S21.E04: The Burden of Our Choices

[dttruman]

Episode description from Googling "Law and Order SVU season 21 episode 4,

The Burden of Our Choices"

Rollins clashes with the parents of a teenage runaway; the squad comes together for a significant event.

Credits from Fandom:

Mariska Hargitay as Captain Olivia Benson

Kelli Giddish as Detective Amanda Rollins

Ice-T as Sergeant Odafin Tutuola

Peter Scanavino as A.D.A. Dominick Carisi, Jr.

Recurring cast

Peter Hermann as Attorney Trevor Langan

Ryan Buggle as Noah Porter-Benson

Zuleikha Robinson as Bureau Chief Vanessa Hadid

Jamie Gray Hyder as Vice Officer Katriona Tamin

Demore Barnes as Deputy Chief Christian Garland

Guest cast

Lucy Walters as Tammy Miller

Kira McLean as Evangeline Miller

Rebecca Gibel as Haley Brogan

Ashley Alvarez as Dee Simmons

Julie Potter as Aunt Betty

Stanley Simons as Isaac

Sean Shannon as Oxy Guy

Kedren Spencer as ER Nurse

Brittany Joy as Clinic Nurse

Scott Eliasoph as Lawyer

[Xeliou66]

I am not excited for this episode. It looks like it will be very preachy and heavy handed plus it’s apparently Rollins centric and I’m not a Rollins fan. This season has been decent so far, better than I expected it to be, but I’m afraid that will end with this episode. I hope I’m wrong. 

[dttruman]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I am not excited for this episode. It looks like it will be very preachy and heavy handed plus it’s apparently Rollins centric and I’m not a Rollins fan. This season has been decent so far, better than I expected it to be, but I’m afraid that will end with this episode. I hope I’m wrong. 

Tamara Tunie is guest starring in this one. I wonder if Warner is going to have a major personality change the way Cabot did in her last appearance on SVU, Sunk Cost Fallacy?

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, dttruman said:

Tamara Tunie is guest starring in this one. I wonder if Warner is going to have a major personality change the way Cabot did in her last appearance on SVU, Sunk Cost Fallacy?

No Warner is not in this episode. She’s guest starring in episode 6, not in this one.

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

No Warner is not in this episode. She’s guest starring in episode 6, not in this one.

My bad again. I got ahead of myself again.

[dttruman]

I don't know about anybody else but I think they are trying to make Tamin, a female Amaro. I think they are making her too efficient right now and she has a hair trigger temper too,  when it comes to perps.

[dttruman]

Looks like it is going to be a pure propaganda episode and Ohio is the evil state along with making the parents over zealous with their religious beliefs are also evil or misguided.

[ams1001]

On 10/15/2019 at 6:20 PM, Xeliou66 said:

It looks like it will be very preachy

Even the girl's name is on point - Evangeline

[incandescent]

I'm glad that SVU found its marbles again after losing them last year, having Liv bludgeon Rollins and various Victims Of The Week with pro-choice rhetoric out of nowhere.

[Zoe]

Just let Trevor and Benson hook up already. They never put him on the bad guy's side anymore.

[theredhead77]

Loved it. NY looking out for a rape victim and standing up to the absurdity of states trying to dictate what other states can and cannot do. I'm glad Evangeline was able to get the abortion she wanted and that the courts stood for her autonomy. I'm not shocked at all that the OH DA only cared about stopping the abortion but not charging the rapist.

[dttruman]

5 minutes ago, Zoe said:

Just let Trevor and Benson hook up already. They never put him on the bad guy's side anymore.

Is it me or did he just stand around most of the time after he said he was representing Evangline?

8 minutes ago, incandescent said:

I'm glad that SVU found its marbles again after losing them last year, having Liv bludgeon Rollins and various Victims Of The Week with pro-choice rhetoric out of nowhere.

This episode was design 'not' to make Benson the preachy one. They had so many other characters doing that.

[incandescent]

7 minutes ago, dttruman said:

This episode was design 'not' to make Benson the preachy one. They had so many other characters doing that.

The cops standing around on soapboxes in a circle to clunkily declare their personal points of view on whatever contentious issue is topical that week is a pillar of SVU.

[dttruman]

I thought the overall format was a good idea, but when they chose to use extremes to enhance their bias point of view when it came to this subject, it was a little over the top. If they could of explored it from an objective side, I think maybe both sides could have found some common ground.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah this was about as bad as I expected. 

It was extremely cliched, preachy and didactic, with cardboard characters and lots of heavy handed rhetoric. They used extreme scenarios and views instead of trying to have a reasonable discussion about the abortion issue.

While I understood the points they were trying to make, using an extreme scenario of an Ohio DA trying to arrest Manhattan detectives and DA’s made the episode very unrealistic IMO, I don’t believe that some small town DA would have the power or the support to try to do all of that, not even anti abortion right wing politicians would try to pull a stunt like that off IMO.

And the Ohio DA was a walking cliche and felt like a parody of anti abortion fruitcakes, I like the actor who played the role, I remember him as the ME on CSI Miami for one, but the character was more of a caricature than anything. And I didn’t buy that he would suddenly grow a conscience and charge Jim with rape after a conversation with Carisi that had nothing to do with the case. The revelation of Carisi’s mom having an abortion was weird and out of left field, again I understood their point, that abortion is a complex issue and people can decide to have abortions for a variety of reasons, but it felt clunky and forced. I also didn’t buy that the mom would suddenly become supportive of Evangeline after one conversation with St Olivia, but I knew it was coming, very predictable. 

On other hand, the new detective came across as way too aggressive and foaming at the mouth with Benson and Carisi. I hope she dials things down going forward and isn’t just a female, left wing version of Stabler/Amaro.

The episode featured a heavy dose of St Olivia’s whispering and overdramatic facial expressions, which is beyond annoying. And Fin completely disappeared in the second half of the episode which sucked.

The episode was clunky, cliched and predictable. I understood the points they were trying to make, but I wish they would do so in a nuanced, subtle manner instead of using ridiculous scenarios, cliched characters and situations and extreme views and rhetoric. It could’ve been interesting, but it played out as clunky and cliched, as well as being very predictable. 

[torqy]

Just sampled some comments regarding this season. Thanks to all of you for reinforcing my decision to abandon this show several seasons ago!

[HunterHunted]

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

While I understood the points they were trying to make, using an extreme scenario of an Ohio DA trying to arrest Manhattan detectives and DA’s made the episode very unrealistic IMO, I don’t believe that some small town DA would have the power or the support to try to do all of that, not even anti abortion right wing politicians would try to pull a stunt like that off IMO.

I will say that the first time this happens to you, you freak out. The next time it happens to you, you understand that it's grandstanding bullshit that doesn't mean anything because you are protected by sovereign immunity so you quickly turn it over to your legal department and leadership.* They will in turn contact your state's governor, attorney general, solicitor, and elected federal representatives. The other state needs to prepare for hellfire because this kind of shit should not be attempted lightly. New York is a major customs and shipping location. All they need to do is be overly officious and detailed for any good intended for Ohio and they would seriously compromise Ohio's economy. This is why you don't play these games lightly.

The only time you expect a state to pull this shit is if the governor is planning a presidential run otherwise they'd file an amicus brief, write a couple of op-eds, and do the news show circuit.

*This has happened to me. 

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

And the Ohio DA was a walking cliche and felt like a parody of anti abortion fruitcakes, I like the actor who played the role, I remember him as the ME on CSI Miami for one, but the character was more of a caricature than anything. And I didn’t buy that he would suddenly grow a conscience and charge Jim with rape after a conversation with Carisi that had nothing to do with the case. The revelation of Carisi’s mom having an abortion was weird and out of left field, again I understood their point, that abortion is a complex issue and people can decide to have abortions for a variety of reasons, but it felt clunky and forced. I also didn’t buy that the mom would suddenly become supportive of Evangeline after one conversation with St Olivia, but I knew it was coming, very predictable.

Back when the mothership was on, they used to approach these types of subjects with nuance. We might have seen that the Ohio DA was grandstanding and only prosecuted the dad so that he could stake a claim on being morally and legally above reproach unlike those folks in New York. 

I think the story about Carisi's mom was supposed to illustrate that abortion isn't that black and white. Roughly 25% of individuals getting abortions identify as Catholic. About 5% of abortions occur on women over 40. The over 40 abortion percentage used to be a lot higher, but the increase of cesarean sections has been highly associated with an increase in tubal ligations, which I suspect a lot of women are playing off to their husbands as necessary because of "complications."

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

On other hand, the new detective came across as way too aggressive and foaming at the mouth with Benson and Carisi. I hope she dials things down going forward and isn’t just a female, left wing version of Stabler/Amaro.

Who in their right mind is this shrieky, strident, and unpleasant in their first week on the job? Just bring some bagels and danish in and don't try to make too many waves crazy.

Fin: I'm out of staples. Anyone know where they are?

New Detective: Yeah, they are on the top shelf in the gray storage cabinet. Let me get on my soapbox and get them for you. Hey Fin, you're not married are you. Is it because you hate women?

Fin: I just wanted some fucking staples.

[CrystalBlue]

Isn't the newbie the same woman who was all sass and stuff helping out Benson on the case in a previous episode?  She's from the Latino section of NYC and she grew up there and now she's a cop?

[wknt3]

The Good:
New blood. We've badly needed a new cop since Andy Karl left. I don't think that they handled her very well (see below) but they could actually show an investigation without padding things out with Chiefs and ADAs in the field.
Carisi. He was the only one who came out of this looking good. Not counting Fin since he didn't really have anything to do and Ice-T seemed to be phoning this one in.
Benson managed to keep her hands off the victims stomach unless I missed something.
The promo for next week looks potentially interesting and seems to indicate that they're going to keep up the effort to have a variety of cases.

The Bad:
So I really liked the new addition in her first episode, but oh boy was she OTT in this episode. And while I'm not going to freak out since it took them a little while to find their footing with Carisi it's a little bit different since he was something different when he came on whereas a female investigator who can't keep her political or personal views from interfering with her job is something that is pretty well covered ground at this point. And they don't seem to be using her like Carisi as a way of providing exposition and being the viewer surrogate - she's just jumping right in like a vet. I'm willing to give this "Ice-T & the Women" version of the squad a chance, but they need to tone things down a bit.
The intro. I hate hate hate the "cheesy montage of thematically linked scenes set to music so we don't have to actually write dialogue" opens. Although I guess in this case it was probably better than more of what they called a script.
The guest characters. Not the guest cast, most of whom I've liked before or on other shows, but the characters and the way they were written. One note and two dimensional. I don't think any performance could save that.
The script in general. I can't believe that this is the best that 3 credited professionals could come up with. It's not really a matter of bias per se since I don't think there were two equal sides here or on the issue in general and I actually prefer a clear and honest POV to the franchise's squishiness on the topic of abortion. It's the shallowness and general clumsiness that went beyond the handling of the social issues. It seemed a lot like a Season 18 episode in some ways where it felt like they were shooting from a first draft with a lot of clunky transitions and patchy dialogue. And lots of missed opportunities - I mean would it have been too much to have somebody make a snarky remark about how Benson should know you can't arrest somebody from another jurisdiction for doing their job? Or give us some sort of nuance somewhere?

Overall this was a dud. Not as bad as I feared maybe, but a dud nevertheless. I guess avoiding the SVU Hall of Shame is pretty good given that's where I thought we were headed from the promos, but at least those episodes are memorably bad. This was just a throwaway. Hopefully next week lives up to the potential of the promos.

[dttruman]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I hope she dials things down going forward and isn’t just a female, left wing version of Stabler/Amaro.

Good call on the left wing version. I wasn't thinking of her political views, but they sure did stand out. She seems to be resourceful, she stayed one step ahead of Fin's suggestions when it came to finding Evangeline's ex boyfriend. But I think the writers (and producers) only made her that way for this instance, so they could spend more time on abortion issue and their one-sided view. She does seem to be very confrontational (like Amaro) with men (maybe especially with white ones), but seems very non conservative.

Edited October 18, 2019 by dttruman

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I will say that the first time this happens to you, you freak out. The next time it happens to you, you understand that it's grandstanding bullshit that doesn't mean anything because you are protected by sovereign immunity so you quickly turn it over to your legal department and leadership.* They will in turn contact your state's governor, attorney general, solicitor, and elected federal representatives. The other state needs to prepare for hellfire because this kind of shit should not be attempted lightly. New York is a major customs and shipping location. All they need to do is be overly officious and detailed for any good intended for Ohio and they would seriously compromise Ohio's economy. This is why you don't play these games lightly.

The only time you expect a state to pull this shit is if the governor is planning a presidential run otherwise they'd file an amicus brief, write a couple of op-eds, and do the news show circuit.

*This has happened to me. 

Thank you for your informative input, another demerit for their research department. And it didn't seem like it was too complicated to find this information or even ask someone.

[The Wild Sow]

3 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Isn't the newbie the same woman who was all sass and stuff helping out Benson on the case in a previous episode?  She's from the Latino section of NYC and she grew up there and now she's a cop?

Yes, she was already a cop -- she was the undercover who help them get Sir Toby.  Liv mentioned it at the beginning of the show.

[dttruman]

9 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

Loved it. NY looking out for a rape victim and standing up to the absurdity of states trying to dictate what other states can and cannot do. I'm glad Evangeline was able to get the abortion she wanted and that the courts stood for her autonomy.

It would have been a good episode, if they hadn't presented it in such an outrageous fashion. It kind of reminds me of "Zero Tolerance".  As usual they presented it in such a skewed and unbelievable way, where the extreme of one side is presented as just being normal.

9 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I'm not shocked at all that the OH DA only cared about stopping the abortion but not charging the rapist.

This is similar to what Benson did in "Zero Tolerance". Benson chose to usurp the federal government because of unfounded preconceived living conditions of illegal aliens, rather then go after that organized kidnapping ring of child molesters they were investigating.

[theredhead77]

5 minutes ago, dttruman said:

It would have been a good episode, if they hadn't presented it in such an outrageous fashion.

Considering what is going on in GA, AL, MS, and OH (I'm sure there are other states I forgot), it's closer to reality than outrageous characterization.

[dttruman]

19 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Considering what is going on in GA, AL, MS, and OH (I'm sure there are other states I forgot), it's closer to reality than outrageous characterization.

Each state has their extreme religious areas or counties if you wish, but the state governments are not looking a blind eye in the abortion direction. It's just that both sides have their radical view points speaking for them right now. There has to be some common ground some place. Hopefully they can find it.

[Ohiopirate02]

I'm from Ohio, I know about the religious nutjobs that dot the state, I have seen the "Hell is Real," "God Has a Judgement Day Coming"**, etc billboards that dot the highways in Ohio.  But, whoever in the writing department who came up with the fake town Jolene needs to be fired.  The real horror of these religious nutjobs is not that they live in podunk towns in the south and midwest, it's the fact that they live in suburbs and cities.  Evangeline could have easily been from a suburb of Columbus, or Akron, or a real smaller town like New Philadelphia.  

**That particular billboard has been up for more than 40 years.  I'm still waiting on this supposed Judgement Day. 

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

Each state has their extreme religious areas or counties if you wish, but the state governments are not looking a blind eye in the abortion direction. It's just that both sides have their radical view points speaking for them right now. There has to be some common ground some place. Hopefully they can find it.

Link to the GA Bill signed by the governor and the state is now fighting the ACLU (who is fighting for women). 

The episode was a lot closer to 'ripped from the headlines' than it was fiction.

I don't watch SVU that closely anymore, I'm usually asleep before it comes on, but some overall thoughts - I like Carisi as a lawyer, I'm glad he pursued that path and I like that there was additional career progression for Benson and Fin. One of my peeves of a long-running show is not showing career progressing where there should be. 

[meatball77]

The mother really creeped me out.  She finds out that her thirteen year old is pregnant and her first reaction (when thinking that it was the boy she thought should be arrested before) is that she needed to get married.  Then continually put everyone else before her daughter. 

[preeya]

4 hours ago, dttruman said:

There has to be some common ground some place. Hopefully they can find it.

More like, "common sense."  Everything is simply not "black & white" and there are (or should be) exceptions to every rule. Sometimes giving in to a situation is not always a bad thing.

[tennisgurl]

I am glad that we are going to be dealing with such a sensitive hot button issue with sensitivity and gra HAHAHA of course not its going to be melodramatic as fuck with everyone acting up to eleven, a ridiculous Christian music video to start with, and lots of dramatic plot twists. 

I get what they were trying to do here, and its not exactly a bad idea, dealing with the states that are trying to pass tons of abortion laws and severely limit women's access to medical care in the guise of protecting life, with different states having different laws and them clashing, and there are certainly pro-life people that are just as over the top and awful as the Ohio DA who only seem to care about birthing babies instead of actually helping people, but...it really was just so full of melodrama, with whole scenes basically just being uninteresting lectures for the audience, and it seemed like EVERYONE was acting so hard that their eyeballs were about to pop out, and possibly worst of all, it was all predictable as hell. As soon as they mentioned the guy was her step dad, I knew that he raped her and that he was the father, and that the mom and the pastor wouldn't believe her or try to downplay what he did, and that some blowhard strawman would show up, the girl would throw herself down some stairs in desperation, her mom would come around, and she would have the abortion. Just add in a lot of drama and yelling and "WE HAVE A POINT MAKE THE POINTTTT" drama.

So do the writers just think that all religious people that arent main characters only talk in terms of religion? Because I grew up in rural Indiana, I know tons of super religious people, and most of them can go a few sentences without references to God or praying or Satan or miracles or whatever. Like, we get it show, they're super religious, can they have something more interesting to say now? Did the evil Ohio DA really call himself a "Simple Country Lawyer?!" Holy crap, what is this guy!? I was waiting for him to admit to looking towards running for a higher office, like governor or something, and that was why he was being so over the top and going so hard on this case. That I could buy. 

Honestly, Olivia giving "every women has the right to choose" lectures, especially to a girl who was raped, not long after she guilt tripped a rape victim into keeping her baby, even putting her hand on the woman's stomach, is pretty fucking rich. I also liked that they mentioned how many of the real victims in the states desperately trying to close clinics are poor women who cant afford to travel far away to get abortions, but it sure would be nice if this show ever featured poor people from time to time anymore. 

I did appreciate that they at least tried to show some grey area with Carisi (even if what he said was clearly based on personal stuff) having complicated feeling towards abortion, which makes sense, because its often a very complicated issue for a lot of people, but then the new detective jumped down his throat and basically went on some "YOU EVIL WHITE MAN YOU WANNA START THE HANDMAIDS TALE DONT YOU!!!!!!" tirade and it was like "holy crap, that went from zero to ten in about three seconds!" I am glad we are getting a new detective, and I liked her in her debut episode, but she was so angry and so chomping at the bit every second, I dont think I am going to like her very much. We really dont need a female Stabler, just from a more left centered world view. I would like to see even a tad bit of professionalism on this show every once in awhile, and I am not getting good vibes from her. 

I dont know how old the actress is who was playing Evangeline, and she was pretty good, but she didnt look 13 to me, more 15 or 16. I dont know though, I am pretty bad at ages. I also think the mom got let off the hook a bit too early. Yeah she had an abusive husband and that sucks, and she did come around at the end, but she spent a whole lot of time blaming her daughter for being raped and her first response to her 13 year old daughter being pregnant was "the sketchy guy who knocked her up has to marry her!" So the step dad cant be around Evangeline anymore, but what about his sons? A guy like that shouldn't be around kids at all. 

[ams1001]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

As soon as they mentioned the guy was her step dad, I knew that he raped her and that he was the father, and that the mom and the pastor wouldn't believe her or try to downplay what he did

When they said the other guy with the parents was their pastor, I said, "who's it gonna be, the stepdad or the pastor?" Cuz you knew it was one or the other.

I haven't regularly watched this show in years; when I do it's certainly not nearly as good as I remember (and I don't know who a lot of the characters are). I was planning to go to bed a little early but then I saw the subject matter I kept it on. I knew the melodrama would be jacked up to 11 but jeez that was over the top. The entire "other side" was one giant stereotype.

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, meatball77 said:

The mother really creeped me out.  She finds out that her thirteen year old is pregnant and her first reaction (when thinking that it was the boy she thought should be arrested before) is that she needed to get married.  Then continually put everyone else before her daughter. 

The mother has serious issues, herself. Not even her daughter trying to commit suicide brought her around. What's her backstory, besides the abusive ex-husband.

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

When they said the other guy with the parents was their pastor, I said, "who's it gonna be, the stepdad or the pastor?" Cuz you knew it was one or the other.

I'm shocked it wasn't the pastor.

[dttruman]

6 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I like that there was additional career progression for Benson and Fin. One of my peeves of a long-running show is not showing career progressing where there should be. 

Fin deserved a promotion, but I question Benson's promotions over the years. She has broken protocol (especially in "Zero tolerance") numerous times and bullied the ADAs to prosecute with very flimsy evidence, only because she knew the perps were guilty and sometimes they were innocent. The ADAs need to go to her boss and tell her to back off.

Edited October 18, 2019 by dttruman

[wknt3]

6 hours ago, meatball77 said:

The mother really creeped me out.  She finds out that her thirteen year old is pregnant and her first reaction (when thinking that it was the boy she thought should be arrested before) is that she needed to get married.  Then continually put everyone else before her daughter. 

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I get what they were trying to do here, and its not exactly a bad idea, dealing with the states that are trying to pass tons of abortion laws and severely limit women's access to medical care in the guise of protecting life, with different states having different laws and them clashing, and there are certainly pro-life people that are just as over the top and awful as the Ohio DA who only seem to care about birthing babies instead of actually helping people, but...it really was just so full of melodrama, with whole scenes basically just being uninteresting lectures for the audience, and it seemed like EVERYONE was acting so hard that their eyeballs were about to pop out, and possibly worst of all, it was all predictable as hell. As soon as they mentioned the guy was her step dad, I knew that he raped her and that he was the father, and that the mom and the pastor wouldn't believe her or try to downplay what he did, and that some blowhard strawman would show up, the girl would throw herself down some stairs in desperation, her mom would come around, and she would have the abortion. Just add in a lot of drama and yelling and "WE HAVE A POINT MAKE THE POINTTTT" drama.

So do the writers just think that all religious people that arent main characters only talk in terms of religion? Because I grew up in rural Indiana, I know tons of super religious people, and most of them can go a few sentences without references to God or praying or Satan or miracles or whatever. Like, we get it show, they're super religious, can they have something more interesting to say now? Did the evil Ohio DA really call himself a "Simple Country Lawyer?!" Holy crap, what is this guy!? I was waiting for him to admit to looking towards running for a higher office, like governor or something, and that was why he was being so over the top and going so hard on this case. That I could buy.

I think these are both examples of the lack of any sort of depth of characterization and the lack of polish on the script. It wouldn't have taken too much at all to change the scene of the mother reacting. Just one line or even a stage direction and you could have given the mom a moment of horror, before slipping into denial and talk of marriage. And they totally could and should have made the DA into a political candidate - it would have actually made their point better. Have him running for OH Attorney General and maybe have Carisi make a snide remark about how he's attacked the NYC DA's office for using prosecutions to advance an agenda before. Combine that with having the family talk about something else occasionally to give them some depth and you actually do a better job of condemning the crazy laws you are trying to attack (pointing out that the faithful are being manipulated by unscrupulous politicians and often bear the brunt of these laws) and make better television (flawed, but believable characters with complex motivations interacting). It's not a matter of bias really - it's a matter of competence. You can totally advocate a POV, but you also have to tell a good story.

Edited October 18, 2019 by wknt3
added some additional explanation

[Welcome5431]

21 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Even the girl's name is on point - Evangeline

The signs on the walls iin Olivia's office and elsewhere were placed prop-aganda related to the  COTW .

[ams1001]

25 minutes ago, Welcome5431 said:

The signs on the walls iin Olivia's office and elsewhere were placed prop-aganda related to the  COTW .

I didn't notice them.

[Welcome5431]

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I didn't notice them.

The sign in Olivia's office had the gist of -women are decision makers 

In the final scene The clinic had a poster along the lines of -not his choice, in the context of the episode I stretched the copy to mean "his " with a lower and upper case H

[Manda317]

There were some things in this episode that were believable, but there were others that were over the top. I didn't really have an issue with the excessive talk about God because the parents were labeled as fundamentalists, which is different than just being religious. I also don't find the woman's reluctance to believe her daughter, or belief that she should have the baby OTT. I would not have been shocked if she somehow thought she asked for it, and some people, generally the extremely religious, believe that abortion is unacceptable in any circumstance. Her desire to raise the baby and not place it up for adoption was a bit much though, as adoption is usually what anti-abortionists push for.

I agree with others that the Ohio lawyer should have been running for some type of office for his behavior to make sense, but I don't think he could have the police arrested. I have heard of states trying to make it illegal for women to cross state lines to obtain an abortion, but as they stated the law is not in effect. I dont think anything can be done at the moment, because a pregnant 10 year old rape just had an abortion in Ohio that would have been outlawed by the new law. It was reported in the news. Also, the lawyer wanting to prevent an abortion does not mean he would not prosecute rape. He can do both. The only way that made sense was if he relutant to investigate the abuse because he thought it would hurt his ability to prevent the abortion.

About the new cop, it always annoys me when people blame old, white men for abortion laws. They may often enact them, but they do it with a lot of support from pro-life women, like the mother. Pro-life women are not uncommon like many people seem to think.

[SarahPrtr]

37 minutes ago, Manda317 said:

About the new cop, it always annoys me when people blame old, white men for abortion laws. They may often enact them, but they do it with a lot of support from pro-life women, like the mother. Pro-life women are not uncommon like many people seem to think.

Thank you!  That had me rolling my eyes so hard.  At least half the population - men and women - are pro-life, so that would account for law enforcers as well.

[halkatla]

On 10/18/2019 at 2:30 AM, dttruman said:

Looks like it is going to be a pure propaganda episode and Ohio is the evil state along with making the parents over zealous with their religious beliefs are also evil or misguided.

Every word coming out of the christian people was a stupid cliche. There was nothing realistic about it. Not saying they don´t have these views about abortion but they just don´t sound like this. And it was much too over the top, even for the most zealous pro-lifers. I know you should never say never but seriously, I´m willing to say that they would never talk like this especially not "fundamentalists". Well, maybe some nutters from a crazy cult but not anyone who goes to church every sunday and reads and believes the Bible. Those people are usually anything but dumb and silly, they would handle this type of situation a lot differently. But the makers of this show just can´t help themselves, the portrayal of christian people must be oozing with prejudices and spitefulness and I´m so sick of it. Why can´t they make the cases believable and interesting, like something that would actually happen? Every week for years it´s always something so farfetched and dumb. This show is such a politically correct joke, I have hate watched it for a few years but even that is becoming too painful for me.

Edited October 19, 2019 by halkatla

[observer]

Quote

This week's episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit was so jam-packed with drama and jaw-dropping moments that one of the most important scenes filmed for it did not make it to air. NBC released a deleted scene from "The Burden of Our Choices" Friday, showing Captain Olivia Benson opening up to Detective Amanda Rollins about her own pregnancy scare. The squad thought Benson might have had an abortion in the past, but the air was finally cleared in the cut scene.  source

Fair warning:  hoarse whispering goes into overdrive.  deleted scene if you want to skip the article

Quote

Now, we only have to solve the issue of the fact the teen’s mother is a brainwashed sh*tshow who wants to stand by her man, but we’ve got like 3 minutes left in this ep, so enter Captain Benson! After a come to Jesus with Saint Olivia (I love her, this is not a dig, trust) the mom is like “Yes daughter, I will believe you now, leave my husband, and not force you to bring a child to term that you don’t want and was a byproduct of rape.”  source

Edited October 20, 2019 by observer

[observer]

Touches on the points several of you have addressed.

Quote

But at best the DA was a caricature of the most zealous opponents of abortion rather than a fully formed character.

This is the way pro-choice writers often depict opponents of abortion. They are always super fundamentalist Christians who scream at the top of their lungs that abortion is murder and that a 13-year-old having her stepfather's baby is a blessing.

Mrs. Miller: I'll take the baby. All you have to do is give birth. I'll raise it as your brother or sister.
Evangeline: What about Jim?
Mrs. Miller: I'll talk to him. Whatever this misunderstanding is -
Evangeline: Misunderstanding? He raped me!
Mrs. Miller: Where did you get words like that? [to Benson]: You're putting words in her mouth. If it weren't for you she'd never have tried to kill her baby.
Evangeline: No, Mama. I wasn't trying to kill my baby. I was trying to kill myself.

It's cringeworthy. It makes the writing heavyhanded and serves to further polarize the audience over an already polarizing topic.

I would LOVE to see pro-choice messaging that also included a nuanced treatment of abortion.

Why can't the DA who opposes abortion on moral and religious grounds also be heartbroken for the 13-year-old who is being asked to carry her stepfather's baby?

Why can't the mother who believes the baby is a gift from God also hurt for what her daughter has been through?

Similarly, why can't Benson 100% support a woman's right to choose while also feeling grateful that her mother chose to keep her after being raped?

Why couldn't Rollins (or anyone) believe that Evangelina has the right to decide to terminate her pregnancy but still have empathy for a mother who feels her parental rights are being usurped?

The only character in the entire squad room (besides the Chief Deputy, who got a throwaway line) who held ANY nuanced views was Carisi, and newcomer Kat was quick to castigate him for it.  source

Edited October 20, 2019 by observer

[ShepardRahl]

On 10/19/2019 at 2:34 AM, Manda317 said:

About the new cop, it always annoys me when people blame old, white men for abortion laws. They may often enact them, but they do it with a lot of support from pro-life women, like the mother. Pro-life women are not uncommon like many people seem to think.

Yeah. It took her fuck all of five minutes to start crying "old white men trying to control muh body" while frothing at the mouth"HANDMAID'S TALE!!!" and doing everything she can to keep herself from shooting Carisi because he dare talk back to her.

[SarahPrtr]

Haven't we already seen the mother-in-denial-about-her-daughter-being-pregnant-because she-was raped-by-a person-in-power thing just a few seasons ago?  In 'Patrimonial Burden'?  It was about a Dugger-like family.  A young girl was pregnant and instead of wanting to kill the man who got her pregnant - the pastor - her parents tried to get the pastor to freaking MARRY her. 

[observer]

Maybe the new cop is an SVU version of Andy Sipowicz, the perennially angry detective from NYPD Blue?  Or perhaps her feistiness will be tamed by a hoarse whisper encounter with her Captain.

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

Haven't we already seen the mother-in-denial-about-her-daughter-being-pregnant-because she-was raped-by-a person-in-power thing just a few seasons ago?  In 'Patrimonial Burden'?  It was about a Dugger-like family.  A young girl was pregnant and instead of wanting to kill the man who got her pregnant - the pastor - her parents tried to get the pastor to freaking MARRY her. 

This episode reminded me of Patrimonial Burden as well, although the one thing you got wrong about Patrimonial Burden is that the parents didn’t know it was the pastor who impregnated the girl, they thought it was one of their son’s/the girl’s brother, the girl wouldn’t say who got her pregnant, and when they found out they were outraged. Still not an excuse for wanting their 13 year old to marry the pastor just so the baby wouldn’t be born out of wedlock, which was very creepy, but at least when they found out the truth about the pastor being the father they were livid and quickly ended the marriage ceremony. Patrimonial Burden was superior to this episode IMO.

I agree with the points made in the review posted by an above poster, this episode was very heavy handed and while I preferred this to some of the anti abortion dreck they did last year, it was still annoying how cliched the writing and characters were, and the storyline was very predictable. I wish SVU could deal with hot button issues in a more nuanced, less cliched and preachy way, the way the Mothership usually did.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Xeliou66

[Laurie4H]

On 10/19/2019 at 7:45 AM, halkatla said:

On 10/17/2019 at 9:30 PM, dttruman said:

Every word coming out of the christian people was a stupid cliche. There was nothing realistic about it. Not saying they don´t have these views about abortion but they just don´t sound like this. And it was much too over the top, even for the most zealous pro-lifers. I know you should never say never but seriously, I´m willing to say that they would never talk like this especially not "fundamentalists". Well, maybe some nutters from a crazy cult but not anyone who goes to church every sunday and reads and believes the Bible. Those people are usually anything but dumb and silly, they would handle this type of situation a lot differently. But the makers of this show just can´t help themselves, the portrayal of christian people must be oozing with prejudices and spitefulness and I´m so sick of it. Why can´t they make the cases believable and interesting, like something that would actually happen? Every week for years it´s always something so farfetched and dumb. This show is such a politically correct joke, I have hate watched it for a few years but even that is becoming too painful for me.

I agree.  I’m pro choice and not religious at all.  Nor do I even feel comfortable around it, but I hate the agenda of the way the media portrays religious people.   They also make it seem that parents are willing to abandon or send their children away over abortion, homosexuality etc....I’m sure it happens but in extreme cases.  

[dttruman]

8 hours ago, observer said:

Maybe the new cop is an SVU version of Andy Sipowicz, the perennially angry detective from NYPD Blue?  Or perhaps her feistiness will be tamed by a hoarse whisper encounter with her Captain.

She's got one thing going for her, she is better looking than Sipowicz.

[dttruman]

Oh my God, I just can't believe the difference in the quality of the episodes. They were showing episodes from season 1 and it was like night and day. They even had Skoda come in from L&O until they got Huang (Wong) to come in as a regular.

[WendyCR72]

46 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Oh my God, I just can't believe the difference in the quality of the episodes. They were showing episodes from season 1 and it was like night and day. They even had Skoda come in from L&O until they got Huang (Wong) to come in as a regular.

Skoda did the trifecta as he also hit CI early on. Made the franchise seem like the same universe versus the islands they found themselves on later. And with the same names involved in all 3, it never should have felt like that.

I totally agree about the difference between early/later episodes. Maybe that is also a reason as to why later seasons of SVU on DVD have been relegated to MOD versus earlier years... Probably less people buying. (Of course, I realize streaming may be a factor now, too.)