Book vs. Series: On The Shelf

[midge]

So glad for this thread.  I just got though Ep 4, but I kept trying to remember why I did not like the Duke and I when I originally read it 20 years ago.   I had forgotten about the YIKES thing, that was it.  I loved books 2, 3 & 4 (adored 4!) and thought 5 (Eloise & Phillip) was OK.  Didn't like 6, didn't bother with the rest. 

So far I think the series had gotten somethings right, some things wrong. 

- I like Lady Danbury!  I was afraid when I saw the previews, she just seems so different from what I imagined.  She's one of the reasons I loved Colin & Penelope's book so much. I m really enjoying her here. 

- I love the inclusivity of the cast and modern touches like  pop sings played by the orchestra at the balls.  Again, thought I would hate it. 

- Anthony bugs me.  Not that he's kind of a boor, that is true to form, but what was the deal with the opera singer? Book Anthony liked opera singers, we know, but he was afraid of loving someone because he assumes he's going to die young and leave them. Its the root of why he if often so terrible to Kate. So the idea that he was so enamored of someone that he was OK with basically running away with her if he killed Simon was just off. And book Anthony would not have pulled over on the side of the road to have a quickie against a tree in view of servants and the road. Come on. 

- Anyone have any idea why they have made Mrs. Featherington so mean? I always thought she was dumb, thoughtless and selfish but not vicious. And her being a widow was always at least part of the reason she was the way she was.   

- As I am only on ep5 I am worried about Penelope.   IMO they get her wrong and it could ruin everything.   

Maybe I am misremembering some things though.  I have books 2-5 and I have read them fairly recently but by now I think I just read my favorite parts and skip the rest. 

[Door County Cherry]

3 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Hopefully that one isn't representative of the quality of the rest of the books (though I see on Goodreads it has a very high rating, presumably because of readers' affection for Penelope).

I haven't read that book but your complaints about that book are the same complaints I had about The Duke and I.  Even though there were more tortured aspects to Daphne and Simon's love story (tortured aspects I hated), I felt they just kind of went from friends to in love.  I don't think she really built up the romance or chemistry all that well.  The TV show version could at least use actors, music and directing to highlight the attraction.  

So as an author, she's hit or miss I guess.  

9 minutes ago, midge said:

 So the idea that he was so enamored of someone that he was OK with basically running away with her if he killed Simon was just off.

I sort of saw this more as guilt than true love.  But I guess we'll see.  They can still play up the fear of dying young. 

[meligator]

It had to be Penelope but it was much more obvious in season one. I supposed they couldn’t hold the suspense any longer. 

[DearEvette]

20 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

And of course Sir Phillip Crane made an appearance, although this time his wife is not a distant Bridgerton cousin. I honestly would like to see them completely change Eloise's character arc, as I found Sir Phillip in the books to be a boor. I'd prefer to see poor Marina actually achieve some happiness with her new husband. 

Ah, thank you.  I hadn't gotten to the ep with Sir Phillip so I had literally no memory of Marina in the books.  The Duke and I was not one of my favorites in the series so I don't remember as much about that one.  I guess that  she and Phillip were added to this one to create the deep background.  But I agree with you, if they put her with Phillip just to kill her off so we know who she was when he gets with Eloise I'll have a sad. 

[bijoux]

I'm only two episodes in, but I don't expect they'll change something as major as one of the main pairings. If they get to Eloise's story, I have to imagine it'll be with Phillip. And sadly for Marina, I don't see another way of acomplishing that in that era. Maybe she'll have a better go of the short while she does have though. She didn't seem remotely depressed from what I've seen of her so far. 

[ursula]

Definitely rooting for Marina to have a HEA with Phillip. If they can rewrite her character as another family’s cousin, they can invent another Sir Phillip DifferentName for Eloise to end up with. To be honest, Eloise gives me strong asexual vibes, so I was surprised to read that she ends up in the same heteronormative arrangement as her sister. This season hasn’t established any kind of sexuality for her so if they’re looking for ways to explore positive inclusivity, she’s an easy option. Especially as the opposite -  the idea that the adaptation invented POC Marina to be the narrative’s punching bag - is disgusting. 

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, midge said:

 Anyone have any idea why they have made Mrs. Featherington so mean? I always thought she was dumb, thoughtless and selfish but not vicious. And her being a widow was always at least part of the reason she was the way she was.   

She did like a gossip, she wanted to be the one to tell everyone about the scandal of Anthony and Kate, I think she had a mean streak in her. She wasn't really portrayed as nasty but we also never saw much of the Featheringtons in most of the books. I imagine that they needed a schemer who was partly an antagonist and not supposed to be a good mother to move the plot along, as well as casting Polly Walker who is  known for her scheming matriarchs. I don't think Violet really matches with book Violet either. 

I'm not sure they'll change the major book pairings either, especially as I hoped they'd change a few things with Daphne/Simon that they didn't and just dragged out a short book plot over 8 eps whilst adding a lot of other things that would have been going on around them to flesh out the world. 

That said they may never get to book 5. 

I think they certainly could set Eloise up as Ace or Aro or otherwise determined to not to marry. However I got the vibe that they were going for Lizzie Bennet vibe, even if she isn't actually very much like her. Or any of the dozens of regency/other romance novel heroines who claim they don't like tonnish things or agree with society's morals only to fall madly in love with a wealthy titled man in their mid-late 20s. They might surprise me. But I did wonder if they switched Marina over to the Featheringtons so that Eloise didn't marry her cousin's husband which is weirder today than it was then.

I remember liking the book the first time I read it because it seemed interesting, I was a sucker for marriages of convenience turning out to be true love but on rereading it I wasn't a big fan of the pairing. Although this is one occasion where I enjoyed Anthony, Benedict and Colin all turning up and howling. It seemed like JQ was trying to go for a semi realistic look at 1800s mental illness and suicide as well as also being sympathetic and a non love match first wife and all the other tropes and it didn't really come together well.  

If it does happen then this show still has a lot of POC both men and women in all positions of regency society given agency, POV and storylines (and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Kate or Sophie were also POC) so it would be more this particular character got a shitty ending rather than them dumping on a POC for the sake of it, even though it definitely wouldn't be what I want. 

Quinn's attempts at LGBT characters in that era was in Gregory's book with Lucy being betrothed to a gay man who's father threatened to be the one to get heirs on her if he didn't. She ends up offering to find him a wife to have a Lavender marriage with and the plot is ridiculous even by Regency Lite standards. I can't remember any others from the others series. 

My favourite is still The Viscount who loved me. Whilst Anthony/Kate had their very ups and downs it made sense for their characters and didn't devolve into parody of love/hate and miscommunication like other books and writers so often do in the genre. 

 

[Mirabelle]

7 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

So I bought Romancing Mister Bridgerton after finishing the show because I wanted to see Penelope/Colin's story... Geez, that was boring. The opening chapter was utterly charming...and then it just went into one repetitive conversation about Lady Whistledown after another (who is she? Is it you? No, it's her! No, it's somebody else! Let's talk about her some more! Everybody talk about her!). Even if I hadn't been clued in by the show, it would have been obvious who it had to be; there would have been no payoff in the story if it wasn't one of the two main characters, because that much fixation on a secondary character when there was really nothing else going on with the main ones would have been a waste of time.

I liked that both of them were relatively untortured, especially as romance novel characters go (the back cover says she "stumbles upon his deepest secret;" what--that he writes journals? Pffft.). I generally liked how the Whistledown part played out in the second half post-reveal...but they had little chemistry, I had no idea when the falling in love happened on his side (she asks him to kiss her...then they fool around in his carriage, so they have to get married, and...that's it? He's in love with her now?), and there was no real plot (halfway through I was thinking, "Is anything ever going to happen???"). I assume they're going to have do a major rewrite for the show, and come up with an actual story where the characters...have things to do.

Hopefully that one isn't representative of the quality of the rest of the books (though I see on Goodreads it has a very high rating, presumably because of readers' affection for Penelope).

I think Romancing Mr. Bridgerton's popularity is more due to book Colin - I'm only 3 episodes in as I write this so I have no idea how much of an impression TV Colin makes by the end of the series - but Colin in the books often gets the funniest scenes especially when he's deliberately annoying his brothers.  

[BlackberryJam]

Show Colin comes off more as a likable dunce, which is annoying. Book Colin oozes charm and fun.

[bijoux]

Which is a damn shame because book Colin is such a charmer, he's witty and sharp but also kind, and someone you'd wish to be sat next to at a dinner party. And he's so verbal in the books so he should be pretty easy to translate well to screen. Instead, from what I've seen so far, he's filling out the background on the show. 

[BlackberryJam]

Just now, bijoux said:

Which is a damn shame because book Colin is such a charmer, he's witty and sharp but also kind, and someone you'd wish to be sat next to at a dinner party. And he's so verbal in the books so he should be pretty easy to translate well to screen. Instead, from what I've seen so far, he's filling out the background on the show. 

RIGHT! Other than asking Penelope to dance, there has been little to none of Colin’s personality, or his famous appetite. 

[bijoux]

Yes, they could have at least given him sandwiches to munch on if he's completely silent anyhow! 

[TheOtherOne]

1 hour ago, Mirabelle said:

I think Romancing Mr. Bridgerton's popularity is more due to book Colin - I'm only 3 episodes in as I write this so I have no idea how much of an impression TV Colin makes by the end of the series - but Colin in the books often gets the funniest scenes especially when he's deliberately annoying his brothers.  

I don't know. Maybe that's true in the other books, but I saw none of that in Romancing Mr. Bridgerton--there weren't many scenes with his brothers (Gregory was at school, I'm not sure Benedict ever appeared on the page--maybe at the final ball?--and Anthony's appearances were brief), and he wasn't particularly funny. (I did notice him constantly stuffing his face, which I guess was his schtick.) Several of the reviews on GR do mention that he was better in the other books, and more than one thought he was disappointing in his own. I know that Quinn kept saying how charming he was, but based on this book alone, I never would have believed it.

Edited December 26, 2020 by TheOtherOne

[DearEvette]

IIRC, The family dynamic is on display a lot more in Anthony's book, The Viscount Who Loved Me.  Colin's personality  comes to the forefront in that one.

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

18 hours ago, Featherhat said:

 

She's usually only mildly snarky about the Bridergtons and definitely snarky about the Featheringtons as an outlet. But never to ruin them just pointing out the ridiculousness. I think she was trying to get her mother to dress her differently by calling herself a "singed daffodil".  

She calls Kate a singed daffodil actually and calls herself an overripe citrus fruit. 

I think the show made Lady Whistledown meaner. She saved her harsh stuff for bullies and mean people. It's a point in the books that she's nicer to nice people and the Bridgertons were always nice to her. Penelope calls them her champions at one point. 

[BlackberryJam]

I found it difficult initially to distinguish between Anthony, Benedict and Colin. I think Benedict looks on the older side and kept thinking he should be Anthony. That was one problem I had translating the books to visual medium.

[DearEvette]

19 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I found it difficult initially to distinguish between Anthony, Benedict and Colin. I think Benedict looks on the older side and kept thinking he should be Anthony. That was one problem I had translating the books to visual medium.

Anthony has the sideburns.  That is how I figure out it is Anthony.  The Sideburns!

[BlackberryJam]

8 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Anthony has the sideburns.  That is how I figure out it is Anthony.  The Sideburns!

I went with "Colin is the one who looks dumb," "Benedict is the one who looks old" and "therefore the other one must be Anthony."

I was thoroughly disappointed with Lady Bridgerton, She was like a boring Ma Ingalls. I wanted her to be shorter and plumper and exuding more love.

 

[EyewatchTV211]

56 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I found it difficult initially to distinguish between Anthony, Benedict and Colin. I think Benedict looks on the older side and kept thinking he should be Anthony. That was one problem I had translating the books to visual medium.

I thought the exact same thing. I actually went to look up the actors on IMDB to see if the ages actually matched, but there was no age for the Benedict actor and I decided not to go crazy searching further for something insignificant. 

[Door County Cherry]

Anthony is played by Jonathan Bailey which is why I had no trouble figuring out who he was.  If I didn't already know that he'd be the star of one of the main love stories, his casting would have done it for me because he has been in a lot of things.  (My favorite is Crashing, though, by Phoebe Waller-Bridge. )  But you may have seen him in Broadchurch or Hooten and the Lady which were both in the US.  Tons of other UK things too.  

The actors who play Colin and Benedict (who I agree does seem older) haven't really been in as many things.  They might be terrific actors but I do question whether or not their love stories/their characters would be able to be the center of a season.  Especially Benedict's.  I read the description of his book and I can't even tell what the plot or story is?  

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I'm not sure they'll change the major book pairings either, especially as I hoped they'd change a few things with Daphne/Simon that they didn't and just dragged out a short book plot over 8 eps whilst adding a lot of other things that would have been going on around them to flesh out the world. 

I do think this show is likely going to get a second season.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was already part of Shonda's Netflix deal.  I also think I read that there are rumors of it going into production already in the early spring.  

And it looks like they're planning to do the first and second books more or less faithfully while building out the world.  But at some point, most adaptations do branch off from their source material.  I do wonder if the show would risk doing that with some of the main couples from the book series.  Maybe some of the less loved books?  It'd make some of the readers of the books mad, I'm sure, but I bet they're hoping the fan base is expanded by then.
 

I know I went from looking forward to Penelope and Colin's story to not wanting them together now.  I haven't read their book.  I would love to have Marina fall in love with Phillip and not kill her off.  I wouldn't mind for Eloise and/or Benedict to get romantic with members of the same sex.  Maybe members of both.

 

[EyewatchTV211]

3 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

The actors who play Colin and Benedict (who I agree does seem older) haven't really been in as many things.  They might be terrific actors but I do question whether or not their love stories/their characters would be able to be the center of a season.  Especially Benedict's.  I read the description of his book and I can't even tell what the plot or story is?  

Benedict's story is pretty much Cinderella. 

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I know I went from looking forward to Penelope and Colin's story to not wanting them together now. 

Yes, the only thing that would redeem the show for me now is if Penelope's selfish entitlement doesn't get rewarded by the narrative. I've gone from mild indifference to her potential romance with Colin to actively rooting against it.

[bijoux]

I don't remember, was Will a book character? A jaded duke having a sparring partner to pound the pain out of him certainly seems par for course. He and Alice are maybe the only characters not to get on my nerves. 

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, Rilla-my-Rilla said:

She calls Kate a singed daffodil actually and calls herself an overripe citrus fruit. 

I think the show made Lady Whistledown meaner. She saved her harsh stuff for bullies and mean people. It's a point in the books that she's nicer to nice people and the Bridgertons were always nice to her. Penelope calls them her champions at one point. 

Right, oops I remembered the paragraph in The Viscount but switched round the characters. 

 

6 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

 I do think this show is likely going to get a second season.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was already part of Shonda's Netflix deal.  I also think I read that there are rumors of it going into production already in the early spring.  

And it looks like they're planning to do the first and second books more or less faithfully while building out the world.  But at some point, most adaptations do branch off from their source material.  I do wonder if the show would risk doing that with some of the main couples from the book series.  Maybe some of the less loved books?  It'd make some of the readers of the books mad, I'm sure, but I bet they're hoping the fan base is expanded by then.
 

I know I went from looking forward to Penelope and Colin's story to not wanting them together now.  I haven't read their book.  I would love to have Marina fall in love with Phillip and not kill her off.  I wouldn't mind for Eloise and/or Benedict to get romantic with members of the same sex.  Maybe members of both.

I think it has been renewed for S2 and The Viscount who Loved Me can probably sustain a season better than Duke and I can I think. After that...

It wouldn't surprise me if they were less faithful going forward, but it also surprised me that whilst adding and changing quite a lot on the periphery that they kept the basic love story very intact beyond just the first meeting and inevitable HEA this time around. Once you get past Romancing the romances are definitely less popular and less well known, even though the books were still bestsellers. 

As said above Benedict's is a retelling of Cinderella with bastardy thrown in I think that could be fairly juicy for them to build 8 eps on with the ugly step sisters beefed up and all the side plots going on both from the book and their expanded world even though I certainly have my issues with the plot and found the book a bit trite (I thought it would be more interesting if she did become his mistress and they never married but that's the antithesis of romance novel and Sophie's character). I definitely wouldn't mind if they properly explored him having a same sex romance though.

I do question whether *this* Eloise can be happy in the country raising the twins of her dead acquaintance, even in 10 years time. If Marina is one the show for 2-3 seasons and we get to see her falling properly for Philip and their life together then it also definitely lessens the chances of that happening. Although this is Shondaland, home of musical beds. And if she doesn't show up again and with a time jump they could do it. 

I wasn't getting a queer vibe of Eloise, even with her close friendship with Penelope, more "spunky, modern heroine" trope but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. 

There's no way they don't do Penelope/Colin, apart from already setting it up it's too big a plotline to miss out. She behaved badly in order to protect Colin (and because she loved him) and Colin was an after though this season but it's also par for the course in romance novels and TV shows for a character to behave very badly and still "get the guy/girl". Even if they were being unfair and entitled because love. And the plan to try and marry Marina off and pretend the child was a premie was period appropriate but also extremely wrong, neither are innocent. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Featherhat

[bijoux]

I don't have a copy of The Viscount Who Loved Me to check, but I think you're right about that book holding up a season more easily. As for down the road, they'd probably do well to include two books' plots into one season. 

I certainly hope they get a good Kate for next season. 

[meatball77]

Eloise's story wouldn't work as a series at all (I guess maybe as a Christmas movie).  The entirety of the book takes place apart from the Ton.  It's just Phillip, Eloise and his kids with the Bridgerton's popping in to visit.  It also doesn't fit TV Eloise at all who they seem to have turned into a bluestocking.  I'd love for them to change her story to meeting someone while trying to fight for the rights of women or something else political.  She's also the one they could make queer easily.  Have her writing partner be Marina and have her go to visit Marina (after Phillip dies) and fall in love.  It would work perfectly.  I love Eloise's story (because I'm a sucker for romances with kids) but it wouldn't work with the series.

I also don't know how they could continue the series after Penny announces to the ton that she's Whistledown.

Edited December 27, 2020 by meatball77

[bijoux]

Isn't Francesca's story removed from the ton as well? I can't tell because I haven't actually read it but for some reason I always thought so. Don't all these stories happen somewhat simultaneously or in close succession? At least two of the three if not all could be compressed into a single season. 

[DanaMB]

Book vs series characters for me were hot and miss. 
 

Daphne- can’t remember how I felt about her in the book and don’t really have strong feelings for her in the series. 

Simon- pretty much the same as Daphne but the actor is so pretty and does smoldering  well so I choose series version. 
 

Bridgerton mother- much prefer the book version. I agree with whoever said they envisioned her as more plump and caring. And maybe they’ll address it in future eps, but I missed her encouraging her sins to dance with the wallflowers ( we find out she was one when she met their father). 
 

Colin- much prefer the book version but the last scene gave me hope.

 

Anthony- book version so far, but his story was my favorite so I’m holding out hope. 

Benedict-TV version so far. 
 

Eloise- I don’t even remember her book... Love her on the series  

Penelope- Definitely book version

Lady Danbury- love both but the tv version is awesome 

 

 

[Nidratime]

Quote

I wasn't getting a queer vibe of Eloise, even with her close friendship with Penelope, more "spunky, modern heroine" trope but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. 

Eloise is giving me a Jo March vibe.

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, Nidratime said:

Eloise is giving me a Jo March vibe.

She reminded me of the latest adaptation Jo as well. One of her outbursts was very similar to Jo's speech about women having minds and not just hearts. 

https://images.app.goo.gl/WKrtjbpCcE5R2aMt7

 

[libgirl2]

20 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Ah, thank you.  I hadn't gotten to the ep with Sir Phillip so I had literally no memory of Marina in the books.  The Duke and I was not one of my favorites in the series so I don't remember as much about that one.  I guess that  she and Phillip were added to this one to create the deep background.  But I agree with you, if they put her with Phillip just to kill her off so we know who she was when he gets with Eloise I'll have a sad. 

I seem to be one of the few that loved The Duke and I. 

[libgirl2]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

Yes, the only thing that would redeem the show for me now is if Penelope's selfish entitlement doesn't get rewarded by the narrative. I've gone from mild indifference to her potential romance with Colin to actively rooting against it.

I seem to also be one of the few that likes Penelope. She is treated so poorly by everyone, especially her family.... she is the fat, quiet one in the corner. What she did to Marina and Colin? She is a kid who loves this man, the one man who seems to treat her like a person and not a joke (I think they could have shown more of that). While what she did was not nice at all, can any of us say 100% we wouldn't do the same or be tempted, especially at that age. 

[UMAngela]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Isn't Francesca's story removed from the ton as well? I can't tell because I haven't actually read it but for some reason I always thought so. Don't all these stories happen somewhat simultaneously or in close succession? At least two of the three if not all could be compressed into a single season. 

They do. Eloise runs off soon after Colin and Pen get married (the night they reveal Whistledown). There’s a plot point in book 4 where Colin thinks Eloise is Lady W because she spends most of the book hiding in her room / writing.  And Francesca and Michael miss Eloise’s wedding, as they are up in Scotland, and decide to marry. In book 6, we see Colin also providing counsel to Michael as he’s coming to realize he’s in love with Pen. 
 

So I agree, those three stories could be compressed into one to two seasons. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by UMAngela

[ursula]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

she is the fat, quiet one in the corner.

1. Penelope has more advantages and privileges than her cousin. Marina isn't as high in the aristocracy, is from the country, wasn't protected from George's affections. She was treated with derision by Penelope's family at her arrival and we're led to assume that this is still better than what she'd have got from her own home. Then the subtle implications that racial equality is a recent evolution, based on the whim of the King. 

2. Penelope was fine with Marina's scheme until it got in the way of her crush.  

3. As Mrs W, Penelope is a powerful influencer with an independent income.

So an entitled, powerful, wealthy woman ruins a family member from a lower social class, no means of supporting herself, and little agency in a world where Pen knows the rules better than Marina does based on sheer pettiness and hypocrisy.

 

But since Penelope is "fat", she is the underdog and not the villain?

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[Mirabelle]

In the book series, there's a time jump between An Offer from a Gentleman and Romancing Mr. Bridgerton - Colin is in his thirties and Penelope is in her late twenties when they fall in love. Plenty of time for both to mature and develop as people. I'm not sure if the actual book version of RMB could sustain a season but (and I say this as someone who has still only seen the first three episodes) the plot elements from the later episodes and Lady Whistledown's nastier edge could provide enough conflict to beef up a season.  Lady Whistledown basically went from being the ton's version of the Fug Girls to Perez Hilton. 

[BlackberryJam]

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

1. Penelope has more advantages and privileges than her cousin. Marina isn't as high in the aristocracy, is from the country, wasn't protected from George's affections. She was treated with derision by Penelope's family at her arrival and we're led to assume that this is still better than what she'd have got from her own home. Then the subtle implications that racial equality is a recent evolution, based on the whim of the King. 

2. Penelope was fine with Marina's scheme until it got in the way of her crush.  

3. As Mrs W, Penelope is a powerful influencer with an independent income.

So an entitled, powerful, wealthy woman ruins a family member from a lower social class, no means of supporting herself, and little agency in a world where Pen knows the rules better than Marina does based on sheer pettiness and hypocrisy.

 

But since Penelope is "fat", she is the underdog and not the villain?

We have no idea about Marina’s background or her privilege. What we know is that she’s foisted off on Portia Featherington to ‘bring her out’ and Portia is pissed that yet another young woman is going to be competing against her daughters in the marriage market. Portia’s rant about her is all about Portia.

We have no idea that Marina needed or wanted protection from George’s affections. What we know is that Marina’s father, likely knowing she was pregnant or could be pregnant, dumped her off on to a family that owes him money to make her someone else’s problem. Having a pregnant girl in the household put all of the Featherington daughters at risk, as we see from them being thrown out of the Queen’s tea.

Penelope is a teenage girl who has no idea what sex is, and barely understands love. I thought it was pretty clear in the show, but perhaps it wasn’t, but this was Lady Whistledown’s first ‘season.’ Penelope had no idea if this venture was going to make money or not and Penelope was at constant risk of exposure. On top of that, IF Penelope has made money, she’d have to find a way to get it to her family without exposing herself.

This idea that she’s this vicious villain just doesn’t jib with the narrative.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

We have no idea about Marina’s background or her privilege.

It was established at her introduction, which is why Mrs F was making fun of her for being basically a farm girl. Her family are comfortable but not "society". We're also aware of the tenuosity of racial status where even a Dukedom isn't assured of continuity. Marina herself points out that the F are wealthy and privileged over herself. All these are facts that you have to ignore to support your position.

 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Penelope is a teenage girl who has no idea what sex is, and barely understands love. I thought it was pretty clear in the show, but perhaps it wasn’t, but this was Lady Whistledown’s first ‘season.’ Penelope had no idea if this venture was going to make money or not and Penelope was at constant risk of exposure. On top of that, IF Penelope has made money, she’d have to find a way to get it to her family without exposing herself.

 

Penelope acts naive to cover up her double life. She knows enough about sex to understand that it's suspicious that a widow's son looks like a footman. Her missives as Mrs W are worldly and knowing. She has resources to run her business and keep them in secrecy.

You're assuming she wants to get the money to her family when in reality, she's probably happier with her private income. She showed she didn't care enough about their well-being when she basically went on a revenge spree. 

And pointing out the risks of her endeavor just makes her actions against Marina more malicious and spiteful. She was fine with risking her sisters because she had her own independent income.

We have no idea that Marina needed or wanted protection from George’s affections. 

Well the fact that she was pregnant and alone and needed her naivete knocked out of her is enough evidence. Marina is a teenage girl too yet you somehow assume she was basically a whore who knew what she was doing and chose to "ruin" herself and deserved everything she got. 

 

Seriously, if the only way to justify Penelope's behavior is to ignore the actual canon, then that pretty much proves her actions are not justifiable. Being "fat" isn't some kind of canon-warping superpower.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[BlackberryJam]

I didn’t say Marina was a whore, closet or otherwise. In fact, I’ve said repeatedly that these are two teenage girls making horrible decisions based on limited options and even more limited information. 

But painting Penelope as a vicious villain swings too far the other way as well and doesn’t follow actual canon. If that’s the read someone wants to take, it’s a reach, but it’s there if someone wants it. It’s just not pure canon. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by BlackberryJam

[Nidratime]

I can't remember the details from the books that well, but I believe Penelope did try and get money to her mother. I don't recall how well she succeeded, but I think she was able to help out anonymously.

[BlackberryJam]

Just now, Nidratime said:

I can't remember the details from the books that well, but I believe Penelope did try and get money to her mother. I don't recall how well she succeeded, but I think she was able to help out anonymously.

She is able to get money to her family, but that’s after the death of her father. Penelope’s book takes place ten years down the road. That’s when she’s actually made money off of Whistledown. She sets up what looks to be an inheritance for Portia from a distant relative. 

Bookverse Marina has longstanding mental health issues, right? And she commits suicide? That’s all in Eloise’s book, I think. I thought Eloise’s book was a total snore. It’s been a while since I read The Duke and I and it wasn’t one I had wanted to re-read. 

 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

 

But since Penelope is "fat", she is the underdog and not the villain?

I grew up like a Penelope, so maybe I "get" her. I had a gorgeous best friend who always got the guy. I remember how awful that felt. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by libgirl2

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

In fact, I’ve said repeatedly that these are two teenage girls making horrible decisions based on limited options and even more limited information. 

When one person has less power, status, agency, money and is in a life-ruining situation and is doing her best to save herself and others from it ---- and the other girl is just "fat", then claiming they're equal in wrongness is just "two siding".

I did a quick check and I didn't see anything on Marina being a teenage girl. However you said:

48 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

We have no idea that Marina needed or wanted protection from George’s affections.

So basically she knew what she was doing? If I read that wrong you can correct me.

 

5 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

But painting Penelope as a vicious villain swings too far the other way as well and doesn’t follow actual canon.

She was legit villain smirking. If she had a moustache, she'd be twirling it but ok.

 

I'm sorry but I just can't get with the idea that Penelope being "fat" so she can't be a really bad person.

[bijoux]

58 minutes ago, Mirabelle said:

In the book series, there's a time jump between An Offer from a Gentleman and Romancing Mr. Bridgerton - Colin is in his thirties and Penelope is in her late twenties when they fall in love. Plenty of time for both to mature and develop as people. I'm not sure if the actual book version of RMB could sustain a season but (and I say this as someone who has still only seen the first three episodes) the plot elements from the later episodes and Lady Whistledown's nastier edge could provide enough conflict to beef up a season.  Lady Whistledown basically went from being the ton's version of the Fug Girls to Perez Hilton. 

One thing I'm hoping for is that this mess pushes Penelope towards being a Lady Whistledown more similar to the books. Insightful, funny and scathing but not malicious. 

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

It was established at her introduction, which is why Mrs F was making fun of her for being basically a farm girl. Her family are comfortable but not "society". We're also aware of the tenuosity of racial status where even a Dukedom isn't assured of continuity. All these are facts that you have to ignore to support your position.

What do you mean about the dukedom? The fact that the previous Duke of Hastings was obsessed with it? That's very much true in the book as well as far as I recall, and certainly a regular feature in literature. 

2 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I can't remember the details from the books that well, but I believe Penelope did try and get money to her mother. I don't recall how well she succeeded, but I think she was able to help out anonymously.

She syphoned it as an inheritance from a deceased aunt with the help of the family solicitor who helped her set up the Lady Whistledown operation in the first place. 

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I grew up like a Penelope, so maybe I "get" her. 

Did you ruin people who got in the way of your crush? Being fat isn't a personality trait or a virtue.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

Being fat isn't a personality trait or a virtue unless you mean you ruined people who got in the way of your crush?

No, but do you know what it is like to be treated as less than because of your size? Do you know what it is like to have some random guy come up to you in the hallway and say "you are ugly"? So while I wouldn't ruin someone, I know how heartbreaking it is to see someone you really like ignore you for the "pretty one". Just because you are overweight and awkward? 

 

[alrightokay]

I haven’t read the books but enjoyed the Netflix series.  I’m eager to watch the subsequent series but am hoping to be spoiled about one thing: who inherits the Featherington fortune?  Is it a character we’ve already met or someone new? Thanks!

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

No, but do you know what it is like to be treated as less than because of your size? Do you know what it is like to have some random guy come up to you in the hallway and say "you are ugly"? So while I wouldn't ruin someone, I know how heartbreaking it is to see someone you really like ignore you for the "pretty one". Just because you are overweight and awkward? 

 

I also remember being told I would be pretty if I lost weight. 

Just now, alrightokay said:

I haven’t read the books but enjoyed the Netflix series.  I’m eager to watch the subsequent series but am hoping to be spoiled about one thing: who inherits the Featherington fortune?  Is it a character we’ve already met or someone new? Thanks!

I don't remember! 

[ursula]

Just now, libgirl2 said:

No, but do you know what it is like to be treated as less than because of your size? Do you know what it is like to have some random guy come up to you in the hallway and say "you are ugly"?

Not to do oppression Olympics but I was the fat and Black and nerdy kid in a majorly white neighborhood. So threefer! Would that have justified me hurting someone with less privilege than me? I could have told myself that this made it ok but I would have been wrong. And that's all I'm going to say about this.

 

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

When one person has less power, status, agency, money and is in a life-ruining situation and is doing her best to save herself and others from it ---- and the other girl is just "fat", then claiming they're equal in wrongness is just "two siding".

I did a quick check and I didn't see anything on Marina being a teenage girl. However you said:

So basically she knew what she was doing? If I read that wrong you can correct me.

 

She was legit villain smirking. If she had a moustache, she'd be twirling it but ok.

 

I'm sorry but I just can't get with the idea that Penelope being "fat" so she can't be a really bad person.

I’m not going to go through every post in every thread, but I know that’s been my point all along.

I never said Marina knew what she was doing. I said we didn’t know how the situation between Marina and George developed or progressed, so we can’t jump to the conclusions. 

Upon her introduction to the ton, Marina had massive amounts of power and status. She, with almost no effort at all, replaced that season’s Diamond of the First Water. She had men falling at her feet, and she refused them all for George. She had agency and used it poorly. It was only after Portia discovered that Marina was pregnant that her options narrowed. 

This is part of why I have huge problems for the writing of Marina. Her characterization is wildly inconsistent. At one point, she rejects dozens of completely acceptable suitors for love, then she gives up on George, then when Penelope reveals George didn’t dump her, she doesn’t care, she’s going for what she wants, flip again and she attempts to abort, and then even though she’s still ‘ruined’ by societal standards, she’s still rejecting a not gross guy trying to do the nice thing, oh then she has the babies (twins, if anyone missed it), she’s fine marrying him. They changed Marina’s motivations and desires to fit whatever scene they needed to move the plot along. They do a real disservice to what could have been a good character. 

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, alrightokay said:

I haven’t read the books but enjoyed the Netflix series.  I’m eager to watch the subsequent series but am hoping to be spoiled about one thing: who inherits the Featherington fortune?  Is it a character we’ve already met or someone new? Thanks!

I don't think there is such a character in the books. Mr. Featherington was dead before the book series started as I recall and there was no one mentioned in such capacity. I think this is a show development. They may introduce a new character or repurpose an existing one.