S14.E19: Jack in the Box

[Lastcall]

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Wow, they're really mining the bottom of the barrel for this.  

First, they turn Jack into Cas-season-6, was it?  When he decided to become a "better god" by punishing the false religious leaders?  No wonder he's sympathetic towards Jack now.  Been there, done that.

Then they turn Dean into John season 1, being completely revenge-driven against the thing that killed Mary, with no sympathy or feeling for the kid he was crying over just a few eps ago.  (Yes, they're couching it as trying to save the world, but the "show," with Dean cold and furious and Sam sympathetic, says something different.) 

Further, Dean ignores Cas and bullies Sam into agreeing with him (thereby negating "leader Sam" who was willing to stand up for himself, because he obviously didn't think it was right to lock Jack away.)   And Jack turns bad within 10 minutes of being locked up, because, oh yeah, Nickifer hallucinations (like season 6 Sam) are driving him crazy.  Seriously, didn't they think to give him a cellphone and some games to keep him busy for a while?  (They could have opened the box to give him more batteries as needed, at least as long as he was in control of himself.)  Or at least a pillow and blanket?  

So what part of this mess is in any way new and/or different?  Well, it's more overtly anti-Dean than anything before (he was more sympathetic as Demon!Dean, TBH).  

That’s Dabbs biggest problem, he thinks he can do old stories better and fails every time. Better Colt kill..FAIL, better Gabriel redemption...FAIL, better Michael/Lucifer fight...EPIC EPIC FAIL. Now they are trying to cram every old story into Jack’s arc. We got Sam’s season 7 lucifer hallucinations, Cas’s New God story, Sam’s soulless story and Deans Michael in the box story from this season. If you can’t do a story better, DONT DO IT. This entire episode was wheel spinning...they had 3 less episodes this year and it was still too many for them. They could have wrapped the past 3 Mary episode stuff up in one episode but they are so creatively bankrupt they have to pad episodes until they find the next episode to rip off. It’s all just parody now.

[Myrelle]

22 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Actually I thought it was Castiel that looked foolish and misguided. I thought he looked especially stupid when he seemed to think that what Dumah was up to meant that Jack bore no responsibility for the lives he was destroying. Oh, but people were being mean to Jack and manipulating him and so nothing was his fault! Tell that to the loved ones of the people Jack killed, why don't you?

(Plus I am really tired of Castiel's bitchy, huffy self-righteousness. I'm sorry, but I have had enough of his pompous indignation and I wish he would just go away.)

I think that Jack has become a more interesting character the last couple of episodes, but the fact is that he has never had a moral center or the ability to tell right from wrong without being constantly coached as to what his next move should be. And now that he is all powerful, and willing to listen to whoever flatters him and tells him what he wants to hear, the situation calls for something more than Castiel's "helping" of Jack.

Dean's plan was actually not a bad one; I guess it was inevitable that the box wouldn't hold Jack but it was worth a try. Dean is obviously really messed up by Mary's death, but he wasn't wrong that Jack needed to be stopped

And you know, although it remains unsaid, that Dean wishes he had gone ahead with his plan to trap Michael in the box, in order to prevent any of this from happening. I would like so much for him to remind Castiel and Sam, when their inevitable criticism and second-guessing starts up, that the fate he had planned for Jack was nothing that he was not first willing to do to himself in order to save the world.

I want to marry this post.  

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

That’s Dabbs biggest problem, he thinks he can do old stories better and fails every time. Better Colt kill..FAIL, better Gabriel redemption...FAIL, better Michael/Lucifer fight...EPIC EPIC FAIL. Now they are trying to cram every old story into Jack’s arc. We got Sam’s season 7 lucifer hallucinations, Cas’s New God story, Sam’s soulless story and Deans Michael in the box story from this season. If you can’t do a story better, DONT DO IT. This entire episode was wheel spinning...they had 3 less episodes this year and it was still too many for them. They could have wrapped the past 3 Mary episode stuff up in one episode but they are so creatively bankrupt they have to pad episodes until they find the next episode to rip off. It’s all just parody now.

This one, too. 

[catrox14]

What did I just watch?

Sam is wilting flower I guess.

Cas is coming off as a hypocrite as if he's never manipulated anyone before

Dean is supposedly a big ole meanie for doing the only logical thing. 

By the by, if Sam and Cas hadn't been so shortsighted and had helped Dean with his plan to put himself with Michael in the box, none of this would have happened. I'm not blaming Sam and Cas, just pointing that out.

And Jensen was fantastic in playing Dean's barely contained aggravation and growing anger and grief.  I'm sorry but Jared is so one note now that I can't care about Sam's flinching, and guilt. There is no truth in the performance. 

Cas going off on Duma seems pretty out of left field.

That was horribly paced and terribly written.  And poor Alex Calvert.  I feel bad for him that he is stuck in such a terrible role.  He does what he can but for me Jack is just...pointless...unless all along Dabb has been setting up a Nougatnatural spinoff, which I think is what he always wanted.  And if the CW is giving up on any SPN spinoff then Dabb is gonna have to keep Jack evil, kill him or he's ruined Dean and Sam and Cas all to service a failed 3 year backdoor pilot. 

[Lastcall]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What did I just watch?

Sam is wilting flower I guess.

Cas is coming off as a hypocrite as if he's never manipulated anyone before

Dean is supposedly a big ole meanie for doing the only logical thing. 

By the by, if Sam and Cas hadn't been so shortsighted and had helped Dean with his plan to put himself with Michael in the box, none of this would have happened. I'm not blaming Sam and Cas, just pointing that out.

And Jensen was fantastic in playing Dean's barely contained aggravation and growing anger and grief.  I'm sorry but Jared is so one note now that I can't care about Sam's flinching, and guilt. There is no truth in the performance. 

Cas going off on Duma seems pretty out of left field.

That was horribly paced and terribly written.  And poor Alex Calvert.  I feel bad for him that he is stuck in such a terrible role.  He does what he can but for me Jack is just...pointless...unless all along Dabb has been setting up a Nougatnatural spinoff, which I think is what he always wanted.  And if the CW is giving up on any SPN spinoff then Dabb is gonna have to keep Jack evil, kill him or he's ruined Dean and Sam and Cas all to service a failed 3 year backdoor pilot. 

You nailed it.

[tennisgurl]

Oh sorry, I think I must have changed to the wrong channel. I was planning on watching Supernatural, not "The Jack show starring Jack".

Seriously, what the fuck was all of this? Why was everyone acting so...off? I can get Dean being pissed off, but it was like he regressed to the John levels of crazy obsession in about three seconds. Yeah, he made some good points that Jack, a super powered being with an increasing fractured mental self, needs to be dealt with, but I dont buy him so quickly turning on the kid he was calling family like two episodes ago. 

Really, no one comes off great here. Sam looks like an idiot, Cas looks like a hypocrite, Booby 2.0 looks like a jackass, and Jack looks like a sock puppet. Who are these people? What is this show? 

So basically, we get to sacrifice Dean to Jack, the current show favorite. Flipping bite me. 

And lets not forget, this is all over freaking Mary, absentee mother and awful judge of character extraordinaire who would do pretty much anything to waste her second chance to know her sons and run off to hang out with literally any other random person. So all of this drama and hair pulling and angst just rates a big "meh" from me. I mean, they had to make up scenes of her being a good mom and friend to make her big goodbye episode mean something, because they didnt have any from the actual show! For the love of Chuck!

[gonzosgirrl]

I wonder if this was the episode that finally convinced Jensen to cry uncle? Cuz that was some knee-deep bullshit right there. And Sam? It's a good thing Jack is purportedly only two years old, because no one over the age of two would believe that acting. That was seriously like The French Mistake levels of bad acting. Oy.

Edited April 19, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[juppschmitz]

Aha. The Malak box was only ever meant as a Chekhov’s Gun to be used on Jack.

It was a prop, built by Dean.

The whole Michael subplot only ever happened to facilitate the endgame of Jack

Well, now it’s painfully obvious why Dabb couldn’t bother his arse giving Dean instructions on how to play Michael.

Michael who?

Edited April 19, 2019 by juppschmitz

[gonzosgirrl]

Mostly I think that the writers have never watched an episode of the show. But then they retread old story lines so much that it seems they must (Jack's God-complex punishing the sinners seems awfully familiar). Or maybe it's just the infinite monkey theorum at work.

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And if the CW is giving up on any SPN spinoff then Dabb is gonna have to keep Jack evil, kill him or he's ruined Dean and Sam and Cas all to service a failed 3 year backdoor pilot. 

Not necessarily.  They don't have to keep Jack evil or kill him, have it be revealed that Jack didn't kill Mary, something else did and has been manipulating everything.  Duma was all gung-ho about more angels, and closed off Heaven to Castiel.  It's all connected, she even said that Naomi wasn't available.  Something's up, and Jack didn't kill Mary.  It has to do with Heaven, the desire for more angels, turning Jack and the Winchesters against each other, and getting Jack to embrace his full power.  Perhaps, The Empty is actually in charge of Heaven, and is pulling all the strings, hello big bad for season 15.

[juppschmitz]

11 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Not necessarily.  They don't have to keep Jack evil or kill him, have it be revealed that Jack didn't kill Mary, something else did and has been manipulating everything.  Duma was all gung-ho about more angels, and closed off Heaven to Castiel.  It's all connected, she even said that Naomi wasn't available.  Something's up, and Jack didn't kill Mary.  It has to do with Heaven, the desire for more angels, turning Jack and the Winchesters against each other, and getting Jack to embrace his full power.  Perhaps, The Empty is actually in charge of Heaven, and is pulling all the strings, hello big bad for season 15.

But... who cares?

[BabySpinach]

50 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

If Jack is really so clueless that literally anyone who tells him to do something is "manipulating him", then congratulations Cas, you agree that he cant be trusted to make decisions and is exactly the threat Dean says he is. 

And there it is. The world isn't obligated to accommodate Jack's "learning process" if that learning process involves innocent collateral damage. The world doesn't owe him an allotted amount of cannon fodder just so he can grow the fuck up.

His power is not what really makes him dangerous, it's his prodigious gullibility and complete lack of critical thinking and common sense. He'll buy anyone's bullshit if they flatter and coddle him. Yeah, it's totally worth the risk of letting him be! He's just too sweet and cute to oppose in any way! His loneliness in the box is way too high a price for the world's wellbeing as a whole!🙄

Insufferable little twerp. 

[starfishka]

Great, so Jack in the box was literally Jack in the box 🙄. The writers don't even pretend they are trying. I was ambivalent about Jack, can´t stand him anymore. Why is he the only character the writers care about (Lucifer/Nick is not a character, he is a/the burden)? What´s so special about him. Imo, he has no deepness or layers. And I don't understand why Sam and Cas behave like Jack is still the innocent snowflake. Maybe, later, they/we will find out it was not Jack who killed Mary but right now  ... (still, since then, he also killed a few other people).

Any chance Jack will kill Cas, Sam and himself and Dean will hit the dog in the next episode?

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

And there it is. The world isn't obligated to accommodate Jack's "learning process" if that learning process involves innocent collateral damage. The world doesn't owe him an allotted amount of cannon fodder just so he can grow the fuck up.

His power is not what really makes him dangerous, it's his prodigious gullibility and complete lack of critical thinking and common sense. He'll buy anyone's bullshit if they flatter and coddle him. Yeah, it's totally worth the risk of letting him be! He's just too sweet and cute to oppose in any way! His loneliness in the box is way too high a price for the world's wellbeing as a whole!🙄

Insufferable little twerp. 

Seriously, after the very first "accident", when he killed that security guard (?), they should have kept Jack on a tight leash and left him in the bunker until he figured out, well, everything.

(Btw, do we even have a Jack thread? It could be called "Put Jack in the Box"...)

Edited April 19, 2019 by juppschmitz

[juppschmitz]

51 minutes ago, starfishka said:

The writers don't even pretend they are trying.

And Dabb even spoiled the whole point of the episode just before with that stupid video.

In case his audience was too thick to grasp the title 🙄🙄🙄

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I am glad that Dean said they have to be on the same page and that Sam took an active role in this. I also 100% expect the blame for this to be put on Dean anyway *sigh*. I really hope that it doesn't turn into "No we tried it your way and look what happened". That is so old & I don't need Castiel piling on as well.

I would not mind as much if Sam goes, "I wish we hadn't done that" or "I was wrong to help you with your plan", although I don't think much of people who second-guess and "I told you so" after the fact. But if Sam says something like, "Now look what you've done, Dean!", I am going to kind of despise him. As has been pointed out, Sam is not someone's abused wife. If he didn't think they should try to trap Jack, he shouldn't have helped do it. If he felt in his heart that it was wrong, he should have stopped Dean somehow. Heck, he could have snuck up behind Dean and knocked him out, maybe locked Dean up in the box instead, if he really felt the plan was that big of a mistake.

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

If Jack is really so clueless that literally anyone who tells him to do something is "manipulating him", then congratulations Cas, you agree that he cant be trusted to make decisions and is exactly the threat Dean says he is. 

Yes, and Castiel can just shut up too, with his idiotic burbling about how Jack can be "rehabilitated". Sure, Jack will be fine, just so long as you tell him exactly what he wants to hear, and are extremely careful to never do anything to annoy him. And if he "accidentally" vaporizes a few people who crowd him when he is in a bad mood, so what? It's all worth it to keep Jack pacified and happy, right Castiel? 

[Bobcatkitten]

I see both sides of the issue - Jack calling out to them from the box was rough. But he is a powerful being killing people so what is the other option - have a stern talk?

I think Dean is being absolutely consistent - he was prepared to put HIMSELF in the box to stop Michael from hurting people so it shouldn't be any different for Jack. 

The crying in the woods scene was obviously well done. But the scene where Dean and Sam are talking to Jack about the "accident" to me was so much more powerful. Dean was so cold and full of fury at the same time - the way his body was so rigid and he smiled slightly. Wow. It was masterful acting. 

[PAForrest]

Wow, that was a dumpster fire.

Then again, this is what happens every time they wrench something from Dean, a storyline that was supposed to be Dean's, and say "psych!" and regurgitate it for another character. It's just a whole lot worse this time because not only did they kick Dean to the curb and steal his wallet, but they're repurposing a whole lot of past storylines because they're creatively bankrupt and not even pretending they don't care about any other character than Nougat Sue and whatever the hell Mark Pellegrino is supposed to be playing.

Yes, they are all laser focused on trying to make Dean the bad guy here. But all that does is solidly confirm my theory that it was Jensen who started the "put the dog down" ball rolling, who said to the others, "I'm outie, you can either come with me and we'll call it a *community* decision, or you can stay here and drown."

Of course, in reality everyone looked bad here, just for a variety of different reasons. And yet, Dean's motivations were still the most understandable, believable, and logical. Psych.

And Nougat Sue is a problem, always has been, always would have been - and Dean called it from the beginning.

I really needed one of those airsick bags at the beginning of the episode when everyone is waxing poetical about the blackhearted witch. I mean, seriously, like when did the guys manage to nail down Mary long enough to take that disingenuous photo of the three of them? Even in that fake photo she looked like she wanted to be literally anywhere but there. Though, quite honestly, they all did.

Thank Chuck there's only one episode left this year.

Edited April 19, 2019 by PAForrest

[trudysmom]

6 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Not necessarily.  They don't have to keep Jack evil or kill him, have it be revealed that Jack didn't kill Mary, something else did and has been manipulating everything.  Duma was all gung-ho about more angels, and closed off Heaven to Castiel.  It's all connected, she even said that Naomi wasn't available.  Something's up, and Jack didn't kill Mary.  It has to do with Heaven, the desire for more angels, turning Jack and the Winchesters against each other, and getting Jack to embrace his full power.  Perhaps, The Empty is actually in charge of Heaven, and is pulling all the strings, hello big bad for season 15.

Jediknight I so admire your positivity, you and SueB give me hope.  If only you were a writer for the show I'd have more reason to feel optimistic. Sadly, I don't think these writers can, or even want to, write an interesting, compelling story any more.  It seems that everyone  except Jensen is phoning it in.  And that makes me mad, sad and ultimately glad that it's almost over.  

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

the scene where Dean and Sam are talking to Jack about the "accident" to me was so much more powerful. Dean was so cold and full of fury at the same time - the way his body was so rigid and he smiled slightly. Wow. It was masterful acting. 

Yes, it was.  Reminded me of his controlled, calm but lethal Michael.  

9 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I really needed one of those airsick bags at the beginning of the episode when everyone is waxing poetical about the blackhearted witch.

Me too.  I knew the episode was doomed from the opening seconds.  I think I  yelled "Enough!" at the tv.  Not even Dean's eulogy for MotherMary could save this idiotic mess.

[Pondlass1]

Who were the hunters at the wake?  Were they the leftover paint by numbers AU hunters - or hunters that have been around since the early days when hunters were  dark and complex and lived in the shadows.  And... what if someone wanted a glass of wine rather than beer? I don't like beer. Does that mean I can't be a hunter? 

And I was smiling out loud at the b&w portfolio photo of actress Samantha Smith in the frame that was being bandied about along with the beer and tears.  What a joke!

I do admit I was uncomfortable too when Jack called out to them from the box.  But that's what TV is about.  Making us feel unsettled sometimes.  It can't be good times all the time. And knowing Dean he would've put all energy into somehow 'curing' Jack so he could be released.  

Jack being a mixture of unstable dangerous and naivety could be an entertaining story line and I prefer Alex in this kind of role. But I don't want it to be the focus for season 15. I hope it's wrapped up next week.  And that goes for heaven and angels and the empty too.  

And I agree with Gonzosgirrl that this episode might have been the wake up call for Jensen.  It's so obvious (to me, anyway) the series is treading water and hardly staying afloat.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Pondlass1

[OrigamiNightmare]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wonder if this was the episode that finally convinced Jensen to cry uncle? Cuz that was some knee-deep bullshit right there. And Sam? It's a good thing Jack is purportedly only two years old, because no one over the age of two would believe that acting. That was seriously like The French Mistake levels of bad acting. Oy.

And did the show forget that these guys lie for a living (or at least they used to). I get that they were trying to show how conflicted and angry they were, but yeah, it was not good.

[SueB]

Picked up on a few more items when rewatching:

- The blond church lady was either played by the poor person at the end of S9 OR poor person has come up in the world.  

- I think "Mercy" and "Manipulation" were the themes for last night's episode.  Rewatching end of S9 today, I was reminded about how Cas showed Metatron mercy.  And boy did we ALL want Metatron dead.  Now Metatron was 'contained' and they didn't kill Jack.  But I suspect that the Malak box - while 100% prudent - was not remotely a merciful solution.  But I don't think a Heavenly jail cell would contain Jack either.  More importantly is the mental state of our three heroes.  I don't think Dean is ready to consider mercy at this time. I know he'll get there but right now the urgency of biblical smiting was enough to justify a rush to containment*.  Cas went to mercy immediately.  Sam is leaning towards it.  Ultimately I think they need to come up with a merciful solution. This is what is good for both Jack AND their souls.  It's the right thing to do. 
Manipulation is what both Duma, the boys, and Jack's inner Hellucination were doing (i.e. Lucifer).  Only Cas was readu to play it straight with Jack. But motivation matters.  Duma was pulling a power grab (hence the subplot of Naomi in jail) while wrapping herself in the flag of 'saving the world'.  The boys were trying to contain a deadly toddler and severely outmatched powerwise.  If they had another humane solution, I am confident they would have gone their first.  Hellucination Lucifer wants Jack to go Dark Side.  Ultimately they are going to have to be able to have a conversation with Jack where he is not going to either atomize them or fly off to Peru.  Obviously that conversation is tougher if Jack feels he was tricked (which he was). 

*I'm a 100% fine with Dean feeling the urgency but a part of me feels he's not yet clear-headed.  With good reason.  They might have still ended up tricking him into the box but one of them would have talked to Jack AFTER he was secured to say how they are looking for options rather than both leaving the room (for example). 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

And did the show forget that these guys lie for a living (or at least they used to). I get that they were trying to show how conflicted and angry they were, but yeah, it was not good.

They forget whatever isn't convenient for their cockamamie story. In fact, it was this same duo who wrote this, this fucking season:

Quote

Jack: Cas, Michael has to be stopped.

Castiel: I know, and he will be, after Dean is --
Jack: No, Dean doesn't matter. You're all so focused on trying to save Dean. And I get it, I understand, but if he can't be saved, if it comes down to him or Michael... Michael has to be stopped. Caged or killed --
Castiel: And if that means that Dean dies, too?

Jack: Then Dean dies. I know this Michael. I've seen what he's done to an entire world, and so have you. If stopping that from happening here means that Dean has to die, then... Do you think he'd want it any other way?

So before Jack reverted to a two-year old Nougat Baby, he quite maturely knew that the good of the one shouldn't outweigh the good of the many. I guess that only applies if you're Dean Winchester.

They've seen what Jack can and will do, and that's only a fraction of his ridiculous, God-level powers.

I'm betting he wouldn't have had any issue lying to, or tricking Dean/Michael into the cage, whether it killed Dean or not.

Edited April 19, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[BabySpinach]

Let us also observe that after Jack had toasted Mary to a crisp, his #1 priority in 14.18 was to "fix it" so that Sam, Dean, and Cas would welcome him back into their circle again. That was his main goal, and also the reason that Hallucifer managed to dig his claws in so quickly and easily. It was all about Jack's place among his "dads" being put in peril. To him, she could have been anybody who was sufficiently innocent and helpless enough. 

His "apology" was so dire it was almost cringey. He called her murder an accident. He didn't talk about Mary as a person, just as an inconvenient obstacle to things returning to how they used to be. What he personally wanted was all that mattered.

I LOVED Dean's cold, seething rage. He practically radiated it, and I don't blame him in the slightest. I would have cheered if he'd leapt at Jack and tried to rip him apart then and there.

To those excusing Jack's abhorrent lack of tact by referencing his soullessness, that also negates any reason to feel sorry for him. Either Jack is a blank slate without a soul and therefore incapable of feeling emotions or getting them hurt, or he's a wounded baby bird who can indulge in self pity yet mysteriously cannot muster up a single drop of sincerity over the murder he committed.

The writers just pick and choose whatever woobifies Jack the most. They only allow him to feel emotions when they're self-centered and angsty. When it's not about him, he turns into the Nougatron 9000.

[FlickChick]

OK, I'm coming here to post my primary thought before reading anything, so please forgive me if you or many have already said this. JFC, did they throw Dean under a double-decker bus!!! First, he comes up with the plan to deceive Jack and convince him to go into the box "for a little while" while he and Sam supposedly are finding a way to get his soul back. Then Dean convinces Sam to do the deed of lying outright to Jack because Jack will believe Sam and not refuse to get in the box. Then on top of that, Dean stands along the outside of the box with his hand literally on the lid, smiling a phony smile and encouraging Jack to get in. My God, it's a good thing that Dean doesn't wear a mustache, or he would have been twirling it. Talk about the villain of the hour. The Nougat girls are going to want Dean's head on a plate or better yet, too bad that Jack broke the box (which I knew he could), because they'd want Dean put in it and throw it in the ocean like he was going to do with Michael in his head. Oy!! OK, now that I have this off my chest, I'm going back to read everyone's comments. Chuck help us all. Oh, and fuck Buck-lemming!!!!

Edited April 19, 2019 by FlickChick
One last FU!

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

OK, I'm coming here to post my primary thought before reading anything, so please forgive me if you or many have already said this. JFC, did they throw Dean under a double-decker bus!!! First, he comes up with the plan to deceive Jack and convince him to go into the box "for a little while" while he and Sam supposedly are finding a way to get his soul back. Then Dean convinces Sam to do the deed of lying outright to Jack because Jack will believe Sam and not refuse to get in the box. Then on top of that, Dean stands along the outside of the box with his hand literally on the lid, smiling a phony smile and encouraging Jack to get in. My God, it's a good thing that Dean doesn't wear a mustache, or he would have been twirling it. Talk about the villain of the hour. The Nougat girls are going to want Dean's head on a plate or better yet, too bad that Jack broke the box (which I knew he could), because they'd want Dean put in it and throw it in the ocean like he was going to do with Michael in his head. Oy!! OK, now that I have this off my chest, I'm going back to read everyone's comments. Chuck help us all. Oh, and fuck Buck-lemming!!!!

Meh. Jack is a weapon of mass destruction with no moral compass who can do anything and cannot even control himself. His justification for why he killed Mary was chilling.

Yes he lost his soul trying to help however he should have listened to Cas when he kept saying NO! He should have isolated himself when he killed the girl. It was lucky he could resurrect her. Jack needs to be in the box. Cas is a zombie brain about Jack.

Dean was willing to go in the box himself and he was willing to exile himself to outer space. It is not like he has not considered worse for himself under similar circumstances. 

As to whether vengeance is a part of it... we will never know because soulless Sam never tried to kill Mary. I think if Sam had tried and succeeded... the Wincest family group might have hated him too. 

Bottom line is that Jack is too powerful and he cannot be controlled at all. He has no sense of right and wrong and he was doing horrific things in the name of good and his casual description of why his murder of Mary was not his fault was chilling. How the Winchesters were able to function in that conversation is beyond me. Sam was absolutely mute. Dean went emotionless, cold, rigid... holding it all in.

OMG. 

Dean just lost his mother. The first arc of the season dealt with Dean losing the only son he will ever have. Family is everything to Dean. What is wrong with those fans that they cannot see the emotional tollbooth sides of this equation might have on Dean. 

Jack is not human anymore and he is insane. So is Dumah. Those two got on like a house afire. Cas is so out of his element.

Dean's interrogation and Jack's answers... I just do not know if there is coming back from that. Unremorseful killing of a major character and a Winchester... Mary Winchester... because she was inconvenient and a nuisance.  Dean may find it impossible to kill something he loves and I  have speculated what else could pan out.

I cannot believe Jack can weather this. Cas he killed Dean's mommy without remorse for no reason. Whatever is wearing Lucifer's face and speaking to Jack is correct about that. There is no coming back from that. His explanation just dug a much bigger hole.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[ZennyKenny]

Okay so a couple of additional thoughts:

- I thought that Castiel was on team "re-populate Heaven with angels". I mean he's shown his concern with the state of Heaven for some time now. So other than her being power-hungry, what exactly was his problem with Duma? (I had to look her up on the wiki; she's been around since season 13??? I honestly thought this was her first appearance. Just goes to show how interchangeable the extras are on this show.) I mean yeah sure Jack was being manipulated but he was a) happy, b) safe from the Winchesters, which is what Castiel appeared to want, and c) being productive making angels, which was Heaven's main problem anyway, right?

- IMO Dean did absolutely nothing wrong. In fact if I were Dean, right at the beginning of next episode I'd be like "what the hell Jack?! You AGREED to go in the box! You went willingly, of your own free will!" Yeah yeah "manipulation" and all that. But really other than the "we're working on a spell" part, they weren't lying about their reasons for putting Jack in the box. And they WERE discussing what to do about it afterwards.

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh sorry, I think I must have changed to the wrong channel. I was planning on watching Supernatural, not "The Jack show starring Jack".

Seriously, what the fuck was all of this? Why was everyone acting so...off? I can get Dean being pissed off, but it was like he regressed to the John levels of crazy obsession in about three seconds. Yeah, he made some good points that Jack, a super powered being with an increasing fractured mental self, needs to be dealt with, but I dont buy him so quickly turning on the kid he was calling family like two episodes ago. 

Really, no one comes off great here. Sam looks like an idiot, Cas looks like a hypocrite, Booby 2.0 looks like a jackass, and Jack looks like a sock puppet. Who are these people? What is this show? 

So basically, we get to sacrifice Dean to Jack, the current show favorite. Flipping bite me. 

And lets not forget, this is all over freaking Mary, absentee mother and awful judge of character extraordinaire who would do pretty much anything to waste her second chance to know her sons and run off to hang out with literally any other random person. So all of this drama and hair pulling and angst just rates a big "meh" from me. I mean, they had to make up scenes of her being a good mom and friend to make her big goodbye episode mean something, because they didnt have any from the actual show! For the love of Chuck!

The character of Dean feels differently about his mommy than most fans do. He lost her at 4 tragically and with her life as he knew it. He spent season 12 worrying that he would lose her again and then in the finale lost her to an Apocalypse world with Lucifer which triggered the worst sort of angst because of seasons 4-5. Then he spent season 13 losing it because he had lost Mary and was desperate to save her.

So yes. Dean is very messed up now.

[FlickChick]

2 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

- IMO Dean did absolutely nothing wrong. In fact if I were Dean, right at the beginning of next episode I'd be like "what the hell Jack?! You AGREED to go in the box! You went willingly, of your own free will!" Yeah yeah "manipulation" and all that. But really other than the "we're working on a spell" part, they weren't lying about their reasons for putting Jack in the box. And they WERE discussing what to do about it afterwards.

I agree that Dean did nothing wrong. I also know that Dean and Sam would try to come up with another solution if possible. I further know that when Dean had Michael caged in his mind, he was willing to go into that box so that Michael couldn't escape and burn down the universe. So, obviously it was the only sane thing to do at this juncture. However, the way it was written with Dean seething anger and revenge for his mother's death, I felt the writers were trying really hard to make Dean the villain and that THE WRITERS felt that Dean was wrong to do/say what he did to Sam, poor Jack and Cas and drove that home as hard as they could.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

I agree that Dean did nothing wrong. I also know that Dean and Sam would try to come up with another solution if possible. I further know that when Dean had Michael caged in his mind, he was willing to go into that box so that Michael couldn't escape and burn down the universe. So, obviously it was the only sane thing to do at this juncture. However, the way it was written with Dean seething anger and revenge for his mother's death, I felt the writers were trying really hard to make Dean the villain and that THE WRITERS felt that Dean was wrong to do/say what he did to Sam, poor Jack and Cas and drove that home as hard as they could.

Meh. Sam is being a woobie. Cas is being stupid. His argument actually supports locking Jack up. Literally anyone can easily manipulate h into performing horrors. If Cas had witnessed Jack's explanation of his inconsequential accident... he would be speechless. 

They love him however he cannot continue like this. He cannot continue superpowered. He cannot continue after that confession. 

He is unraveling on his own I suspect because he is not whole and unstable. If they fix him it is not to keep him around. They can't. He just said the most unimaginably awful things about how he killed their mother. He's gone. It does not matter that he was their beloved son.

They will milk it for angst.

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

And you know they're aware of it, too, because they made a point of Duma specifying that Jack's not God. 

A nephilim is stronger than the angel that created it so Jack is stronger than an archangel. The box was made to hold an archangel. Lucifer was shown to get a power boost with anger a trait Jack inherited; his hallucination reminded him of this by angering him.

[PAForrest]

42 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

- I thought that Castiel was on team "re-populate Heaven with angels". I mean he's shown his concern with the state of Heaven for some time now. So other than her being power-hungry, what exactly was his problem with Duma? (I had to look her up on the wiki; she's been around since season 13??? I honestly thought this was her first appearance. Just goes to show how interchangeable the extras are on this show.) I mean yeah sure Jack was being manipulated but he was a) happy, b) safe from the Winchesters, which is what Castiel appeared to want, and c) being productive making angels, which was Heaven's main problem anyway, right?

Yes, thank you, I thought Cas was rather quick on the draw to off one of Heaven's last remaining angels. And quite the flaming hypocrite about it considering he's there defending the murderous toddler to Duma, explaining that he feels Jack can be rehabilitated and all that yada. Yet apparently second, third, fourth, and sundry chances only extend to the murderous toddler and no one else, even someone as vital to Heaven's ability to remain intact as one of the last remaining angels.

None of this made any sense. Par for the course, I know, but annoying nonetheless.

I assume Amanda Tapping was unavailable?

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, SueB said:

FIrst thoughts:

THAT WAS SO UNCOMFORTABLE! 

Talk about a divisive episode!  Since I love them all, I'm having a hard time condemning anyone for their actions.  But it's just so hard to see them all be right (to some extent) and yet all be so unhappy with what is happening!  I take some comfort in the knowledge that we are SUPPOSED to be unhappy/uncomfortable/unsettled.  There is not a simple, good solution if you like all the characters.  Now if you hate X or Y, then it's easier to say a particular outcome should happen.  But I think they did a good job of making me feel conflicted.  

Having said all this...

I can totally see WHY they put him in the box.  I can totally see WHY it was damaging to their own mental well-being to do so.   

Dean - his speech at the wake was perfect -- until you realized that he's just going through the motions.  How is he even breathing at this point?????  And the scene in the woods was good but insufficiently cathartic.  He's still so ANGRY.  And rightly so.  I'm not remotely judging him for his anger.  That anger is earned!  But I feel like he's hanging on by a thread.  It feels like at each step he's trying to do the right thing but in the meantime there's this defeaning howl going on inside him.  It feels like everything he's saying is carefully controlled because if he opened his mouth uninhibited, he'd never stop screaming.  I'm just in agony for this guy. And then there was the confrontation w/ Jack.  "Accident".  I nearly stopped breathing when Dean repeated the word.  And the look on his face as he 'smiled' while Jack was going into the box?  While Dean was clearly terrified of Jack letting loose, the look on his face was f*cking SCARY.  Jensen Ackles is so very gifted. Dean is NOT okay.  Not remotely.  I don't know how to GET him okay.  And I think Sam knows it. I think Sam wasn't sure at the beginning but he sees it now.

Sam- it hurt just to watch him.  He was so openly grieving and 'not okay.' Where Jensen brought the pain via anger, Jared brought the pain via sorrow. I do think Sam is coping better about Mary but I felt like Sam was damaging his own soul as he talked Jack into the box.  This is like torture porn but it's with feels instead of saws.  I was glad he voiced he didn't know if he could live with Jack in the box.  So on the one hand, I think he too is at a loss on what to do and could rationalize what they did, on the other hand, I think his instinct that this was fundamentally not a long-term viable solution is spot on.

Cas - Bless him for protecting Mary & John's heaven.  It seems like every freakin' time an angel gets put in charge, their petty power trip goes to their head.  In this case it's Duma who started to settle grievances. But Cas is just so determined to save Jack.  And when everyone else is looking at him like he (Cas) has lost his mind, Cas just won't give up.  I admire that.  I admire that as much as he loves the brothers, he called them out on manipulatiing Jack.  Because that's the part that blows -- that Jack went into the box trusting Sam and Dean were telling him the truth.  Again, I don't blame them for lyiing.  Mary didn't lie.  Mary was atomized.  But I can simultaneously accept why the boys had to lie and yet whole heartily agree that manipulating Jack was inherently a bad thing.  

Jack - Jack is a f*cking mess.  Alex does a great job of showing him 'fake' sincerity and yet also be sincere.  Duma knew JUST how to manipulate him.  And Jack was so eager to please the Winchesters.  That wasn't false.  He wanted them to make it all better and go back to when he felt like family.  And yet as Jack talked to them about "the accident", it range so HOLLOW.  I honestly didn't know who scared me more tonight - Jack or Dean.  Obviously Jack has all the power, but that's not the part that scared me.  What scared me was the carefully controlled mask that they were wearing and how well the actors showed us the 'mask' versus a ton of other thoughts/feelings under the mask.  Jack is also not okay.  And yet it's a completely different 'not okay' than Dean's 'not okay'. 

Yes, I find myself highly conflicted. 

Simpler thoughts:
- Did Jack really make angels out of people?  Is that going to last?  
- Is Naomi really in a cell? 
- With Duma dead, who is #292304980987413 on the list to be "in charge of Heaven" now??? 

I watched this episode twice already. I want next week to come right away so I don't have to sit with this 'not okay' place that TFW is in right now. 
 

So not okay. 

There's no going back.

[BabySpinach]

http://marilynmay.tumblr.com/post/184298702251

I am in love with this expression. Such vivid hate and contempt. He almost doesn't look like Dean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

http://marilynmay.tumblr.com/post/184298702251

I am in love with this expression. Such vivid hate and contempt. He almost doesn't look like Dean. 

At cons, and in pretty much every situation we've seen him in, Jensen seems the epitome of an easy going, endlessly patient guy. But I swear I would not want ^^^ that guy mad at me.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At cons, and in pretty much every situation we've seen him in, Jensen seems the epitome of an easy going, endlessly patient guy. But I swear I would not want ^^^ that guy mad at me.

I LOVE! this Dean.

He's So. Real. to me. 

[DeeDee79]

23 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

One small ( miniscule ) comfort is that the fans on Tumblr are truly disgusted on Dean's behalf. Then again I follow a lot of Dean friendly blogs ( hi @BabySpinach! ) so my data may be skewed.

Adding to my previous comment to post an extremely accurate statement from a Dean fan via Tumblr:

"I mean Dean was tortured for thirty years in hell until he broke and Sam was devil’s plaything for decades in cage. But sure, tell me how much I should care about snowflake Jack and his “omg I am being buried alive” crisis."

Facts.

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I agree that Dean did nothing wrong. I also know that Dean and Sam would try to come up with another solution if possible. I further know that when Dean had Michael caged in his mind, he was willing to go into that box so that Michael couldn't escape and burn down the universe. So, obviously it was the only sane thing to do at this juncture. However, the way it was written with Dean seething anger and revenge for his mother's death, I felt the writers were trying really hard to make Dean the villain and that THE WRITERS felt that Dean was wrong to do/say what he did to Sam, poor Jack and Cas and drove that home as hard as they could.

Of course they did, they always do this to Dean and now they've just finally stopped trying to hide it. Dean does something right they consistently do everything they can to frame it as wrong.  Dean's freaking Cassandra.  He says "it's gonna be bad", no one believes him.  They treat him like he's bad/wrong and then the thing happens and he's still bad/wrong for actually trying to do something about it.  Because he's not being "nice enough" about it.  Their idea of nice isn't nice at all, it's cruel and selfish.

I can't see that Jack deserves mercy.  I don't think they were wrong to get him into that box in whatever they could manage to do it.  Even if it didn't work they had to try something to contain him.  You know what Inigo Montoya got to kill the 6 fingered man who killed his father(no mercy shown), no one had a problem with that.  I don't see why it's so wrong of Dean to kill the soulless amoral being who killed his mother(and others).  If anything Jack's worse, Jack acts like it's all so innocent and accidental when it's just his moral apathy speaking.

The most mercy he deserves is a quick death now that he's escaped the box which could potentially have allowed them to find a solution somewhere down the line.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Yes, thank you, I thought Cas was rather quick on the draw to off one of Heaven's last remaining angels. And quite the flaming hypocrite about it considering he's there defending the murderous toddler to Duma, explaining that he feels Jack can be rehabilitated and all that yada. Yet apparently second, third, fourth, and sundry chances only extend to the murderous toddler and no one else, even someone as vital to Heaven's ability to remain intact as one of the last remaining angels.

None of this made any sense. Par for the course, I know, but annoying nonetheless.

I assume Amanda Tapping was unavailable?

Amanda Tapping is a veteran actress and director with good taste, maybe she read the script and was like "I think I'll sit this particular mess out"

[ZennyKenny]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

A nephilim is stronger than the angel that created it so Jack is stronger than an archangel. The box was made to hold an archangel. Lucifer was shown to get a power boost with anger a trait Jack inherited; his hallucination reminded him of this by angering him.

Are they? Oh, I didn't realize that. I thought nephilim was like halfway between human and angel, power-wise. I guess that makes sense then.

[Casseiopeia]

I finally watched the episode.  How freaking awesome was Jensen!  Holy Crap!  Anyone who thinks these guys are just going to phone it in needs to watch this scene.  Dean scared me to death.  I was seriously uncomfortable.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I finally watched the episode.  How freaking awesome was Jensen!  Holy Crap!  Anyone who thinks these guys are just going to phone it in needs to watch this scene.  Dean scared me to death.  I was seriously uncomfortable.

That was HunterDeanExtraordinaire hunting one of his own for killing one of his own-which is something that I don't think we've ever seen on this show or from Jensen and yes, it was most certainly uncomfortable to watch, but also kind of thrilling to me as a big fan of that particular flavor of the character, not to mention the actor who portrays him.

Like I said, the Ackting was stellar in this episode.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I finally watched the episode.  How freaking awesome was Jensen!  Holy Crap!  Anyone who thinks these guys are just going to phone it in needs to watch this scene.  Dean scared me to death.  I was seriously uncomfortable.

Yes, Jensen can bring a level of menace to Dean that I would never want to see pointed at me.  If I was a monster, I’d steer clear of both Winchesters just on principle but kill one of their own?  You can’t run far enough.  

I’m also reminded of what Julian Richings (OG Death) said regard the Death/Dean pizza scene.  Dean’s reaction really amps up our view of Death. In similar fashion, Sam’s tension during this scene also ratchets up the threat.  When Jack horrifically tries to explain the accident, Sam slightly turns toward his brother.  Not for support but to see if he’s going to leap directly for Jack’s throat.  Jack cluelessly is so deaf to what he is saying.  And Sam knows how Dean is reacting because Sam feels the same wrongness of what Jack is saying.  In this moment, it’s like Sam (and the audience) is terrified Dean won’t be able to stomach the charade.  It’s ‘Godzilla vs Mothra’ with Sam standing in between.  And it’s debatable who is more dangerous at that moment. Ridiculous power imbalance aside, I’d still put cash on Dean.  Jack has the power but Dean feels like the apex predator.  And Sam has gone ‘still.’  Smart move Sam.

So why Jensen is conducting a Master’s class in controlled rage, Jared is holding his own with showing how hair-trigger the situation is.  And when Dean nods at Sam to ‘finish him off’ with a sincere statement in order to get Jack to lie down — he pulls off conflicted faux sincerity perfectly.*

And Alex is also great in the way he swings Jack from rehearsed ‘sincerity’ to guilelessly sealing his own fate with his unguarded talking about Mary.  

*Note: I don’t think Sam is afraid OF Dean.  He’s afraid FOR Dean.   And he’s also terrified Jack may revolt.   Jared played that very well IMO.  

Edited April 20, 2019 by SueB

[sarthaz]

My God, that man can act. Ready for him to have something new to do worthy of his talent.

[DeeDee79]

The Snowleopard's recap and review of this ep: http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2019/04/19/the-official-supernatural-jack-in-the-box-14-19-live-recap-thread/

My favorite ( among many ) observations:

The other pattern is disturbing in light of the justifications some fans want to give for Jack (vociferously, even). His entire storyline has been propped up by discarded female characters. When they’re not being fridged to forward his storyline (like Kelly, Dagon, Maggie, Mary and Duma), they’re being threatened and diminished (like Kaia, Stacy and Rowena), or they’re being his mindless cheerleaders (like Duma and Mia Vallens). Dean gets blamed a lot for what happens to these characters, but it’s Jack who actually damages and discards them when he’s done with them.  

And:

And yet, there are fans who will excoriate the show (i.e., Dean) for being sexist, misogynistic, homophobic, even racist, while praising and defending Jack to the skies. I talked last week about the misogyny aimed at Mary as a character, how some fans (even female fans) were happy to blame her death on herself. This is a clear and unfortunate case of how invisible internalized misogyny can be, even among people who believe they are “woke.”

I'm glad that all fans aren't buying this tripe that the writers are trying to sell. 

[trudysmom]

On 4/20/2019 at 7:28 PM, DeeDee79 said:

(quoted from a review) "how some fans (even female fans) were happy to blame her (Mary's) death on herself."

 I'm one of them.  She kept yammering and hammering at Jack until he snapped.  Now, some have suggested that it wasn't him, that someone/thing else was talking to him, acting through him.  But what I saw was her in his face and him saying stop.  Whether he was talking to her or some unseen force only he could hear, MARY heard Jack and still she kept on.  So to me, yes, she bears some of the responsibility.  A "badass hunter" like her should have known better.  

I realized  with this episode  that the problem I have is not Dean  and Sam's manipulation of Jack, that was totally justified, Duma's willingness to use Jack to populate heaven, or Jack's innocent wide-eyed 'it was an accident' attitude (but then, he is 2, so I guess that fits). The problem I have is that I just don't care about any of it.  I only watch any more to see how the boys will handle  whatever nonsense is going on.  More recently, I only care about scenes with Dean.  I know I'm supposed to care that Mary is dead, Not!Bobby is pissed and supposedly lethal,  Jack is throwing a temper tantrum that could destroy everything, and Hallucifer is happily whispering in his ear.   The show wants me to care about all this stuff, but I just don't.  I had to keep reminding myself that Dean was grieving for his mother, because at times I was sort of puzzled about why he looked upset, or angry. 

And then I was annoyed because I had to think about her, and I don't want to think about her!

Edited April 22, 2019 by trudysmom
Clarification, not a direct quote from poster, but from outside source.

[rue721]

I liked this episode, because there were so many creepy/unsettling scenes. The scene when Sam and Dean lure Jack in the box, of course. The scene when Sam asks Dean to talk about Mary, and Dean brushes him off and says "isn't that what we just did" (from memory -- may have gotten that quote slightly wrong). The scene when Jack mesmerizes all those churchgoers and curses their group leader to be "eaten by worms" (everything about that curse was horrifying). All-in-all, this was a legitimately scary episode, which I always appreciate from this show.

On 4/18/2019 at 11:10 PM, SueB said:

Simpler thoughts:
- Did Jack really make angels out of people?  Is that going to last?  
- Is Naomi really in a cell? 
- With Duma dead, who is #292304980987413 on the list to be "in charge of Heaven" now???

I was very confused by Jack making angels out of people, too.

The interaction between Jack and Duma was interesting to me in general, because Jack was completely obedient and seemed happy/relieved to be following her orders. The thing that I think is most interesting about angels is that they're made to be obedient in a way that humans aren't, and I wonder how that comes into play with Jack. He seemed really obedient in this episode in a way he hasn't been before, but maybe that's just because he's at loose ends.

Anyway, that was clearly actual!Lucifer that was talking to Jack, and not some figment of Jack's imagination. There is no way that Jack would know Lucifer well enough to have him behave so true to character, and some of the things that Lucifer was saying just aren't things that I think would occur to Jack anyway. That said, I don't think that Lucifer is controlling Jack or even manipulating him that much -- he seems like he's just sort of harassing him. So I don't really know why he's there, aside from as a dramatic device to give Jack a conversation partner.

Jack seems totally lacking in compassion/empathy now, which is a fairly new thing for him. Dunno how anyone can come back from that. I think that he (and the bit of Lucifer that's hitched a ride in him) will have to get sent to the Empty. I'm unspoiled, that's just apparently where angels go when they need to be locked up permanently, aka, killed.

Anyhow, putting Jack in the box wasn't a bad idea, although how Sam and Dean did it was uncomfortable and creepy as hell (and interesting/fun to watch because of that hahaha). I don't buy that Jack would be able to bust out of the box so easily, either, because I would think that without a soul to supercharge his grace, Jack would be just at regular angel strength (if that). But whatever, this is how the show is playing it, so I'll roll with the punches.

It's interesting that Sam and Dean have now "betrayed" Jack by telling him the exact same pack of lies that Jack wanted Mary to tell him (that everything would be OK, basically). I think it's possible that after Jack killed Nick, Lucifer possessed him and that possession was a factor in Mary getting killed. But at this point, after Jack's weird confession/apology about Mary's death being an accident, I don't think that Jack can be absolved. He openly accepted at least some responsibility for it and wasn't remorseful enough, so there ya go.

You know, I had actually been thinking that at least some of why Jack was so upset about killing her was because he felt guilty, missed her, etc. But this episode made it clear that he really didn't feel any of that. He just wanted to be back in Sam and Dean's good graces, he apparently didn't care about Mary in her own right at all? That's pretty chilling.

Honestly, I thought Cas was the most relatable (to me personally) out of the characters in this episode, though. I mean, he took Mary's death seriously, but he couldn't shut off his love for Jack like a light switch. I think that all their reactions were true to character and made sense, but I thought Cas was pretty sympathetic in this one.

WTF was up with that bizarrely well-attended wake at the beginning, though? And Bobby's entrance with the ax-throwing and the guitar riff? LOL terrible. Also, just not the right tone for the rest of the episode at all. It makes me laugh thinking back on it.

Edited April 21, 2019 by rue721

[DeeDee79]

24 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

She kept yammering and hammering at Jack until he snapped.  Now, some have suggested that it wasn't him, that someone/thing else was talking to him, acting through him.  But what I saw was her in his face and him saying stop.  Whether he was talking to her or some unseen force only he could hear, MARY heard Jack and still she kept on.  So to me, yes, she bears some of the responsibility. 

Saying that she bears some responsibility is one thing. Acting as if Jack is blameless because of Mary or Heaven's interference is another which is the gist of what was stated in the review which is what you quoted. I didn't state it but I don't disagree with it.

28 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Not!Bobby is pissed and supposedly lethal

I could care less about Not!Bobby. OG!Bobby was a great character but after a while he started to wear out his welcome also IMO.

[trudysmom]

9 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't state it but I don't disagree with it.

You're right, DeeDee79, sorry I didn't clarify the quote.  The article is an interesting read, I just found that to be a sticking point.  As to the misogyny the writer was talking about, Supernatural has never treated female characters with much respect, Mary being the ironic exception. It's one of those things about the show I learned to stick my fingers in my ears and la-la-la past because if I think about it too much is pisses me off.

And no, Jack is in no way blameless, not for her or the others he killed at Duma's instruction.  

Edited April 21, 2019 by trudysmom
Clarification

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/19/2019 at 7:51 PM, BabySpinach said:

http://marilynmay.tumblr.com/post/184298702251

I am in love with this expression. Such vivid hate and contempt. He almost doesn't look like Dean. 

His acting in this episode was superlative however that scene and the following in front of the box just blew me away.

I know what you mean about him almost not looking like Dean. In my second rewatch I  started to look for blinking eyes. Is Dean blinking enough. I mean... yes crying in the woods was Dean. The guy sitting at the table at the end... the guy above....

Angel's can hide inside their vessels unbeknowst (Gadreel). But let's just say stupid Jack who in a hubric moment thinks he is the hero that has defeated the monster and swallows his grace which looks to be a total set-up by a nemesis who is fond of long con set-ups designed to demoralize Dean into submission.

The monster survived and is hiding somehow weakened. However he has goaded Jack into losing his soul and taking enough grace into becoming a nephilim again. Maybe Michael is in Jack regaining strength and is the inner voice that taunted him about losing his soul causing him to lose his temper and annihilate Mary. 

At any rate... maybe Dean is just righteously angry. Maybe Michael slipped back in after Jack deconstructed. Now he needs Dean to kill Jack to steal the nephilim grace in a sacrifice that will summon God. IDK.

I do think Dean's eyes were looking more like Michael's and Jensen dropped that hint about the blinking.

I also think it's weird Dean derided God as being a writer of stories in his underwear after Michael said something similar in the same monologue as he indicated he would like to catch up with him and kill him.

???

Edited April 21, 2019 by Castiels Cat