S05.E19: Snow Pack

[Trini]

Quote

When Icicle (guest star Kyle Secor) returns to enact the next phase of his devious plan, Caitlin and her mother, Dr. Carla Tannhauser (guest star Susan Walters), must resolve their long-combative relationship to defeat the icy monster. After Barry makes a big decision about their family without consulting her, Iris decides to take matters into her own hands.

Jeff Cassidy directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza.

Airdate: 4/23/2019

[BeautifulFlower]

I can't believe they released a promo that has nothing to do with the pictures, title, and description.

[Lady Calypso]

So, the Caitlin family stuff didn't overtake the Iris/Ralph/Nora stuff, which was a surprise. 

That fight between Barry and Iris at the beginning was nasty. Both of them said some pretty bad stuff. Yes, Barry is completely self centered, thinks he knows best, and Iris had every right to tell him off. He IS wrong in making the decision on his own. Barry making the decision and taking it away from Iris was wrong. He couldn't let her say goodbye? No, he was thinking only of his hurt and didn't consider that Iris was involved in this as well. It's one thing to lock her in the vault; it's another to ship her off to her own time without a goodbye. His actions are completely wrong. 

But I can't say that Iris wasn't wrong herself. Not caring about Nora talking to Thawne? Making the mistake in underestimating the enemy of her husband who has proven to be manipulative and able to get out of several sticky situations over the years? Even knowing Thawne's history, Barry wasn't wrong in also calling out Iris on her emotions clouding her judgment. Plus, Nora CAN'T stay in their time forever. She doesn't belong. Barry's message wasn't wrong at all. He has a right to be pissed off at Nora.

So both said some pretty bad things and both need to apologize....mostly Barry, but Iris has a role in this fight as well. But I like that there is a fight and it feels somewhat natural. 

Plus, it did leave Iris having a great powerful moment with Thawne. I like how she got to vent her frustrations. I'm confused as to why Thawne is acting so weird, though. He obviously has some sort of plan that involves the West-Allen family. 

I like that Cecile and Ralph were there for Iris. I actually like that the message to both Barry and Iris from several members is that they need to work this out as a couple. It made it easier for the group to not choose sides. Essentially, the characters had to be separated for plot reasons, rather than choosing sides. So Joe being with Barry didn't mean he was choosing his side. 

The Caitlin stuff wasn't bad. I liked Caitlin's argument with her mother and I like that her mother had some rebuttals. But her family plot was very rushed. So, somehow, Caitlin's dad got rid of his evil counterpart through the power of love? And then he dies three minutes later? And I'm supposed to care...why? Was this the show's crappy way of getting rid of a villain and to give Caitlin more angst? Oh, I guess also to turn her mom into the new villain. I do like Susan Walters, though, so it's not a total crapshoot. 

Jesus, Nora is such a petulant child. Her own mother comes to the future to get her and Nora throws a hissy fit about how daddy doesn't love her (no, dumbass, he only gets pissed off at the ones he loves the most). Oh, and of COURSE she makes her own damn Speedforce full of rage because SHE messed up. 

As for Iris/Barry at the end, it was nice to see them talk it out. I like that this episode supported the idea that it wasn't that Barry was right over Iris or Iris was right over Barry. More that they need to work together as a couple and they need to be communicating. No communication means their family falls apart. They need each other and that's a good message to have. I am very impressed with how they got there. Both got to admit they were wrong AND both apologized. That was nice. 

Finally, Iris and Barry got to kiss! They've probably used up their kissing quota for the season! 

[SimoneS]

This was a good episode when it came to the WestAllen family story. I am glad that Iris and Barry made up and are back together. They really communicated in their final scene. It is good to see that they can recover from a tough moment as a couple. Why is Grant growing a mustache? It looks so odd under the mask.

I enjoyed the Iris/Ralph team up. Barry and Iris are the Harry and Meghan of Superhero World. Really Ralph! Ha. Then there was his being a jerk to hold the guard's appearance. 

Nora is such a dumbass. What a fool! I know this isn't the writers' intention but I am rooting for Nora to be erased from existence so Barry and Iris can get a do over. They really can do better than this version of Nora.

And where is Cisco? Why wasn't he in this episode? At least, we get him next week.

I don't understand the purpose of putting the Snow family drama and Cicada weird out of nowhere appearance into this episode, but whatever show... This is just poor storytelling. 

I can't believe that a talented actor like Kyle Secor is reduced to doing villain guest stints on a CW show.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[cambridgeguy]

You know Iris, Thawne cared about Cisco (hope you enjoyed the week off) too and he had no problem sticking a hand in his heart when it was convenient.  Thawne's goal has always been to destroy Barry Allen so if he can use his own daughter to do it that's right up his alley.

And for the last time, Nora's home is NOT 2019.  She shouldn't be there in the first place. 

[SimoneS]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

You know Iris, Thawne cared about Cisco (hope you enjoyed the week off) too and he had no problem sticking a hand in his heart when it was convenient.  Thawne's goal has always been to destroy Barry Allen so if he can use his own daughter to do it that's right up his alley.

And for the last time, Nora's home is NOT 2019.  She shouldn't be there in the first place. 

I thought about Cisco when Iris said that Thawne cared about Nora. As if that matters to that man, he considered Cisco a son, but as far as he was concerned they had been dead for centuries so he killed him without a second thought.

I also don't understand why Iris, Barry, and the whole Team are still so blasé about Nora staying in the past. She isn't just destroying with the West Allen family timeline, she is likely also having a negative impact on their timelines as well.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[quarks]

Well, I guess it's good to know that Flash remains consistent about one thing: Barry. Is. The. Worst.

That said, no, Nora, you do NOT have to go back in time to talk to your father, much less continue to work with the guy who murdered your grandmother and is warning you that this approach has a negative effect. You screwed up; your father got mad; deal.  Geesh.

[shantown]

Things that made me mad: 
- Iris not caring that Thawne was manipulating Nora. She doesn't care that he killed Barry's mom? Or that her first fiance killed himself trying to stop him?
- Magically there is a negative speed force that the Reverse Flash uses? Weird that we never heard about it in the last 5 seasons.
- The trick to the negative speed force just being "think unhappy thoughts while you run" and that is ridiculous.
- Ralph being all "This is a family matter!" to Sherlock, like... dude, you ain't family either.
- People being mad at Sherlock in general? I can't believe I'm defending him, and maybe the way he outed Nora was wrong, but NORA WAS WORKING WITH THE BAD GUY! The murderous bad guy!
- Iris just hopping in the magical hamster ball to go to the future after IN THIS VERY EPISODE throwing time travel mistakes in Barry's face.
- What is the timer supposed to be? Is Thawne supposed to die? Is his sentence up? It's been the longest 10 minute countdown ever AND IT'S APPARENTLY STILL GOING
- Snow Dad saved himself through love. Ughhhhhh. And then sacrificed himself. Ughhhhh. I literally do not care about Caitlin's family.
- Oh great, the tube actually turned white I can't wait for another story about an evil ice parent.
- Why is no one concerned about how Nora being in the past for months screwing up the future? Why is no one concerned about all the West-Allen's just hopping back and forth through time?
- How are there no weird time consequences to Nora staying in the past or Grace interacting with herself?
- Nora going evil means Barry is going to be battling yet another evil speedster.

Things I liked:
- Barry and Iris working it out in the end.
- Joe West will always be my favorite.

[quarks]

Just now, shantown said:

- Why is no one concerned about how Nora being in the past for months screwing up the future? Why is no one concerned about all the West-Allen's just hopping back and forth through time?
 

If it helps, and I know it probably doesn't, I'm concerned!

[SimoneS]

I forgot. It was really great to see Joe back investigating in the field. I would have liked him to have a heart to heart with Barry, but there was no time. 

They have got to get rid of at least two members of Team Flash. Even with Cisco not in the episode, there was barely anything for Cecile to do. They had to manufacture something for Sherloque.

[Writing Wrongs]

Man, them effects is crap.

With all the fighting going on, when exactly is Nora supposed to be conceived?

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I also don't understand why Iris, Barry, and the whole Team are still so blase about Nora staying in the past. She isn't just destroying with the West Allen family timeline, she is likely also having a negative impact on their timelines as well.

Yep.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, shantown said:

- Why is no one concerned about how Nora being in the past for months screwing up the future? Why is no one concerned about all the West-Allen's just hopping back and forth through time?

What's worse is that Nora's been around since Barry and Iris' first failed wedding, so it's been over a YEAR. 

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

With all the fighting going on, when exactly is Nora supposed to be conceived?

With any luck, the answer to that question about this version of Nora is "never."

[tennisgurl]

How old is Nora again? I honestly always forget she is supposed to be a grown ass woman, and not a petulant teenager throwing a massive, speed force fused temper tantrum. How is she still so cool with working with Thawne, knowing everything he did to her family and friends? Maybe before when she hardly knew anything about him, but now? And while I get why she is upset, she has to know how much her parents love her, her mom came to the future to come and talk to her when she was upset! She crossed the boundaries of space and time to give her a hug! 

I also hate that Nora calls Thawne Eobard. Its just...wrong. I feel like Emily Gilmore when Lorelei was making nice to Pennilyn Lot and calling her by her first name. "We do not call her Pennilyn, we call her Pennilyn Lot!" "We do not call him Eobard, we call him Eobard Thawne, if we have to mention him at all!" 

I also dont get why everyone is so pissed at Sherloque for just telling them the truth. Nothing he said was wrong, Nora was totally working with the bad guy, and they should all be aware of that. 

The Iris and Barry fight was a nasty one, they both said some things you know they regretted right away, but I love how everyone was like "you guys need to talk" and then they did. The last talk between them was really good, both of them acknowledging that they made mistakes, and promising to be more consider of the other one in the future. And we FINALLY get a WestAllen kiss! Prayer works! 

At least Caitlin's family drama is less dull than her endless line of failed romances, and her weird split personality deal. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I didn't care about the Snow Family drama. However, I do have something to say.

I kinda understood both Carla and Caitlin. I was literally like "Could y'all stop arguing and throwing cheap shots at each other and LISTEN to what the other is saying?" From Carla words, it was clear she loves her daughter and wanted to be close to her. However, she needed to listen to Caitlin and realize her cold behavior is what causes Caitlin to be distant. From Caitlin words, she wants to be close to her mom. However, she also should've seen Carla was hurt by her constantly only coming when she needs something. It's a good thing they worked it out.

However, like 5x06, this whole Icicle whatever plot was rushed. Was I suppose to care about Thomas death? He all of a sudden regained control. Ridiculous, just like the fight.

Killer Frost remains useless. She got beaten by Icicle and Cicada. Also is this grand fight Sarah was talking about? This is how Killer Frost is a threat? As I figured, Gracecada was going to beat her. Killer Frost is no match. Grace is from the future and prepared.

Nora deserves whatever happens to her. You saw how hurst Barry was over you continuing to work with Thawne. Yet, you immediately go right back to him? Also, Barry sending her back while Thawne was still around was a bad decision. Barry even admitted Thawne could be manipulating Nora. Now look what happened?

Did this even feel like a Caitlin centric ep?

[Lantern7]

Man, Barry can get mad. I think it's more jarring when it comes from him because it's rarer to see than from, say, Oliver. He rolls off the bed, he gets into Man!Pain mode. For Barry, it takes the revelation that his (future) daughter is working with the man that killed his mother and framed his dad for the murder. Yet, he comes off as a jackass. But it does provide a reason for Iris and Ralph to roadtrip to 2049. Also: Nora taps into a really suspect Speed Force. Making questionable decisions? Yep, she's Barry's kid.

So . . . basically, what saves Caitlin from getting killed by Icicle . . . was the love of her father. Okay, then. Not that the happy ending lasts, because the writers remember Cicada II (She-cada?) is the Big Bad, and she swipes this week's plot device and kills Pa Snow.

Not much else to add. Still vaguely amused that Ralph seems to specialize in impersonating guys with darker skin. And of course Sherloque is now family. Hey, maybe they can chip in with his alimony payments. 🙄

[shantown]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

What's worse is that Nora's been around since Barry and Iris' first failed wedding, so it's been over a YEAR. 

I can't believe they're not touching on ANY consequences from this, considering last time someone went back in time to change things, Flashpoint happened.

[phoenics]

Well.

That was a lot, lol.

[GHScorpiosRule]

31 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, the Caitlin family stuff didn't overtake the Iris/Ralph/Nora stuff, which was a surprise. 

That fight between Barry and Iris at the beginning was nasty. Both of them said some pretty bad stuff. Yes, Barry is completely self centered, thinks he knows best, and Iris had every right to tell him off. He IS wrong in making the decision on his own. Barry making the decision and taking it away from Iris was wrong. He couldn't let her say goodbye? No, he was thinking only of his hurt and didn't consider that Iris was involved in this as well. It's one thing to lock her in the vault; it's another to ship her off to her own time without a goodbye. His actions are completely wrong. 

But I can't say that Iris wasn't wrong herself. Not caring about Nora talking to Thawne? Making the mistake in underestimating the enemy of her husband who has proven to be manipulative and able to get out of several sticky situations over the years? Even knowing Thawne's history, Barry wasn't wrong in also calling out Iris on her emotions clouding her judgment. Plus, Nora CAN'T stay in their time forever. She doesn't belong. Barry's message wasn't wrong at all. He has a right to be pissed off at Nora.

So both said some pretty bad things and both need to apologize....mostly Barry, but Iris has a role in this fight as well. But I like that there is a fight and it feels somewhat natural. 

Plus, it did leave Iris having a great powerful moment with Thawne. I like how she got to vent her frustrations. I'm confused as to why Thawne is acting so weird, though. He obviously has some sort of plan that involves the West-Allen family. 

I like that Cecile and Ralph were there for Iris. I actually like that the message to both Barry and Iris from several members is that they need to work this out as a couple. It made it easier for the group to not choose sides. Essentially, the characters had to be separated for plot reasons, rather than choosing sides. So Joe being with Barry didn't mean he was choosing his side. 

The Caitlin stuff wasn't bad. I liked Caitlin's argument with her mother and I like that her mother had some rebuttals. But her family plot was very rushed. So, somehow, Caitlin's dad got rid of his evil counterpart through the power of love? And then he dies three minutes later? And I'm supposed to care...why? Was this the show's crappy way of getting rid of a villain and to give Caitlin more angst? Oh, I guess also to turn her mom into the new villain. I do like Susan Walters, though, so it's not a total crapshoot. 

Jesus, Nora is such a petulant child. Her own mother comes to the future to get her and Nora throws a hissy fit about how daddy doesn't love her (no, dumbass, he only gets pissed off at the ones he loves the most). Oh, and of COURSE she makes her own damn Speedforce full of rage because SHE messed up. 

As for Iris/Barry at the end, it was nice to see them talk it out. I like that this episode supported the idea that it wasn't that Barry was right over Iris or Iris was right over Barry. More that they need to work together as a couple and they need to be communicating. No communication means their family falls apart. They need each other and that's a good message to have. I am very impressed with how they got there. Both got to admit they were wrong AND both apologized. That was nice. 

Finally, Iris and Barry got to kiss! They've probably used up their kissing quota for the season! 

A TRILLION TIMES THIS.

25 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

And for the last time, Nora's home is NOT 2019.  She shouldn't be there in the first place. 

THANK YOU! I just couldn’t understand Iris’s insistence to “bring Nora home.” Her home is in the future. Is she planning on keeping her in the past until she gives birth to baby Nora?

And that was a display of tween age temper at its worst. And now we have Reverse X-S.🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[BeautifulFlower]

Someone above pretty much said what I was gonna say about the Barry and Iris plot. I'm just glad they made up and both apologize.

With that said, what was up with some of the dialogue? I swear it was like the others felt like Barry and Iris was gonna divorce over this?

Caitlin shouldn't have been at the hospital. She doesn't work for CCPD nor is she Grace's doctor.

[opus]

Quick question- - Why is Barry okay every year with a carbon copy of Eobard Thawne hanging around the team?

[thuganomics85]

Barry and Iris' opening fight was brutal, but pretty well-acted and natural, and I did like that they established both have their faults here.  While I do think Barry holds most of the blame due to not telling Iris what he was planning on doing (again, how did he think that was going to play out?), I think he had a point about Iris being way too blasé about Nora working with Eobard, and there is no doubt in my mind that her tune would have been way different had it been someone she loved that Eobard killed.  That said, I agree that it is really weird that no one is bringing up that Eobard killed Cisco, who isn't just someone both of them care for, but someone even Eobard truly seemed to like, so that makes her whole point about Eobard "caring" for Nora on some levels, a bust as well.  At least the episode ended with them both seeing each others' side, and will not work together going forward, which is good, even if it's probably going to end up all being part of Eobard's plan.

But even then, I think this episode really is doing a number on Nora as a character, and I honestly don't care what happens to her anymore.  It sucks since I do think Jessica Parker Kennedy is doing great in the role, but they've made Nora basically come off like a whiny brat, who is getting all pissy because her dad dares to be upset that she's hanging around with a known serial killer.  Yeah, yeah, she never knew her father, rough childhood and so forth, but so many people on this show (and D.C. universe) have had it worst, and they don't pull shit like this.  I'm almost hoping she becomes a full-blown villain now, but I suspect it will end with her doing the whole "seeing the error of her ways" thing.

Was bored by all the Snow Family drama.  Hopefully Icicle getting killed means Kyle Secor is open to doing a guest spot on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.  Need my Pembleton/Bayliss reunion!

No Cisco again.  I honestly wonder if Carlos Valdes is going to be making an exit soon.

Still can't believe that Ralph has somehow become one of the best things about this season.

All in all, this really is the best show to be a supervillain in, because the heroes do most of the work for you!

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, opus said:

Quick question- - Why is Barry okay every year with a carbon copy of Eobard Thawne hanging around the team?

Because it’s not Eobard Thawne. It’s a different version of Harrison Welles. The first Thawne stole Earth 1’s Harrison’s face in season one.

[phoenics]

This is the first episode where I think I've liked nearly every comment you guys have left.  I agree with it all.

I thought Iris was right in how she felt and Barry was right in how he felt.  I think they both reacted somewhat emotionally  -  though I still think Barry was the worst because he really did all that without even talking to Iris.  I felt Iris' pain on that one. But Thawne killed his mother - of course Barry is struggling to see past that and past Nora's involvement.

But still - banishing Nora like that was just ... really awful for a father to do to his daughter.

I think that the writers should have had Iris hit Barry between the eyes with "You yourself worked with Thawne!  So how is it so wrong for Nora to do that when she was just doing it to meet you and spend time with you?"

I also think Barry was 1000% right when he said that Thawne was manipulating Nora.

But - weirdly - I also think Thawne wants WA to stay together - maybe Nora does something to free him in the future - so if WA aren't together, then Nora is wiped from existence?  He's definitely up to something.

Loved Iris' line about Thawne staying away from Nora or else he wouldn't make it to his execution - that was a mama bear line right there, lol.

Thawne being all Team WestAllen was a bit weird and creepy.

And finally - I love Ralph for his "You guys are like Harry & Meghan - the Royal Couple of Superheroes!" or something like that, lol.  Given my stanning of H&M, I squealed.

Nora turned RXS was like whaaaaaaattttt?????!!!!

Edited April 24, 2019 by phoenics

[catrice2]

Can this go next year with Arrow?i am so tired of we trust someone who betrays us being the story as well as Barry battling an evil speedster....I can barely make an episode anymore

[RandomWatcher]

When Nora's eyes glowed red, did anyone else think Red Lantern?

[SimoneS]

55 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

How old is Nora again? I honestly always forget she is supposed to be a grown ass woman, and not a petulant teenager throwing a massive, speed force fused temper tantrum. How is she still so cool with working with Thawne, knowing everything he did to her family and friends? Maybe before when she hardly knew anything about him, but now? And while I get why she is upset, she has to know how much her parents love her, her mom came to the future to come and talk to her when she was upset! She crossed the boundaries of space and time to give her a hug! 

Nora has to be at least 27 years, but she is closer to 29 years. Yet she acts like she is a 14 year old. Going back to Thawne after all she knows the truth is indefensible. Worse yet, Iris' love and forgiveness means nothing to Nora, only Barry's. The writing for Nora is just so bad and you just know the showrunner and writers don't see any this or care as long as the fans are talking about it. 

9 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Hopefully Icicle getting killed means Kyle Secor is open to doing a guest spot on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.  Need my Pembleton/Bayliss reunion!

That would be fantastic! I would watch for their reunion.

[phoenics]

14 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Nora has to be at least 27 years, but she is closer to 29 years. Yet she acts like she is a 14 year old. Going back to Thawne after all she knows the truth is indefensible. Worse yet, Iris' love and forgiveness means nothing to Nora, only Barry's. The writing for Nora is just so bad and you just know the showrunner and writers don't see any this or care as long as the fans are talking about it. 

That would be fantastic! I would watch for their reunion.

I am forced to agree.

And yes - it's pretty bad that Iris' love means zilch to Nora - she cracks and goes Reverse because her father doesn't forgive her?  What a patriarchal and sexist storyline.

But - Nora going back to Thawne was just wrong - you'd think she would have gone back and talked to her mother - because now that she's changed the past - Future Iris would have been the right person to talk to but noooooo she goes to Thawne?  Yikes.

The writers should have made Nora a teenager - that's the only explanation for this out of control behavior and stunted maturity of Nora's.

The writers really don't know how to characterize subtly - everything is a sledgehammer.  They did the same mistakes with Wally, Ralph and now Nora - they literally go overboard with the exaggerated character traits - then realize they messed up - and then finally go back to fix them.

How crazy is it that I love Ralph now?

Also - can this be the end of the whole Snow Family Drama?  That part really made the episode drag for me - I kept wanting to go back to Iris/Nora/Ralph/Thawne/Barry.

20 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Can this go next year with Arrow?i am so tired of we trust someone who betrays us being the story as well as Barry battling an evil speedster....I can barely make an episode anymore

I just realized that's exactly the storyline we got.  *sighs*  These writers really did run out of ideas.  Eric Wallace has his work cut out for him.

[RedVitC]

Both good and bad things.

I didn't mind the plot with the snow family, but I felt that it would have worked better as the secondary plot and have the time travel plot be the main plot.  Though I suppose both got a decent amount of time. the ice fight was pretty cool

The promotion of this episode was all over the place

Cisco missing again?

The fight was brutal. I was both impressed by its rawness (all the awards to Grant and Candice) and very sad over some of the things that were said. I didn't really like how it played out in the episode (talk about leaving? really? ) and didn't feel enough screen time was spent on resolving all of it, but I'm so glad they did resolve it. I wouldn't have liked having that in the back of my mind all week. 

I was expecting more from the make up after how intense the fight was, but like someone mentioned I really like how both of them owned up to their mistakes.

As for the fight itself, I was with Iris on the Barry just taking Nora to the future (in general as well as without talking to her). As part of team flash I suppose I could see it, but as a father that was a terrible thing to do to your daughter. I didn't even know I felt strongly about this till I listened the flashpodcast that brought up how he was basically ruining the rest of Nora's live. To paraphrase: what he did was basically tell Nora she has to pay for the rest of her life by living with the knowledge that her father dislikes her now without ever being able to resolve the issue  As a father that is a pretty garbage thing to do to your daughter, especially when you're known for giving villains second chances or at least showing compassion.

Joe's advice earlier in the season to Barry about parenting was (something like) let her know that even if she makes mistakes you'll always love her. And in that aspect Barry's action, or rather more his demeanor throughout it all, was a spectacular fail, even if I do understand how hurt he is

But I didn't agree with Iris on the way she handled the Thawne aspect of that fight. I get that emotions were running high, but I felt she could have handled that issue with more sensitivity. 

I really take issue with the writers going the Iris doesn't understand route on this. No, no no. Iris and Joe are the only people on the show who knew Barry before his mom died, they could see firsthand the effects on him. They themselves were affected by it since it changed their live as well. There was an entire episode about how Iris wished that Barry didn't have to live with the darkness Barry's mother being killed brought. Iris was there having lunch with Barry every day for a year and doing everything in her power to make him smile again when they were kids. Obviously she can't understand what it's actually like, but if anyone in this group should get how much this affects Barry, it should be Iris. And then Joe. I'm going to have to chalk it up to the emotions of fighting, because otherwise I'll get mad

Despite that, I still would have liked Iris to remind Barry that he himself worked with Thawne after he knew Thawne killed his mother. He was going to let Thawne return to Thawne’s  time in return for being taught to timetravel to save his mother. Aka, even though they had caught him, he and the team were going to let this guy loose on the future knowing what he was capable of just so Barry could learn how to save his mom. So if anyone could understand that the need to save your parent sometimes overpowers common sense it should be him (though I guess Nora still hasn't told him that's the real reason she time traveled).

They also worked with Thawne twice after that. Not to excuse Nora, but I feel like if Iris had brought that up and the conversation went that direction instead of the whole - you would think differently if it had been your mother- direction I would have felt better about it. Or just handled a little softer

I also didn't like Thawne giving love advice to Iris, lol

I did like how cute Barry and Iris were when they made up. Barry joking and Iris saying something like, oh we're joking already? And may I echo some of the other comments: Finally a kiss!

As for the time travel consequences. I think the team isn't worried about Nora causing things to change because:

1-They're thinking about the fixed point theory (if it's not a fixed point certain things can be changed without affecting other things)

2- they actually want the timeline to change. That was pretty much the team decision when it was revealed that Barry disappeared for 25 years. The conclusion of the team was we can change that headline. In episode 12 Iris was reluctant to name her newspaper central city citizen because it was a clear lead to the article. When they heard that the newspaper had been founded 2 years earlier (2019 instead of 2021) they were like yay the timeline is changing. lol. I guess for them it is the future and not the past. 

I wonder what they're trying to do with Thawne. He seems genuine, but I also don't trust him. I wonder if they're implying with this storyline that the negative speed force changes you, and thus changed him.

Sorry this is a bit of a jumble, but my thought are jumbly tonight

Edited April 24, 2019 by RedVitC
spelling and grammar

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Still can't believe that Ralph has somehow become one of the best things about this season.

Really, the most shocking twist of the season is how likable I find Ralph these days. Go figure! The Ralph and Iris team up was actually quite fun, he used his powers well, had some good one liners, and was supportive of Iris. They are actually using the character really well, which is nice considering this show frequently struggles with its ensemble. 

[blugirlami21]

I'm actually mostly on Barry's side but I think that's mostly because the Iris side was written so poorly. Iris knows better than anyone how Barry feels about Thawne murdering his mother, so for her to say that she didn't care and/or didn't get it was bad bad writing.

Barry did do wrong by not letting Nora say goodbye but the future is where she belongs. I almost didn't understand her upset because for all intents and purposes Barry took her home.  What is the plan for Nora? Why has she not been affected by the changes she is actively making in the present? 

The flash has done time travel before with very clear established rules. Why is Nora exempt from these rules?

I honestly don't care about Nora anymore. She's been nothing but trouble from jump and she hasn't added anything to the show imo.

Don't care about Caitlin's stuff at all. Watching the flash is such a chore now. I'm praying that next season is better.

Edited April 24, 2019 by blugirlami21

[Lantern7]

58 minutes ago, RandomWatcher said:

When Nora's eyes glowed red, did anyone else think Red Lantern?

Nah. She's fueled on negativity, not rage. Also, I'd rather have Dex-Starr to start.

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Nora turned RXS was like whaaaaaaattttt?????!!!!

NXS? INXS???

22 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

Cisco missing again?

He was with Breacher . . . for some reason. I dunno if that meant Cynthia (that was Gypsy's real name, right?) or her dad. I'm thinking the latter . . . and if powers failure wasn't an issue, I would've liked to have seen that.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Lantern7

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

The fight was brutal. I was both impressed by it's rawness (all the awards to Grant and Candice) and very sad over some of the things that were said. I didn't really like how it played out in the episode (talk about leaving? really? ) and didn't feel enough screen time was spent on resolving all of it, but I'm so glad they did resolve it. I wouldn't have liked having that on the back of my mind all week. 

I was expecting more from the make up after how intense the fight was, but like someone mentioned I really like how both of them owned up to their mistakes.

As for the fight itself, I was with Iris on the Barry just taking Nora to the future (in general as well as without talking to her). As part of team flash I suppose I could see it, but as a father that was a terrible thing to do to your daughter. I didn't even know I felt strongly about this till I listened the flashpodcast that brought up how he was basically ruining the rest of Nora's live. To paraphrase: what he did was basically tell Nora she has to pay for the rest of her life by living with the knowledge that her father dislikes her now without ever being able to resolve the issue  As a father that is a pretty garbage thing to do to your daughter, especially when you're known for giving villains second chances or at least showing compassion.

Joe's advice earlier in the season to Barry about parenting was (something like) let her know that even if she makes mistakes you'll always love her. And in that aspect Barry's action, or rather more his demeanor throughout it all, was a spectacular fail, even if I do understand how hurt he is

But I didn't agree with Iris on the way she handled the Thawne aspect of that fight. I get that emotions were running high, but I felt she could have handled that issue with more sensitivity. 

I really take issue with the writers going the Iris doesn't understand route on this. No, no no. Iris and Joe are the only people on the show who knew Barry before his mom died, they could see firsthand the effects on him. They themselves were affected by it since it changed their live as well. There was an entire episode about how Iris wished that Barry didn't have to live with the darkness Barry's mother being killed brought. Iris was there having lunch with Barry every day for a year and doing everything in her power to make him smile again when they were kids. Obviously she can't understand what it's actually like, but if anyone in this group should get how much this affects Barry, it should be Iris. And then Joe. I'm going to have to chalk it up to the emotions of fighting, because otherwise I'll get mad

Despite that, I still would have liked Iris to remind Barry that he himself worked with Thawne after he knew Thawne killed his mother. He was going to let Thawne return to Thawne’s  time in return for being taught to timetravel to save his mother. Aka, even though they had caught him, he and the team were going to let this guy loose on the future knowing what he was capable of just so Barry could learn how to save his mom. So if anyone could understand that the need to save your parent sometimes overpowers common sense it should be him (though I guess Nora still hasn't told him that's the real reason she time traveled).

They also worked with Thawne twice after that. Not to excuse Nora, but I feel like if Iris had brought that up and the conversation went that direction instead of the whole - you would think differently if it had been your mother- direction I would have felt better about it. Or just handled a little softer

I also didn't like Thawne giving love advice to Iris, lol

I did like how cute Barry and Iris were when they made up. Barry joking and Iris saying something like, oh we're joking already? And may I echo some of the other comments: Finally a kiss!

As for the time travel consequences. I think the team isn't worried about Nora causing things to change because:

1-They're thinking about the fixed point theory (if it's not a fixed point certain things can be changed without affecting other things)

2- they actually want the timeline to change. That was pretty much the team decision when it was revealed that Barry disappeared for 25 years. The conclusion of the team was we can change that headline. In episode 12 Iris was reluctant to name her newspaper central city citizen because it was a clear lead to the article. When they heard that the newspaper had been founded 2 years earlier (2019 instead of 2021) they were like yay the timeline is changing. lol. I guess for them it is the future and not the past. 

I wonder what they're trying to do with Thawne. He seems genuine, but I also don't trust him. I wonder if they're implying with this storyline that the negative speed force changes you, and thus changed him.

Sorry this is a bit of a jumble, but my thought are jumbly tonight

I agree whole heartedly with this - but most ESPECIALLY the part in bold.  When you put it that way, it really does make Barry look really really mean as a father.  I get he's upset - but this makes him look awful and cruel - not to mention reveals him as a giant hypocrite, since he worked with Thawne - twice.

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

NXS? INXS???

LMAO!!!  Good one!

Edited April 24, 2019 by phoenics

[RandomWatcher]

And why does Iris think she'll never see Nora again? She gives birth to her at some point.

[KirkB]

Credit where credit is due. GG and CP really killed it in that opening argument.

I understood what Barry was saying and I mostly agreed with him, but Iris was right in that it wasn't a decision he should have made on his own. OUR daughter, Barry. Not your, OUR. That's the part he missed. Iris not caring Nora was working with Thawne is kind of weird, but I also can't forget it was Barry who let Thawne go the last time he had the chance to capture or end him.

I'm with everybody who's complaining about Nora acting like a teenager. And that if she WAS a teenager a lot of what the writers are doing would make more sense.

Thawne is obviously up to something. The man is pathologically incapable of not being up to something. But I cant tell if he's trying to escape execution/prison by using Nora to alter the timeline somehow, or if he knows it's the end and just wants to mess with Barry one last time before he dies.

Man, these writers really don't want Caitlin to be happy. Like, at all.

I like Cisco, but at this point if he just left the show I'm not sure it would be that big of a deal.

[phoenics]

So - I'm just saying - the Barry and Iris scene of them making up should have gone something like this:

Iris:  Did we just make up?

Barry:  Yes

<they stare intensely at each other and then go at it, kissing and pulling at each other's clothes until they fall onto the couch and out of view.>

Ta da!  Nora is conceived.  Or Dawn/Don since I really think Nora wipes herself out of existence.

[phoenics]

I have to say though - the Cicada storyline now feels like an inconvenient distraction from the more interesting Thawne/Nora/Iris/Barry storyline.

[Lantern7]

7 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So - I'm just saying - the Barry and Iris scene of them making up should have gone something like this:

Iris:  Did we just make up?

Barry:  Yes

<they stare intensely at each other and then go at it, kissing and pulling at each other's clothes until they fall onto the couch and out of view.>

Ta da!  Nora is conceived.  Or Dawn/Don since I really think Nora wipes herself out of existence.

"If we make a baby now, could you make sure it's a boy? Save us the headache of Nora?" "Iris, for the last time, I wasn't even trying to turn the Diggles' kid into a boy."

[RandomWatcher]

1 minute ago, Lantern7 said:

"If we make a baby now, could you make sure it's a boy? Save us the headache of Nora?" "Iris, for the last time, I wasn't even trying to turn the Diggles' kid into a boy."

Still don't get how Barry managed to do that.

[mxc90]

Too bad Nora didn't exit from the negative speed force over an active volcano.

[adora721]

Why does every member of the Snow family go to the dark side when turned into a meta? Please explain writers. In S1, the writers said getting powers only makes you more of who you already are. So, all the Snows are just innately evil???? Why??

Liked the KF vs Shecada fight, but why did KF lose when she's immune?

Liked the ice fight, but the facial expressions of each actor was cringeworthy.

Nora is a next grade idiot! Worse than Ralph was last season. I say chip her again, Iris. Nora really can't handle that kind of power.

Can't agree with Iris not caring about Thawne murdering Barry's mother; that was cold. Still thought Barry was next grade selfish to make a unilateral decision about their child. Can only imagine how disappointed Henry and Nora would be knowing their son abandoned his own child. 

Really liked the make up conversation, but it could have been even deeper. The stuff that came out in that fight, which should have emphasized more of Barry's hypocrisy and them currently working with a criminal,  was pretty awful just to be swept under the rug with a short conversation. They clearly need more therapy. Glad for the show of affection, and hope they keep it up from now on.

[Trini]

Yeah, so Barry acting wild was just to set up Nora turning evil, apparently.

Okay, I'm not sure how the show wants me to view Nora. They have Barry treat her coldly so we sympathize with her, but then she goes right back to Thawne and making foolish decisions.

There was a considerable amount of ridiculousness, but I still thought this was an engaging episode. (But I did skip all the Snow family stuff.)

I haven't read the stories, but I know the the Negative Speed Force was a thing in a recent run of The Flash comic. So I don't know how it was introduced there, but here it seemed really silly. It's accessed by ... thinking bad thoughts/negative emotions? Eh - kinda dumb even for this show. --Although, I will laugh if they fix Dark XS with the Power of Love!

Also, I can't believe we're getting Evil Nora before we get Evil Iris. Come on!

Is Eobard ... a WestAllen shipper? Anyway, he's is clearly manipulating everything and everyone. How does this turn for Nora help him? Iris thinks he cares about Nora? Uh, NO - maybe he cares about her carrying out whatever plan he has.

Barry & Iris: Again, the whole blow up was clearly there for DRAMA; but I like that they let Barry & Iris get all up in their emotions in that argument. Plus giving Grant and Candice a meaty scene to play. (More of that, please? Should have had more of that throughout the season between them.) I think both made some valid points, but both were also wrong on some points.

Loved Iris taking action to fix Barry's mistake (although Nora's actually in the time she's supposed to be in), and telling off Thawne.

A West-Allen loft scene! A kiss! How long has it been?! So glad they made up, and were able to see each other's POV and admit where they were wrong. Looks like working together as a family is going to be something that comes up later.

Sherloque - Nope. Still superfluous, still not family. The times he 'helped' in this episode just made me think it could be Barry being smart himself, instead of others giving him solutions through the comms.

Another episode with no Cisco. What is going on?? Although I did like the Iris/Ralph combo, I would have also loved an Iris/Cisco team up.

And I guess Gracada stole a thing that will be important later.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Ummm, how did Ralph and Iris get back from the Future ?  Do they sell those breach guns in 7-11s in 2049 ?

How did Cicada 2.0 even know about the cryo-atomizer ?  Or where it was ? Or that young Grace even needs it ?

And how did Cicada 2.0 fly out of that super secret facility ?  I'm pretty confident that it had a roof.

Did anyone have a counter recording every time the word 'family' was said this episode ?  I don't think I was beaten over the head enough with it.

Didn't Icicle stab Killer Frost IN THE HEART with that ice dagger ?  I know KF has healing powers (because of plot convenience), but that seemed like more than a scratch.

I'm still confused why time seems to go slower in 2049 than in 2019 ?  That countdown clock outside Thawne's cell has been under an hour for about 3 episodes now.  
Plus, Wouldn't there be more security around if Thawne was about to be executed ?  Maybe his pizza is arriving in 10 minutes.  :)

The Icicle vs. Killer Frost battle was so bad it was funny.

2 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Can this go next year with Arrow?i am so tired of we trust someone who betrays us being the story as well as Barry battling an evil speedster....I can barely make an episode anymore

Plus, as a bonus there were so many pep talks this episode.

[Brinny]

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

Credit where credit is due. GG and CP really killed it in that opening argument.

I understood what Barry was saying and I mostly agreed with him, but Iris was right in that it wasn't a decision he should have made on his own. OUR daughter, Barry. Not your, OUR. That's the part he missed. Iris not caring Nora was working with Thawne is kind of weird, but I also can't forget it was Barry who let Thawne go the last time he had the chance to capture or end him.

That opening fight was definitely killer. Without sounding sadistic, I like that they made it fairly brutal. Yeah, Barry and Iris are the Gold Standard, but they're also human and humans can be trash, even to the people they love. It's nice to have that bit of realism. 

On the complete opposite side of realism: DUDES. Icicle straight up looks like he's out of Schumacher's Batman & Robin. I'm super not here for any sort of Caitlin storyline, but man do I love me some DC cheese. So much so, that I was Icicle's side for this one. Erase Caitlin, give me permanent Killer Frost (Permafrost? Heh), and just go full on over the top campy villain family of ice monsters headed up by Mr. Snow Miser. Of course they killed off Thomas and ruined my happy, little fantasy. Maybe Mama Snow can make this happen?

Also, speaking of cheesy villains. You know what happens when Cisco goes off world? You get shitty names like Cicada 2. SMH. No guys. NO. That's awful. 

All in all, this was a better episode than last. Even if I rolled my eyes at the 88 MPH joke/shout-out. (Show, you're better than that.)

Although, any sort of residual neutral Nora feelings I may have had, have been killed off. Why did they go through all of that trouble having Nora build a relationship with Iris (even going as far as showing us that Nora's memories of her mother were WIDLY false, so she didn't even have a legitimate reason, really, if you think about it), if they were just going to have Nora throw all that "progress" and revert back to her "No, Mom! I hate you and you don't get to tell me what to do!" attitude? I'm now 100% convinced that Nora gets erased and becomes Dawn. They still get to keep their casting lottery choice of JPK (if they ever want to have her guest) and then we get a whole new character who doesn't need to be redeemed. Is it a cop out? Yeah. But what's the other solution at this point?

ETA: If they do go the Nora-to-Dawn route, I feel it's only necessary to reiterate that if that means Tornado Twins, please, for the love of everything good and holy, do not have them be named Dawn and Don. It's so stupid. And for a show who has told me that Barry Allen creates Gideon, I refuse to believe he would be that dumb.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Brinny

[Trini]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I forgot. It was really great to see Joe back investigating in the field. I would have liked him to have a heart to heart with Barry, but there was no time.

There was time. Snow Family should have been the B-plot with less screentime. As it is, it felt to me that a couple of Iris/Ralph scenes were cut.
 

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

... Yeah, yeah, she never knew her father, rough childhood and so forth, but so many people on this show (and D.C. universe) have had it worst, and they don't pull shit like this.  ...

Quote

No Cisco again.  I honestly wonder if Carlos Valdes is going to be making an exit soon.

I think if he were really leaving, they'd actually have a story for him. But it's been slim pickings.
 

3 hours ago, RedVitC said:

... I wonder what they're trying to do with Thawne. He seems genuine, but I also don't trust him. I wonder if they're implying with this storyline that the negative speed force changes you, and thus changed him.

NEVER trust Thawne. NSF changing a person is reasonable; but I think he was evil before then.
 

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

All in all, this was a better episode than last. Even if I rolled my eyes at the 88 MPH joke/shout-out. (Show, you're better than that.)

Are they, though? Not this particular writing duo.

[steelyis]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

Credit where credit is due. GG and CP really killed it in that opening argument.

I was intensely uncomfortable the whole time and loved every second. It was awesome watching two talented actors really go for it like that. I almost feel like their make up scene didn't quite calm the waves that fight made in their relationship.

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But I can't say that Iris wasn't wrong herself. Not caring about Nora talking to Thawne? Making the mistake in underestimating the enemy of her husband who has proven to be manipulative and able to get out of several sticky situations over the years? Even knowing Thawne's history, Barry wasn't wrong in also calling out Iris on her emotions clouding her judgment. Plus, Nora CAN'T stay in their time forever. She doesn't belong. Barry's message wasn't wrong at all. He has a right to be pissed off at Nora.

I think I know where Iris's head is at when it comes to Nora working with Thawne. She does care that Nora worked with Barry's mother's killer, but Iris is one of those parents who feels once they have children the parent's issues need to take a back seat. I think to Iris, Barry is selfishly putting his feelings ahead of their daughter's when they should be supporting Nora and helping set her straight as a family.

I feel for Barry, but I think he was a hundred percent more emotionally compromised than Iris was. If he really thought Nora couldn't be trusted, and that Thawne was corrupting her, why did he put her back in a future where she's one of the most powerful people in the world? If Nora turns there are very few people around capable of stopping her.

If Barry was thinking straight he would have kept Nora around long enough to figure out if she really is dangerous. Instead, he dumps her in the future and lets her be future!Iris's problem because BETRAYAL! His reaction was fueled almost entirely on man-pain.

1 hour ago, SweetTooth said:

I have a feeling red-eyed Nora is going to be even more annoying, talking about her anger. Again. Some more. Sigh.

I hope not.

I would be pleased if Nora bucks convention and acts in a way that doesn't make me wish Iris and Barry divorce and erase Nora West-Allen from existence.

I would have liked to see future!Iris; find out if she remembers the new past Nora's presence there created.

I liked the ice slide fight between Icicle and Killer Frost.

[SimoneS]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Still can't believe that Ralph has somehow become one of the best things about this season.

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

How crazy is it that I love Ralph now?

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Really, the most shocking twist of the season is how likable I find Ralph these days. Go figure! The Ralph and Iris team up was actually quite fun, he used his powers well, had some good one liners, and was supportive of Iris. They are actually using the character really well, which is nice considering this show frequently struggles with its ensemble. 

IMO, with Cisco sidelined, Ralph has been the saving grace of this season. He has brought humor and charm to what have often been clunky poorly written episodes. It is amazing how I have grown to really like a character who was once so annoying that I wanted him to drop dead. 

5 hours ago, Brinny said:

Also, speaking of cheesy villains. You know what happens when Cisco goes off world? You get shitty names like Cicada 2. SMH. No guys. NO. That's awful.

So true. Just a terrible name.

5 hours ago, Brinny said:

I'm now 100% convinced that Nora gets erased and becomes Dawn. They still get to keep their casting lottery choice of JPK (if they ever want to have her guest) and then we get a whole new character who doesn't need to be redeemed. Is it a cop out? Yeah. But what's the other solution at this point?

ETA: If they do go the Nora-to-Dawn route, I feel it's only necessary to reiterate that if that means Tornado Twins, please, for the love of everything good and holy, do not have them be named Dawn and Don. It's so stupid. And for a show who has told me that Barry Allen creates Gideon, I refuse to believe he would be that dumb.

I am with you on the twins' names. I think those ridiculous names will be changed as a result of Thawne killing Barry's mother and changing the timeline. I can see them calling the twins, Nora and Henry. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[Starry]

Iris was out of line when she said that she didn't care about Nora working with Thawne. Maybe things would have been different if she didn't spend months believing that she ruined Nora, that she was a terrible mother, that she was destined to become someone her daughter would hate. I believe that in part does explain why she's partial to Nora and has troubles letting her go. She's overcompensating. Too bad it's all for nothing since apparently Nora only cares about daddy 🙄

Barry was wrong in banishing Nora without consulting Iris and leaving her even more vulnerable to Thawne's manipulations. He himself worked with Thawne but I think the difference with Nora is that Barry had his team helping and agreeing to his plans. He didn't go behind people's backs. Nora kept lying to everyone even after gaining their trust and learning of one more evil thing Thawne did to ruin her dad's life. In part I understand why Nora has troubles cutting ties with him. He was her first mentor. At the time he was her only team mate.

The writing is still spotty but this is a layered storyline. Everyone is wrong. Everyone has a point.

Loved seeing Barry and Iris working things out like a mature couple. Finally some romance!

Carla has turned into a frosty meta? Not looking forward to another Caitlin storyline involving another parent with ice powers. Been there done that. Although that is par for the course with most things involving Caitlin.

[GHScorpiosRule]

And another thing: Nora wasn't "Banished" to the future. She was dumped back home. In her own time. Enough with the 'How could you "exile, dump, banish" Nora' blah, blah blahs. While Barry shouldn't have done it without talking to/discussing it with Iris first (what other choice was there, really? Like I posted up thread, Nora remain until she sees her baby self? Wouldn't that mess up the time Space Continuum?*), I have no problem with Barry dumping Nora's ass back HOME.

*Back to the Future reference.

Edited April 24, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[phoenics]

15 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And another thing: Nora wasn't "Banished" to the future. She was dumped back home. In her own time. Enough with the 'How could you "exile, dump, banish" Nora' blah, blah blahs. While Barry shouldn't have done it without talking to/discussing it with Iris first (what other choice was there, really? Like I posted up thread, Nora remain until she sees her baby self? Wouldn't that mess up the time Time Continuum?*), I have no problem with Barry dumping Nora's ass back HOME.

*Back to the Future reference.

Dumping her there, knowing that would be the last time she ever saw him and that essentially he's leaving her there with him presumably hating her enough to dump her there and that her father that she's idolized and looked up to may not love her anymore - that's just harsh.  Especially since she can't fix it.  She can't make up for it.  At all.  He's just done with her?

What kind of father is that?

It's not that he put her back in her time.  It's that he put her there and wouldn't even let her try to explain - he didn't listen - he just unilaterally made a choice to take her back.  She didn't get to say goodbye to her mother and he didn't even tell her that he still loved her.

This was 1 million times worse than any "I'm so disappointed in you" comments I ever got from my dad.

I can't believe I'm defending Nora - and yes that is her time - but dumping her back there under those circumstances was unspeakably cruel of Barry.  Especially given how he instantly welcomed KF into the fold with no proof of whether she'd go off half cocked and try to kill Cecile or his wife again.  Especially given how he himself has worked with Thawne.  Especially given how he's worked with other villains.

This isn't some Team Flash member - that's his daughter.  She deserved more consideration than that - even if she is stupid AF.

Nora deserved to be side eyed and Barry deserved answers.  He got neither by reacting the way that he did and honestly looks like a horrible parent.

Iris was right, come to think of it.  Barry needs to put aside his butthurt feelings about Nora/Thawne and focus on saving his family.  Even above his own feelings.  Yes, his feelings are valid - but his reaction was not.