Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[Zuleikha]

Someone did the math, and apparently Kelly Marie Tran had only one minute and sixteen seconds of screentime. That's appalling.

I don't think it is. I'm sure if we compared Maz Kanata's screentime in the first movie to her screentime in the second and third, it would be a huge drop. Jannah was significant, interesting, and important in the third movie but wasn't even around in the first and second. Hux was a major villain in first and second and probably also had around a minute's worth of total screentime in the third.

Rose's character had an important role for the second movie just as Maz Kanata had an important role for the first movie and Jannah had a role for the third. Some characters are one movie characters. I think the only reason anyone notices Rose's absence is because of all the meta stuff with Kelly Marie Tran. I know for me there was never a moment where I thought "wow! This scene would have been better if Rose were here."
 

[Perfect Xero]

The mask is symbolic for Ren. He wears it in TFA to try to project the power and control he thought Vader had even though he was an emotional mess who lost control pretty easily throughout the film.

In TLJ he smashes it because Snoke called it childish, so he decided he was going to kill Snoke and take over TFO for himself and be his own evil man. He ends up in charge of TFO, but is still reduced to a screaming child by Luke at the end.

In ROS he rebuilds the mask after finding Sidious because he realizes that he's had control of TFO/Sith taken away from him. Much like Vader's mask is actually a prison for Anakin, Ben is being put back into a prison of his own making by the return of Palpatine.

RoS is Ben Solo finally learning that the power of the dark side is toxic and destructive and it isn't the path to control that he thought it was, it's always controlling him and using him. Kylo Ren then has to die so Ben Solo can toss aside the mask (and the lightsabre) for the right reasons and rebuild himself.

[ShadowHunter]

R2-D2 watched Leia being born into the world and he watched her leave it. 

Chewie's reaction to her death was tough to see as well. 

[VCRTracking]

Ben calling Han "Dad" makes me cry every time.

I love that Dominic Monaghan was hired solely to say exposition. JJ: "The audience will trust Merry/Charlie from LOST!"

 

[Ravenya003]

4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Rose's character had an important role for the second movie just as Maz Kanata had an important role for the first movie and Jannah had a role for the third. Some characters are one movie characters. I think the only reason anyone notices Rose's absence is because of all the meta stuff with Kelly Marie Tran. I know for me there was never a moment where I thought "wow! This scene would have been better if Rose were here."

Maybe, but it's not going to stop the trolls from assuming it was down to their influence that she was so minimized, and it does feel like her role was cut short. 

I mean, there is nothing whatsoever on the fact that Rose kissed Finn at the end of TLJ. Granted, I thought it was weird and random, and Finn definitely wasn't into it, but it still happened, and the fact nothing was said of it here suggests JJ just wanted to forget it ever happened at all.

Was this scene even included?

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Ravenya003

[Chyromaniac]

So in the beginning, I keep hearing Poe and Finn call the slug guy “Claude” and the horned guy “Julio”- both of which seem like odd choices for Star Wars aliens.  It appears that sluggo actually is “Klaud,” but horn dude is “Boolio”- I don’t know if those names make any more sense.

[VCRTracking]

A lot of problems could have been avoided if they had had Han killed by Phasma and her killed by Rey in TFA. More people would want Kylo Ren's redemption instead of death, Rey would have her hero moment without being called a Mary Sue and Phasma would no longer be considered a wasted character.

 

[katha]

OTOH, Han's death felt like one of the few times when the trilogy actually went for the bolder option and not for the easily reversable plastic stuff. And in consequence, IMO Kylo Ren/Ben Solo was one of the most interesting characters in all the Star Wars movies (yes, all nine). Exactly because he didn't follow all the stereotypical villain beats and stayed conflicted and wavering throughout. How much controversy and discussion in the fandom(s) circles around him also really confirms that IMO, both the passionate support (and I don't want to condescend to fans and say they are gullible and stupid for liking villain characters. Mostly, they see an interesting character, probably. And IMO this is mostly done to fandoms that have a high ratio of female members: "Oh, look at these silly girls, liking what is bad for them." You can like something in fiction and be able to separate that from reality.), and the antagonism towards him.

And I looooved that the first time we saw a really confident version of that character, it was Ben Solo. Which was exactly right. Because Kylo Ren was hiding behind masks/being imprisoned by his own bad choices and forces manipulating him. And I liked that they went for the kiss (and agree that it was pretty daring/controversial in a Disney-set-up), because it just showed what might have been. If Kylo Ren/Ben Solo made different choices (you know, less mass murder...). So in that aspect it was perhaps a bit sad for the shippers, but whatever. And Ben knew that there was nothing more for him than sacrifice/death. He was surprised and ecstatic that he even got as much of a confirmation from Rey as the kiss. So I don't know why the shippers can't take their cues from his character. And now they can go and write three million fanfics where they can "fix" that ending. Again, I don't understand the fandom in that instance. Did they think he would skip into the sunset for his happily ever after? What?

[VCRTracking]

42 minutes ago, katha said:

OTOH, Han's death felt like one of the few times when the trilogy actually went for the bolder option and not for the easily reversable plastic stuff. And in consequence, IMO Kylo Ren/Ben Solo was one of the most interesting characters in all the Star Wars movies (yes, all nine). Exactly because he didn't follow all the stereotypical villain beats and stayed conflicted and wavering throughout. How much controversy and discussion in the fandom(s) circles around him also really confirms that IMO, both the passionate support (and I don't want to condescend to fans and say they are gullible and stupid for liking villain characters. Mostly, they see an interesting character, probably. And IMO this is mostly done to fandoms that have a high ratio of female members: "Oh, look at these silly girls, liking what is bad for them." You can like something in fiction and be able to separate that from reality.), and the antagonism towards him.

And I looooved that the first time we saw a really confident version of that character, it was Ben Solo. Which was exactly right. Because Kylo Ren was hiding behind masks/being imprisoned by his own bad choices and forces manipulating him. And I liked that they went for the kiss (and agree that it was pretty daring/controversial in a Disney-set-up), because it just showed what might have been. If Kylo Ren/Ben Solo made different choices (you know, less mass murder...). So in that aspect it was perhaps a bit sad for the shippers, but whatever. And Ben knew that there was nothing more for him than sacrifice/death. He was surprised and ecstatic that he even got as much of a confirmation from Rey as the kiss. So I don't know why the shippers can't take their cues from his character. And now they can go and write three million fanfics where they can "fix" that ending. Again, I don't understand the fandom in that instance. Did they think he would skip into the sunset for his happily ever after? What?

Yeah I think realistically it was the best someone who shipped Reylo could hope for. He went from Cal to Jack Dawson in one movie! It is funny seeing reactions from people actually shocked by the kiss. There was clearly an attraction shown starting in TLJ, much to some Rey fans annoyance.

Edited December 27, 2019 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

I agree, keeping a redeemed Ben Solo around would have been very interesting storywise.

We never get any information about why Ben would so driven to the dark side.  As pointed out, if Palpatine had been in his head from the beginning, that at least would have explained a lot.  In the novel Bloodlines, we learn that Leia planned on telling Ben one day about his grandfather's true identity but inexplicably she STILL hadn't told him by the time he was 23 and had long begun training as a Jedi.  The fall of Anakin Skywalker should be required knowledge for every potential Jedi, a "sacred straight" for them.

This is another reason why I think Anakin's Force ghost really needed to appear at some point but JJ apparently curls up like a ball when it comes to the prequel trilogies.  Wouldn't the ghost of Ankain try to appear to Ben to warn him off of the path he was taking or even reach out to Luke or Rey?

Edited December 27, 2019 by benteen

[VCRTracking]

While there are valid criticisms against TROS there are some that are dumb. Like I actually heard some people on Twitter say Rey finding out she's Palpatine's granddaughter wouldn't mean much to her because she wouldn't know who that is. ??? She heard of Luke, Han and Darth Vader but not Palpatine, who was Emperor of the freaking Galaxy? In the real world it's like finding out Hitler is your grandpa!

Edited December 27, 2019 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

Seriously, how powerful would a scene be of Ghost Anakin coming to terms with how seriously he had screwed up his life and the consequences it had for the people of the galaxy, particularly those he loved?

[Jediknight]

What human has been in the most Skywalker Saga movies?  Obi-Wan Kenobi.  He spoke to Rey when she touched Luke/Anakin's lightsaber, and spoke to her during the battle against Palpatine.  It's not just the Skywalker Saga, it's also Obi-Wan's legacy.  Without Obi-Wan, Anakin and Luke never become Jedi.  I love that JJ made sure to put him in his 2 movies, even if it's just his voice.

You gotta love that it wasn't Rey, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Luke, or Mace who defeated Palpatine.  It was all the Jedi.  Palpatine thought the Jedi were no more, he thought he could stomp any hope of them coming back.  He was wrong, like Luke told him, his overconfidence was his weakness.  And while Palpatine thought that Luke's faith in his friends was his weakness, Luke's faith in his friends, father, and the Force, was Palpatine's downfall in Return.  And Rey's faith in the Force and Jedi of the past, was Palpatine's ultimate downfall.  What Palpatine thought was a weakness, was his opponents' biggest strength.

[Bill1978]

This is pretty cool. An article from 3 years ago that predicted Rey was a Palpatine

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-bizarre-star-wars-theory-palpatine-_b_9617828

 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Bill1978 said:

This is pretty cool. An article from 3 years ago that predicted Rey was a Palpatine

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-bizarre-star-wars-theory-palpatine-_b_9617828

 

It's still stupid.

[Blergh]

7 hours ago, Anduin said:

It's still stupid.

And infuriating IMO but then consider the source. . .

Edited December 28, 2019 by Blergh

[VCRTracking]

I know people complain about the fan pandering I audibly cheered seeing Wedge Antilles again. They must have paid Denis Lawson a LOT just for those 5 seconds!
 

Edited December 28, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Aliferously]

Going to do a shallow review because this was just a fun movie for me, my last one in 2019. 

- I didn't feel Carrie Fisher needed to be there as much as she was. I don't know how they CGI'ed 15 or so minutes of footage of her into the movie, but I felt a strange sort of relief when Leia died. Call it closure.

-Poor Rose. I mostly feel for the actress because she had such a big part in the second movie and almost nothing to do here. Nothing about her relationship with Finn or how it might have panned out. 

- I would watch a television series about the adventures of Rey and Poe and Finn. Just take my money already.

-None of the villains were really that villainy, other then Palatine.

-Maybe the Star Wars universe has a different moral code, but I found the Kylo/Rey kiss the most wtf thing in the entire movie. Also, people ship them? Because about ten minutes before, Rey found out he was her cousin. The guy sitting next to me in the theatre found this amusing, I said wtf out loud. It seemed kind of pointless.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Aliferously

[VCRTracking]

26 minutes ago, Aliferously said:

Going to do a shallow review because this was just a fun movie for me, my last one in 2019. 

- I didn't feel Carrie Fisher needed to be there as much as she was. I don't know how they CGI'ed 15 or so minutes of footage of her into the movie, but I felt a strange sort of relief when Leia died. Call it closure.

-Poor Rose. I mostly feel for the actress because she had such a big part in the second movie and almost nothing to do here. Nothing about her relationship with Finn or how it might have panned out. 

- I would watch a television series about the adventures of Rey and Poe and Finn. Just take my money already.

-None of the villains were really that villainy, other then Palatine.

-Maybe the Star Wars universe has a different moral code, but I found the Kylo/Rey kiss the most wtf thing in the entire movie. Also, people ship them? Because about ten minutes before, Rey found out he was her cousin. The guy sitting next to me in the theatre found this amusing, I said wtf out loud. It seemed kind of pointless.

Kylo is NOT her cousin.  I think there's some canon comic recently that implies Palpatine was behind Anakin's virgin birth but I really prefer the notion that the Force brought him into being. It's what Lucas has said publicly. All the Rey/Kylo closeness was in TLJ but people either didn't want to see it or outright hated it.

Quote

Also, people ship them?

Oh boy, do they...

[Aliferously]

People are weird.

[VCRTracking]

I get the attitude from male fans but when I see some older women judging fangirls I think of:

 

[greekmom]

Finally saw it at a 4D theater in Toronto.  I have to say that the 4D actually made it more enjoyable that if I saw it at a regular theater.

I agree with the posters above that Anikan's force ghost would have been perfect.

I just didn't like the lines like "I would have taken Ben's hand" it's the same fucking hand!  But in the end, it would have been a better ending for both Ben and Rey to end up on Lar's farm in Tatoonie instead of Rey alone.  I feel cheated with the love story.

And it still bothers me that she took the name of Skywalker.  She's not a Skywalker.  At best if she married Ben she would have been a Solo by marriage.

Damn you Abrams. You really suck.

[Bill1978]

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I know people complain about the fan pandering I audibly cheered seeing Wedge Antilles again. They must have paid Denis Lawson a LOT just for those 5 seconds!

I grinned like an idiot when the 2 ewoks popped up on the screen. I was not expecting to see them at all, even though the movie was visting the Endor system.

I know the movie has lots of unanswered questions and mostly I can tune them out. But the one question that has stuck with me since seeing the movie was: Who were all the people sitting in the 'stadium' of Palpatine's lair?

And while I'm asking questions. As a person whose knowledge/lore of the Star Wars universe is based solely on the movies the use of the word Sith is an acknowledgment of the Prequel Trilogy right? The word sith was never used in the Original Trilogy was it?

[Anduin]

20 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

I grinned like an idiot when the 2 ewoks popped up on the screen. I was not expecting to see them at all, even though the movie was visting the Endor system.

I know the movie has lots of unanswered questions and mostly I can tune them out. But the one question that has stuck with me since seeing the movie was: Who were all the people sitting in the 'stadium' of Palpatine's lair?

And while I'm asking questions. As a person whose knowledge/lore of the Star Wars universe is based solely on the movies the use of the word Sith is an acknowledgment of the Prequel Trilogy right? The word sith was never used in the Original Trilogy was it?

That was Warwick Davis as Wicket again! The other Ewok was Wicket's son, played by Warwick Davis' son. 🙂

They were the Nazgul. Buy one hobbit, get several Nazgul cheap. Serious answer, I dunno. If Wookieepedia has an answer, I can't find it. Some kind of Sith cultists?

Sith is never spoken in the OT, but the title Dark Lord of the Sith is applied to Vader sometime in the early 90s or before. Must be one of Lucas' ideas he didn't actually flesh out on screen, or had sometime between the trilogies.

[VCRTracking]

9 minutes ago, Anduin said:

That was Warwick Davis as Wicket again! The other Ewok was Wicket's son, played by Warwick Davis' son. 🙂

They were the Nazgul. Buy one hobbit, get several Nazgul cheap. Serious answer, I dunno. If Wookieepedia has an answer, I can't find it. Some kind of Sith cultists?

Sith is never spoken in the OT, but the title Dark Lord of the Sith is applied to Vader sometime in the early 90s or before. Must be one of Lucas' ideas he didn't actually flesh out on screen, or had sometime between the trilogies.

I saw a video on YouTube of deleted footage from A New Hope shown at a fan celebration from the Death Star conference scene where one of the Imperial officers are complaining about Darth Vader being around, referring to him a "Dark Lord of the Sith". It was just before the part movie where he says "The Rebels are too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize." It was neat seeing the word "Sith" said aloud in one of the older movies.

Edited December 29, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Anduin]

16 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I saw a video on YouTube of deleted footage from A New Hope shown at a fan celebration from the Death Star conference scene where one of the Imperial officers are complaining about Darth Vader being around, referring to him a "Dark Lord of the Sith". It was just before the part movie where he says "The Rebels are too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize." It was neat seeing the word "Sith" said aloud in one of the older movies.

So it was in Lucas' head all the way back in the 70s? Interesting. Good find!

[Zuleikha]

Who were all the people sitting in the 'stadium' of Palpatine's lair?

I have no idea what the canon explanation is, but when I was watching it, they seemed to me like the spirits of former Sith lords. They just didn't feel like actual living, present beings to me.

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

Sith is never spoken in the OT, but the title Dark Lord of the Sith is applied to Vader sometime in the early 90s or before. Must be one of Lucas' ideas he didn't actually flesh out on screen, or had sometime between the trilogies.

A Wikipedia page says it appears in a 1974 rough draft of the screenplay as well as in the novelization of the 1977 Star Wars. I knew it had to have been in use before the '90s, because when I was a kid, I knew his title was "Dark Lord of the Sith," even though I didn't know exactly what it meant. It may have been in other novelizations of that trilogy, and possibly other tie-in merchandise of that era (e.g., comic books, trading cards). 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

A Wikipedia page says it appears in a 1974 rough draft of the screenplay as well as in the novelization of the 1977 Star Wars. I knew it had to have been in use before the '90s, because when I was a kid, I knew his title was "Dark Lord of the Sith," even though I didn't know exactly what it meant. It may have been in other novelizations of that trilogy, and possibly other tie-in merchandise of that era (e.g., comic books, trading cards). 

Thanks! So there you go, Bill. Sith is one of Lucas' things right from the start.

[Hiyo]

It was better than The Last Jedi, but still kind of...meh. It was average, I would say.

[Captain Carrot]

13 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I saw a video on YouTube of deleted footage from A New Hope shown at a fan celebration from the Death Star conference scene where one of the Imperial officers are complaining about Darth Vader being around, referring to him a "Dark Lord of the Sith". It was just before the part movie where he says "The Rebels are too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize." It was neat seeing the word "Sith" said aloud in one of the older movies.

I have the annotated 'Heir to the Empire'. In it he noted that he used the term Dark Jedi because Lucasfilm wouldn't confirm if the Sith were a race or Jedi's that went to the dark side. (Zahn had been considering naming the alien race that became the Noghri the Sith).

I don't know if Lucas wasn't sure who the Sith were at that point, if he didn't like Zahn's idea, or if he wanted to hold the reveal for the prequels.

[Danny Franks]

21 hours ago, greekmom said:

Finally saw it at a 4D theater in Toronto.  I have to say that the 4D actually made it more enjoyable that if I saw it at a regular theater.

I agree with the posters above that Anikan's force ghost would have been perfect.

I just didn't like the lines like "I would have taken Ben's hand" it's the same fucking hand!  But in the end, it would have been a better ending for both Ben and Rey to end up on Lar's farm in Tatoonie instead of Rey alone.  I feel cheated with the love story.

And it still bothers me that she took the name of Skywalker.  She's not a Skywalker.  At best if she married Ben she would have been a Solo by marriage.

Damn you Abrams. You really suck.

I feel cheated that they tried to push that twisted, unhealthy, obsessive idea of a "romance" on me. Rey would have taken Ben's hand? She had absolutely no idea what he was like, before he fell to the Dark side.

It seemed like Abrams didn't want to honour that, unless him writing Kylo Ren as a creepy stalker who wouldn't leave Rey alone was spectacularly tone deaf. I'm choosing to believe that the kiss was Disney mandated, because they felt like they needed to appease the shippers.

[Anduin]

Chris Terrio talks about Rose's screen time.

Quote

Well, first of all, J.J. and I adore Kelly Marie Tran. One of the reasons that Rose has a few less scenes than we would like her to have has to do with the difficulty of using Carrie’s footage in the way we wanted to. We wanted Rose to be the anchor at the rebel base who was with Leia. We thought we couldn’t leave Leia at the base without any of the principals who we love, so Leia and Rose were working together. As the process evolved, a few scenes we’d written with Rose and Leia turned out to not meet the standard of photorealism that we’d hoped for. Those scenes unfortunately fell out of the film. The last thing we were doing was deliberately trying to sideline Rose. We adore the character, and we adore Kelly – so much so that we anchored her with our favorite person in this galaxy, General Leia.

IO9 has a good bit on what's wrong with this.

Quote

This explanation makes sense, but it still betrays a lack of consideration of Rose’s role in the film. In a situation where a character’s place in the franchise has been widely heralded as a win for diversity and touted by Disney as the beginning of a new era for the series, it seems more than a little ill advised to stake that character’s appearance in the film almost entirely on untested effects technology. Especially when that character’s absence, then, feels so much like validation for all the worst parts of fandom.

It also doesn't mention why she had so little to do in the big battle at the end.

In some ways, I get it. Rose wasn't a frontline fighter in TLJ, she was just roped into action because she was useful. I can imagine she wouldn't want to go out adventuring again, stay as part of the support staff. But it just didn't come off that way in the movie. She had to stay and do her homework.

[VCRTracking]

I mean Al/Carl Winslow only had a glorified cameo in DIE HARD 2! Even after he redeemed himself for accidentally killing that kid with a toy gun!

I find it ironic that the same fans who thought Ben should have lived and forgiven despite everything he did also think Rey is forever ruined because she's related to Palpatine.

[Anduin]

29 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I find it ironic that the same fans who thought Ben should have lived and forgiven despite everything he did also think Rey is forever ruined because she's related to Palpatine.

People think that? Both, I mean. I'm fine that Ben died. And while I don't like Rey Palpatine, I accept it. Not where I'd have gone, but I'll tolerate it. Let's just not have another retcon in ten years.

[Lantern7]

This is it, right? I mean, no more trilogies. I saw it tonight, and I thought it was okay, but reading reactions makes me think we might have been better off with only Episodes IV-VI. The prequels were basically stuff found in George Lucas's old drawers, and the revelation that the man that would become Darth Vader was a humongous bitch. The sequels are basically a giant dick fight between two directors, and we might have to wait 25 years for technology to evolve to a point where VIII-IX are re-edited into something everyone would love. Like, either Rose gets blown to shit in the first few minutes of TROS, or she's at Finn's side the entire time and they wind up married with kids on a farm in one of the spots on Tatoonie that doesn't suck. Their next door neighborhood would be a reformed Boba Fett, who escaped the Sarlacc Pit.

Honestly, my thought now is "Where's the Snyder Cut?" And I did have fun watching TROS. But I have to question whether we need a main source. I don't have Disney+, but I'm thinking more people dig The Mandolorian a lot more.

Rey is/was a Palpatine. Okay, then. She was the Emperor's granddaughter. Of course she is. I mean, we now understand how Rey struggled between nature and nurture (or at least the training with Luke), but that felt like a butt-pull. So were those her adoptive parents that were killed? I . . . see, I should stop now, because the more I want to know stuff, the more I know there will never be a satisfactory answer.

Kylo Ren? Still a bitch. I mean, he did find peace in Rey's arms, but then I realize that could be seen as a "cover" version of his grandfather. And Adam Driver is still a weird-looking dude. At least he got one guilt-ridden scene with his dad. Goodness knows how JJ got Harrison back for that scene.

Did I mention I had fun? Because I did, and I'm not saying that as a defense mechanism. The action was good, I got to see familiar faces (even if a few looked like they bit the big one; I went in thinking Chewbacca was a goner because people were bracing for the death of C3P0), and Poe and Finn might be the best pair of buddies in the franchise. Are they gay? Straight? Going into a three-way relationship with Rey that isn't uncommon in that universe? Who cares?!? Let's just leave it alone, walk out of the room, and not step on all of the toys that could have been used in a better fashion. And if the movie is still going strong in a few weeks, I'll make this sketch of Rey I got in 2016 my avatar.

"Star Wars: The New Trilogy . . . we got three movies out in the span of five years instead of seven. Could you be grateful for that?!?"

[Zuleikha]

It also doesn't mention why she had so little to do in the big battle at the end.

She's a mechanic. Why would she have anything to do in the big battle?

This is why I hate the Rose-got-sidelined-so-toxic-fandom-wins kvetching. The only argument for more Rose that people are giving is because she's the first major female Asian character and her absence "lets" toxic fans win. That's a meta argument, not a narrative-based argument. It also contributes to the sense of Star Wars as a cultural battlezone that the same people generally decry. 

[Perfect Xero]

Rose in TLJ delivers the message that they will win, not by fighting what they hate, but by saving what they love.

Positioning her as, essentially, the right hand to Leia as she reaches out to and saves her son was probably an attempt to be true to her character from TLJ.

There are things that could have been done to include her more in the last battle, but she's also a character whose defining moment in the previous film was rejecting the idea of fighting your enemies even as their enemies were on the verge of killing them all.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Rose in TLJ delivers the message that they will win, not by fighting what they hate, but by saving what they love.

Positioning her as, essentially, the right hand to Leia as she reaches out to and saves her son was probably an attempt to be true to her character from TLJ.

There are things that could have been done to include her more in the last battle, but she's also a character whose defining moment in the previous film was rejecting the idea of fighting your enemies even as their enemies were on the verge of killing them all.

I see what you mean, but JJ walked that back by having the Resistance go on the offensive. If he's going to do that, then why not have her more involved in the big fight?

[Sakura12]

9 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Rey is/was a Palpatine. Okay, then. She was the Emperor's granddaughter. Of course she is. I mean, we now understand how Rey struggled between nature and nurture (or at least the training with Luke), but that felt like a butt-pull. So were those her adoptive parents that were killed? I . . . see, I should stop now, because the more I want to know stuff, the more I know there will never be a satisfactory answer

Rey's dad was Palpatine's son. I'm assuming he had no force powers so Palps didn't care about him until he had a daughter with strong force powers. 

[absnow54]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:51 PM, greekmom said:

And it still bothers me that she took the name of Skywalker.  She's not a Skywalker.  At best if she married Ben she would have been a Solo by marriage.

Rey didn’t take the name Skywalker because of Ben. She took it because of Luke and Leia’s training and her intention to carry on their legacy. 

[benteen]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:26 PM, Anduin said:

That was Warwick Davis as Wicket again! The other Ewok was Wicket's son, played by Warwick Davis' son.

I was happy to see Wicket.  I actually briefly thought the other Ewok was Wicket's Princess friend from the old Ewok cartoon series (I didn't get a good look at the other one when I first saw it) which would have been a REAL deep dive into the old EU's toy box.

Vader is referred to as "Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith" in the ANH screenplay and novelization.  George Lucas has a strange habit of not mentioning names in his Star Wars movies.  The word Sith is never mentioned in the original trilogy.  The Emperor is never called Palpatine in the original trilogy.  Leia's last name of Organa is never mentioned in the original trilogy.  Boba Fett is never referred to by name in ESB (his name is mentioned twice in a deleted scene though).  Mon Mothma is never referred to by name in her brief ROTJ appearance (hell, her name isn't mentioned in Rogue One!).  Here is the marketing genius of George Lucas though...everyone knew the names "Wicket" and "Ewoks" despite the fact that neither name is ever mentioned in Return of the Jedi.

I like Kelly Marie Tran and hate how she was treated by a toxic element of so-called fans.  But I personally didn't find the Rose character that interesting.  If there was a list of 20 characters that I wanted to see more of, she wouldn't have been on that list.  Even if you added another 20 names.  I don't think anyone involved wants to say that.  I don't think it had anything to do with the toxic so-called fanboys.  The only thing that bothers me is those losers will likely take credit for another pathetic "victory" from it.

Edited December 30, 2019 by benteen

[Minneapple]

On 12/28/2019 at 5:05 PM, VCRTracking said:

Oh boy, do they...

Hey, that fanart is cute! The person who drew it is talented! And I would be more shocked if there was nobody shipping Ben/Rey. Even if they were cousins I would be shocked if nobody was shipping them. People ship the Winchesters from Supernatural! 

I try not to judge shippers and fangirls/boys, but man, people are crazy. Like I read an essay the other day by a fan who said that Star Wars and JJ Abrams had done a great disservice to mentally ill people by killing off Ben. And I tried not to laugh at the essay because I'm sorry that person is mentally ill, but oh dear Lord. 

I went into the movie expecting Ben to die. Star Wars is classic storytelling; they ain't breaking ground with narratives. It's pretty trope-y, good guys win, bad guys lose, people will sacrifice themselves along the way, there will be romance, etc. Ben may be redeemable, but the mass slaughter and the killing of his father would always make his character a bit of a mess in that department. So the only way to really deal with the character is to kill him off after his big redemptive moment, and that is pretty classic storytelling. It is in fact pretty similar to Darth Vader.

A scene on Tatooine at the end where his Force-ghost appears with Leia and Luke may have appeased the fans. A bit. Maybe. Anakin could have been there too. A whole Force Family. 

[VCRTracking]

https://twitter.com/3rd_Option/status/1211685733259304960

Actually that's what I thought happened, Leia gave her life to bring her son Ben back. I think that's beautiful and the right way for Leia to go out. Just as I'm perplexed at people who didn't see the Reylo connection in THE LAST JEDI, I'm equally puzzled by those who didn't understand Kylo Ren chose to go further into dark side when he had the chance to leave and Rey literally closed the door on him. Kylo couldn't go back to the light on his own. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by VCRTracking

[katha]

30 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

https://twitter.com/3rd_Option/status/1211685733259304960

Actually that's what I thought happened, Leia gave her life to bring her son Ben back. I think that's beautiful and the right way for Leia to go out. Just as I'm perplexed at people who didn't see the Reylo connection in THE LAST JEDI, I'm equally puzzled by those who didn't understand Kylo Ren chose to go further into dark side when he had the chance to leave and Rey literally closed the door on him. Kylo couldn't go back to the light on his own. 

Yeah.... And, people griping about Kylo/Ben not having choices. We saw that character make choices throughout the trilogy. I'd argue he was the one who was obviously and convincingly struggling with decisions throughout the films. That's what made him interesting. Often, they were terrible choices. Sometimes, they were good ones.

Like, he's in agony when he decides to kill his father. And I like something that Abrams said, that Kylo immediately regrets killing Han. Because he thinks that at some point he'll just...snap...turn dark and be numb and not hurt anymore. But he keeps on struggling. He's wavering in TLJ (he can't go through with attacking a ship Leia is on, do I remember that right?), then he doubles down on evil. And Leia reaching out to him in TROS...he could have turned away from that as well. He showed in TFA that he's able to repel/murder his parents...

And yeah, I liked that a mix of Han, Leia and Rey believing in Ben finally got through to him. Because, rightly or wrongly, he perceived himself as abandoned IMO and that just wasn't the case. So yeah. There's a lot half-baked nonsense in TROS, IMO almost nothing about Rylo/Ben belongs in that category. There's a reason most of the reviews praise that aspect (and Driver's performance), it's coherent and works.

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Rey didn’t take the name Skywalker because of Ben. She took it because of Luke and Leia’s training and her intention to carry on their legacy. 

Yep. It was clear that Kylo Ren didn't figure at all in her decision to take the name Skywalker (and Abrams reiterated that by not having his smiling Force Ghost appear alongside the two people Rey actually wanted to honour). She had two mentors - Luke and Leia - and thankfully, they were able to repurpose enough footage with Carrie Fisher to create that storyline, and show a real connection between Rey and Leia.

I really liked that aspect of the movie, because it showed genuine growth in Rey. She went to find Luke in TLJ to try and get him to be the hero of the Rebellion (she then tried to appeal to Kylo Ren, because she thought maybe he could be the hero). But by the time this movie takes place, she's accepted that she is the hero, and Leia is mentoring her, as another woman who understands what it's like to have the weight of the galaxy on her shoulders.

My only real issue with the movie continues to be the hedging that was done with Rey and Kylo Ren. Disney knew about the fangirls, and knew that rejecting this 'ship, even though it was incredibly distasteful, would cause yet another backlash. I guess it's understandable that they wanted to mitigate that, after already having the toxic, white male demographic vomit their bile all over the place, and the people who weren't happy with other aspects of the TLJ, in particular, do their best to craft a narrative that the movie was terrible.

Abrams should have had the courage to say 'no, Rey closed the door on this notion at the end of TLJ. She outright rejected Kylo Ren.' That's what Rian Johnson set up, and while I didn't like the fuel he gave the shippers leading up to that, I felt he made the right choice to represent Kylo Ren as a Nice Guy, trying to gaslight Rey into joining him.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Danny Franks

[greekmom]

4 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Rey didn’t take the name Skywalker because of Ben. She took it because of Luke and Leia’s training and her intention to carry on their legacy. 

Oh I didn't mean she took the name Skywalker because of Ben.  Just bothered me she took the name overall.  But if Ben lived and she married him then she would have been a Solo by marriage.  I am really disappointed in the ending. I was hoping redemption for Ben and having Rey and Ben live at the old homestead with Han, Leia and Luke looking on in the end. 

[Danny Franks]

25 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Oh I didn't mean she took the name Skywalker because of Ben.  Just bothered me she took the name overall.  But if Ben lived and she married him then she would have been a Solo by marriage.  I am really disappointed in the ending. I was hoping redemption for Ben and having Rey and Ben live at the old homestead with Han, Leia and Luke looking on in the end. 

He killed his father and caused the deaths of his uncle and his mother, all while leading a fascist order that destroyed several planets. He doesn't get to live happily ever after, even if it's on a Tatooine moisture farm.

One thing Star Wars has always been clear on is, you may have a moment of redemption, but you still have to pay the price for what you've done.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Sakura12]

I didn't mind Rey taking the name of the people that trained her and guided her. They helped her see who she really was. As Luke told her blood doesn't make you family. Luke, Leia, Finn and Poe are her family. I love that she's honoring everything they did by taking their name.

[benteen]

Exactly.  They became her family and she honored them by taking their name.  Ben gave up his life force to bring her back so he is kind of a born again Skywalker (or Solo) when you think about it.

I guess too it's a little like Ancient Rome where Caesar's would adopt their heirs, even if they weren't blood.  Luke and Leia didn't do that here but it's kind of what it reminded me of.