Book vs. Series: On The Shelf

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

Also their mom repeatedly refers to Eloise having her season “next year”. Between this and their dynamic, it just makes more sense that the girls are just a year apart.

Oh I think they are meant to be about a year apart on the show.  I just thought the way they sounded, it implied Daphne older by more than a year in that story. It was as much the tone as the words.

[bijoux]

Yeah, Daphne's age was changed in the show a little to accomodate the diamond of the first water angle, but they did try not to overdo it since they had Penelope point out that Lady Bridgerton had decided to delay Daphne's first season for a year so she'd be readier.

Okay, I found the official family tree. I'm only linking it because it includes all the future spouses.

Anthony was born in 1784, Benedict in 1786, Colin in 1791 and Daphne in 1792. Eloise in 1796, Francesca in 1797, Gregory in 1801 and Hyacinth in 1803.

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, katha said:

Yes, but as it ends in the series, I don't want these people together. They are terrible together. They don't know how to communicate, they don't trust each other. Simon lied to Daphne, Daphne assaulted Simon in revenge. Their relationship is from hell. Yet it is presented as some sort of romantic ideal. It's pretty sickening. I'm not prepared to do the writers' work for them and give them the benefit of the doubt when they can't be bothered to produce something that isn't deeply problematic and wrong. And I dread to think what they will teach their children, with how dysfunctional their relationship is. Totally lacking in trust and respect. Blah.

IMO, all of this would have been made right if Daphne had just apologized to Simon. I hated the fact that they turned her assault of him into some sort of Rar rar I’m Woman Hear Me Roar moment especially since the show, as opposed to the books, she’s more calculated about how she goes about things.

In the book, she also apologizes for her assault. So the optics of keeping this storyline (they could easily have had her just confronting him with what she knew and leading to their estrangement without, you know, the assault!) but taking out the part where she’s contrite about it, it’s really stomach roiling. 
 

As someone on tumblr said, it really felt like poor Simon went from one abusive relationship with his dad to another one with his wife. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

IMO, all of this would have been made right if Daphne had just apologized to Simon. I hated the fact that they turned her assault of him into some sort of Rar rar I’m Woman Hear Me Roar moment especially since the show, as opposed to the books, she’s more calculated about how she goes about things.

In the book, she also apologizes for her assault. So the optics of keeping this storyline (they could easily have had her just confronting him with what she knew and leading to their estrangement without, you know, the assault!) but taking out the part where she’s contrite about it, it’s really stomach roiling. 

I don't know if it would have been right but it definitely would have been better if Daphne acknowledged and apologized for what she had done. 

[katha]

Yes, what makes me so ragey about this is that they don't seem to understand at all what they are presenting there on screen. They think it is "hot" and "sexy" and "edgy." Just nope. These are deeply disturbing relationship dynamics, abusive relationship dynamics presented as "true love."

[ursula]

Just now, bijoux said:

I don't know if it would have been right but it definitely would have been better if Daphne acknowledged and apologized for what she had done. 

Well I mean by romance novel standards. I grew up reading books were rakes did all sorts of deplorable things (yes, including forced pregnancies 😒) but at the end, they cried manly tears and said sorry and that they did it all for love, so deal. The show had Daphne basically say “You deserved it. Suck it up!” and never go back on that, instead making Simon the only one who needs to grow and learn from that moment. It’s problematic. 

2 minutes ago, katha said:

Yes, what makes me so ragey about this is that they don't seem to understand at all what they are presenting there on screen. They think it is "hot" and "sexy" and "edgy." Just nope. These are deeply disturbing relationship dynamics, abusive relationship dynamics presented as "true love."

I think an unfortunate number of people think that women doing the same horrible things to men that men did to women is empowering. 

[bijoux]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Well I mean by romance novel standards. I grew up reading books were rakes did all sorts of deplorable things (yes, including forced pregnancies 😒) but at the end, they cried manly tears and said sorry and that they did it all for love, so deal. The show had Daphne basically say “You deserved it. Suck it up!” and never go back on that, instead making Simon the only one who needs to grow and learn from that moment. It’s problematic. 

Very true. In a way I think the story needed for Daphne to do something deplorable because of their power imbalance. But the fallout should have been handled with much more care if that's the path you choose to take. 

[RachelKM]

22 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Anthony was born in 1784, Benedict in 1786, Colin in 1791 and Daphne in 1792. Eloise in 1796, Francesca in 1797, Gregory in 1801 and Hyacinth in 1803

Oh, Daphne was more older than I remembered. She would have been 21 in the book, So I assume 3rd season even if she delayed a bit.

[bijoux]

Definitely 3rd season in the book. She was basically voted the ton's Miss Congeniality during her first two seasons and friendzoned by all.

[Nidratime]

18 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Definitely 3rd season in the book. She was basically voted the ton's Miss Congeniality during her first two seasons and friendzoned by all.

LOL!

[Featherhat]

11 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Definitely 3rd season in the book. She was basically voted the ton's Miss Congeniality during her first two seasons and friendzoned by all.

Yes one of the first pages has quite a funny line where a man Daphne likes exclaims "Deuce take it Daff, you're not like a regular girl, you're positively normal!" and then goes off to goggle one of the "regular girls". 

I actually really liked that, that she was a regular pretty and congenial girl who wanted to get married but had failed to catch anyone's eye rather than the huge rise and falls she suffered in the show. It was refreshing after some other regency books written around the same time that I discovered all at once. 

I do think in reality she would have had more offers than she did (Anthony actually turns down Nigel and a couple of other unsuitables) since she is well connected and does have a good dowry but then there would be no need for an always extremely suspect plan. Simon does think having three older brothers standing next to her probably has a lot to do with it. 

[midge]

So finished it and am back to say that, IMO, they are COMPETELY off base about Anthony.     

I think it stems from a couple of things.  First, how happy the parents were is a core aspect of the entire OG series. In the books he had no doubt that true love existed because of his parents (and the fact that he witnesses them together the most since he is oldest) He doesn't want to love his wife, in part, because of how devastated his mother was when his father died young.  

Second, while he feels the pressure of being the head of the family he would never do anything - like "date" publicly someone so socially inappropriate - because he takes it very seriously and really would not want to upset his mother. 

One of the reasons for the problem is that the character of Violet is so weak, IMO. Might be the actress, but its maybe more the writing. Not sure.  In any case I don't buy her actually having influence over her own kids. 

Funnily I kind of like Benedict having an "inappropriate" girlfriend because it seems more likely for him as a (marginally) more bohemian character.   But for Anthony it goes against everything I thought about his character. 

I guess that's the real problem.  While I didn't particularly like the Duke & I I adored the Viscount Who Loved Me.   I should probably get less attached so I can enjoy the show.  

I did enjoy the series.  I am still very confused about Penelope/Colin/The Feathringtons though so that put another damper on it. Boy, that actor playing Simon sure is pretty though, so that helped 😏

 

[BlackberryJam]

Again, long time since I read the book, but I was really looking forward to the Smythe-Smith musicale. Did they have one in The Duke and I? I would love it if the entire Smythe-Smith family were portrayed as Korean or Chinese or any other distinct Asian nationality. (Not a group of, Oh you're all Asians so your particular nationality doesn't matter!)

The Smythe-Smiths are an absolute delight.

Show!Anthony is very problematic, I agree. 

[bijoux]

There was a Smythe-Smith musical in Romancing Mr. Bridgerton but not in The Viscount Who Loved Me. Maybe they didn't appear at all in the Bridgerton series before then. 🤷‍♀️ Or maybe the show replaced it with Phillipa howling in one of the episodes. Which would be a shame. 

I’m still trying to understand what they were trying to accomplish with the Sienna storyline. If she was Anthony’s mistress with whom he cavorted and maybe discussed matters from timw to time, fine. But this pathetic thwarted love story? Anthony had mistresses at least in part because they were safe for his plan never to fall in love. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by bijoux

[katha]

Yeah, they're off with Anthony, like they are with most of the characters, I'd argue (Simon is perhaps the only one who fares better than in the book, but that is also the personal charisma of the actor, more than the writing, probably). But at least he has some sort of recognizable personality? And IMO he did improve throughout the series, his interactions with the family were nice. But don't know how well they will translate the second book. They kept all the wrong parts of the first one IMO, so no idea how it will play out in the second season.

[BlackberryJam]

To enjoy the series, I had to let so much of it just wash over me. It could have been done better. The Anthony story was unnecessary. Daphne was a cipher. The Daphne/Simon relationship was very problematic. 

BUT...OOOOO the gowns, the jewels, Queen Charlotte, Lady Danbury, that scene of the Bridgerton boys trying to avoid Lady Danbury, the hotness of Simon, First Dickon as Prince Frederich, the dresses, the soapy fun of it all. I needed that binge to end a crappy year.

[bijoux]

It was a fun weekend watch. I do wish they get more decisive with editing next season. Some episodes seemed overly long. 

[BlackberryJam]

While I enjoyed Simon naked, there was entirely too much Daphne/Simon sex. We get it. It's Netflix. People can get naked and fuck. Give me more Lady Danbury slamming Cressida Cowper.

I want a recast of Lady Violet. Just googling possible actresses and when did Minnie Driver turn 50???

ETA: What is Amanda Donohoe doing now? She's pretty enough, charming enough and I think she'd be great. The current Lady Bridgerton gives me the "flustered housekeeper" vibe.

Edited December 27, 2020 by BlackberryJam

[RachelKM]

from the Lady Whistledown thread:

3 minutes ago, EyewatchTV211 said:

And people spill a lot within her hearing since they don't even notice her existence. 

I had honestly spaced the Lady W reveal part of the series but it's coming back to me slowly.   And this is one of the things I feel the book did much better with Penelope. It was clearer in the book that she spent her time on the periphery being a perpetual wallflower and overlooked by everyone.

They also left how much time was spent by Lady W ribbing the Featheringtons for their mother's sartorial selections.  On the whole, most of her gossipy stories and comments were either poking fun at absurdities or were mild and merely designed to stir intrigue rather than ruin.

 

[EyewatchTV211]

3 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

from the Lady Whistledown thread:

I had honestly spaced the Lady W reveal part of the series but it's coming back to me slowly.   And this is one of the things I feel the book did much better with Penelope. It was clearer in the book that she spent her time on the periphery being a perpetual wallflower and overlooked by everyone.

They also left how much time was spent by Lady W ribbing the Featheringtons for their mother's sartorial selections.  On the whole, most of her gossipy stories and comments were either poking fun at absurdities or were mild and merely designed to stir intrigue rather than ruin.

 

I started re-reading that book after watching the series - that's the only reason I was able to note some of the specifics. Otherwise, I have the worst memory in the world and wouldn't have remembered anything. I actually tried to say something similar in response to someone's post in the episode 8 thread, but I guess referencing that her writing was targeted to mean people and not nice people was considered spoilery outside of this thread and was removed. I added the post back under spoiler tags. 🤷‍♀️

[Chaser]

I love love love that Netflix is doing the regency romance and I hope that this is a success so we get more but I’ll be honest, I’m a little confused as to why they went with this one. I know Shonda Rhimes picked it but I can’t help but think of a half dozen others that would translate better. Simon and Daphne were kind of dull in the book and they are kind of dull here. If I’m looking to kick off a new tv trend they would not be the couple that would jump to mind. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Chaser

[katha]

Pen is a bit delusional in the books when it comes to possible consequences for writing as Lady W. But it's mostly handled as denial and when she's exposed, there is blowback. But it's also believable that it's not too bad, since she has the Bridgertons defending her, the column was super popular in society and Lady W wasn't really malicious and out to ruin lives for the most part. It's fun gossip in the books.

In the series it has taken on a much darker edge and she's deliberately hurting people she is also supposedly friends with or even loves. Marina is bad, but at least it has some form of context, however misguided. Going so hard after Daphne for no reason in a way that she knows could ruin her, for example? I don't understand the motivation there and I'm afraid the writers don't, either. The series is just not very well thought-out when it is supposed to provide characterization. Bright shiny objects are more important than building good relationships or creating consistent characters.

Edited December 28, 2020 by katha

[BlackberryJam]

Thinking of a few things that have not yet been discussed, so Marina is half French? And her French accent was...not good according to a good friend. I'm wondering why they didn't use her French heritage as a way to make her less than desirable. Napoleonic wars and all; I could see Portia whispering, "She's part French, you know," to the other society matrons.

Where was Marina's mother in all of this? 

The changes to Book!Marina seem poorly thought out and a way to shoehorn in the character. 

[scarynikki12]

I was scratching my head over Anthony's subplot with Sienna but maybe it's meant to contribute to Kate's insecurities? She's constantly hearing how stunning Edwina is, is found lacking compared to her, and it contributes to her insecurities about Anthony's feelings so maybe having one or more run-ins with his ex-mistress is part of the plan for season 2? There is that moment when she's hiding under his desk in the book while he flirts/prepares to hook up with the opera singer so maybe they want to recreate it with a character we're familiar with? But then they made such a point of Sienna's rejection in the finale that I don't know what they might do. I do want to see Anthony's "you are the most beautiful and desirable woman in the world" speech make it onto the show so Sienna's return could lead to that.

I want to see Mary and also Kate's corgi.

Like everyone else I'm eager to see the Pall Mall sequence. No way do they leave that out.

I'm really looking forward to flashbacks to Edmund. They have to do them because Anthony's love and idolization of his father, and the hole his death leaves in his life, informs so much of his character and I want to see it. Anthony's memories of Edmund are so well done in the book and it would be a mistake to leave them out.

Oh! And also his fear of bees! We got plenty of bee sightings in season 1 so I have no doubt that we'll see his panic when Kate gets stung but I'd like to see it sprinkled throughout the season leading up to that moment in the garden.

With regard to Benedict's story I'd like to see the masked ball where he first meets Sophie take place during season 2 to set up season 3. He can subsequently be shown trying to figure out who she was and how to find her but nothing more until it's time for them to be front and center.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

so Marina is half French? And her French accent was...not good according to a good friend. I'm wondering why they didn't use her French heritage as a way to make her less than desirable. Napoleonic wars and all;

This is fantasy Regency. Much like Negro Queen Charlotte and colored people in the peerage, I don't think we're supposed to assume it's an exact duplicate of real historical events or attitudes.

Reading through the thread, I'm not surprised at people defending Penelope basically for being conventionally unattractive, regardless of her actual actions, so I won't touch that.

What interests me is the confirmation (?) that book Benedict and Eloise are not queer! I assumed Benedict was bi, and Eloise was at least aromantic, or maybe even a lesbian who hadn't yet come out. The show seemed to hint at something with her and Penelope in the beginning, until it became obvious that Penelope had a crush on Colin. Interesting. Hopefully, these were done deliberately to steer them this way. As to the inevitable naysayers, if we can have Black Dukes, we can have gay Lords and Ladies, thank you very much.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Katsullivan

[DearEvette]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

What interests me is the confirmation (?) that book Benedict and Eloise are not queer! I assumed Benedict was bi, and Eloise was at least aromantic, or maybe even a lesbian who hadn't yet come out.

Granted I haven't read a Julia Quinn book in a minute.  But she would not be a writer to include queer main characters in her books. Heck, she has stated outright he would not write POC in her romances.  It is one of the reasons I am rooting for either or both Benedict or Eloise to be queer and when the casting was announced, why I found the casting of Simon, Lady Danbury and Queen Charlotte so delicious. 

[Katsullivan]

3 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Granted I haven't read a Julia Quinn book in a minute.  But she would not be a writer to include queer main characters in her books. Heck, she has stated outright he would not write POC in her romances.  It is one of the reasons I am rooting for either or both Benedict or Eloise to be queer and when the casting was announced, why I found the casting of Simon, Lady Danbury and Queen Charlotte so delicious. 

😂😂😂 I love this.

Question for book readers: what was reason behind the old Lord Hastings’s hang up over his son’s stuttering? Obviously it can’t be the same as the show, where he’s the Regency version of Eli Pope. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Katsullivan

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

I’m still trying to understand what they were trying to accomplish with the Sienna storyline. If she was Anthony’s mistress with whom he cavorted and maybe discussed matters from timw to time, fine. But this pathetic thwarted love story? Anthony had mistresses at least in part because they were safe for his plan never to fall in love. 

I just finished episode four and I am hating the direction of the Anthony/Sienna storyline.  I hope they aren't planning to diverge from the books and make her his heroine if they are planning an Anthony romance arc for season two.  His book is so good, and his 'Taming of the Shrew' like heroine is awesome.  I am up for them changing some stuff like making Benedict gay or bi (his book was not a favorite of mine  -- I tend to dislike Cinderella re-tellings) or making Eloise a rabble rousing spinster (I liked her book but it would would not work for the tv series) but please, no pairing Anthony up with Sienna.

[Mirabelle]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

😂😂😂 I love this.

Question for book readers: what was reason behind the old Lord Hastings’s hang up over his son’s stuttering? Obviously it can’t be the same as the show, where he’s the Regency version of Eli Pope. 

I'm not an expert on speech pathologies or society's view of those who have them but I'm pretty sure at one point in time (and probably even still today) that a stutter was seen as an indication that one was mentally impaired. Simon's father just couldn't deal with having an imperfect son so he pretended he did not have one going so far as to imply Simon was dead.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Mirabelle

[bijoux]

Simon's father was such an imbecile on top of his cruelty. It never made sense that he didn't remarry and try to get another poor woman pregnant to hedge his bets. Babies and children dying back then was not unusual.

[katha]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Granted I haven't read a Julia Quinn book in a minute.  But she would not be a writer to include queer main characters in her books. Heck, she has stated outright he would not write POC in her romances.  It is one of the reasons I am rooting for either or both Benedict or Eloise to be queer and when the casting was announced, why I found the casting of Simon, Lady Danbury and Queen Charlotte so delicious. 

Yeah, for all my issues with the adaptation, I am kinda gleeful that they are stomping all over most of Quinn's regressive views. She can't really say anything, because they are giving her money, but LOL. I hope they continue with that aspect. And how backwards she is can't really be explained with genre or her age or anything. Someone like Balogh, who is way older, has tried to adapt her writing. With failures, of course, but when called out for "Someone to Love", for example, she was gracious and able to take criticism. Kleypas has included working-class and non-white heroes in her historicals. It's not some grand progressive stance, but other established figures of the genre have been somewhat able to evolve beyond their comfort zones.

Edited December 28, 2020 by katha

[ursula]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

Simon's father was such an imbecile on top of his cruelty. It never made sense that he didn't remarry and try to get another poor woman pregnant to hedge his bets. Babies and children dying back then was not unusual.

Maybe he was secretly worried it was his "seed". He could blame Simon on his wife but if he had another "imperfect" son...

 

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Obviously it can’t be the same as the show, where he’s the Regency version of Eli Pope. 

Ooh thanks for putting that in such apt language! I definitely picked up on the "we need to be twice as good" vibe he gave off.

[bijoux]

I have a question about a line from when the family gathers to deal with the Marina scandal. Violet comments on how nice it is to have all her children present at the same time and Colin, I believe, remarks that they should court scandal more often then. It's a good line, but I'm wondering if it's in the books. For some reason it immediately reminded me of Lisa Kleypas' Leo Hathaway. It may be that it just sounds like him or that he'd actually said something like it. The Hathaways were no strangers to scandal.

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

This is fantasy Regency. Much like Negro Queen Charlotte and colored people in the peerage, I don't think we're supposed to assume it's an exact duplicate of real historical events or attitudes.

Reading through the thread, I'm not surprised at people defending Penelope basically for being conventionally unattractive, regardless of her actual actions, so I won't touch that.

What interests me is the confirmation (?) that book Benedict and Eloise are not queer! I assumed Benedict was bi, and Eloise was at least aromantic, or maybe even a lesbian who hadn't yet come out. The show seemed to hint at something with her and Penelope in the beginning, until it became obvious that Penelope had a crush on Colin. Interesting. Hopefully, these were done deliberately to steer them this way. As to the inevitable naysayers, if we can have Black Dukes, we can have gay Lords and Ladies, thank you very much.

The first book came out in 2000 and at the time it was pretty standard for mainstream romances to be 100% heteronormative and in Regency 95% white with a few Native American, Indian and Chinese mothers thrown in for some "exoticness". As said above Quinn also hasn't changed things up much in her more recent series except to stop attempting anything except the most basic nods to 1800s society and write them as fairly conservative white, middle class American characters basically cos playing Jane Austen. I also personally think her witty writing which was the main selling point of these books has also declined. 

Some authors included queer side characters but almost all main characters who were going to get there own book were straight and followed a template of the bad boy, the dreamer/quiet one, the funny one, the stick up his ass one, the alpha one, the horse mad one, the quirky one. Mix and match some what. All of them will be labelled "Rakes" as a compliment even if they really aren't because the word "rake" on the back of a book sells. 

Benedict wasn't as clearly written as Colin or Anthony in the first two books but became the dreamer and quirky one quickly in his own book. He also falls in love with Cinderella about 30 pages into the book and spends a lot of time about obsessing over her and then vacillating between "her" and Sophie the maid.  There are no hints at all that he is bi or otherwise queer. 

Her one gay character in this series is nice enough but basically a cardboard placeholder obstacle and there's some hints he may have a mutually beneficial Lavender Marriage at some point, which I suppose is a happish ending at the time. 

Penelope and Eloise vaguely planning a spinster cottage in the country when they reached their mid 30s and retired from the marriage mart but the writing bashed us over the head with Penelope is Colin's LI as early as book 2 and certainly by book 3 so it never came across as queer as it could have. 

In the books Eloise definitely isn't Aro or Ace she's waiting for true love that all her siblings have and is frustrated by the options of the ton because she is a bright, witty person who wants more than dull suitors. The book goes into detail explaining why she turned down many marriage proposals from alcoholism to lack of humour to too old etc.

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I just finished episode four and I am hating the direction of the Anthony/Sienna storyline.  I hope they aren't planning to diverge from the books and make her his heroine if they are planning an Anthony romance arc for season two.  His book is so good, and his 'Taming of the Shrew' like heroine is awesome.  I am up for them changing some stuff like making Benedict gay or bi (his book was not a favorite of mine  -- I tend to dislike Cinderella re-tellings) or making Eloise a rabble rousing spinster (I liked her book but it would would not work for the tv series) but please, no pairing Anthony up with Sienna.

I sincerely doubt they'll make Sienna his heroine. I was on the fence about book pairings before I watched the season but now I'm pretty firmly on the "they'll keep at least the first four-five books intact" train, even if I might prefer a couple of them diverge. 

Anthony and Kate's story is pretty popular in general and they have a lot of meaty material to cover, more so than D/S. Kate connects to Anthony's past, fears and hopes in a way Sienna just can't. She also comes with a great supporting cast in Edwina, Mary and Newton. As well as more exploration of the Bridgertons in general with Edmund and Violet. I know they didn't hit Anthony's problems in the right place this season but I don't see him having to chose between say Edwina and Sienna is the same story at all. That's more Benedict and they were the same person anyway. 

I think they included Sienna a) to give Anthony more to do than be a complete ass about Daphne. B) Opera singer mistress story is sexy and scandalous for this Shondaland show c) to beef up some of the drama for his own story in the easiest way possible, even if it isn't like his book character who is afraid to love anyone romantically. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Featherhat

[Slakkie]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

I think they included Sienna a) to give Anthony more to do than be a complete ass about Daphne. B) Opera singer mistress story is sexy and scandalous for this Shondaland show c) to beef up some of the drama for his own story in the easiest way possible, even if it isn't like his book character who is afraid to love anyone romantically. 

I am thinking they had so much Sienna because she should be in that one scene in his library where Kate is hiding.

[bijoux]

29 minutes ago, Slakkie said:

I am thinking they had so much Sienna because she should be in that one scene in his library where Kate is hiding.

Possible, but it would feel weird in a way. Anthony flirting with the singer in the book was trying to detach himself from his burgeoning feelings for Kate. How much detachment could he get if he replays the scene with Sienna with whom he had a couple of idiotic and uncharacterist plans with? Really, in retrospect one has to laugh at him calling Colin immature when he was proposing fleeing to the continent and bringing Sienna to Daphne's ball.

[RachelKM]

From the Lady Whistledown thread:

1 minute ago, Jess14 said:

On the rest, I just think this goes to the problem of her being Lady W. All of this may be true with a regular young woman in town. But with Pen, clearly, she manages to get around at night and to hear about everyone’s business, write, and publish it just fine. She can’t be so savvy as to successfully and secretly write this column that has the whole ton gossiping, while also being so naive and constrained as to be unable to tell her best friend’s brother that he is about to be tricked into a bad situation.

 

This part does bother me.  In the book it is made very clear that Penelope gets her information basically by being utterly ignored to the point that she is hears things while being ignored.  In the show it was shown that Lady W didn't write about the queen's luncheon.  And, as it happens, Penelope hadn't been able to attend that event.  So she would have nothing to report.  But they leave out the whys and hows she comes into her info.

Also, I don't think anything was done with the fast turn around that would have had to happen with the Marina story.  (Although a plausible theory is that she'd already written it, decided it was too far and wanted to wait to try again to tell Colin, and then learned of the elopement.  But that is speculation out of whole cloth.)

 

[pigs-in-space]

15 hours ago, katha said:

Yeah, for all my issues with the adaptation, I am kinda gleeful that they are stomping all over most of Quinn's regressive views. She can't really say anything, because they are giving her money, but LOL. I hope they continue with that aspect. And how backwards she is can't really be explained with genre or her age or anything. Someone like Balogh, who is way older, has tried to adapt her writing. With failures, of course, but when called out for "Someone to Love", for example, she was gracious and able to take criticism. Kleypas has included working-class and non-white heroes in her historicals. It's not some grand progressive stance, but other established figures of the genre have been somewhat able to evolve beyond their comfort zones.

On the one hand I get that, but on the other hand she's getting money and kudos for it which isn't necessarily deserved and that definitely bugs me.

[Door County Cherry]

1 minute ago, pigs-in-space said:

On the one hand I get that, but on the other hand she's getting money and kudos for it which isn't necessarily deserved and that definitely bugs me.

She's getting money but has she really been getting kudos?  I do know that she has been smart in embracing the decision to have a more diverse cast. 

[ouinason]

The only bi main character in a Regency Romance novel I can think of is a Grace Burrows hero.  It was one of the Haddonfield brothers, though I can't remember which one.  One of her other heroes let people think he was gay to keep out of the marriage mart.

[EyewatchTV211]

From the episode 8, After the Rain thread:

I reread most of Romancing Mr. Bridgerton after watching the show so I could enjoy Penelope and Colin again. While Penelope did seem a bit young and naive on the show, it isn't like she was the one who figured out all that needed to be done to get published in the first place in the books. She originally just wrote for herself to get out her anger and frustration at the people who treated her poorly. Then, while going to the bathroom one day when everyone was out of the house, she had left her writing out and her father's solicitor happened to show up and read them and loved it. He was the one who set up everything for her. He was even the one who came up with the idea of giving it away for free the first two weeks before charging people. So while she didn't come across as maybe quite so young at the start of Lady W, she also wasn't fully the brains behind how the process all worked. 

[DearEvette]

That's fine.  But that is book canon.  That hasn't been established in tv show canon yet.  And we see her delivering her stuff to the publisher, by herself at night.  My point is that in tv show this proves that she can move about, get where she wants to be and be resourceful. So it doesn't make sense she could not have made time to get Colin alone and talk to him, especially since she saw their packed bags and had enough time to get her story to the publisher within hours to get that edition of Lady Whistledown out and about before Marina and Colin could leave the next morning.

[RachelKM]

9 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

So it doesn't make sense she could not have made time to get Colin alone and talk to him, especially since she saw their packed bags and had enough time to get her story to the publisher within hours to get that edition of Lady Whistledown out and about before Marina and Colin could leave the next morning.

It does, actually.  Even if show cannon is that Pen has an arrangement that allows her to meet with her publishing contact in the evening, it is not in anyway similar to her tracking down a bachelor.  

Penelope would have a standing relationship and means of communication with whomever she delivers her writings to.  Meeting this person is something she has the information necessary to arrange and method in place. And that person had reason to make this possible without detection or disclosure.

Colin could be anywhere in London.  I don't even recall if he had a bachelor residence or lived at the the family residence.  But there was no way for her to know if he was at either or to seek him at such a location.  Visiting a bachelor's residence would immediately ruin her (assuming he was even home) if ANY word of it got out.  If he lived in Bridgerton home, she could never arrive there in the middle of the evening and ask to speak to him.  Even running to Eloise to cry was a violation of norms, but she found her outside and only saw Eloise and Eloise was unlikely to mind or call her out for it even if she wasn't sobbing. 

If he wasn't at home (where ever he resided), anywhere else he was would be impossible for her to enter on her own if at all.  Gaming halls - Nope.  Gentlemens Clubs - No. Cant even enter either much less seek to speak with a bachelor.  At a social event? Not without an invitation and chaperone.

So no, even if she took certain risks and found a way to get messages to her publisher even at night, it does not follow that she had any ability to locate Colin, much less demand an audience with him, that night.  It was entirely possible she wouldn't see him at all in the normal course of a week if they didn't attend the same events.

[EyewatchTV211]

38 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

That's fine.  But that is book canon.  That hasn't been established in tv show canon yet.  And we see her delivering her stuff to the publisher, by herself at night.  My point is that in tv show this proves that she can move about, get where she wants to be and be resourceful. So it doesn't make sense she could not have made time to get Colin alone and talk to him, especially since she saw their packed bags and had enough time to get her story to the publisher within hours to get that edition of Lady Whistledown out and about before Marina and Colin could leave the next morning.

I actually wasn't explaining that related to the argument for how to handle the Colin/Marina situation. I was more using it related to your comment that she seemed very young on the show (as Penelope) compared to in the books. I would need to go back and reread how she came across in the earlier books when she was actually that age, since there's mostly just reference to her recalling, at age 28, how she was at the previous time. But it isn't like book Penelope was necessarily much more mature/savvy either, since she wasn't the one who figured out the publishing stuff. Thinking about it, it actually does seem kind of youthful that her first Lady W writings were her way of complaining about all the people who were mean to her and venting it. She was just skillful with writing.  

I still think the TV series will have to eventually keep the background about the solicitor doing much of the work setting her up if they want to maintain any sense of reality. No matter how intelligent or savvy people want to say TV Lady Whistledown is, even if TV Penelope truly shares those traits, there's no way a 17 y.o. society girl would have any idea how to set up a gossip column business, let alone make it actually happen when other people are involved in the process. 

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Colin could be anywhere in London.  I don't even recall if he had a bachelor residence or lived at the the family residence.  But there was no way for her to know if he was at either or to seek him at such a location.  Visiting a bachelor's residence would immediately ruin her (assuming he was even home) if ANY word of it got out.  If he lived in Bridgerton home, she could never arrive there in the middle of the evening and ask to speak to him.  Even running to Eloise to cry was a violation of norms, but she found her outside and only saw Eloise and Eloise was unlikely to mind or call her out for it even if she wasn't sobbing. 

I think his book references that he lived at the family residence still at that point. I could be recalling that incorrectly. 

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, EyewatchTV211 said:

 

I think his book references that he lived at the family residence still at that point. I could be recalling that incorrectly. 

In his book he lives at Violet's place for a while since his lease on his rooms was up during the time he spent in Greece. It's not this place, since Violet choses to move after Anthony and Kate marry. His book, more than 10 years down the line, doesn't mention anything about his living situation at this point in time. It really doesn't even matter since there is no Marina storyline like this one in the book. 

Oh God, it just hit me, I don't know that this Daphne is cut out for the Pall Mall scene. Since Anthony bans Hyacinth from going near his lucky mallet it's obviously planned, which hell, yes, but on the other hand, how will it work? I don't know that this Colin will work either. Daphne's pretty blood thirsty and Colin is more into mind games and annoying Anthony in the book. Maybe show Colin's deal with Marina and his travels, and Daphne... I don't know, becoming a mother, will push them more in the right direction. The Pall Mall scene is great because it's a group scene and each character pops. Edwina has no clue what these people are on about, but she's too much of a good sport to even think of complaining, Simon is aware that he's in a lunatic asylum, but whatcha gonna do, they were part of his dowry, Daphne is ready to throw down, Colin is basically performing psychological warfare with glee and Anthony and Kate just want to annihilate each other. It could and should be one of the highlights of prospective season 2, but you need to have the right players aligned. 

As the characters are now, I'd honestly swap out Colin and Daphne for Benedict and Eloise. Benedict seems much more lighthearted and honestly Colin-like than show Colin, and Eloise would be ready to cut a bitch, but then able to step back and enjoy the show once she saw what Kate was made of. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by bijoux

[Door County Cherry]

I was happy they mentioned the mallet in the season finale because it's clear that's a scene they intend to do.  But expectations are high so they better do it well.

[AllyB]

On 12/27/2020 at 6:31 PM, Slakkie said:

In the book her family is NOT wealthy (not poor) but she funnels some of her money through to her mother and sisters from a dead long lost uncle that helps keep them going but the rest of her wealth is hers

What money though? Lady Whistledown's newsletter just shows up at people's doors. There is no implication that any of the characters love it so much that they have taken out a paid subscription to this newsletter that comes out whenever Pen has gossip to share, rather then weekly/monthly/etc. And I very much doubt that Pen has the time or ability to traipse around London drumming up enough advertisers to make her freesheet newsletter profitable. If anything it would be costing her a fortune.

[bijoux]

I don't think it's giving too much away to say that in the books the first few issues were given free of charge. Then the paper boys stared charging but while people grumbled, they all paid. 

[DearEvette]

11 hours ago, RachelKM said:

It does, actually.  Even if show cannon is that Pen has an arrangement that allows her to meet with her publishing contact in the evening, it is not in anyway similar to her tracking down a bachelor.  

She knew they were going to Gretna Green in the morning.  If she really wanted to stop it, she could have intercepted them then.  And stopped the whole thing.  No it was easier to do that shit in the dark behind a screen of anonymity so Colin couldn't kill the messenger and she got to preserve herself while chucking Marina under the bus.

[RachelKM]

35 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

She knew they were going to Gretna Green in the morning.  If she really wanted to stop it, she could have intercepted them then.  And stopped the whole thing.  No it was easier to do that shit in the dark behind a screen of anonymity so Colin couldn't kill the messenger and she got to preserve herself while chucking Marina under the bus.

I suppose so.  But that would be cutting rather fine and risks missing them and risk her mother's wrath.  And again, Marina would be ruined if 1) Colin were to break it off (as opposed to allowing Marina to do so) or 2) anyone were to witness his morning arrival and no marriage took place.  The only true way out of the engagement for Marina was for her to break it off and then manage to marry immediately or leave London.

There would likely be some period of time in which people also believed that Colin abandoned her after getting her pregnant.  Assuming she was still in London when she gave birth, most people could do the math.  But the damage to Colin would be done for a while and only partially resolved when the timing was matched up.

I don't like what Penelope did.  But there were no good options. Possibly Pen could have chosen a better one. But she's a 17 year old girl with only one certain hand to play.