completely in character for each of them.  Cas needed to go with Belphagor, he was the only one strong enough to stop him once Bel started sucking in the souls.  He'd have chewed Dean up and spit him out if Dean had been there at that moment.  And in Dean's mind, if you watch his expression when they were making plans, he was taking the 'dangerous' job because he would never allow anyone else to stand between him and the bad shit.  So, really in character for him to take the job he perceived as the riskiest.  So this time it didn't turn out to actually be the riskiest, but best laid plans and all that.

I know some here would really like to see him be the big hero every week, hell, so would I, but that's not realistic.  There are a lot of characters on this show these days and no one of them can have the spotlight all episode every week.  So, Dean wasn't the action King this week.  Cool.  He did get some important things out.  As for him enumerating his reasons to Cas, "it's only been a few days, you lied to me, etc".  Do we really need to hear it?  I don't.  And we're all talking about those reasons so doesn't seem like the fans in general really need to hear it.  Is Dean somebody who's gonna break down sobbing and throw things amid accusations of how Cas hurt him? No.  Both he and Cas know what happened; they know each other well enough to know the score without writing it on the board.  They don't need to scream it at each other.  Would it be satisfying for the viewers?  Maybe.  But then we'd probably all complain that the writers were spoon feeding us, patronizing us.  "Weeee knooooow,"  and we do. So, we can either have our cake or eat it, I guess.

I will admit that at the end I was hoping Dean would reach out to Cas and not let him leave.  Not so much for Cas' sake as for Dean's.  He's just giving himself something to beat himself up with later, but that, too, is completely within character for him. Regrettable, because that would be an incredible growth point for the character, but in a time of super stress when all he wants to do is lash out and kill everything in sight, he's really not going to be doing much growing as a person.  So, I can live with that.

I dunno, I still think there's a lot of laziness on the part of the writers in a lot of ways.  But sometimes I think they rely on viewers to read their minds.  For instance, the ghosts being visible and able to run round in the day -- yeah it's creepier at night, but that's a Hollywood thing.  If you've done any real paranormal research/ghost hunting you'll know that's not the only time, or even the best time, to hunt ghosts.

"

From Top 10 Paranormal Myths

2. Ghosts Only Come Out at Night

There are a lot of reasons to ghost hunt at night: The world quiets down as the day fades away; some locations only let you enter after the close of daytime business hours; it is much creepier at night; and, most importantly, it’s the best time to play with your sweet night vision camera! But if you want to chase ghosts, you can just as effectively do it during the day, according to most paranormal researchers. In fact, it might even be a more effective time because that’s when the dead were probably most alive.

"

From: https://www.travelchannel.com/interests/haunted/articles/top-10-paranormal-myths

So, yeah, perhaps that's what they were going for writing the episode, or to try to show that these were very powerful ghosts since they didn't need darkness, whatever the case. Because I personally don't know that it was intentional on the writer's part, but it still works, and I feel like I wasn't being spoon fed.  I mean seriously, are their people who watch this show that aren't familiar with the paranormal beyond the canon?  I mean really, because I haven't seen anyone who isn't.  So, maybe they're giving us the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe it's just lazy, I don't know.  But I watch because it's entertaining to me and I choose not to spend my time being offended by everything.

Sorry if I'm coming off as preachy, I don't mean to be telling anyone else what to think or feel.  I'm just expressing my opinion.  Because, truth be told, I was attracted to this board because of the in depth conversation about characters and plots, etc., but by the end of last season the negativity was really getting to me.  That's why I took a break.  I missed it and couldn't find anywhere else with as smart of people and conversations and if I have to run into any more slash fans I will puke.  So I came back.  But I kinda feel like everybody wants to pick the fly shit out of the pepper now that it's the last season.  Dont get me wrong: You are absolutely entitled to do that!  I will still read your posts and find them useful.  I just want everyone to understand that I'm not here to blow sunshine up your skirts, I'm just not going to hold back on my positivity because of peer pressure.  And I'm not saying the things I am to piss anyone off or anything else.  I'm just going to be the one who see's things a bit differently and I hope you guys will be okay with that.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Which would fit with Dabb's M.O. of having Sam screw up while trying to do something right. If Rowena does come back as the Big Bad as @Katy M theorizes, it will then be Sam's fault.

Not really. They had to do something.  And, unless there's something we don't know she could have technically just stabbed herself.

[juppschmitz]

20 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems like they killed him just so the demon (no clue what her name was) could get his phone and trick Dean into telling her where they were? 

See this is what's wrong with Dabb. 

He makes the baddie trick the hero and let him look stupid, where what I want to see is the HERO being clever and tricking the baddie.

Guess I'll have to rewatch Leverage for that. (Which has the added bonus of having Christian Kane as a regular.) (And Mark Sheppard as a recurring character.)

Edited October 26, 2019 by juppschmitz

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, Cambion said:

I know some here would really like to see him be the big hero every week, hell, so would I, but that's not realistic.  There are a lot of characters on this show these days and no one of them can have the spotlight all episode every week.  So, Dean wasn't the action King this week.  Cool.  He did get some important things out.  As for him enumerating his reasons to Cas, "it's only been a few days, you lied to me, etc".  Do we really need to hear it?  I don't. 

I think that you're mistaken about the first sentence. I think that some here would just like to see better and more balanced and cohesive writing out of Dabb and co-but especially out of Dabb and Berens. Any thing else I'd have to say, I'd  have to take to the B vs J thread and, tbh, I'm just done with the show and its' writers for now, and need a break from all internet activity concerning it and them now.

10 hours ago, Cambion said:

He did get some important things out.  As for him enumerating his reasons to Cas, "it's only been a few days, you lied to me, etc".  Do we really need to hear it?  I don't. 

I'm just curious as to what important things you saw Dean get out in this episode, because I got nothing on that front from it and the reason for that is that I really DO need to hear Dean enumerating the reasons for his anger because then we'll know that his anger, hurt, pain, and frustration within this situation(and if we're lucky, within his lifetime) isn't just going to be swept under the carpet again because another character's anger, hurt, and pain is more important to the writers and only Dean's full attention to it will do. And I'm trying real hard not to make this B vs J also. I'd just like, for once, to hear Dean open up fully to someone about his anger. And I know that it's IC for him to say nothing about it to those he's closest to, but I've also always felt that he used to see Cas as more of an equal to himself in that regard and  might have been more willing to open up to Cas about things than even Sam in this particular instance. Oh well, guess Berens decided to make Cas more Sam-like in that regard now.

10 hours ago, Cambion said:

But I kinda feel like everybody wants to pick the fly shit out of the pepper now that it's the last season.  Dont get me wrong: You are absolutely entitled to do that!  I will still read your posts and find them useful.  I just want everyone to understand that I'm not here to blow sunshine up your skirts, I'm just not going to hold back on my positivity because of peer pressure.  And I'm not saying the things I am to piss anyone off or anything else.  I'm just going to be the one who see's things a bit differently and I hope you guys will be okay with that.

Well, since it's the last season we're all just hoping for the best for our favorites; maybe hoping to see things that they've rarely shown us or portrayed about some of the characters, since this is our last year and our last chance at something like that.

And IMO, the only ones who must be okay with your posts on this board are the mods. Other posters can take them as they will. Opinions, loves, hates, likes, dislikes-they all vary too greatly even here to hope that everyone is okay with your posts. Just go for it and don't worry about what anyone but the mods think about your posts(and make sure they're in the right thread)

That's what I try to do anyway.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems like they killed him just so the demon (no clue what her name was) could get his phone and trick Dean into telling her where they were? I admit my eyes glazed over more than once so I may well be mis-remembering that.

Why wouldn't she know where they were?  Didn't everybody (ghosts and demons, which would include her) come out of the same rupture?

[starfishka]

All am gonna say about this episode is that it showed ME (once again) that Jensen is a much better actor than the rest of them/ than people realize. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Why wouldn't she know where they were?  Didn't everybody (ghosts and demons, which would include her) come out of the same rupture?

Your guess is as good as mine (mine is crappy writing and the notion that none of these writers pay any mind to anyone else's scripts but their own),  but that's what Berens put on the screen. 

Considering who she 'tricked' I could hazard another guess as to why, but that's for another thread.

Edited October 26, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

On 10/25/2019 at 8:02 AM, Katy M said:

Can't feel too bad about Rowena.  She's been helpful lately, but she has centuries of being evil behind her, so that's just the way life goes. 

Yeah, I'm sad because I'll miss her, but her death after hundreds of years of mayhem and ruthless ambition isn't tragic. She had a good run. Seemed kind of over the top that Sam was practically weeping over her, but I guess he's always been a little delicate.

I get why Dean is angry, but I'm also sick of watching him snarl at people all the time. Like, not terrible character development but kind of terrible entertainment. I don't watch SPN to watch someone turn into a bitter old man. That's so relentlessly depressing.

Just don't care about Old Phogey or Cas and their fight in Abandoned Hell. There weren't really any stakes. Everybody knew Old Phogey was playing them (what else would he have been doing?), and his power grab was actually kind of anti-climactic given that at first, his cryptic references to Dean's past in Hell and how much he himself looooooved Hell made it seem like much creepier stuff might be going on with him than he was letting no. But nope, just who he said he was after all.

The most scared I got was when I thought they might be bringing Lucifer back with that incantation on the box. That brought a genuine shudder.

Hopefully they will start having more night-time scenes. It's not just about daylight not being scary, it's also about the atmosphere. There used to be a kind of cozy/creepy atmosphere to the show, and it feels really bleached out like this. The bright light feels too sterile to me somehow.

Like others, I think this was the strongest episode of the season, but that's kind of damning it with faint praise.

I also am not a fan of bringing characters back just to kill them. Just because the show is ending doesn't mean every side character needs to die or otherwise get some pat ending. There can be a sense that the universe of the show "lives on" even if Sam and Dean's show is over. Hell, Sam and Dean themselves can live on! The show's world and even Sam and Dean as characters should feel larger than what we see on screen, that's what art is about, that's what it means to breathe life into a story or character. The show used to do that extraordinarily well, which is why it has the fandom that it does, why it can inspire endless fanfics. That was actually SPN's extraordinary strength. I hope that the show keeps sight of that, doesn't erase that by shrinking everything down to fit the stupid metaphor of God-the-writer and life-the-book.

Ah well, I'll be watching to the end no matter what. L'cheim.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:06 PM, PAForrest said:

When Rowena is sitting in the crypt after supposedly falling apart, she's reading her grimoire, and when Sam comes over and asks if she's found anything, she's looking at a page with a woman wearing a crown and tentacle like things either going out of her or into her. She then snaps the page shut and tells him no.

Of course, she could have been looking at the spell she described to Sam toward the end, and it's as simple as that. Taking the souls into her, returning them to Hell, like she said. But the picture was of a woman who looked very regal, so I think she was telling the truth only up to a point - that being, she won't die, she will instead become the Queen of Hell. She probably thought Sam wouldn't help her if she told him that part.

I caught that too and agree with you. I don't think we'll see her again for awhile because they want us to think she's dead but when we do she will be the Queen of Hell.

[catrox14]

So, upon a rewatch I still largely dislike this episode.

Something I noticed when Cas killed Belphagor is that I'm not so sure it was entirely based on Belph's betrayal.

I think it was far more vengence than anything else. He has hated him from the moment he saw him in Jack's body. He'd been looking for a reason all along. And how did Cas have the power to smite Belphy to a crisp when he couldn't smite much of anything recently.

My new theory (no spoilers) is that Cas' anger and desire to kill Belphy is what gave him the power to smite him to a rack of bones and ash. And I really don't think it had much at all to do with Belphy's plan. Which is why I now think Cas left because he knows he screwed up the plan and it was out of vengeance. Otherwise why wouldn't he stay to hash the whole thing out?

To me, Dean has actually said much meaner things to Cas like calling him a baby in a trenchcoat and they managed to work it out.. I think Cas left because he feels guilty AF about Mary. So to me, that "break up" is all on Cas.

[Ria]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So, upon a rewatch I still largely dislike this episode.

Something I noticed when Cas killed Belphagor is that I'm not so sure it was entirely based on Belph's betrayal.

I think it was far more vengence than anything else. He has hated him from the moment he saw him in Jack's body. He'd been looking for a reason all along. And how did Cas have the power to smite Belphy to a crisp when he couldn't smite much of anything recently.

My new theory (no spoilers) is that Cas' anger and desire to kill Belphy is what gave him the power to smite him to a rack of bones and ash. And I really don't think it had much at all to do with Belphy's plan. Which is why I now think Cas left because he knows he screwed up the plan and it was out of vengeance. Otherwise why wouldn't he stay to hash the whole thing out?

To me, Dean has actually said much meaner things to Cas like calling him a baby in a trenchcoat and they managed to work it out.. I think Cas left because he feels guilty AF about Mary. So to me, that "break up" is all on Cas.

I think it was pretty clear Cas was trying to stick to Dean’s plan and work with Belphagor to do so up until he realized Belphagor had tricked them. Once he realized that Belphagor’s plan all along was to use the souls to make himself ruler of hell, he had no choice but to kill him before he became too powerful. He began explaining to Dean but Dean jumped all over him and refused to listen and started ranting about Cas always screwing up. Who would stick around after that? 

[tessathereaper]

Just now, Ria said:

I think it was pretty clear Cas was trying to stick to Dean’s plan and work with Belphagor to do so up until he realized Belphagor had tricked them. Once he realized that Belphagor’s plan all along was to use the souls to make himself ruler of hell, he had no choice but to kill him before he became too powerful. He began explaining to Dean but Dean jumped all over him and refused to listen and started ranting about Cas always screwing up. Who would stick around after that? 

I don't know someone who is interested in getting out his side of the story?  I have literally NEVER left a conversation/argument ALLOWING the other person to have the wrong idea about what happened, whether they jumped to conclusions "unfairly" or not.  That sort of stuff mainly happens on badly written tv shows.  Sort of like the "misunderstood over heard phone calls" where the person only listens long enough to misunderstand but doesn't stay for the rest of the conversation, where the next sentence usually makes it clear they are misunderstanding.

Also considering who they've gone up against, I don't think they'd have had huge amounts of trouble with Balphegor, better one guy than millions of little ones all over the world.

[Cambion]

On 10/26/2019 at 10:37 AM, Myrelle said:

I think that you're mistaken about the first sentence. I think that some here would just like to see better and more balanced and cohesive writing out of Dabb and co-but especially out of Dabb and Berens. Any thing else I'd have to say, I'd  have to take to the B vs J thread and, tbh, I'm just done with the show and its' writers for now, and need a break from all internet activity concerning it and them now.

Perhaps I am wrong, I don't know everyone's thoughts, but I think it's more an exaggeration based on the fact that I don't see how any of our complaints will have any effect on the writing.  Since you all agree that it has been going for years -- which I can only understand after the fact as I'm only a little over a year into this fandom -- and nothing has changed, well, I've not given up, but I realistically have no expectations of change and will take what I can get and be happy for it.  But then, that is the theme of my life and quite natural for me.

Ah, I could go on, but I don't really want to hurt any ones feelings or get into any arguments.  I just see things differently, and since I'm the noob, and I don't want to rock the boat.

 As for your second point, I want to reiterate something I said early on here.  I get Dean because my life has many parallels to the character's.  So, what I saw for him, was he had Cas' full attention and was taken seriously enough to warrant a reaction from him.  That's a lot for someone who is just supposed to be there when needed; is always taken for granted; is ignored unless someone wants something from them; who's opinion and warnings aren't taken seriously only to ultimately be swept under the rug after proven correct....it's not about what you can say, it's about the fact that someone acknowledges your existence beyond what you can do for them. THAT is a Big Deal (tm).  I see now that I must be reading too much of my own experiences in to the character.  

However, I do want to add:

CASTIEL
Good things do happen, Dean.

DEAN
Not in my experience.

Probably the most telling thing Dean has ever said.

Anyway, enough of the armchair (and hard fought and won through years of therapy) psychology.  😛

Good rest of the weekend!

[Bali]

On 10/26/2019 at 2:00 AM, Cambion said:

 But I kinda feel like everybody wants to pick the fly shit out of the pepper   I'm just going to be the one who see's things a bit differently and I hope you guys will be okay with that.

Well, that does sound like more fun than what my job wants me to do today. However, I think you made some great points. I'm okay with this episode. I would LOVE for Rowena to become Queen of Hell, but I have doubts that it will happen because I've lost confidence in the writers at this point. I would also love for her to not only be Queen of Hell, but for Billie, the Empty, the Angels and a lot of others to come back- team up- and take out Chuck. It could be an epic battle set to Bad Company. And for the life of me, I refuse to look forward to that, because I don't think it will happen.

On 10/26/2019 at 12:54 PM, Katy M said:

Why wouldn't she know where they were?  Didn't everybody (ghosts and demons, which would include her) come out of the same rupture?

I believe that she was already topside. She hired Ketch to kill Demon Jack before he even knew about the rift. But that answer gives a new problem- Demon Jack never wanted to leave Hell, so why would she need to hire Ketch to kill him? OK- the official answer to these questions is, "Because it was in the script." That's the stock answer to plot holes in our house.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Bali said:

I would also love for her to not only be Queen of Hell, but for Billie, the Empty, the Angels and a lot of others to come back- team up- and take out Chuck

The problem with this is, where do the Winchesters fit in an ending like that? I want Dean and Sam to be (equally) the heroes of this story, especially now at the end.

[Bali]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The problem with this is, where do the Winchesters fit in an ending like that? I want Dean and Sam to be (equally) the heroes of this story, especially now at the end.

They're in there fighting too. They are the ones that take out several demons. Or they distract Chuck. At this point- 2 mortals aren't going to take out God. They're going to need help with this. The whole thing has gone too far. Death will reap God. Good Death said so. (Billie is just so-so Death- sorry) Or because of the silly tether- Dean has to kill Sam. Or someone else has to kill Sam in order to kill Chuck. 

I don't know that at this point- there is a way for the boys to be the only heroes in this one. I wish it were true, but I don't see it. And that is partially why I dislike the Chuck is God and an ass storyline so much. I don't see 2 lone mortals taking down the creator of Heaven, Hell and Earth and the solar system. 

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, Bali said:

She hired Ketch to kill Demon Jack before he even knew about the rift.

Before he knew about the rift doesn't mean before the rift existed.