Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[Sakura12]

Since Rey never finished her Jedi training, the Jedi are gone. She should just name the new force users Sky Walkers. I mean that sounds cooler for a group of sorcerers (per the Mandalorian). 

I don't know what people were expecting with Ben. Yes he was manipulated but there were chances for him to make better choices and he still chose the dark path. He got the best possible outcome by dying in the arms of the woman he loved and knowing she loved him back. The rest of galaxy would not be accepting of the man that helped slaughter their family and friends. The galaxy is a big place, the people we saw are not the only ones impacted by what Kylo Ren did. He would either be killed on the spot or tried, then killed. 

Do they want Rey to live in isolation again? That's what she'd have to do with Ben and hope no one finds them. The whole point of this was Rey finding a family with other people. 

[joanne3482]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't know what people were expecting with Ben. Yes he was manipulated but there were chances for him to make better choices and he still chose the dark path. He got the best possible outcome by dying in the arms of the woman he loved and knowing she loved him back. The rest of galaxy would not be accepting of the man that helped slaughter their family and friends. The galaxy is a big place, the people we saw are not the only ones impacted by what Kylo Ren did. He would either be killed on the spot or tried, then killed. 

I like this perspective. It is one I never really thought about, but it makes a lot of sense.  It always bothered me with original recipe, and even now, that the bad guy (Darth Vader and Ren) should be somehow forgiven because they FINALLY did the right thing. In both cases they killed a lot of people. Saving the hero doesn't negate that. 

[katha]

Ultimately, it might just be a case of confusing genres? Ben Solo not wanting to be Kylo Ren anymore might be a decent pitch for a gritty series about a dark grey alternative universe on HBO or Netflix. It might even be interesting. But it's not Star Wars. A family/kid movie that is mostly trying to sell as much seats/toys/Disneyland rides as possible.

[Perfect Xero]

11 hours ago, Anduin said:

I see what you mean, but JJ walked that back by having the Resistance go on the offensive. If he's going to do that, then why not have her more involved in the big fight?

 

Taking the fight to the baddies was always what The Resistance was about. Holdo even dies destroying the bulk of the FO fleet, in one of the most iconic shots in the entire franchise a few minutes before Rose delivers her line.

Rose is a character who strongly expressed a nonviolent philosophy in a film series that's always been built around space battles and laser swords and the bad guys are basically space Nazis. I don't know what sort of role Rian saw for her going forward and how it would play into the ending, but I think JJ wanted to respect that character defining moment for Rose personally, while also not finding it workable on the larger scale of the story conflicts.

[MisterGlass]

I saw this today and managed to avoid any major spoilers beforehand.  (Now I can go back to my fan sites!)  I was hoping that no build up would let me accept what this had to offer. 

Unfortunately, the word that keeps popping into my head is muddled.  This movie, and this 'trilogy.'  There are a lot of really cool ideas that don't gel into a cohesive narrative.  Cohesive narrative is what I want from Star Wars movies, and that isn't what it is now.  Someone upthread said that some people who were mad about TLJ are just disappointed about TROS.  That describes me fairly well.  Hard as it's, been this completes my transition to not a Star Wars fan.

The cynical little voice in the back of my head wants to chime in and say that Disney couldn't resist making Rey a princess.

And when Palpatine was talking about all the Sith being in him, I thought we had somehow crossed over into Dune.

I'm glad those who enjoyed it were entertained.  As always, production design was phenomenal.  It did touch me to see Wedge and Leia.  And I look forward to see all these good actors in other films.

[wanderingstar]

On 12/24/2019 at 3:10 PM, Danny Franks said:

I felt like they tried to cram too much in

This was my lasting feeling about this film. While watching it, I just thought "This is...a LOT." It felt numbing after a while.

[phalange]

I'll preface this by saying there were definitely things I enjoyed: Rey, Finn, and Poe actually getting to interact and go on missions was nice, and I really loved the flashback to young Luke and Leia training together. C3PO being all, "You didn't say my name but I'm fine" to Poe was extremely relatable. Also, Rey using her Jedi mind-powers on the Stormtroopers a la Obi-Wan in A New Hope. And, although "enjoy" isn't the right word, I was moved by the scene of Chewie's grief after learning about Leia's death. 

I purposely read spoilers days ago, which I know was the right choice, because that helped me prepare for the Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter twist, and the grossness of her kissing Kylo Ren (but I did have to laugh that she basically forgot about him 0.5 seconds after he died and she was reunited with her friends). But the fact that happened at all still pisses me off since he was, ya know, a mass murderer who killed his own father right in front of Rey and repeatedly tried to torture and kill her and her friends. Like, cool message to send to girls about what "romance" should look like, JJ. And he was only Ben again at that point because of Leia's sacrifice. I know they could only do so much with the footage they had of Carrie Fisher from the previous movie, but it makes me sad that Leia's end was dying for her Space Nazi son. She deserved a better arc than that. 

Another part of the problem was that a lot of Kylo Ren's dialogue was so cheesy. "I'll bring you to the dark side, Rey!" I just kept thinking of that meme where Baby Yoda calls him an emo with a glow stick.

Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter was disappointing, because I feel like it undercut the message of TLJ where everyone, even "nobodies" can use the Force and make a difference. It seemed like that was also something this movie was trying to allude to (see: "They're just people.") but then they couldn't resist connecting Rey to someone important. She still could have taken on the Skywalker name at the end without the Palpatine backstory. 

I do like the last scene of Rey smiling at Force Ghost!Luke and Leia and then looking out at the twin sunset with BB-8; it was a nice final shot and callback to the very beginning.

[VCRTracking]

Its interesting to see how many fans felt Rey is ruined because people had to have had the same reaction to Luke being Vader's father when it was first revealed back in the day. All these jokes about how the hell could not only Palpatine have sex but also how could anyone have sex with Palpatine, they had about Vader. Of course fans could console themselves that he was lying as they waited for the next movie. Then they discovered not only was it true but Leia was his child as well! However nearly 40 years later people just got used to it. 

 

[Zuleikha]

Quote

Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter was disappointing, because I feel like it undercut the message of TLJ where everyone, even "nobodies" can use the Force and make a difference.

This may seem a little nitpicky, but Rey being a "nobody" and able to use the Force/make a difference isn't the same as "everyone" can use the Force. TLJ continued the rule that only Force-sensitive people can use the Force. 

I feel like I've listened to TLJ fans and anti-TFA people and understand people's different ways of viewing the movies pretty well. But the one that I'm just never going to understand is the idea that TLJ having Rey be the child of random neglectful alcoholics established something important about who can use the Force. Force dynasties have never been a thing. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Zuleikha

[Browncoat]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Its interesting to see how many fans felt Rey is ruined because people had to have had the same reaction to Luke being Vader's father when it was first revealed back in the day. All these jokes about how the hell could not only Palpatine have sex but also how could anyone have sex with Palpatine, they had about Vader. Of course fans could console themselves that he was lying as they waited for the next movie. Then they discovered not only was it true but Leia was his child as well! However nearly 40 years later people just got used to it. 

 

I couldn't have said it better myself!  None of the familial connections between Luke, Leia, and Vader were even hinted at sideways in the first film, or even most of the way through the second, and the revelation certainly put a new spin on the Leia/Luke kiss on Hoth.  But I remember coming out of the second one, trying to convince myself that Vader was lying.

I saw this one again yesterday, and still love it.

[Sakura12]

I still think they made Rey somebody for all the people yelling that Rey was too powerful and good with the force. They made her part of the most powerful force user in the galaxy to explain why she's so good.  If they always planned on having Rey be a Palpatine they should've had Kylo in the Last Jedi tell her she's a nobody than during their final fight had her use her electrical powers. That would've made Kylo and everyone pause, knowing that only one other force user showed that type of power. That's how Kylo, Luke and Leia could've figured out who she is. Of course if Rey was a guy I don't think we would be having this discussion. 

[VCRTracking]

 

17 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

This was my lasting feeling about this film. While watching it, I just thought "This is...a LOT." It felt numbing after a while.

In the end my only gripe is it's so insanely fast. It was like the last 6 episodes of a TV series but the penultimate 5 were extremely condensed. As for the story choices. I don't have really a problem with them. I can't argue though when people complain they were "lazy", "obvious".

Even when I disagree with her I enjoy her videos. Here's Jenny Nicholson's review:

 

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

If they always planned on having Rey be a Palpatine they should've had Kylo in the Last Jedi tell her she's a nobody than during their final fight had her use her electrical powers. That would've made Kylo and everyone pause, knowing that only one other force user showed that type of power. That's how Kylo, Luke and Leia could've figured out who she is.

Don’t we see Dooku use the lightening bolts in Episode II? I thought it was supposed to be a harnessing of the dark side trait, although we never see Vader or Ren (or even Maul) use it. 

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

Don’t we see Dooku use the lightening bolts in Episode II? I thought it was supposed to be a harnessing of the dark side trait, although we never see Vader or Ren (or even Maul) use it. 

Well it would've narrowed it down then. It seems to be one of the more rare dark force powers. 

[Minneapple]

The shippers/fangirls are having a meltdown over some comments John Boyega made on social media about Rey/Kylo (he jokingly said that Finn would "lay the pipe" and Kylo is dead). And now he's egging them on on Twitter. It's amazing. 

 

[katha]

LOL, I wonder if many in the cast are secretly happy that they're "free" of Disney now, no matter how much it has done for their careers? There's not been much promo this time around and they all seem to have slunk off into their own corner and are probably ecstatic that they can get away from the batshit crazy stalker fandom...

Also: Not everyone likes the things you like. Go into your own corner and don't bother other people about not liking the things you like. Fandom never gets that and then they're offended if there's clapback...

[anna0852]

Honestly I chalked the lack of constant hype/actors promoting the movie up to an exhausted Disney PR department. They've had a hell of a year with one major movie after theme park development after another. Maybe they figured a Star Wars movie could promote itself a bit.

I hope the new actors aren't too burned out. I'd really like to get more of Rey, Finn and Poe. This movie left me wondering 'what comes next', which to me means it did it's job. 

[Ravenya003]

3 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I hope the new actors aren't too burned out. I'd really like to get more of Rey, Finn and Poe. This movie left me wondering 'what comes next', which to me means it did it's job. 

My dream is for a (animated?) series or live-action mini-movie about Rey teaching Finn how to use the Force, and then the two of them (accompanied by Poe and BB8) going in search of Force-sensitive children across the galaxy and building a new order that's not about Jedi and Sith, but one that takes the best and discards the worst from both sides. No restrictions on falling in love, no taking children away from the parents, no monastic lifestyle - just an emphasis on helping people and having fun. Most of the conflict in this entire saga could have been avoided if the Jedi had just done this in the first place. 

That said, I can read the subtext in the actors' interviews, and they do seem ready to move on. 

[Fallacy]

I’ve seen so many people complain about Rey and Ben’s kiss because it supports the dangerous narrative that the love of a good woman can turn a bad guy into a good one, but to me, the Rey/Ben thing is the same as the Luke/Anakin thing. The only difference is romantic love versus family love. Luke didn’t love Vader, and Rey didn’t love Kylo Ren. She loved Ben Solo who she saw hidden inside Kylo Ren just like Luke saw his father Anakin inside Vader. Rey and Ren have a nearly identical conversation in The Last Jedi that Luke had with Vader in Return of the Jedi. Rey and Luke both say that they see the conflict and the good in Ren and Vader, respectively. They both are also confident that they can save them, that Ren and Vader will turn back to the light. In this last film, Rey kissing Ben is no different than Luke expressing his love for his father and his loss over his death at the end of Return of the Jedi. 

i just don’t get why Star Wars fans were perfectly willing to accept that Luke loved his father, who he had never known as Anakin, but only inside of Vader, but then some fans hate that Rey loved the Ben she saw inside of Kylo Ren.

My biggest gripe with the movie is that seeing Adam Driver as Ben Solo made me wish the entire new trilogy hadn’t been written with him playing a dark sided Kylo Ren. I thought Driver never looked more gorgeous than he did running in as Ben Solo to stand with Rey against the Emperor, and the beautiful, joyful smile he gave after that kiss just made me wish even more that he played Ben in all three movies.  

Edited January 1, 2020 by Fallacy

[raven]

34 minutes ago, Fallacy said:

i just don’t get why Star Wars fans were perfectly willing to accept that Luke loved his father, who he had never known as Anakin, but only inside of Vader, but then some fans hate that Rey loved the Ben she saw inside of Kylo Ren.

I don't hate the Ben/Rey thing but I can explain the difference to me.

Luke grew up with stories about his father and craved adventure.  Then he finds out his father was a Jedi knight, a hero!  More, he was like his father (good pilot, impulsive, etc) and his father was good friends with Ben Kenobi, a person that Luke cared for almost right away and shared the most important adventure of his life with.

So it makes sense to me that Luke would want to save his father even after everything his father has done as Vader.   I wanted Luke to succeed, not because I cared about Vader but because I cared about Luke.

Rey doesn't know Ben Solo.  All Rey's conversations are with Kylo, not Ben.  She sees Kylo murder his own father, her would-be mentor, a person she cared about.   She doesn't know anything about Ben at all, only vague stories.  As presented in TLJ, it seemed to me that Rey wanted to emulate Luke; that by saving Kylo she would be doing the same thing that Luke did.  I thought this was an interesting set up for a possible failure, fall and return to the light for Rey.

ROS doesn't handle it that way though.    Though I like Rey, I haven't seen her struggle in the same way I did with Luke, so I didn't feel the seem emotional connection to want her to succeed.  I had little doubt she would succeed some way and that Kylo would die - she's already beaten him more than once.    If the movies had shown me more of Ben then I might have cared for his sake but they didn't.

That's why I felt ROS ultimately makes the final trilogy unimaginative.  I like most of the characters and performances (they're fun) but the interesting possibilities raised were discarded for a simpler story with a boring villain (Palpatine) and the easiest ways out IMO.

[Perfect Xero]

 

17 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

This may seem a little nitpicky, but Rey being a "nobody" and able to use the Force/make a difference isn't the same as "everyone" can use the Force. TLJ continued the rule that only Force-sensitive people can use the Force. 

I feel like I've listened to TLJ fans and anti-TFA people and understand people's different ways of viewing the movies pretty well. But the one that I'm just never going to understand is the idea that TLJ having Rey be the child of random neglectful alcoholics established something important about who can use the Force. Force dynasties have never been a thing. 

Right, Rey's family being "nobodies" was actually something I liked in TLJ, but it doesn't exactly break new ground or make the force available for everyone. There were hundreds of Jedi running around during the prequels with no dynasty connecting them. Rey's parentage was treated as a mystery in TFA, which is what had people speculating that she was connected to someone from the OT, not some saga spanning idea that the force is only for a few families.

Rise of Skywalker features an entire unit of Stormtroopers who threw down their weapons because they could all feel a connection to the Force guiding them to do the right thing.

I'm not sure how it's possible to see Finn's story in ROS and coming away from the film thinking it's saying the force is only for a few family lines.

[Ravenya003]

4 hours ago, Fallacy said:

i just don’t get why Star Wars fans were perfectly willing to accept that Luke loved his father, who he had never known as Anakin, but only inside of Vader, but then some fans hate that Rey loved the Ben she saw inside of Kylo Ren.

As a Star Wars fan, I don't really like either of them, though (as said above) there's a big difference for me between a father/son dynamic and one of a teenage girl and the grown man/complete stranger who keeps violently assaulting her.

I also struggle to understand WHERE these feelings Rey apparently had for Kylo/Ben came from. Was it when he kidnapped her, strapped her to a gurney and painfully extracted information from her brain? When he threw her into a tree so hard she lost consciousness? When he beat Finn into a coma? Tortured Poe? Murdered Han Solo? Ordered his troops to open fire on civilians? Told her: "you're no one, you're nothing"?

I don't judge or harass people for their fictional ships, but that so many viewers saw all this happen and thought "this is the start of a beautiful love story!" is a pretty sad indictment of what we've all been conditioned to think of as "romantic."  It's as bizarre as Padme deciding she's hot for Anakin a few minutes after he told her he's just murdered a bunch of people, including children, and I'd hoped that by the year 2019 we'd be past this sort of thing. 

Despite it's faults, I was actually impressed by TLJ's message that "some people aren't interested in being good, and it's not the responsibility of teenage girls to fix that", and felt a huge wave of weariness come over me when TROS decided upon yet another reiteration of "shitty men aren't that bad deep down, and deserve endless second chances".

I am so profoundly tired of hearing this, in fiction and in real life. 

 

 

Edit: I was however grateful that Rey was depicted as happy and fulfilled in the scenes after Kylo's death, which at least made it clear that she's got a long and rewarding life ahead of her that isn't going to waste one more second on him.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Ravenya003

[MisterGlass]

I think there were two good Kylo Ren arcs that could have been accomplished in this series: 1) unrepentant, power hungry figure growing less human, or 2) man mislead as a young teen by external forces for their own ends (the whispering in his mind introduced in this film), slowly realizing how wrong he's been.  The problem is that they didn't commit to either one across this trilogy.  I think Adam Driver did well with what he had, and he is a talented actor, but it doesn't hold together as a continuous story.

[katie9918]

Quite frankly, Palpatine wanting so badly for the last of Anakin’s line to go down was enough for me to be pissed that the Skywalker bloodline was extinguished in this film.

 

And there were many ways to angst the hell out of our OT trio without completely breaking them apart (the Legends continuity gives PLENTY of ways) and rendering them irrelevant, just like there were plenty of ways to introduce our new heroes without completely depressing the OT fans.

 

After the OT and the PT, sorry, but I’m rooting for ANY sign that Ben Solo, Anakin Skywalker’s grandson, helped defeat Palpatine, because it was Palpatine’s victimization of Anakin that literally kick-started this wonderful adventure (for the audience, I mean) in the first place and the Skywalkers (the actual Skywalkers, not someone appropriated the name) EARNED the right to finally defeat Palpatine.

Edited January 1, 2020 by katie9918

[katha]

Honestly, all the passive aggressive backstabbing of the creators that has come out after TROS and the way they are trying to shift responsibility/blame? I REALLY, REALLY want to know how chaotic/messy it was behind the scenes. This really reeks of the last Hobbit movie.

And yeah, it's the last part, so of course they're moving on. But the way Isaacs and Boyega have openly shown aggravation and everyone else in the cast basically quickly did their PR obligations and then disappeared? They're probably really, really tired of this mess at this point. The fandom is a menace (most of the fandom is totally fine, but the loudest ones are hellish) and TPTB don't seem that well organized. For all the messiness and issues, I liked the movies. But I fear that the longer it went on, it might not have been such a pleasant experience for the cast, so I'm sorry for that.

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, raven said:

Rey doesn't know Ben Solo.  All Rey's conversations are with Kylo, not Ben.  She sees Kylo murder his own father, her would-be mentor, a person she cared about.   She doesn't know anything about Ben at all, only vague stories.  As presented in TLJ, it seemed to me that Rey wanted to emulate Luke; that by saving Kylo she would be doing the same thing that Luke did.  I thought this was an interesting set up for a possible failure, fall and return to the light for Rey.

That's what rang utterly false to me, about her saying she would have taken Ben's hand. The only 'Ben' she ever knew is the one he pretended to be when he was trying to gaslight her in The Last Jedi. When he was claiming only he could understand her, that their connection was special, all the bullshit that manipulative liars always come out with.

I will always consider Rey's main motivation in reaching out to Kylo Ren to be because she didn't believe she could be the hero the Rebellion needed - she went to find Luke to get him to lead and inspire. He said no. Then she started buying into Kylo Ren's bullshit and starting to believe he was an unfairly maligned, tragic figure... maybe he could be the hero. Then she saw who he really was, in the aftermath of killing Snoke, and turned her back on him. And the final scene of her in the movie is when she finally accepts that she's the hero the Rebellion needs - she literally rescues the entirety of the remaining Rebels, and renders them speechless with awe.

Whatever people say about Rian Johnson, I believe that's what he was going for, with Rey. And I think he absolutely nailed that arc.

JJ Abrams, Disney or whoever made the final creative decisions, muddled that badly, in TROS.

9 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

As a Star Wars fan, I don't really like either of them, though (as said above) there's a big difference for me between a father/son dynamic and one of a teenage girl and the grown man/complete stranger who keeps violently assaulting her.

I also struggle to understand WHERE these feelings Rey apparently had for Kylo/Ben came from. Was it when he kidnapped her, strapped her to a gurney and painfully extracted information from her brain? When he threw her into a tree so hard she lost consciousness? When he beat Finn into a coma? Tortured Poe? Murdered Han Solo? Ordered his troops to open fire on civilians? Told her: "you're no one, you're nothing"?

I don't judge or harass people for their fictional ships, but that so many viewers saw all this happen and thought "this is the start of a beautiful love story!" is a pretty sad indictment of what we've all been conditioned to think of as "romantic."  It's as bizarre as Padme deciding she's hot for Anakin a few minutes after he told her he's just murdered a bunch of people, including children, and I'd hoped that by the year 2019 we'd be past this sort of thing. 

Despite it's faults, I was actually impressed by TLJ's message that "some people aren't interested in being good, and it's not the responsibility of teenage girls to fix that", and felt a huge wave of weariness come over me when TROS decided upon yet another reiteration of "shitty men aren't that bad deep down, and deserve endless second chances".

I am so profoundly tired of hearing this, in fiction and in real life. 

Edit: I was however grateful that Rey was depicted as happy and fulfilled in the scenes after Kylo's death, which at least made it clear that she's got a long and rewarding life ahead of her that isn't going to waste one more second on him.

Hear, hear. As I've said, I believe Rey's main motivation in TLJ was her desire to find a hero, while she was unable to see that she was the hero. I don't think she had romantic feelings for Kylo Ren at all, when she was appealing for him to return to the Light side. She was thinking about the Rebellion, not about whether she found Kylo Ren attractive.

And there's even less in TROS to suggest she should be interested in him. He stalks her, both through the Force and physically, implying he'll always be there, just waiting for her. It's creepy as fuck, and no one should ever find that attractive. He abused her and her friends, he killed people she cared about, he gaslighted, manipulated and attempted to diminish her to the point she would have to accept the rightness of him. Not too many years ago, entire movies were written with any one of these qualities as the main driver of an antagonist.

Abrams, from my point of view, completely misunderstood what Rian Johnson was saying, with their interactions in TLJ. I think Johnson was actively and overtly saying 'do not fall for these BS, unhealthy tropes,' and then closing the door to a potential relationship when Kylo Ren showed that he didn't give a shit about anyone but himself.

And yes, it was great that she was happy in the last scene. Melancholy, because she was thinking of Luke and Leia, but not because of Kylo Ren. And the final scene was her looking forward, into a galaxy of opportunities and possibilities.

9 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I think there were two good Kylo Ren arcs that could have been accomplished in this series: 1) unrepentant, power hungry figure growing less human, or 2) man mislead as a young teen by external forces for their own ends (the whispering in his mind introduced in this film), slowly realizing how wrong he's been.  The problem is that they didn't commit to either one across this trilogy.  I think Adam Driver did well with what he had, and he is a talented actor, but it doesn't hold together as a continuous story.

Well, the problem is that JJ Abrams and then Rian Johnson committed to the first option you outline, then there was a pullback from that in TROS. It felt very calculated - 'we need to give Kylo Ren a redemption arc, because that's what happens with the bad guys, and because a lot of fans will be pissed at us if we don't.'

There was nothing organic about it at all. Rey fights and kills him, only Force healing him because to kill in rage would be against everything she is. Then we get Han Solo to ghost in and say, 'it's okay that you impaled me. No hard feelings, now be a good lad, hey?' Nah, fuck that. Kylo Ren didn't earn that forgiveness, any more than he earned Rey's kiss.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Minneapple]

9 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

As a Star Wars fan, I don't really like either of them, though (as said above) there's a big difference for me between a father/son dynamic and one of a teenage girl and the grown man/complete stranger who keeps violently assaulting her.

I also struggle to understand WHERE these feelings Rey apparently had for Kylo/Ben came from. Was it when he kidnapped her, strapped her to a gurney and painfully extracted information from her brain? When he threw her into a tree so hard she lost consciousness? When he beat Finn into a coma? Tortured Poe? Murdered Han Solo? Ordered his troops to open fire on civilians? Told her: "you're no one, you're nothing"?

I don't judge or harass people for their fictional ships, but that so many viewers saw all this happen and thought "this is the start of a beautiful love story!" is a pretty sad indictment of what we've all been conditioned to think of as "romantic."  It's as bizarre as Padme deciding she's hot for Anakin a few minutes after he told her he's just murdered a bunch of people, including children, and I'd hoped that by the year 2019 we'd be past this sort of thing. 

Despite it's faults, I was actually impressed by TLJ's message that "some people aren't interested in being good, and it's not the responsibility of teenage girls to fix that", and felt a huge wave of weariness come over me when TROS decided upon yet another reiteration of "shitty men aren't that bad deep down, and deserve endless second chances".

I am so profoundly tired of hearing this, in fiction and in real life. 

Edit: I was however grateful that Rey was depicted as happy and fulfilled in the scenes after Kylo's death, which at least made it clear that she's got a long and rewarding life ahead of her that isn't going to waste one more second on him.

This romantic trope will never die. Nope. Not even in 2019. And yeah, I don't mind that people ship it. People ship weirder couples. What I don't like is when shippers turn it into something it's not, a great and powerful love story, and Kylo only murdered people because he was so sad and misunderstood and he deserves happiness. I always compare it to how some people see Wuthering Heights as some kind of tragic romantic love story. Fuck that. Just own the fact that it's a twisted relationship that is not entirely healthy. 

I also loved that Rey was happy on her own in the end. She started the series alone and lonely, but she ended it knowing she's okay and fulfilled as a person on her on her own. That's a solid ending for her character.

[katha]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

This romantic trope will never die. Nope. Not even in 2019. And yeah, I don't mind that people ship it. People ship weirder couples. What I don't like is when shippers turn it into something it's not, a great and powerful love story, and Kylo only murdered people because he was so sad and misunderstood and he deserves happiness. I always compare it to how some people see Wuthering Heights as some kind of tragic romantic love story. Fuck that. Just own the fact that it's a twisted relationship that is not entirely healthy. 

I also loved that Rey was happy on her own in the end. She started the series alone and lonely, but she ended it knowing she's okay and fulfilled as a person on her on her own. That's a solid ending for her character.

WH is a great comparison, actually. And I think that aspect was one of the few things in the new movie that worked (obviously it's controversial and people disagree, as everyone has been disagreeing about everyhing in these stupid space wizard movies for hundreds of years, apparently 😉 ). But the problem with certain sections of shippers has always been: They can't just stay in their corner, do their art and be happy with what they've got. They want to force it on everybody else and harrass actors, creators etc. for it. And yeah, it probably really is a confusion of genre for the ones who are most loudly outraged or refusing to see that they're mixing up genres.

LOL, it's always the same. Harmonians, Spuffy, Johnlocks, whatever else... Why does a section of shippers inevitably go insane and ruin it for everyone else?

[Jillibean]

I saw it again and liked it a bit better (though I did also enjoy it the first time) maybe because I knew exactly what to expect so I could enjoy the parts that I liked more without being as “wait, what?” about the other parts. But one thing that bothered me a lot this time around was how Rey kept leaving her friends in danger to go chase Kylo Ren. It was her fault that Chewie was captured, and the only reason that the rest of her friends got away is that Kylo literally stood there and let them go. Then she left Poe and Finn on their own on the Star Destroyer and, save Hux’s unexpected interference, they’d be dead. At least Luke had awareness that he was endangering his friends because his father could sense him. Rey just kept leaving them in impossible positions so she could go flirt. I know the second one was theoretically about the dagger, but it didn’t ring quite true to me. Both times she gets that “force” look and then rapidly and vaguely excuses herself, leaving the boys in peril. 

On 12/28/2019 at 5:05 PM, VCRTracking said:

Kylo is NOT her cousin.  I think there's some canon comic recently that implies Palpatine was behind Anakin's virgin birth but I really prefer the notion that the Force brought him into being.

Yup! Furthermore, after seeing this Idea being floated around post TROS, the author of the comic and the story group confirmed that Palpatine is not Anakin’s father. Rey and Ben/Kylo are not related.

On 12/30/2019 at 1:28 AM, Zuleikha said:

 

She's a mechanic. Why would she have anything to do in the big battle?

This is why I hate the Rose-got-sidelined-so-toxic-fandom-wins kvetching. The only argument for more Rose that people are giving is because she's the first major female Asian character and her absence "lets" toxic fans win. That's a meta argument, not a narrative-based argument. It also contributes to the sense of Star Wars as a cultural battlezone that the same people generally decry. 

At the same time though, it can be a meta argument to contend that there’s no narrative reason Rose needed a bigger role. The writers write the narrative. The reason she’s not narratively necessary is because that’s not what they wrote.  I personally can’t find it a coincidence that she’s the character who was introduced by Rian—I assume not using her was part of what seems to be JJ’s middle finger to him in this movie. But the fact that so many people, casual and hardcore fans alike, are questioning it or commenting on it indicates to me that not using Rose did leave a hole in this movie and in the end of this trilogy, the same way excising Poe or Finn or even Hux from movie two would have left a hole. When someone is established a s a leading character, you expect them to do something. The fact that she’s a mechanic isn’t relevant. Rey was also a mechanic/scavenger. If they had wanted her in the story, they would have found a way to put her in the story. The suggestion from Chris that she had lots of scenes but they were all unusable isn’t going to satisfy anyone who was bothered by this.

On 12/30/2019 at 1:15 PM, Danny Franks said:

I really liked that aspect of the movie, because it showed genuine growth in Rey. She went to find Luke in TLJ to try and get him to be the hero of the Rebellion (she then tried to appeal to Kylo Ren, because she thought maybe he could be the hero). But by the time this movie takes place, she's accepted that she is the hero, and Leia is mentoring her, as another woman who understands what it's like to have the weight of the galaxy on her shoulders.

I like this thought. Similarly, while I know there are people unhappy with Rey ending the movie in Tatooine because she’s back on a sand planet alone, it occurs to me that that’s sort of the point. Physically, she’s in a very similar place to where she started in TFA. But she’s content, because spiritually she’s in a completely different place. She’s a Jedi with a family. She’s not alone anymore, and she knows what her place in the world is. 

Quote

Abrams should have had the courage to say 'no, Rey closed the door on this notion at the end of TLJ. She outright rejected Kylo Ren.' That's what Rian Johnson set up, and while I didn't like the fuel he gave the shippers leading up to that, I felt he made the right choice to represent Kylo Ren as a Nice Guy, trying to gaslight Rey into joining him.

11 hours ago, raven said:

Rey doesn't know Ben Solo.  All Rey's conversations are with Kylo, not Ben.  She sees Kylo murder his own father, her would-be mentor, a person she cared about.   She doesn't know anything about Ben at all, only vague stories.  As presented in TLJ, it seemed to me that Rey wanted to emulate Luke; that by saving Kylo she would be doing the same thing that Luke did.  I thought this was an interesting set up for a possible failure, fall and return to the light for Rey.

I think this is really interesting, because this wasn’t my interpretation from TLJ and it helps me see where some of the confusion about the ship being established in TLJ is coming in. I felt that Rey DID get to see and know aspects of Ben Solo during TLJ. We establish from the beginning that Kylo Ren is a character who is caught between the dark and the light. I felt that through their conversations, the part of Kylo that was light (the Ben part) truly connected with and cared about Rey, understanding some of her experiences in a way other people couldn’t. I assumed that they also had conversations we didn’t get to see, since by the time they go to touch hands they both seem to have a deeper understanding of each other. When he tells her she’s not alone, I felt it was sincere, as was his relief and awe at her returning the sentiment.  When he killed Snoke, I thought he was very close to turning back to the light, but ultimately couldn’t break free of his problematic thought structure about the world and need for power. And then of course Rey “abandoned” him, as he saw it, and the rage cycle kicked in and Ben Solo was more fully eclipsed by Kylo Ren. There was ALSO some manipulation and gaslighting in there, particularly when he’s trying to get her to turn, which to me reflected that Ben/Kylo himself had been so groomed by an abuser that he has internalized that as a way to interact with people and get what you want from them. But based on that movie, I felt that the Ben part of Kylo genuinely had a soft spot for Rey and it made sense to me that in this movie he didn’t want to kill her. From Rey’s perspective, I think she saw true parts of Ben Solo and of course had a vision (that played out in this movie) that he would turn and fight beside her. But also...

29 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

What I don't like is when shippers turn it into something it's not, a great and powerful love story, and Kylo only murdered people because he was so sad and misunderstood and he deserves happiness. I always compare it to how some people see Wuthering Heights as some kind of tragic romantic love story. Fuck that. Just own the fact that it's a twisted relationship that is not entirely healthy. .

THIS. No amount of Ben Solo being in there and connecting with Rey does or would mitigate what Kylo Ren has done. He’s not, as the shippers insist, “a soft boi” (whatever that even means), and that thought is really concerning. As is some of the anger that Rey “rejected” Kylo by saying she only wanted Ben. Of course she rejected Kylo! Kylo is a mass murdering sociopath! Oy vey.

I do have to say that if there’s one thing that makes me doubt my own interpretation from TLJ, it’s Driver’s acting in this one. He so clearly establishes that Ben Solo is a completely different person than Kylo, which makes me wonder if we were really seeing any of him in TLJ. Incidentally, I also think the people who think it would have been more interesting or satisfying for him to live—not in a HEA but to have to atone to the universe—are drawing from how compelling Driver’s short time inhabiting the character was. I’m not talking about the shippers, because that’s another story completely. Unfortunately, even if they had left the door open on him in the hopes of adding supplementary material at some point, I’m sure Adam Driver is done.

[Danny Franks]

21 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

But one thing that bothered me a lot this time around was how Rey kept leaving her friends in danger to go chase Kylo Ren. It was her fault that Chewie was captured, and the only reason that the rest of her friends got away is that Kylo literally stood there and let them go. Then she left Poe and Finn on their own on the Star Destroyer and, save Hux’s unexpected interference, they’d be dead. At least Luke had awareness that he was endangering his friends because his father could sense him. Rey just kept leaving them in impossible positions so she could go flirt. I know the second one was theoretically about the dagger, but it didn’t ring quite true to me. Both times she gets that “force” look and then rapidly and vaguely excuses herself, leaving the boys in peril. 

That bothered me a lot too. Rey just wandered off, distracted either by Kylo Ren's presence or by the urgency of her mission, too many times. The Rey from the end of TLJ would not have been so distracted by the guy she had closed the door on.

21 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

I like this thought. Similarly, while I know there are people unhappy with Rey ending the movie in Tatooine because she’s back on a sand planet alone, it occurs to me that that’s sort of the point. Physically, she’s in a very similar place to where she started in TFA. But she’s content, because spiritually she’s in a completely different place. She’s a Jedi with a family. She’s not alone anymore, and she knows what her place in the world is. 

I can't understand people who are disappointed that she ended the movie on Tatooine. It's like they think she has no life outside the immediacy of what we see on screen. Yes, she's on Tatooine when the movie ends, and yes she's alone (except for BB-8), but she's not stuck there. Just off screen, the Millennium Falcon will be waiting, with Chewie and maybe Finn and Poe too. She controls her own destiny.

21 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

I think this is really interesting, because this wasn’t my interpretation from TLJ and it helps me see where some of the confusion about the ship being established in TLJ is coming in. I felt that Rey DID get to see and know aspects of Ben Solo during TLJ. We establish from the beginning that Kylo Ren is a character who is caught between the dark and the light. I felt that through their conversations, the part of Kylo that was light (the Ben part) truly connected with and cared about Rey, understanding some of her experiences in a way other people couldn’t. I assumed that they also had conversations we didn’t get to see, since by the time they go to touch hands they both seem to have a deeper understanding of each other. When he tells her she’s not alone, I felt it was sincere, as was his relief and awe at her returning the sentiment.  When he killed Snoke, I thought he was very close to turning back to the light, but ultimately couldn’t break free of his problematic thought structure about the world and need for power. And then of course Rey “abandoned” him, as he saw it, and the rage cycle kicked in and Ben Solo was more fully eclipsed by Kylo Ren. There was ALSO some manipulation and gaslighting in there, particularly when he’s trying to get her to turn, which to me reflected that Ben/Kylo himself had been so groomed by an abuser that he has internalized that as a way to interact with people and get what you want from them. But based on that movie, I felt that the Ben part of Kylo genuinely had a soft spot for Rey and it made sense to me that in this movie he didn’t want to kill her. From Rey’s perspective, I think she saw true parts of Ben Solo and of course had a vision (that played out in this movie) that he would turn and fight beside her.

See, I consider most of what he said to Rey in TLJ to be manipulation. Particularly that "you're not alone" stuff because... she wasn't alone. She had Finn, she had Leia and even though Luke was being a dick, she hadn't given up trying to reach him. I thought Kylo Ren 'reassuring' her that she wasn't alone was pure gaslighting and projection, playing on her insecurities about being abandoned.

As for killing Snoke, I considered that him making a choice between his openly derisive master and the cute girl that he thought he could control. His own ambition led him to decide that he could be the master, and that Rey could be his biddable apprentice. As they fought alongside each other, both he and Rey completely misunderstood the circumstances - Rey thought that she was bringing 'Ben' back to the Light, and Kylo Ren thought he was bringing Rey to the Dark side.

Despite the odd, very prudish approach to romance that this trilogy had, I didn't doubt that Kylo Ren had the hots for Rey. Let's be honest, she's very attractive, both in her own right and as a source of Force power who would be a formidable ally.

21 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

THIS. No amount of Ben Solo being in there and connecting with Rey does or would mitigate what Kylo Ren has done. He’s not, as the shippers insist, “a soft boi” (whatever that even means), and that thought is really concerning. As is some of the anger that Rey “rejected” Kylo by saying she only wanted Ben. Of course she rejected Kylo! Kylo is a mass murdering sociopath! Oy vey.

Ew, gross. I made the conscious decision after TFA to never, ever read anything that the mad, Kylo/Rey 'shippers had to say. It was all too disturbing, and based on their own, fantasy versions of what Kylo Ren should be like - 'he's dreamy, how can he really be bad?' Propagating that idea of handsome, misunderstood woobies who just need to be loved is one of the worst things this new trilogy has done (and as I say, I think Rian Johnson understood that, and was trying to kill it).

I also can't help but wonder if different decisions would have been made, by the filmmakers and the fans, if... say... Finn was a white guy with luxuriant, flowing hair.

21 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

I do have to say that if there’s one thing that makes me doubt my own interpretation from TLJ, it’s Driver’s acting in this one. He so clearly establishes that Ben Solo is a completely different person than Kylo, which makes me wonder if we were really seeing any of him in TLJ. Incidentally, I also think the people who think it would have been more interesting or satisfying for him to live—not in a HEA but to have to atone to the universe—are drawing from how compelling Driver’s short time inhabiting the character was. I’m not talking about the shippers, because that’s another story completely. Unfortunately, even if they had left the door open on him in the hopes of adding supplementary material at some point, I’m sure Adam Driver is done.

That's an interesting thought. As observed, Driver moved differently as Ben. He had a confidence that seemed more relaxed and assured, and his fighting style was even different. While I'm not keen on the idea that falling to the Dark side makes you a different person (because if it does, that apparently gives you a pass on everything that person did), Driver did seem to play it that way. 

It seems a very simplistic way of delineating good and evil, and one that's really at odds with everything about Star Wars - Vader was tragic because he fell, not because he became another person. It might have been easier for Obi Wan to dissemble and fudge the truth, when he told Luke that Vader "betrayed and murdered" Anakin, but that's not what happened. 

[emjohnson03]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

 

That's an interesting thought. As observed, Driver moved differently as Ben. He had a confidence that seemed more relaxed and assured, and his fighting style was even different. While I'm not keen on the idea that falling to the Dark side makes you a different person (because if it does, that apparently gives you a pass on everything that person did), Driver did seem to play it that way. 

It seems a very simplistic way of delineating good and evil, and one that's really at odds with everything about Star Wars - Vader was tragic because he fell, not because he became another person. It might have been easier for Obi Wan to dissemble and fudge the truth, when he told Luke that Vader "betrayed and murdered" Anakin, but that's not what happened. 

Wow excellent points. Actually all you guys are nailing both the strengths and weaknesses of these last 3 films. 

I personally thought Kylo/Ben was one of the best elements (if not THE BEST) of the last 3 films but that's mainly because his character seemed to be the most conflicted and fleshed out, as opposed to others like Finn and Poe that either had alot to do or nothing. And yes, Driver clearly made his commitment to both sides and that's what sold it for me. He seemed to be very "method" in the fact that he became these people as he was filming, therefore that's why you see him do so well to change into Ben, and even worked with Ford to get it "right." He committed and you have to give him all the props. At the same time, I think he looked it as a new experience to grow as an actor and doesn't want to really do more than that. But I really hope he does a fun skit in SNL with Star Wars but maybe not. The Undercover Boss SNL skit as "Matt" is one the best things SNL has done in the last 10 years.

I have to do a re-watch of all 3 to see the progression. Personally I really liked TLJ because Rey and Kylo had a story that you could understand. To me, that was the one thing they brought to this film as opposed to alot of other stuff that they didn't.

I personally see the romantic connection to Rey and I think it was fan service to have them kiss but goodness gracious was Adam spectacular with the longing and finally, that smile. But again totally opinion on my part that it worked for me. 

In conclusion, more Ben please. 

 

[Morrigan2575]

I was looking up Ahsoka's age for another thread and got dragged down a rabbit hole of things I kind of forgot about TCW and Rebels.  

I wish RoS had Rey be Han/Leia's (or even Luke's) daughter, hidden away after Ben/Kylo Ren destroy the school. They could have done the whole Diode thing using the Sister (Lightside) Brother (Darkside), Father/Mother (Balance between the two) from The Clone Wars and Rebels. 

I think familial love would have played much better with their connection, Ben's return to the lightside and sacrificing himself to revive baby sister/cousin.  Plus it would have made more sense for Rey to take the name Skywalker, since it was her grandfather's name.

I didn't hate the Palpatine reveal but, I just think it would have worked much better had she been directly connected to Ben as either sister or cousin.

Plus, I did hate that Reylo kiss.

[Fallacy]

I still think JJ copied the arc of the original trilogy and relied on the fact that Ben Solo is Han and Leia’s son so he could assume safely that most of the audience would want to see Kylo Ren turn back to the light. The audience’s love of Han and Leia made us primed to root for their son to turn to the light. Plus, JJ gave us a very conflicted Kylo Ren from the start while Vader didn’t seem at all conflicted in the first or even the second film. 

[Minneapple]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Ew, gross. I made the conscious decision after TFA to never, ever read anything that the mad, Kylo/Rey 'shippers had to say. It was all too disturbing, and based on their own, fantasy versions of what Kylo Ren should be like - 'he's dreamy, how can he really be bad?' Propagating that idea of handsome, misunderstood woobies who just need to be loved is one of the worst things this new trilogy has done (and as I say, I think Rian Johnson understood that, and was trying to kill it).

I mean they did kill him off. For everything the filmmakers/writers did wrong, they got that right. There was no other place to take the character unless they were going to write another movie focused solely on his redemption. Like Angel or Nikita in movie form, where Ben goes around the galaxy saving people, fighting crime, trying to to good things and being angsty about it. But that isn't happening, so a sacrificial death is actually a really good ending for him. It "redeems" him to some extent. Just take it and be happy with it, fandom. 

I didn't hate the kiss so much, though I did think it was a bit jarring. I think they had built up enough sexual tension for it and Adam and Daisy did have some good chemistry. But mostly it really made me wish we had gotten a kiss in Rogue One. Now there was a romance that deserved a happy ending.

[Browncoat]

The kiss wasn't my favorite part, but I was incredibly relieved Ben didn't kiss Rey while she was mostly dead -- and even more relieved that the kiss was not what brought life back to her.  That would have been pushing it just a little too far.  Better that she kissed him in gratitude.

[Zuleikha]

At the same time though, it can be a meta argument to contend that there’s no narrative reason Rose needed a bigger role. The writers write the narrative. The reason she’s not narratively necessary is because that’s not what they wrote.

I don't agree. I think the reason she's not narratively necessary is because Rian Johnson failed to write her as a necessary character. She has no character ties to Rey or Kylo, the two characters the third movie HAS to center. She has no real character relationship with Poe, and her story based connection is assisting him in a failed, mutinous action. (She should have had a complex relationship with him due to his earlier mutiny directly causing the death of her sister, but Johnson dropped the ball on that). She has a strong character connection to Finn, but her emotional connection is also... well, kind of weak for carrying over into another movie. She has a crush on him, but Johnson didn't write it as a mutual romance (or Boyega didn't play it that way or the two actors just don't have chemistry.)

On top of that, she has no knowledge about Jedi or the Force and she's not military. So she doesn't make sense to write into Rey's arc, and she doesn't make sense to be in Resistance military fight scenes.

So yes, the writers could have contrived a plot to give her screen time, but they already had a lot of work to do. Putting Rose with Leia as an anchor for Resistance base scenes was actually a pretty good idea for a way to connect her with the ongoing story. Unfortunately, it didn't end up working--either because the film had too many other things going on or because of technical limitations. 

Of course, even putting Rose with Leia is already contrived because Rose isn't a character Leia would naturally strategize with or confide in. Maz Kanata makes more sense for the Force-related/Kylo-related stuff that she was used for. Commander D'Acy would have made more sense for strategy.

Poe is an interesting contrast because I would argue that narratively speaking, Poe absolutely did not need a large role in the second movie. He was a secondary character in The Force Awakens (maybe even a tertiary). He could have easily stayed a secondary character or been demoted to a tertiary, with a few scenes to lead the pilots or joke around with Finn. But despite some fan's complaints about how derivative TFA was, fans in general also seemed to really want to find parallels. That led to fans annointing Poe the third member of the parallel trio, even though TFA really only had two leads. Johnson then locked that in by making the Resistance side of the story all about Poe's growth as a person/leader (in incredibly problematic ways, IMHO, but nevertheless...). So by the third movie, Poe did need to be significant. He also has more chemistry with Boyega and more relevant skills.

[Perfect Xero]

I still believe (and I know it's extremely unpopular) that they should have either recast Leia or written her out of the film if they weren't willing to do that.

Carrie was amazing and iconic, but I'll take an actress who could actually be part of the scenes and performance over awkwardly trying to create a new performance from Carrie by editing in out of context old footage.

[anna0852]

I really enjoyed how neither Finn or Poe had any issues with Rey's powers and overall strength. At the beginning Poe is ticked that their 'strongest fighter' isn't in the field. Finn says they're going with Rey because she's their friend, not because she needs protecting. Even when she's trying to pull a ship from the sky neither of them is intimidated. Her power is simply part of her and something to be respected. I really liked that.

[Anduin]

20 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

I really enjoyed how neither Finn or Poe had any issues with Rey's powers and overall strength. At the beginning Poe is ticked that their 'strongest fighter' isn't in the field. Finn says they're going with Rey because she's their friend, not because she needs protecting. Even when she's trying to pull a ship from the sky neither of them is intimidated. Her power is simply part of her and something to be respected. I really liked that.

They had one quibble, IIRC. When they're on the star destroyer and she mind tricks those two stormtroopers, I think it's Poe who asks if she does that to them. But it's never followed up on.

Hey, you think those two troopers are the ones from TFA walking down the hallway when Ren had his tantrum?

[Kel Varnsen]

Saw it today with my daughter who is 6. I mostly liked it although I am not really a huge star Wars fan. She said it was the best star Wars movie she had ever seen. She has seen all of them although this being the first one she has seen on the big screen might have something to do with her opinion. The best part for me was the awesome look on her face when Chewie and Lando showed up with all those other ships.

I did think they kind of just handwaved how the Emperor was alive (plus who were all those other people in the temple thing with him, I thought there could only be two Sith at any given time). I also thought the first half felt a bit like a video game where level 1 is get the knife, then level 2 is rescue Chewie and so on.

It was action packed though which was nice (her and I were rewatching episode 4 recently and by comparison it is super slow) and there were some beautiful shots. My only other real problem is a problem I have with all Star Wars movies, people only use the force when it is convenient to the story. I didn't see any reason why Rey couldn't have just forced those motor bikes to crash, or lifted them out of the quicksand. Hell shouldn't she just have been able to fly herself over the water to the death star?

 

[Danny Franks]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 10:13 PM, anna0852 said:

I really enjoyed how neither Finn or Poe had any issues with Rey's powers and overall strength. At the beginning Poe is ticked that their 'strongest fighter' isn't in the field. Finn says they're going with Rey because she's their friend, not because she needs protecting. Even when she's trying to pull a ship from the sky neither of them is intimidated. Her power is simply part of her and something to be respected. I really liked that.

I like that they both seem alternately awed by and proud of her. It's a cool dynamic, although I'd have liked to see their mutual friendship explored more, instead of having Rey wander off to 'flirt' with Kylo Ren at every opportunity.

The bickering with Poe after he and Finn returned from the light speed skipping (I didn't care for that) was cute, and reminiscent of Han and Leia. But it went nowhere. And Finn never managing to talk to Rey about what he wanted to talk about was annoying.

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It was action packed though which was nice (her and I were rewatching episode 4 recently and by comparison it is super slow) and there were some beautiful shots. My only other real problem is a problem I have with all Star Wars movies, people only use the force when it is convenient to the story. I didn't see any reason why Rey couldn't have just forced those motor bikes to crash, or lifted them out of the quicksand. Hell shouldn't she just have been able to fly herself over the water to the death star?

Yeah, Force powers have always been inconsistently applied. Take Phantom Menace, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run at super speed to get away from the droids, but then Ob-Wan runs at normal speed when he's trying to reach Qui-Gon and Darth Maul, only to not be fast enough.

These powers, once established, can't be ignored just because it's narratively convenient. If you get yourself in that situation, then you need to write around it and either figure out why the power wouldn't work in this instance, or figure out a way of getting them out of the earlier predicament without establishing said power.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Yeah, Force powers have always been inconsistently applied. Take Phantom Menace, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run at super speed to get away from the droids, but then Ob-Wan runs at normal speed when he's trying to reach Qui-Gon and Darth Maul, only to not be fast enough.

Even my daughter picks up on this sometimes. When her and I were watching episode 3 at the end when Yoda and the Emperor are fighting there is a part where Yoda is nearly beaten and is hanging on a ledge by one hand trying not to fall off. When she saw that she yelled "Just Use the Force!" at the tv 

[MisterGlass]

On the inconsistent application of force powers, a Fandom/Screen Junkies discussion video raised one I hadn't thought about: Qui-Gon died from basically the same wound that Rey healed in Kylo.  No force healing available then.

[Sakura12]

They probably should've gone with using the force takes effort and exhausts them a bit so using it all the time on the battlefield isn't wise. 

[absnow54]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

They probably should've gone with using the force takes effort and exhausts them a bit so using it all the time on the battlefield isn't wise. 

I give that a pass, because it seems like Rey is learning from the raw Jedi texts, and not the heavily censored version that was probably taught in the Jedi Temple. Using the Force to create life falls more in line with the dark side, or at least a temptation towards it, which is why I could see the Jedi council nixing that chapter. 

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

They probably should've gone with using the force takes effort and exhausts them a bit so using it all the time on the battlefield isn't wise. 

They should have come up with something at some point but it would have had to be back when they were writing the Original trilogy. The first two movies with Rey are at least kind of like A New Hope and Empire where you have someone who is inexperienced so it makes sense that they don't always use the force effectively.

But this one reminds me of Jedi. Luke didn't need to throw the rock at the damn switch in Jabba's palace to kill the beast he just could have turned it with the force. And in this one you had Rey spending all that effort to climb the tower thing on the Death Star when like an hour hand a half earlier I saw her floating in the forest.

[Anduin]

16 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And in this one you had Rey spending all that effort to climb the tower thing on the Death Star when like an hour hand a half earlier I saw her floating in the forest.

Amusingly, her clothes never get dirty during all her efforts. I wonder if TIEs and X-Wings have washing machines built in.

[MisterGlass]

34 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Amusingly, her clothes never get dirty during all her efforts. I wonder if TIEs and X-Wings have washing machines built in.

I just had this image of a washing machine droid following the heroes around.

[Anduin]

39 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

I just had this image of a washing machine droid following the heroes around.

Sure, let's go with that!

[Zuleikha]

Maybe I'm accidentally fanwanking, but I swear the floating thing is something that can only be done for short distances and while meditating. Jedi have always been portrayed as able to float and to use the Force as a booster for jumps, but not to be able to fly as such.