Season 5: All Episodes Talk

[ChicagoCita]

I can't remember at what point in the show it happened, but JTF did a great eyeroll at the antics of his great-grandfather at some point. I actually rewound the DVR to watch it.  He seems like someone who would be fun in real life.

 

I'm a little surprised by all the genealogists who show up at random locations to do the explanations to the show's subject.  For example, they sent Jesse to Evanston, Illinois, to be given a piece of paper by someone from Carnegie-Mellon.  I enjoyed the local exposure for my neighboring suburb, but really, did he have to be in Evanston at all?

[Bubbacat]

That's an excellent point, ChicagoCita. I often wonder about that myself. Most of the research and info that they find can easily be accessed online these days, so they really don't need to travel anywhere for most of it. I think they do it so that the viewers "identify" more with the subject. "Oh, look! That's my hometown. I know that street!" LOL! Yes, the locations do sometimes seem pretty random. "Hey, Great-Great-Great Grandpa lived in Moline for a week. Let's go there." But I fully admit that I got all excited when they ended up in eastern Pennsylvania (where I live), and I really want them to feature someone from southeastern Michigan (where I'm from). Yep, I'm a "location sucker." Heh.

[Galloway Cave]

I think the show is showing the viewer and the show's subject the best of both worlds- the online searches as well as holding the original books and documents in their hands. I know I'm the kind of person who loves to see the old books, smell the old smells and see the old handwriting. Plus who wouldn't want one of those really cool flow charts they create? I remember Robert Downey Junior getting all excited about his massive genealogy chart one of these shows made for him and calling off-camera for his wife to get the framer on the phone pronto!

[ChicagoCita]

I do love going through old documents (and I'm doing so this week on a road trip), but in the case of the Evanston Library, there was nothing there.  He knew his ancestor lived in Evanston, so they went there, he met a researcher from Carnegie-Mellon, who gave him a timeline previously created.  I didn't see anything having to do with Evanston, which is wacky to me.  I think they could have spent the time better somewhere else.  I loved the Alaska part, which certainly added to his understanding about the conditions Ancestor Jesse faced.  I love when they go and can see the actual documents.  But this ... I didn't see the point of it.

 

*My favorite story in going to original documents:  I found the record of my 3x-great-grandparents' marriage in a handwritten log in Ohio from the 1820s. Not much there.  EXCEPT -- they were married two years after the date in the family Bible, and a good year after the birth of their first child.  When they moved to Illinois, the marriage date got pushed back to a "respectable" year.  I felt a little guilty.  Here they had made efforts to hide the birth of (what was then termed) an illegitimate baby, and nearly 200 years later, a nosy descendant found out their secret.  Sorry, Great-Great-Great-Grandma and Grandpa.

Edited August 4, 2014 by ChicagoCita

[Galloway Cave]

I think ALL of our ancestors would roll over in their graves at the thought of all their secrets getting unearthed in this day and age of genealogy and the internet. Way back when, no one was really interested in where they came from or who their ancestors were, names and dates, or even true family connections. Information in family Bibles was the closest thing to genealogy data and as you said, kind of served a purpose for family dialog. Then along came the Mormon libraries and Roots and things kind of exploded. Now, everything is laid bare. For example, I found my long-lost deceased grandmother and I'm finding out about her numerous husbands/significant others, including her last husband. The thing is, he only knew about two other husbands and didn't know my father existed. Hello, instant family!

 

Maybe JTF just wanted a good meal in the Chicago area ;)

Edited August 4, 2014 by Galloway Cave

[iMonrey]

So I know Rachel McAdams from exactly nothing. She's been in a bunch of movies I've never seen. Still, her story was interesting if disjointed. Kind of like Sarah Jessica Parker's - McAdams explored one branch of the family tree then abruptly jumped branches for reasons I don't quite get. She followed her lineage back to England where her 3x great grandfather worked as a footman. OK, that's kind of interesting, but they never explained how his wife and child made their way to Canada. Instead, they went back to Canada and traced a different branch of the family tree. WTF? If they couldn't find any info on the footman's wife and child and how they got to Canada maybe they shouldn't have included them in the story. Did they figure "footman" was just too interesting to pass up, because of the popularity of Downton Abbey?

 

I'd never seen the Gwyneth Paltrow episode before. The story about her great grandmother coming from Barbados was kind of interesting; the story about her great grandfather being a Rabbi, not so much. Another disjointed episode. I prefer the ones where they stick to one particular branch.

[roamyn]

Yeah, I thought the McAdams one kind of boring. So her 5x grt-grandfather was a footman. So what? And that house was all kinds of ugly.

[millk]

I knew the MaAdams would be something UEL because it is an American show. Wonder if someone in the family will take it further and get their designation. (you can get official letters after your name Rachel McAdams UEL.)

The servant expert they talked to in England Dr Pamela Cox has done a few documentaries on the history of service. I think she was a good presenter.They are on youtube under *the real downton abbey* I watched it as a 3 parter.

[Azaelia]

I was confused by the sudden shift in research too. OTOH, I do genealogy and sometimes that  happens to us in real life - we reach a dead end, so we focus on someone else. But not without preamble. And you usually reach the dead end going forward, not backwards...

 

I did wonder why they  felt the need to rehash the causes of the Revolutionary War? I would have liked to have known a bit more about what loyalists went through when they came to Canada, as opposed to information I learned in school. But the show does this often, it seems. Is it for international viewers?  People who didn't pay as much attention in history as I did? Because the latter I can understand.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Azaelia

[Ina123]

I knew the MaAdams would be something UEL because it is an American show. Wonder if someone in the family will take it further and get their designation. (you can get official letters after your name Rachel McAdams UEL.)

The servant expert they talked to in England Dr Pamela Cox has done a few documentaries on the history of service. I think she was a good presenter.They are on youtube under *the real downton abbey* I watched it as a 3 parter.

Umm...I watched the episode but I can't remember. What is "UEL"?

[iMonrey]

UEL = United Empire Loyalists. 

[Blergh]

I wonder if the 3X great-grandfather may have gotten the DTs from trying to STOP drinking? Unfortunately, at that time, there was no other treatment for chronic alcoholism than to abruptly quit cold turkey and sometimes the body wasn't able to withstand the convulsions, etc. from the DT's. Yeah, why didn't they make any effort to find out why and when 2X great-grandpa left England for Canada [and whether his mother went with him or he left on his own].

   Agree,too, that it would have been interesting to have found out re more detail of the Loyalist ancestors [and how long their line had been in North America before the US Revolution]. While it's true that many Loyalists were rewarded by Great Britain with land,etc. it should also be noted that by the sudden, unexpected migration of them a mere dozen years after the Seven Years/French and Indian War somewhat upset the     already shaky balance re differing ethnicities in Canada.

 

IMO, what was most frustrating here is that the McAdams' sisters didn't seem to want to make the tiniest effort to actually search anything themselves but were perfectly content to have their mother and the researchers do all the work on their behalf..

[vera charles]

I have watched so many episodes and found almost all of them to be genuinely fascinating. I would have to say that the McAdams sisters and Gwyneth Paltrow were among the least interesting to me, if only because the subjects themselves didn't seem to be very interested in the process. They kind of bopped along, going from expert to expert, without asking too many questions. I also wonder why there wasn't an explanation of how the child of the footman, or whoever in that line, got across the Atlantic. Somebody emigrated at some point, surely there is some record of who and when.

[millk]

I wonder if the ancestor got to North America via some sort of home child/Barnardo thing since it does seem they were lower class. But what would I know. (I'm a descendant of a home child - poor children sent to Canada to work as farm labourers) Some agencies kept great records and others didn't.

 

My one line got here around the time of the Revolution and left because they were loyal to the crown but not willingly. After my ancestor had his land taken and he was hanged and lived. You can only hang a man once so they shipped him and his family off to Canada. 

[attica]

I'm getting a kick out of the show's practice of blurring the logos on the cars. Because I can't discern the Chevy badge when blurry, or recognize a Prius from its shape. Not. Why aren't they getting promotional consideration from a car company? Sloppy producing.

[Arynm]

Valerie Bertinelli was a lot of fun. She was so excited to hear all about her origins and the coat of arms. My husband has a surname that has a coat of arms as well, so I think it is very cool. She seemed genuinely interested and connected to the stories of her ancestors. 

[Intuition]

I love Valerie, although 3 things struck me in this episode - 1st is that she slipped up when looking at the old book and said, "That's my 14th great grandmother".  OK, so now we know she already knew that and was faking her surprise like she was just at that moment finding all of this out.

 

Secondly, I checked my family tree (which is extensive) and found that I too descend from Edward I.  I would imagine that when you go back that far half of Europe likely is, so I  suppose if you're that into genealogy and know this stuff (like me) it kind of takes away from the "wow" factor. 

 

Thirdly, wow, I never got a load of Valerie's "old lady" hands before this - I'm 2 years older than she is and my hands don't come close to looking that bad!

 

Last week's show also struck me as interesting to see things from a Canadian POV.  The McAdams sisters were proud of their loyalist ancestors.  Wow, coming from Mayflower roots on my Dad's side with scores of ancestors who fought on the separatist side in the Revolution and being quite proud of that, I found them fascinating.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Intuition

[Bella]

I love Valerie, although 3 things struck me in this episode - 1st is that she slipped up when looking at the old book and said, "That's my 14th great grandmother".  OK, so now we know she already knew that and was faking her surprise like she was just at that moment finding all of this out.

 

Secondly, I checked my family tree (which is extensive) and found that I too descend from Edward I.  I would imagine that when you go back that far half of Europe likely is, so I  suppose if you're that into genealogy and know this stuff (like me) it kind of takes away from the "wow" factor. 

 

Thirdly, wow, I never got a load of Valerie's "old lady" hands before this - I'm 2 years older than she is and my hands don't come close to looking that bad!

 

Last week's show also struck me as interesting to see things from a Canadian POV.  The McAdams sisters were proud of their loyalist ancestors.  Wow, coming from Mayflower roots on my Dad's side with scores of ancestors who fought on the separatist side in the Revolution and being quite proud of that, I found them fascinating.

 

I'm pretty sure she used to smoke, which ages skin, and not just on the face. Maybe sun exposure affected her hands, too?

 

Regarding the Canadian POV regarding the Revolutionary War, I get these tiny little books from the Traveller's History series when I want to learn about a country's basic history without going into a lot of detail. Here's the one on Canada. It was really interesting to get the Canadian view of the Revolution and some other aspects of North American history.

[Bubbacat]

 

Secondly, I checked my family tree (which is extensive) and found that I too descend from Edward I.  I would imagine that when you go back that far half of Europe likely is, so I  suppose if you're that into genealogy and know this stuff (like me) it kind of takes away from the "wow" factor.

LOL! Yep, I'm another descendant of Edward I. I cracked up a little at that last night. "Hey! I'm Valerie Bertinelli's long-lost cousin." But I really did like her and her enthusiasm.

[attica]

Edward 1 is the king that conquered the Welsh, expelled the Jews, and squashed the Scots (Patrick McGoohan played him in Braveheart). An important king; not a nice one.

 

A fun story all the way around. Val seemed to do that annoying thing where every action an ancestor takes is interpreted in the most flattering light. Not every hiding-from-a-homicidal-hubby is "brave" or "strong". Sometimes it's just lucky. Still, her enthusiasm is infectious.

 

I wonder if the Italian cousin has kids that want to shred with Wolfie and his dad...

[TiredMe]

I enjoyed the Valerie episode a lot. Maybe because several years back my family found our long lost Italian relatives and visited them there as well. So I was very affected by that segment.

I think it's cool that she was decended from a king.

Edited August 14, 2014 by TiredMe

[JennyMominFL]

LOL! Yep, I'm another descendant of Edward I. I cracked up a little at that last night. "Hey! I'm Valerie Bertinelli's long-lost cousin." But I really did like her and her enthusiasm.

Well hey cousin. I think we are 25th cousins then. And my line goes through Quakers in Pa like Valerie

[Shannon L.]

 

Secondly, I checked my family tree (which is extensive) and found that I too descend from Edward I.  I would imagine that when you go back that far half of Europe likely is, so I  suppose if you're that into genealogy and know this stuff (like me) it kind of takes away from the "wow" factor.

LOL! Yep, I'm another descendant of Edward I. I cracked up a little at that last night. "Hey! I'm Valerie Bertinelli's long-lost cousin." But I really did like her and her enthusiasm.

 

I'm a lurker here, but can I ask you two a question or two?  I've been toying with researching my family lines, understanding that it's not as easy as it sounds on the show, and was wondering just how good ancestry.com was and what other sites are available. Or do you just have some great family stories and heirlooms that were passed down so you just always knew? Were you lucky enough to have been able to visit the place of your family's origins to get more information?  I'm trying to get an idea of just how much work goes into it and how expensive it could get to go far. 

 

I've always like Valerie Bertanelli, so this one was fun for me.  Loved her enthusiasm.  There was another episode a couple of seasons back where one of the celebrities met a cousin and I thought that was great.  This one was especially so since the letter said that maybe someday someone from the family would come back. 

[Galloway Cave]

 

was wondering just how good ancestry.com was and what other sites are available.

@Shannon L. take a look at the thread in this forum "Chasing Leaves: Genealogy Talk" for discussion on ancestry searches. Ancestry.com is a good place to start, as well as FamilySearch.org. Rather than cluttering up the episode thread with search-related discussion, your questions can be answered at the other thread. Ask away over there! I few of us here have done a bit of ancestry work.

[iMonrey]

If you can trace your ancestry back to England, there's a good chance you can find some branch of the family tree descended from royalty. Kings had bastard children right and left in the middle ages (both Princess Diana and Sarah Ferguson were descended from Charles II that way). What I didn't quite catch is whether she was descended from a legitimate daughter of Edward I. They sort of glossed over that. Also, they took a rather convoluted path to trace her ancestry back to her - the father's mother's father's mother's father's mother's mother's father's father's mother . . . etc. That's a lot of jumping around and not a direct line of ancestry.

 

First time I'd seen the Brooke Shields one, obviously paired with Bertinelli's since she too could trace her roots back to royalty. Her mother's side of the story was very sad though.

[Shannon L.]

Sorry, @Galloway Cave!  I should've known to look for another thread before posting.  I'll head over there soon.

[Galloway Cave]

No need to apologize! It's just when you get some of us (uh, me) talking about genealogy, we can go on and on and on......

[JennyMominFL]

Techincally, As long a a line descends from aa parent to a parent, to parent to a parent , of either sex it is a direct line. The opposite of this is a collateral line, in which the connection comes through uncles, siblings etc. Your father's mothers father is still your direct Gr Grandparent .   

[berkshire]

I just watched the Valarie Bertinelli episode.  I have to say, I really would question her (gg?)grandmother's claim that her husband thought he killed her, and committed suicide as a result.  So, at 5am the husband comes in to where she's sleeping - and I would presume the wife was sleeping since she was still in bed.  She claimed he tried shooting her twice and that she 'rolled to the floor in her bedclothes and played dead', and that a few minutes later she heard a shot and found her husband shot himself in the temple?  That sounds VERY sketchy to me.  How does a guy miss....twice....when someone is asleep in bed?  The episode didn't mention ANY injuries to his wife.  And, she claims to have fallen to the floor and the husband doesn't even check?  Really?

 

It would make far more sense that she had a reason/desire to be rid of her husband, shot him in the temple at 5am (awake or asleep, who knows), shot two bullets after that into their bed to cover her tracks.

 

Any other thoughts on this?

[Ina123]

It would make far more sense that she had a reason/desire to be rid of her husband, shot him in the temple at 5am (awake or asleep, who knows), shot two bullets after that into their bed to cover her tracks.

 

Any other thoughts on this?

Homicide Hunter Lt. Joe Kenda says "Guilty".

[wlk68]

I have English and Italian ancestry as well so I really enjoyed Valerie's episode. Her enthusiasm was fun to watch and she seems like such a sweetheart. I loved her on One Day at a Time back in the day and remember when she married Eddie Van Halen. They seemed like such an odd match.

 

And apropos of absolutely nothing:

Thirdly, wow, I never got a load of Valerie's "old lady" hands before this - I'm 2 years older than she is and my hands don't come close to looking that bad!

 

 

This comment had me reaching for the jar of hand cream I keep in the drawer of my desk.

[Intuition]

 

I just watched the Valarie Bertinelli episode.  I have to say, I really would question her (gg?)grandmother's claim that her husband thought he killed her, and committed suicide as a result.  So, at 5am the husband comes in to where she's sleeping - and I would presume the wife was sleeping since she was still in bed.  She claimed he tried shooting her twice and that she 'rolled to the floor in her bedclothes and played dead', and that a few minutes later she heard a shot and found her husband shot himself in the temple?  That sounds VERY sketchy to me.  How does a guy miss....twice....when someone is asleep in bed?  The episode didn't mention ANY injuries to his wife.  And, she claims to have fallen to the floor and the husband doesn't even check?  Really?

 

My husband and I thought the same thing.  We figure that back in that day they would never have thought she was the killer, but given what a strong person she seemed to be, I wouldn't have put it passed her.  But you know, women in those days were also pretty victimized by men and you never know, she may have had good cause to want to be rid of him, not that I would ever in a million years condone murder as a way out of it, but thinking back to the way a woman's life was in that time and place she may have not had many other options.

[Intuition]

As to Valerie's hands - I used to smoke and tan back in the day but still my skin is nowhere near as bad as that.  Then again I never lived a rocker chick druggy lifestyle either.  I am half Italian on my mother's side and half English/French/German on my Dad's so perhaps I inherited more of that supple Italian skin, who knows?  Although I'm about as white as Valerie, so....

 

Valerie, Rachael Ray and I all share that half Italian/half English middle European thing and we all resemble each other quite a bit.  I also liked the segment where she met the 3rd cousin as I have 3rd cousins in a little town on the Southeastern coast of Sicily that I would love to meet one day (It's on the bucket list).

Edited August 15, 2014 by Intuition

[Galloway Cave]

The theme of the season is Gunshots in Bed at Night. First Cynthia Nixon's ancestor shot her abusive husband in bed, then Jesse Tyler Ferguson's grandfather shot his aunt while they were sleeping in the same bed, now Valerie's gg-grandmother's story. Makes you wonder what's in store for us with the rest of the stories!

 

You can try and hide age on a person's face with Botox and face lifts and whatnot, but the hands always give the age away. Unfortunately mine say I'm about 95 (Scottish/German; work outdoors).

[Evanscody]

I was rooting for the family crest. Yay Wolfie!!

[kassa]

 

The theme of the season is Gunshots in Bed at Night. First Cynthia Nixon's ancestor shot her abusive husband in bed, then Jesse Tyler Ferguson's grandfather shot his aunt while they were sleeping in the same bed, now Valerie's gg-grandmother's story. Makes you wonder what's in store for us with the rest of the stories!

I immediately thought of Kelsey Grammer, because I know his father and his sister were both murdered (separately).  Didn't want to post that without double checking, so I double checked, and was horrified to find out that his father's murderer's (last) name was Niles!  Geez!  How on earth did they ever go with that name for the show? 

 

I hope he finds some happy family history, because he's pretty much got one of the most miserable family of origin histories out there. 

[andromeda331]

Yep, I'm another descendant of Edward I. I cracked up a little at that last night. "Hey! I'm Valerie Bertinelli's long-lost cousin." But I really did like her and her enthusiasm.

 

 

He's only my 23 great-uncle. How ever I am descended legitimate and illegitimate through John and Henry II in more then one branch. I find the illegitimate side more hilarious and kind of awesome that I have a several times great-grandmother who..fooled around. I do have a question was it really normal for a couple in that era to not marry until after their child was two? The lady said it was normal because weddings were expensive it seemed like if you had a baby on the way you would have to get married in those days no matter where you lived ASAP but even more so in a Catholic country.

Edited August 16, 2014 by andromeda331

[harrie]

Edward 1 is the king that conquered the Welsh, expelled the Jews, and squashed the Scots (Patrick McGoohan played him in Braveheart). An important king; not a nice one.

 

When Valerie Bertinelli got all excited about being on the Edward 1 tree, the hub and I turned to each other and said "That bastard Longshanks!"  Not in unison or anything, but close.  Valerie B. was probably so excited about the royal connection she didn't think about who he was, historically (or perhaps didn't know his deeds/reputation).

[Evanscody]

She was all about Wolfie getting a fam crest. Well now she got it.

[kassa]

The "expensive to get married" thing seemed odd to me, too.  I can understand earlier times when people might live far, far away from settlements with actual churches (heck, even in the US frontier people would have ceremonies and then make it "official" eventually when a preacher came by, or they happened to pass through someplace that had a church).  But it didn't make sense to me in the context of this story, unless there was a corruption angle they just didn't want to get into, where local priests literally might not offer the sacrament unless a "donation" was made.   

[Kromm]

{Rolling eyes at "Wolfie" as a Hollywood kid first name--meh, Valerie, meh.,,}

[millk]

Wolfie's official name is Wolfgang (William Van Halen google tells me)

[bybrandy]

And I always assumed it was musician dad and not actor mom who pushed for the name Wolfgang, after Mozart.    Although, obviously mom would have some say.  

I found the McAdams story terribly boring but have enjoyed the rest of the season.  Although, I will say I liked the other view on the loyalist side.   It was like an episode of the Genealogy roadshow where somebody was thrilled to bits to be related to Sherman and I never considered anybody thinking that was a point of pride.  Kicked off a long discussion of how history is taught in different parts of the country/world.    

My family is from a pretty remote place and pretty much all the marriages in the family come after the first kid is born.   Parish priest only made his way there once a year in theory and if that years weather was bad, well....

[vera charles]

If I remember correctly, when Wolfie was born, Eddie wanted to name him Amadeus. I guess Wolfgang is a slight improvement on that.

 

 

Kicked off a long discussion of how history is taught in different parts of the country/world.

Mr. Charles grew up in a military family and moved four times just in elementary school. He managed to learn about the Civil War in both upstate NY and southern VA. Talk about getting both sides of the story! He gets a bit irritated by how many of the subjects give that little fist pump when they find out that their ancestor was not a Confederate soldier. Somebody had to be! It is silly for these modern-day folks to think that their ancestor being on the right side is any reflection on them. Most if it was just luck of the draw, people. I happen to have ancestors on both sides, just because my family was very well entrenched in a border state. Most of choosing a side to join was probably a matter of who was recruiting at a particular time and what they were offering for joining up.

Edited August 17, 2014 by vera charles

[Blergh]

I just watched the Valarie Bertinelli episode.  I have to say, I really would question her (gg?)grandmother's claim that her husband thought he killed her, and committed suicide as a result.  So, at 5am the husband comes in to where she's sleeping - and I would presume the wife was sleeping since she was still in bed.  She claimed he tried shooting her twice and that she 'rolled to the floor in her bedclothes and played dead', and that a few minutes later she heard a shot and found her husband shot himself in the temple?  That sounds VERY sketchy to me.  How does a guy miss....twice....when someone is asleep in bed?  The episode didn't mention ANY injuries to his wife.  And, she claims to have fallen to the floor and the husband doesn't even check?  Really?

 

It would make far more sense that she had a reason/desire to be rid of her husband, shot him in the temple at 5am (awake or asleep, who knows), shot two bullets after that into their bed to cover her tracks.

 

Any other thoughts on this?

 

 

An interesting take! It may be Valerie might have uncovered an unprosecuted murder! I wonder if perhaps the law bought the great-grandmother's side due to past domestic violence calls, her husband having made threats against her life in the presence of irrefutable source/s [ e.g. police] OR if the husband had previously had a lengthy police record independent of anything to do with his wife and that is why they may have been willing to accept her acount and not prosecute . Also, interesting that just a week after her 2nd husband's violent death, she deeded over her property to her daughter and son-in-law [Valerie's beloved grandmother]. Could she have done so merely because she was so shaken by the events that she didn't think she could manage her property solo thereafter [in spite of having been the sole provider for her children during her first widowhood and even emigrating with them] OR could there have been collusion between the three re testimony and property?  Also, it's interesting that she chose to emigrate a week after Italy entered WWI. Was it just believing that a New World could provide a better, more independent life for herself and her children that motivated her or was there something local that she felt compelled to flee with her children from?

    All that said, I DO agree that she must have been a strong woman to strike out solo at a time and place when few women did so.

[millk]

Kicked off a long discussion of how history is taught in different parts of the country/world.

I live in the heart of War of 1812 land and it is interesting to hear the different battles discussed on American documentaries when I know the Canadian side.

Oh show... The United Empire Loyalist designation is along the same lines as the DAR.

Edited August 19, 2014 by millk

[AheadofStraight]

I admit to half-watching the Valerie episode while doing something else but I kept getting confused on where she was. When in PA, the expert she was talking to had an Italian accent. When she was overseas, she was talking to Americans.

[attica]

My own gf came from a family of 12 kids, and whattyaknow, one of them was as dissolute as Kelsey's gf Ellis. Maybe it's fallout from just too damn many people waiting for the bathroom!

[Linderhill]

I missed the beginning of Kelsey Grammer's episode last night but found the rest of it pretty interesting.  He certainly had some interesting forbearers.

[harrie]

I'll have to try and rewatch the Kelsey Grammer episode.  I was kind of put off by the beginning - him frolicking in the fabulous pool with one of the latest batch of kids didn't do anything for me -- and another channel had a thing on the Battle of the Crater (Civil War).  I'm not being sarcastic, I like that stuff.  But anyway, if you all say it turns out to be interesting, I will have to get over the pool thing and take a second look at Mr. Grammer's story.