S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

yes the timeline is a bit unclear (as usual on this show) but it seems like they were on the march within a week of taking 50% losses.

The timeline is really fuzzy.  All we really know is that, unless human gestation periods on Planetos are much longer than in our world, fewer than 9 months have passed since Eastwatch (episode 7:5) and probably a lot less time than that, since Cersei isn't even showing.

And I suppose that assumes Cersei isn't lying about being pregnant.  If she really is pregnant it would seem that it has probably been fewer than 4 or 5 months.   

[Detective005]

In my opinion, the problem is not the death of rhaegal, but the way he died. I mean, we waited five years to taste the power of these creatures, which were called powerful and invincible by each of Got's characters and instead two of them disappeared in 7 episodes.

[RealReality]

42 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

The monarch can legitimize anyone he/she wants - that's how Ramsay Snow became Ramsay Bolton.  Now, that doesn't mean whomever is left in control in the Stormlands has to be happy about it, but it doesn't actually require proof of ancestry.  "The Queen says so" is good enough, officially anyway.

We will have to agree to disagree about this, because I don't think what Sansa said was a lie, and I think Dany absolutely was wrong.

You know, until I read this board I hadn't even considered the possibility that Sansa was lying.   It seems logical that the men need a little time to rest after fighting an army of dead people and probably losing loved ones.  As a general proposition it makes sense that they would need time, but how much time would be at the discretion of the commanders...as it should be.  I had just thought Sansa wasn't prepared for the follow up question 

HOWEVER, after reading this board, I could see where Sansa could pull a semi cersei move and let Dany and the dothraki move forward and then slowly see which way the battle is going before really committing her men to Dany.  Or making demands before she sends the northern men to fight.

An interesting take 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

I took the episode’s title as a simple statement of fact: the Stark name dies with this generation...

• Any children Jon fathers would be raised under the name Snow if he keeps his secret, or Targaryen if he doesn’t; either way, they won’t be named Stark.
• If Sansa bears any children they’ll carry their father’s last name if borne in wedlock, or Snow if not.
• Ditto Arya - not to mention, the possibility of Arya bearing any children at all is far more remote a possibility.

...so unless (a) Bran’s paralysis doesn’t extend to ALL areas below the waist AND (b) Mr. 3ER can develop a *little* more personality than a dinner plate - enough to engage some willing (or desperate) female to the point of marriage, anyway - then the Stark name dies with this crew.

This being the last of the Starks is a huge point.  I know this show doesn't give a shit about the magic and lore unless it relates to dragons, but this seems like it should have been a bigger point in the show.  We've had 7 seasons of "the Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years!" and "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" so does this mean that no longer applies or matters because the NK and worries about the undead are over?  I'm fine if that's what it means, but they didn't say anything about why was it necessary that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" all this time.  Just to let the House die out without a word seems like bullshit.

[Constantinople]

53 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Davos knows he is Robert's bastard

Good point.  To paraphrase a certain show runner, I kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet Davos.

That said, Davos only "knows" what some dead red witch told him

Edited May 8, 2019 by Constantinople

[taanja]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Great post and to that end...I think Dany and Drogon are goners. Would not surprise me at all if all the magic in the world is basically gone at the end, pretty typical for these medieval-europe-with-elves type fantasy series. There will be no more undead, no more dragons, and no more people impervious to fire. 

Which in my opinion -- will make for a better show!

Too bad it's ending.

[Meredith Quill]

REMINDER:

This is a NO BOOK TALK topic. This mean zero discussion of the books, nil, nada, nothing. For the purposes of this topic you should pretend they don't exist or risk moderation measures. Posts have been removed.

[Andromeda]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

And she manipulated Tommen by petting his pussy. 

 

#NeverForgetSerPounce

And taught him how to pet hers.... (Oh, come on, you were all thinking it!)

[taanja]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

For many of us, the dragons and the dire wolves are just as much characters on GOT as the humans.  And many of us are not watching for the game-playing in the south, and were much more interested in the North storyline; personally the survival of all humanity ranked much higher for me than who sits on that stupid throne.  The show has different things for different viewers.

I was much more upset by Rhaegal's death than I was Missandei's because I felt like Rhaegal was a more developed character.

I had to accept long ago this is a fantasy show. The weakest parts being the fake animals and zombies. 

The human characters, however, have been marvelous-- all of them -- the good-- the bad and the ugly. IMO they are what makes this show so compelling.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

They would know he was on a list of children to be killed.  It seems doubtful Joffrey as king would have spelled out why, although again it was hardly a secret that Robert got around a lot.  Some might have guessed from that.

True, individual Gold Cloaks may or may not have known what the motivation behind their mission was.   I assume Janos Slynt probably knew, but he no longer has a head.   

Tyrion probably would have found out the identity of the children they killed or tried to kill, after Bronn took over the City Watch, and he knew the reason, so I imagine he could vouch for Gendry.   

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Good point.  To paraphrase a certain show runner, I kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet Davos.

That said, Davos only "knows" what some dead red witch told him

He also knows that Stannis believed Gendry was his nephew.

The red woman brought Jon back to life, told Arya her future, magically lit the Dothraki swords and the pit on fire, so I think her word would have a good deal of credibility.   

Overall, it seems fairly widely known that Gendry was Robert's bastard.  

Maybe he could prove it by impregnating several blond women and producing babies who are black of hair. :)

Edited May 8, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[QuinnM]

27 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Overall, it seems fairly widely known that Gendry was Robert's bastard.  

Remember that both Ned Stark and Lord Arynn met with Gendry at the smithie's.  When the gold cloaks came for him they knew he had a bull's head helmet.  Then little Arya's quick thinking saved his life.  Tywin knew a smart mind when he saw it.  So long trail of folks that were well aware of his father.

Edited May 8, 2019 by QuinnM

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He also knows that Stannis believed Gendry was his nephew.

The red woman brought Jon back to life, told Arya her future, magically lit the Dothraki swords and the pit on fire, so I think her word would have a good deal of credibility.   

Like Nebula says in Avengers: Endgame-  "My Father is many things, but a liar is not one of them." Melisandre has been wrong, but never really lied about anything....

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, Hiacios said:

Dany is illegitimate? LMAO! She is the last Targaryen period. Jon died and will die again but with no Melisandre to bring his ass back this time. 🙂

As long as Jon's still alive (like now) she's second in line, which is going to be a blow to her, having considered herself the last for so long. (Since her brother died--before that she was in the same place she's in now and she doesn't want to go back to it.)

14 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I know it's unlikely, since Arya didn't have access to her children's faces, but it would be awesome if Cersei thought she saw Tommen...and followed him. And then her daughter Mercella, and followed her... Heck, throw Joffrey in there, too. And then stabby stab stab stab.

I never thought of this before, but maybe there's some paralleling going on here with the children. Cersei lost three. Dany's now lost 2 (not counting the child she never had with Drogo).

9 hours ago, Kate47 said:

Joffery being manipulated by Margery comes to mind. Robb losing everything for the love of a woman. To a lesser extent, Cersei's ability to manipulate Robert, who should have known better. 

I can't remember her exact words but I assumed she was just talking about Robb. He wasn't manipulated, but he did an incredibly stupid thing because he fell in love and paid for it dearly. He's all the proof I would need that love could be a huge danger.

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa is a shit stirrer

In this season's premiere, she all but called Tyrion a moron for trusting his sister, and that was before Cersei's betrayal was revealed. Now she think's Tyrion's judgment is state of the art?

I think she's trusting his motivations more than his judgment. She disagreed with him that Cersei was really sending troops and was right, but that doesn't mean she thinks he's always wrong. She trusts his motives even while she thinks he was wrong in trusting Cersei.

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Well, which is it? Sansa’s responsibility to raise the subject of the troops’ condition - in which case she better be at least somewhat informed on the subject she raised?  Or Jon’s responsibility - in which case Sansa should not have been the one raising the subject in the first place?  You can’t have it both ways.

Sansa voiced a kneejerk objection when Dany stated her intention to march the troops south, but in so doing committed a rookie mistake: Sansa voiced her objection as a statement of fact, but then couldn’t respond to an easily-foreseen followup question.  Upon hearing Dany’s plan, Sansa’s more politic move would have been to frame her objection as a question asked to elicit relevant information, rather than as a statement of established information; to say to Dany, “I see the merit in your plan, but I have a significant concern about our ability to execute it” - then turn to the troop leaders and ASK, “Commanders, are your troops healthy enough to make the march to Kings Landing in a fortnight and arrive in a battle-ready state?”

See the difference?  Unfortunately for Sansa, she could not - and her firm statement followed by immediate waffling and buck-passing accomplished nothing except to weaken perception of the value of her input.

I don't see the contradiction in Sansa's question. She's raising a problem any laymen could see about troops who just had a battle, but not claiming any authority or expertise in exactly how long they should wait. 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Dany exposed Sansa's lie with her question. The others saw no need to embarrass Sansa further by harping on it.    

If any of them thought their troops were not prepared for battle they would have spoken up and said so.  

I think they'd be far far more likely to speak up if Jon or Dany had actually worked this out beforehand. There would be nothing embarrassing for Sansa in them reassuring her that this had been looked into. It's not a dumb question. (Even more obviously not dumb if Jon and Dany looked into it themselves already.) Otoh, people had very good reason to not pipe up say that they hadn't been asked or that Sansa had a point. It was pretty obvious which person in the scene people were more careful around. 

It's important, imo, that the issue so explicitly became about doing what Dany said. This idea of Sansa just being stupid with her question isn't the reaction in the scene that I remember. It's that she's challenging the plan being made. The well-being of the soldiers isn't the real concern in the reaction to Sansa's question--they're ready when the queen says they're ready. Even if Sansa, too, was using the soldiers' well-being as an excuse and just wanted to delay the battle, she's still doing it by voicing concern you can't dismiss without notice. If that's the case then Sansa might secretly not care if the soldiers are okay but Dany and Jon just announced they don't.

Edited May 8, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Nashville]

29 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

And taught him how to pet hers.... (Oh, come on, you were all thinking it!)

Yeah, but it was getting in the way of work. ;>

[Constantinople]

About the The Last of the Starks

Although the phrase was uttered when Jon, Sansa, Bran and Ayra were meeting, I think it's interesting that in the same episode we see Sansa put a Stark pin on Theon's body before it's burned.  Sometimes it makes me think of Theon as the last of the Starks. After all, he died in the Godswood in Winterfell.  What's more Starky than that?  Not that I think that was the point of the episode title.  More of a coincidence.

Sometimes when a noble family died out in England/Britain/UK, some (male) relative -- related by a mother, grandmother or some other woman -- would continue the family by chaning his  name to the noble family's name, get the titles re-granted to him, etc.

I don't know if that's possible in the Seven Kingdoms, but I recall Tywin saying something to the effect of all that matters is the family name.

[MrWhyt]

46 minutes ago, izabella said:

This being the last of the Starks is a huge point.  I know this show doesn't give a shit about the magic and lore unless it relates to dragons, but this seems like it should have been a bigger point in the show.  We've had 7 seasons of "the Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years!" and "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" so does this mean that no longer applies or matters because the NK and worries about the undead are over?  I'm fine if that's what it means, but they didn't say anything about why was it necessary that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" all this time.  Just to let the House die out without a word seems like bullshit.

who says it's necessary? Why is the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" an actual literal commandment?

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

As long as Jon's still alive (like now) she's second in line, which is going to be a blow to her, having considered herself the last for so long. (Since her brother died--before that she was in the same place she's in now and she doesn't want to go back to it.)

I never thought of this before, but maybe there's some paralleling going on here with the children. Cersei lost three. Dany's now lost 2 (not counting the child she never had with Drogo).

I can't remember her exact words but I assumed she was just talking about Robb. He wasn't manipulated, but he did an incredibly stupid thing because he fell in love and paid for it dearly. He's all the proof I would need that love could be a huge danger.

I think she's trusting his motivations more than his judgment. She disagreed with him that Cersei was really sending troops and was right, but that doesn't mean she thinks he's always wrong. She trusts his motives even while she thinks he was wrong in trusting Cersei.

I don't see the contradiction in Sansa's question. She's raising a problem any laymen could see about troops who just had a battle, but not claiming any authority or expertise in exactly how long they should wait. 

I think they'd be far far more likely to speak up if Jon or Dany had actually worked this out beforehand. There would be nothing embarrassing for Sansa in them reassuring her that this had been looked into. It's not a dumb question. (Even more obviously not dumb if Jon and Dany looked into it themselves already.) Otoh, people had very good reason to not pipe up say that they hadn't been asked or that Sansa had a point. It was pretty obvious which person in the scene people were more careful around. 

It's important, imo, that the issue so explicitly became about doing what Dany said. This idea of Sansa just being stupid with her question isn't the reaction in the scene that I remember. It's that she's challenging the plan being made. The well-being of the soldiers isn't the real concern in the reaction to Sansa's question--they're ready when the queen says they're ready. Even if Sansa, too, was using the soldiers' well-being as an excuse and just wanted to delay the battle, she's still doing it by voicing concern you can't dismiss without notice. If that's the case then Sansa might secretly not care if the soldiers are okay but Dany and Jon just announced they don't.

But, Sansa didn't ask if the troop were exhausted.  She stated as a fact that they were exhausted.  Her answer to Dany's followup question made it rather clear that she did not really know whether the men were exhausted.   

[Drogo]

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

Melisandre has been wrong, but never really lied about anything....

He really had no idea. 

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

who says it's necessary? Why is the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" an actual literal commandment?

Can Sansa adopt a local farm boy and get him renamed by the Queen / King as a Stark? Commandment compliance issue solved......

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

who says it's necessary? Why is the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" an actual literal commandment?

That's exactly my point - we don't know what it is/means.  They said it constantly for 7 years, and we have no explanation for it.  And after Sansa dies a lonely woman with no kids or family whatsoever (which I think seems to be where her future is heading....she's there already at the end of this episode, really), there will be no Stark in Winterfell.  Will that matter to anyone?  Who knows?  Maybe it was never important and meant nothing, but that is unsatisfying to me since it was said so often.

[UNOSEZ]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Sansa didn't ask if the troop were exhausted.  She stated as a fact that they were exhausted.  Her answer to Dany's followup question made it rather clear that she did not really know whether the men were exhausted.   

Why would any one think otherwise... lets say it took a day to get the bodies and dispose of the AOTD remnants after the long night... The next day is the funeral and Party... The next day is the meeting... That's 2 maybe 3 days later and she's Already talking about going on the move.. Even after everyone of the generals took half their fighters ( or more)  off the board...  whether any of her generals who will follow her commands or Jon who's desperately trying to prove his loyalty and is still working out his feelings for her.. Or Tyrion and Varys who for whatever reasons have some reservations about her are going to say anything.. Which is why nobody said " our men are ready" they all stood quiet until Dany launched into her " I sacrificed everything for you etc etc spiel " and Jon shut Sansa down.. Which prompted Arya to call a stark huddle

[MrWhyt]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

That's exactly my point - we don't know what it is/means.  They said it constantly for 7 years, and we have no explanation for it.  And after Sansa dies a lonely woman with no kids or family whatsoever (which I think seems to be where her future is heading....she's there already at the end of this episode, really), there will be no Stark in Winterfell.  Will that matter to anyone?  Who knows?  Maybe it was never important and meant nothing, but that is unsatisfying to me since it was said so often.

Winterfell is the ancestral home of the Stark family, they must always retain control of it, cause it's theirs. It doesn't have to mean any more than that. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

About the The Last of the Starks

Although the phrase was uttered when Jon, Sansa, Bran and Ayra were meeting, I think it's interesting that in the same episode we see Sansa put a Stark pin on Theon's body before it's burned.  Sometimes it makes me think of Theon as the last of the Starks. After all, he died in the Godswood in Winterfell.  What's more Starky than that?  Not that I think that was the point of the episode title.  More of a coincidence.

Sometimes when a noble family died out in England/Britain/UK, some (male) relative -- related by a mother, grandmother or some other woman -- would continue the family by chaning his  name to the noble family's name, get the titles re-granted to him, etc.

I don't know if that's possible in the Seven Kingdoms, but I recall Tywin saying something to the effect of all that matters is the family name.

I think the pin Sansa put on Theon was separate from the title.  Theon long had a conflict as to whether he was a Greyjoy or a Stark.  Jon had told him he could be both, at Dragonstone.  Sansa putting the pin on him was signifying that he died a Stark, that they considered him a brother.

There are a lot of theories about why there must always be  Stark in Winterfell.  Some believe there is some mystical component behind it, like the magic in the Wall.

I recall when Joffrey was first crowned, he was announced a Joffrey of the Houses Baratheon and Lannister, which was probably the Lannister's effort to continue the family name and connect it to the Iron Throne.

They might be able to fudge the last name on Sansa or Arya's children and call them Starks.  Jon might also be able to name a son Stark, since he is a male whose mother was a Stark.

[Nashville]

11 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

who says it's necessary? Why is the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" an actual literal commandment?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

Why would any one think otherwise... lets say it took a day to get the bodies and dispose of the AOTD remnants after the long night... The next day is the funeral and Party... The next day is the meeting... That's 2 maybe 3 days later and she's Already talking about going on the move.. Even after everyone of the generals took half their fighters ( or more)  off the board...  whether any of her generals who will follow her commands or Jon who's desperately trying to prove his loyalty and is still working out his feelings for her.. Or Tyrion and Varys who for whatever reasons have some reservations about her are going to say anything.. Which is why nobody said " our men are ready" they all stood quiet until Dany launched into her " I sacrificed everything for you etc etc spiel " and Jon shut Sansa down.. Which prompted Arya to call a stark huddle

The battle lasted maybe 8 hours.  It was horrible, but not nearly as taxing as weeks of marching and fighting.  

The Unsullied trained from dawn to dusk every day since they were little boys.  In terms of fatigue, the Battle of Winterfell was like a half day for them.

Many of the people who fought the hardest were able to drink and make love into the wee hours of the morning at the celebration.   

Sansa did seem drained from sitting around in the crypt, though.   

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

Winterfell is the ancestral home of the Stark family, they must always retain control of it, cause it's theirs. It doesn't have to mean any more than that. 

Yes, but they made it a practice to never leave it Starkless.  When Catelyn needed to tell Ned that Tyrion was responsible for the attempt on Bran's life (Oops!), Robb said he would go instead, but she told him there must always a Stark in Winterfell.

At a minimum, I think it is a superstition that the Starks have, that bad things will happen if no Starks are there.  It could be something more.   

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Why would any one think otherwise... lets say it took a day to get the bodies and dispose of the AOTD remnants after the long night...

A day to dispose of the AOTD remnants (what's that, 100K wights?) and build all of those pyres?

Can you help me with my next home improvement project?

[MrWhyt]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, but they made it a practice to never leave it Starkless.  When Catelyn needed to tell Ned that Tyrion was responsible for the attempt on Bran's life (Oops!), Robb said he would go instead, but she told him there must always a Stark in Winterfell.

At a minimum, I think it is a superstition that the Starks have, that bad things will happen if no Starks are there.  It could be something more.   

yes there must be a member of the ruling family there to oversee their territory and fulfill their responsibilities to their people.

[Nashville]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, but they made it a practice to never leave it Starkless. 

That sounds kinda dirty.  I like it.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

yes there must be a member of the ruling family there to oversee their territory and fulfill their responsibilities to their people.

That is part of it, but when Robb left, Bran and Rickon had to stay behind.  They were just boys and really couldn't do anything (especially Rickon) Master Lewin couldn't do.   

The Tyrells all left Higarden.  Robert took his whole family to KL, though I guess his baby brother was back in KL.  

There seemed to be something more imperative about it, in the minds of the Starks, than just being there 24/7/365 to rule.   

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

A day to dispose of the AOTD remnants (what's that, 100K wights?) and build all of those pyres?

Can you help me with my next home improvement project?

I hadn't thought of the wight cleanup problem, only about their own dead.  Maybe they just pulled out their own people and had Drogon torch the (twice) dead wights

Edited May 8, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I hadn't thought of the wight cleanup problem, only about their own dead.  Maybe they just pulled out there own people and had Drogon torch the (twice) dead wights

That's still a whole lot of bodies to sort through in a day (or week.)

[MrWhyt]

22 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That is part of it, but when Robb left, Bran and Rickon had to stay behind.  They were just boys and really couldn't do anything (especially Rickon) Master Lewin couldn't do.   

The Tyrells all left Higarden.  Robert took his whole family to KL, though I guess his baby brother was back in KL.  

There seemed to be something more imperative about it, in the minds of the Starks, than just being there 24/7/365 to rule.   

And any maester could have ruled instead of Lyanna Mormont, the point is that the ruling house is the ruling house. Bran and Rickon were the heirs to the Stark family, it was their responsibility to run the joint (with advisors). Perhaps the nobles of the North take their responsibilities more seriously than those of the south.

edited to add: just because there is magic in the world doesn't mean that everything is magic. Magic is rare in westeros. Not every tradition has some mystical properties attached to it.

Edited May 8, 2019 by MrWhyt

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Sansa didn't ask if the troop were exhausted.  She stated as a fact that they were exhausted.  Her answer to Dany's followup question made it rather clear that she did not really know whether the men were exhausted.   

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The battle lasted maybe 8 hours.  It was horrible, but not nearly as taxing as weeks of marching and fighting.  

The Unsullied trained from dawn to dusk every day since they were little boys.  In terms of fatigue, the Battle of Winterfell was like a half day for them.

Many of the people who fought the hardest were able to drink and make love into the wee hours of the morning at the celebration.   

Sansa did seem drained from sitting around in the crypt, though.   

Drinking and making love is the exact opposite of marching into battle again.

Sansa stating the troops were exhausted might have turned out to not be accurate, but there's nothing strange about her stating it as what she thought was an agreed upon fact. She said she didn't know how long they needed to recover, not that she was wrong and they weren't really exhausted. (All the people in the crypt would also have been exhausted--that was a very stressful situation.) 

I have never been in a battle, but I'm sure the exhaustion afterwards is about more than the cardio workout.  It's not the same as doing the same amount of hours of drilling. It's a traumatic experienced mentally, physically and emotionally even if it was only that one night you were fighting off an unstoppable hoard of zombies, some of whom were your friends who had just died beside you.

[Absurda]

Quote

I hadn't thought of the wight cleanup problem, only about their own dead.  Maybe they just pulled out there own people and had Drogon torch the (twice) dead wights

The wights all shattered into ice (or something) when the NK was killed didn't they?  Maybe they all melted?  It does make me wonder how there was a Lyanna body to burn, though.  Unless her being newly dead prevented her shattering.

Quote

The Tyrells all left Higarden.  Robert took his whole family to KL, though I guess his baby brother was back in KL.  

Yeah, and they're all dead.  Maybe the idea of leaving a Stark at home is to protect the bloodline.  Winterfell is safe so as long as a Stark is there, the Sarks can continue.

[Blakeston]

There's been discussion over who would be first in the line of succession if Dany and Jon were both female.

I'm not aware of any monarchy in which a woman who's the third child of the dead king would be ahead of a woman who's the only surviving child of the dead crown prince. 

Is there any precedent for such a thing?

[MrsR]

8 minutes ago, Absurda said:

The wights all shattered into ice (or something) when the NK was killed didn't they? 

No, wights collapse. White Walkers and the Night King shatter. Wights are dead people who are raised,

White Walkers and the Night King were living when they were transformed.

Edited May 8, 2019 by MrsR

[MrWhyt]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 It's not the same as doing the same amount of hours of drilling. It's a traumatic experienced mentally, physically and emotionally even if it was only that one night you were fighting off an unstoppable hoard of zombies, some of whom were your friends who had just died beside you.

add in however long it took to clean up and arrange the bodies and funeral pyres, that's a couple more days of labour.

[Absurda]

Quote

I'm not aware of any monarchy in which a woman who's the third child of the dead king would be ahead of a woman who's the only surviving child of the dead crown prince. 

Is there any precedent for such a thing?

Well, Lady Jane Gray was a distant cousin, I think, who was crowned ahead of the previous King's (Henry VIII) two daughters.  She was selected because they really didn't want the Catholic Mary I to rule.  Eventually Mary's forces and supporters fought to put her on the throne and behead Jane.

[izabella]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I have never been in a battle, but I'm sure the exhaustion afterwards is about more than the cardio workout.  It's not the same as doing the same amount of hours of drilling. It's a traumatic experienced mentally, physically and emotionally even if it was only that one night you were fighting off an unstoppable hoard of zombies, some of whom were your friends who had just died beside you.

There is no question in my mind everyone should have been emotionally traumatized right now, in addition to exhausted.

The rush to end the show has robbed us of a lot of scenes that would have made the ending more compelling and impactful.  I think one of the reasons I've had such a hard time with the sudden ending of the NK and the threat from the undead is we didn't get a post-battle episode with everyone being shell-shocked from what just happened.  We got a funeral, and drinking, but the enormity of what had happened and what they all went through was not apparent.  Without it, it made the Long Night seem like not a big a deal.  And that leads to questioning whether anyone was exhausted.  They are human so they should be exhausted.  And wounded.  We don't know how much time passed before the funerals and the drinking, so they may or may not still be totally fresh from half their people getting slaughtered by the undead and sorting through the mess for their own dead.

I also feel robbed that we didn't get an immediate aftermath reaction to Arya killing the NK.  It seems like killing the NK was a big deal to everyone, until right after he's killed and then, we mostly just get , "let's raise a glass."  I would have loved for even a teeny, short scene of Jon frantically running to the Godswood to find Bran after Undead Dragon falls at his feet.  I would have loved for him to rush past the dead WW's and see dead Theon, and then Arya and Bran in the clearing, with a shattered NK at Arya's feet, the NK she stuck with the pointy end of her Valyrian steel knife.  What a moment it could have been for Jon to lock eyes with Bran and with Arya!  No words would have needed to be said. 

Ugh, I'm sorry guys.  I know I'm ranting. I'm just so disappointed that all the things we have been building up to are just being skimmed over and aren't satisfying.  I feel cheated.  It wouldn't have taken a lot to make this better.

Edited May 8, 2019 by izabella

[Drogo]

The "GO! GO!" Jon-to-Arya theory was likely correct since clearly the news of Arya's Night King kill made its way throughout the castle- despite only Arya and Bran being there to witness it.  Neither of those two are too chatty these days, so it makes sense that Jon would've spread the word of her heroism after seeing her enter the Godswood and the AoTD fall immediately after. 

22 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

add in however long it took to clean up and arrange the bodies and funeral pyres, that's a couple more days of labour.

It's safe to assume the victory feast was postponed until a week or so after the battle, when all of the bodies had  been dealt with and their fallen mourned. 

[MrWhyt]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The "GO! GO!" Jon-to-Arya theory was likely correct since clearly the news of Arya's Night King kill made its way throughout the castle- despite only Arya and Bran being there to witness it.  Neither of those two are too chatty these days, so it makes sense that Jon would've spread the word of her heroism after seeing her enter the Godswood and the AoTD fall immediately after. 

or it's garbage cause it's never mentioned in the following episode or in the behind  the scenes bits. Jon could have easily been the first to arrive in the godswood (thats where he was headed before he was interrupted by a dragon) after the NK got shanked and made the logical conclusion that of the two living people there the one with working legs did the deed.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The "GO! GO!" Jon-to-Arya theory was likely correct since clearly the news of Arya's Night King kill made its way throughout the castle- despite only Arya and Bran being there to witness it.  Neither of those two are too chatty these days, so it makes sense that Jon would've spread the word of her heroism after seeing her enter the Godswood and the AoTD fall immediately after. 

It's safe to assume the victory feast was postponed until a week or so after the battle, when all of the bodies had  been dealt with and their fallen mourned. 

Jon did not have to have seen her entering the Godswood and yell to her in order for other people to know what happened to the NK by then. Bran would have been happy to tell anyone who asked what happened and so would Arya, I think. 

The Go Go theory is silly because we see everything Jon does in the moment and he does not see Arya. His eyes go straight to the dragon and never leave it. He didn't see anybody. He might not have even have been the first person to find out what happened.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

A day to dispose of the AOTD remnants (what's that, 100K wights?) and build all of those pyres?

Can you help me with my next home improvement project?

Yeah, it had to have taken a few days at least.

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Absurda said:

It does make me wonder how there was a Lyanna body to burn, though.  Unless her being newly dead prevented her shattering.

Pretty sure you're just not supposed to think about that. In reality there would be no bodies to burn as they were all resurrected into undead by the NK when Jon lucked out and wasnt summarily killed by him.

[Bali]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Drinking and making love is the exact opposite of marching into battle again.

Except for the Wildlings. I think Tormund might view them as very similar.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Absurda said:

The wights all shattered into ice (or something) when the NK was killed didn't they?  Maybe they all melted?  It does make me wonder how there was a Lyanna body to burn, though.  Unless her being newly dead prevented her shattering.

Yeah, and they're all dead.  Maybe the idea of leaving a Stark at home is to protect the bloodline.  Winterfell is safe so as long as a Stark is there, the Sarks can continue.

The wights don't shatter.  They just fall dead (again).  I think some of the more decayed ones might fall apart to varying degrees.  But they don't shatter into a thousand ice cubes, like the NK and the WWs.   

[ShellsandCheese]

4 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

yes the timeline is a bit unclear (as usual on this show) but it seems like they were on the march within a week of taking 50% losses.

Eh. It's a war. That's what war is. You don't get to take breaks. You take breaks and you lose and it's not like the Long Night lasted that long - they weren't fighting the army of the dead for days, weeks, or months. I don't know what the actual length of battle was supposed to be on the show - but I'm guessing it was a few hours tops. 

It takes about 30 days to get to Kings Landing from Winterfell; or at least it did in season one - in my opinion that's plenty of time to be ready. Also, there should be a commander or commanders of the Northern force - that's who should have been having the conversation with Dany. 

[tennisgurl]

I HAVE MORE RANDOM DISORIENTED THOUGHTS!

The whole start of the episode was great throughout, the beginning was very solemn and lovely, especially when Sansa put the Stark pin on Theon and cried. That would have meant the world to him, and as sad as I am that Theon died, at least he will be remembered as a hero and not a traitor or a broken shell. 

Nothing like a good rager after a battle! Good to know that Westeroes has invented Never Have I Ever, whats a party without it? It was just nice to see everyone smiling and happy for five seconds honestly, even knowing it wouldn't last. 

Wow, Jaimie used the "wow, it sure is hot in here..." line to get in with Brienne? God, what a dork, no wonder the only person he could get with is his sister! I am pretty convinced that Jaimie is off to defeat Cersei himself and die with her, and he gave that speech to Brienne so she wouldn't follow and be in danger as well. I refuse to buy anything else. Him going back to her would just to be too stupid to contemplate. 

I am just going to enjoy that shot of Grey Worm and Missandei on the boat holding hands, and I am just going to say, in my head, that was them sailing off to their happy ending back in Naath. 

I kind of wish people talked about each other in reference to their place of origin, it sounds kind of cool. I am Tennisgurl, of the great planes! 

I am normally Team Sansa, but her telling Tyrion about Jon is an AWFUL idea that is only going to create more problems for everyone. I think she had good intentions, and does think Jon could be a great leader (and she isnt wrong) but she really has to know this is going to be a mess, and isnt even what her brother wants. I mean, he swore them to secrecy in front of their ancestral tree! And she broke her word in like five seconds! And Tyrion has a point, she really wont give Danny a chance, despite following through on everything, and losing a chunk of her army to help them. Not trusting people because they "arent one of them" is stupid, and maybe its ok for Arya not to have many allys, but leaders DO need them, especially in the middle of a possible succession crisis and a war, and right after yet another war! You need people, and not trusting someone because they arent from the same location? Jons right, thats stupid. 

I get that both Danny and Sansa are desperate to hold onto their power, and being women in such a patriarchal society they have to grip onto that power with both hands, but they are both being built up as so distrustful and duplicitous, its getting annoying.

Telling Varys Tyrion? REALLY? I do find it hilarious that Ned "most honorable man ever" Stark, who all the movers and shakers and players in the game of thrones shook their heads at with his lack of guile and ability to play the game with any subtlety, was able to keep that huge, earth shattering secret for years, and never let on, not even to his wife, taking it to his grave, while all these self proclaimed clever clever types are blabbing that secret to anyone who will listen!

How the hell did Euron manage to get Missandei anyway? Was that a major part of the plan? I guess they have spy's somewhere to let them know that Missandei means a lot to Danny, and isnt just her secretary or something who she can easily replace without batting an eye. 

So Euron gets a dragon too, huh? I am really annoyed that after all this build up with the dragons being these huge game changers that cant be beaten for the whole shows history, two of the three of them have been taken out pretty easily. They are one of the selling points of the whole freaking show, I want dragons damn it! And I am already sick to death of Euron, he is basically becoming the new Ramsey, a cocky invincible villain who somehow always gets one over the good guys, no matter how improbable his victories are. I hope that Grey Worm feeds him to a Kraken.