S08.E01: Winterfell

[Constantinople]

16 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I honestly think she is trying to make Jon fail so that she will look good.

They're all in this together.

If Jon fails, they all fail and Sansa and everyone else is dead

I don't think Sansa has a death wish or that she'd be willing to sacrifice everyone's life and safety to make Jon fail

Edited April 17, 2019 by Constantinople

[Smad]

So if according to Jon titles are meaningless now, why does he insist on Dany being Queen and treated as such? Do titles now only not matter for anyone but Dany? He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title? And Dany is acting as Queen and expects to be treated as such. Does that mean she hasn't gotten the 'titles don't matter speech' from Jon?

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title?

He wants everyone in the North to forget his title.  

He wants them to forget him as King In The North- because he bent the knee to Daenerys.  It's over.  He did it already.  They gave him the power to do so when they named him KitN, and he made a decision that he felt was best for his people. 

[MarySNJ]

4 minutes ago, Smad said:

So if according to Jon titles are meaningless now, why does he insist on Dany being Queen and treated as such? Do titles now only not matter for anyone but Dany? He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title? And Dany is acting as Queen and expects to be treated as such. Does that mean she hasn't gotten the 'titles don't matter speech' from Jon?

I don’t think he expects everyone to forget titles, he’s just making the case that he was willing to give up HIS title as the price for Dany’s army and dragons that they need to fight the army of undead zombies and White Walkers bearing down on the North. 

Titles of the living wont matter if the living are killed and become slaves in the Night King’s army. 

[BitterApple]

Just now, Smad said:

So if according to Jon titles are meaningless now, why does he insist on Dany being Queen and treated as such? Do titles now only not matter for anyone but Dany? He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title? And Dany is acting as Queen and expects to be treated as such. Does that mean she hasn't gotten the 'titles don't matter speech' from Jon?

I understand the context in which Jon said it, but yeah, titles are absolutely everything in this world. We've spent the last 8 years watching these people fight, claw and maneuver themselves into power positions. When a son fucks up, what's the first thing that happens? He's forced to surrender his title and lands. We saw it with Sam, Jorah and Laurus, we also saw Tywin's displeasure with Jaime for refusing to take his place as Lord of Casterly Rock. 

But here's what I don't get: Bran can see everything right? So assuming he communicates with Jon, why the hell aren't they laying facts on the table and telling the Northern Houses, "Hey, you want to squabble about titles? Well, the Night King has 100,000 soldiers, giants, mammoths and a big ass dragon. Shall we prioritize?." It's mind-numbingly frustrating the way these people talk only in vague references.

[GodsBeloved]

36 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

See also also...... I have a question:  How many people would really be backing and supporting Sansa, if she had not been raped and beaten? While being raped and abused is traumatic, does that excuse her behavior before and after it happened? Does that excuse her behavior with Jon?  

I like Sansa. I'm rooting for her so I support/back her though I don't agree with or excuse everything she does.

Bad behavior isn't excused for anybody, including Sansa. I do understand though the reasons some posters have listed to explain why she behaves the way she does. 

[Advance35]

Quote

So if according to Jon titles are meaningless now, why does he insist on Dany being Queen and treated as such? Do titles now only not matter for anyone but Dany? He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title? And Dany is acting as Queen and expects to be treated as such. Does that mean she hasn't gotten the 'titles don't matter speech' from Jon?

Interesting and warranted query.  

It does look like there is one set of rules for Sansa/The North, and another set for Dany and her hanger-on's.

If nothing matters, what about that trite speech he gave Cersei when he was in Kings Landing, about how he cannot promise to stay out of fighting against the Lannisters when She and Dany duel for control of the Iron Throne, because he had "pledged" himself already?

Jon is looking like the ultimate "Do as I say, Not as I do."

[GodsBeloved]

37 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Given Jon's general disregard for Sansa's opinions, I'm starting to wonder if he would have brushed that off, saying Littlefinger can't be trusted.

On Edit: But also, I think the writers were unable to come up with something that would notify Jon but not spoil the surprise for viewers

That whole mess with the Vale coming was all for drama and SURPRISE!!! and it was done very poorly.

[Constantinople]

12 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

But here's what I don't get: Bran can see everything right? So assuming he communicates with Jon, why the hell aren't they laying facts on the table and telling the Northern Houses, "Hey, you want to squabble about titles? Well, the Night King has 100,000 soldiers, giants, mammoths and a big ass dragon. Shall we prioritize?." It's mind-numbingly frustrating the way these people talk only in vague references.

Now I wish they could hook Bran up to a Jumbotron

But on a serious note, in another context when Daenerys was exchanging pleasantries with Sansa, Bran said We don't have time for all this. The Night King has your dragon. He's one of them now. The Wall has fallen, the dead march south.

And in any case, how many people would be willing to rely on Bran's visions?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Constantinople

[Wendy]

45 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Thank you! I'm so glad Im not the only one saying this.

When you do team building excercises at work, and they talk about problem solver the first thing they usually tell us is: Don't complain about a problem unless you already have a way to fix it.  Complaining about a problem, without a possible solution, is not helpful.

Thats all Sansa does, she complains but offers not real advice that everyone doesn't already know.  

I honestly think she is trying to make Jon fail so that she will look good.  I mean its not Jon's fault that there isn't enough food at at Winterfell to Host Dany and Co.....all the northern lords heard Jon say he was going to Dragonstone for dragon glass and allies. So she knew this was a possibility, and we all saw her telling Littlefinger about the raven Jon sent about him bending the knee.  I know the show likes to bend time a bit, and we're not supposed to bring up the books, but the trek by boat from KL to Wf was roughly 6 weeks and by foot about 2-3 months.  Jon sent that Raven from EastWatch.  That means she roughly had 3-4 months to plan for Dany......meaning its not Jon's fault if there isn't enough food.

See also also...... I have a question:  How many people would really be backing and supporting Sansa, if she had not been raped and beaten? While being raped and abused is traumatic, does that excuse her behavior before and after it happened? Does that excuse her behavior with Jon?  

I would still support her, matter of fact I like Sansa book much better than Sansa show and in the books she was nor raped or beaten. 

I like her for the simple fact that she is one of the few realistic characters that I can relate too.

I know I could never have dragons like Daenerys, I could never be a faceless man killer like Arya, I could never be brought back from the dead like Jon, I could never be the 3 eye raven like Bran, I could not be a fighter like Brienne, Ygritte, Yara or Val, I could not be an evil monster like Cersei, I could never be a sour drunk like Tyrion or have as many spies as Varys has. 

Sansa is just a regular person who was naive and romantic when she was young (like I was) and who through trials and tribulations has learned her lessons and has steeled her hearth but has also learned lessons that would carry her through. I can relate to that. I like Sansa because in this world of magic, fantasy and NKs and WWs she is the regular, average person with no extra powers who views her position (LOW) as a huge responsibility and she has raised to the challenge. She will not go to battle with a sword but she will be there to organize the aftermath of it, places for the injured, food and places to sleep for the survivors, etc.  The world needs Daenerys, Jon, Aryas, Briennes, but it also needs people like Sansa.   

[Shimmergloom]

On 4/15/2019 at 12:23 PM, Drumpf1737 said:

Sansa is the reason they have Winterfell back. Sansa killed the other bastard. Sansa instead of fighting Arya, had Arya kill Little Finger. 

There's some evidence.

Also, don't forget that from what we've seen and been told by Sansa, she's made sure to get as many people north of Winterfell to safety as possible and organized as much food to feed them through the winter(though we don't know if she planned on another "long night" or just a regular winter from recent history).  That's actually forward thinking.  Jon and Dany just showed up with the largest army in the world with no plan at all on how to feed them.

For all the talk of the Night King being the real threat, I think we're forgetting that WINTER is the biggest threat.  The Night King doesn't need to eat.  He can just let Winter do his dirty work for him if he wanted to. 

Now since the Night King is basically a cartoon villain I'm sure he'll just attack head on and nto show forward thinking, but that doesn't mean that Sansa hasn't shown intelligence in preparing for the winter.  It's just not super heroics and it seems like society in general doesn't value solid thinking over super heroics.

[GodsBeloved]

14 minutes ago, Drogo said:

He wants everyone in the North to forget his title.  

He wants them to forget him as King In The North- because he bent the knee to Daenerys.  It's over.  He did it already.  They gave him the power to do so when they named him KitN, and he made a decision that he felt was best for his people. 

How is Daenerys being over the North best for the North?

She already agreed to come and help. How is Jon being KITN and Daenerys being an ally to the North less than Daenerys being over them?

What does Daenerys being their Queen bring to the table right now that her being an ally doesn't? Jon says RIGHT NOW is what is important because of the immediate threat and I don't see how Daenerys being their Queen and Jon being whatever he is (and not what they chose him to be) right now is best for them right now.

If he wanted to hand over the North to her, Jon could have waited until after the immediate threat was over.

[terrymct]

I had a thought.  Two things were mentioned this episode.  Sansa asked if they have enough food and supplies for the newly arriving troops.   Dany mentioned that the dragons don't like the cold and aren't eating as they should.

Remember the idea of Chekov's gun?  If you place an element in a scene, you should use it.

Think of what happened when various armies tried to invade Russia.  The soldiers from warmer countries tried to fight but were handicapped by the weather.  The locals suffered with the weather but were able to withstand and do what needed to be done to defend.   

I'm wondering if the dragons and new troops won't be as much use as everyone hopes or needs.   The dragons could be sluggish and not willing to perform as needed.   The Unsullied and other southern troops could be under prepared or not as hardened to the weather.  

It might still come down to the Northerners and the Wildlings to win this thing.

Edited April 17, 2019 by terrymct
fixed a couple of typos

[Tyro49]

Maybe the NK will bypass Winterfell entirely and make straight for Kings Landing - more population, more potential recruits - then back to Winterfell!

[GodsBeloved]

35 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I don’t think he expects everyone to forget titles, he’s just making the case that he was willing to give up HIS title as the price for Dany’s army and dragons that they need to fight the army of undead zombies and White Walkers bearing down on the North. 

Titles of the living wont matter if the living are killed and become slaves in the Night King’s army. 

But that's the thing and why I say Jon straight up lied. That is not the price he had to pay because Daenarys had agreed to help before Jon gave up his title. What more did he get from Daenarys for giving up his title? Nothing.

I mean OK, he never wanted it and that's fine. He will either die or survive this upcoming battle. If he dies, the North can chose someone else. If he lives, he can tell him he doesn't want the title and they can chose someone else.

ETA: I just had a thought. I can see 1 reason why Jon thinks its best/he's saving for the North if he gave them over to Daenarys. If he believes she'd turn her Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons on them if they wanted what they have wanted when they chose him to be KITN which is independence. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Advance35]

Quote

I like her for the simple fact that she is one of the few realistic characters that I can relate too.

I know I could never have dragons like Daenerys, I could never be a faceless man killer like Arya, I could never be brought back from the dead like Jon, I could never be the 3 eye raven like Bran, I could not be a fighter like Brienne, Ygritte, Yara or Val, I could not be an evil monster like Cersei, I could never be a sour drunk like Tyrion or have as many spies as Varys has. 

Sansa is just a regular person who was naive and romantic when she was young (like I was) and who through trials and tribulations has learned her lessons and has steeled her hearth but has also learned lessons that would carry her through. I can relate to that. I like Sansa because in this world of magic, fantasy and NKs and WWs she is the regular, average person with no extra powers who views her position (LOW) as a huge responsibility and she has raised to the challenge. She will not go to battle with a sword but she will be there to organize the aftermath of it, places for the injured, food and places to sleep for the survivors, etc.  The world needs Daenerys, Jon, Aryas, Briennes, but it also needs people like Sansa.   

If I could heart a post more then once, I so would.

Sansa has played a role in some of the most jaw-dropping and intriguing plot twist in the whole saga.  And she's a HUMAN character.  Not immune to fire or exempt from death.  She's not hooked up to a mystical internet or a super secret society assassin.

She's a girl that grew up excelling at music, sewing, curtsying and most other characteristics High Born girls are groomed to Gold Metal in.

It's made her story far more gripping to me as a viewer. 

[Drogo]

31 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

She already agreed to come and help. How is Jon being KITN and Daenerys being an ally to the North less than Daenerys being over them? 

What does Daenerys being their Queen bring to the table right now that her being an ally doesn't? Jon says RIGHT NOW is what is important because of the immediate threat and I don't see how Daenerys being their Queen and Jon being whatever he is (and not what they chose him to be) right now is best for them right now.

For me, saying that Jon should have accepted Daenerys' help without bending the knee is like saying "My landscaper keeps mowing my lawn even though I haven't signed the contract agreeing to pay the bills.  He's the best landscaper I've found and I won't find anyone better to take care of my home.  I should really just let him keep mowing my lawn in perpetuity and not paying him, because I don't have to because I didn't sign the contract." 

Jon swearing fealty to Daenerys establishes a promise between them; he and his people are now her people. 

Jon has seen what Daenerys will do for her people.  She will not abandon them.  She will not leave them to die or be enslaved by the Masters nor the Night King.  She will make the greatest sacrifices up to and including her life and the lives of her children to ensure her people survive and prosper.  His oath means she is bonded to them, and he believes she is the leader they need for the upcoming war as well as the (hopefully) years afterwards.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The closest we have is this!

LOL!  I bet Joffrey's 23 and Me showed he was 1/1024th Baratheon.  

[GodsBeloved]

44 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I had a thought.  Two things were mentioned this episode.  Sansa asked if have enough food and supplies for the newly arriving troops.   Dany mentioned that the dragons don't like the cold and aren't eating as they should.

Remember the idea of Chekov's gun?  If you place an element in a scene, you should use it.

Think of what happened when various armies tried to invade Russia.  The soldiers from warmer countries tried to fight but were handicapped by the weather.  The locals suffered with the weather but were able to withstand and do what needed to be done to defend.   

I'm wondering if the dragons and new troops won't be as much use as everyone hopes or needs.   The dragons could sluggish and not willing to perform as needed.   The Unsullied and other southern troops could be under prepared or not as hardened to the weather.  

It might still come down to the Northerners and the Wildlings to win this thing.

[FormerMod-a1]

I think it's a given that the Dothraki troops and dragons may not be as good in the winter as in their native climates, but it's still a hell of a lot better to have them there than to not have them.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

I don’t think he expects everyone to forget titles, he’s just making the case that he was willing to give up HIS title as the price for Dany’s army and dragons that they need to fight the army of undead zombies and White Walkers bearing down on the North. 

Titles of the living wont matter if the living are killed and become slaves in the Night King’s army. 

But if he is of the opinion that his title doesn't matter because of the bigger picture, then no title matters. In his mind they all should band together and forget about titles and thrones and so on because they are all facing a common threat. But then why is he so insistent on Dany's title? Surely Dany should also forget her title, or at least one she claims she has, because it doesn't matter in the bigger picture. But I don't see him telling her that. For the sake of them all to band together and be able to work with each other with as much ease as possible, all titles and claims should be set aside because that is cause for conflict.

[Drogo]

Just now, Smad said:

But then why is he so insistent on Dany's title? Surely Dany should also forget her title, or at least one she claims she has, because it doesn't matter in the bigger picture. But I don't see him telling her that.

Because telling his Queen to stop being a queen is potentially the worst idea, ever.  Also, Jon hasn't told anyone else to give up their titles.

7 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I think it's a given that the Dothraki troops and dragons may not be as good in the winter as in their native climates, but it's still a hell of a lot better to have them there than to not have them.

I figure the dragons are still in mourning for their brother.  (For us it's been a year and a half, but it's very recent for them.)

[Lady S.]

59 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I'm wondering if the dragons and new troops won't be as much use as everyone hopes or needs.   The dragons could sluggish and not willing to perform as needed.   The Unsullied and other southern troops could be under prepared or not as hardened to the weather.  

It might still come down to the Northerners and the Wildlings to win this thing.

I agree they're setting up the dragons to be not so helpful defending Winterfell, but there's no way the Night King and his 100,000 strong army will be defeated at Winterfell in the first few eps. There can't too many wildling fighters left and not even all the Northern houses are supporting Jon anymore, so it's hard to believe they're all gonna rally together and defeat the supernatural foes who way outnumber them and prove they're just so tough they never needed any foreigner manpower to begin with. This war pretty much has to move south at some point and affect the whole realm, else Cersei will be proved right to ignore it.

40 minutes ago, Drogo said:

For me, saying that Jon should have accepted Daenerys' help without bending the knee is like saying "My landscaper keeps mowing my lawn even though I haven't signed the contract agreeing to pay the bills.  He's the best landscaper I've found and I won't find anyone better to take care of my home.  I should really just let him keep mowing my lawn in perpetuity and not paying him, because I don't have to because I didn't sign the contract." 

Jon swearing fealty to Daenerys establishes a promise between them; he and his people are now her people. 

Jon has seen what Daenerys will do for her people.  She will not abandon them.  She will not leave them to die or be enslaved by the Masters nor the Night King.  She will make the greatest sacrifices up to and including her life and the lives of her children to ensure her people survive and prosper.  His oath means she is bonded to them, and he believes she is the leader they need for the upcoming war as well as the (hopefully) years afterwards.

It's funny that people think the only reason Jon could have for bending the knee is that he fears Dany would roast her northern subjects anyway if they still didn't like her and not because he believes in and supports her. I think Sansa's question had a bit of truth to it in that that first boat scene was when he really fell for her with the vulnerability and emotional intimacy they shared. Jon isn't demanding anyone else call her queen and Dany hasn't threatened to burn anyone for not bowing down, he just wants people to stop giving him shit for giving up his kingship and they both want Sansa to not pick fights in public.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

But here's what I don't get: Bran can see everything right? So assuming he communicates with Jon, why the hell aren't they laying facts on the table and telling the Northern Houses, "Hey, you want to squabble about titles? Well, the Night King has 100,000 soldiers, giants, mammoths and a big ass dragon. Shall we prioritize?." It's mind-numbingly frustrating the way these people talk only in vague references.

Because the current version of Bran is a terrible character, who (in my opinion, of course) not only is as entertaining as watching the grass grow but also dangerously close to make the internal logic of this universe collapse. He is sitting outside for hours waiting for Jaime to arrive, therefore knowing that Jaime would come alone and that Cersei betrayed them. Yet did he tell Jon, Dany, Sansa or anyone else? Nope.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

But that's the thing and why I say Jon straight up lied. That is not the price he had to pay because Daenarys had agreed to help before Jon gave up his title. What more did he get from Daenarys for giving up his title? Nothing.

I mean OK, he never wanted it and that's fine. He will either die or survive this upcoming battle. If he dies, the North can chose someone else. If he lives, he can tell him he doesn't want the title and they can chose someone else.

ETA: I just had a thought. I can see 1 reason why Jon thinks its best/he's saving for the North if he gave them over to Daenarys. If he believes she'd turn her Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons on them if they wanted what they have wanted when they chose him to be KITN which is independence. 

Jon went to Daenerys with his hand out, basically begging for her alliance and dragon glass to fight a threat that everyone thought was myth. What did he have to offer her in return? Nothing, especially  if he’s still King of an independent country. The only thing she demanded in return for her protection and aid against the greater threat was his fealty, which he denies her until she proves herself worthy. 

And yes, she offered to fight the AOtD before he bent the knee but looking long term, assuming they all survive, Daenerys would still expect the North to be part of her kingdom. At that point I think Jon figured the best interests of the North both in the short term assuming they defeat the AOtD, and to avoid another war after that one, would be to swear fealty to the dragon Queen  in the same way that Thorren Stark did to Aegon the Conqueror to prevent another field of fire. 

[UNOSEZ]

I do feel for sands in this regard... All the stark kids had some harrowing journeys.. But hers stayed inside the normal realms of men... Bran came back talking about three eyed ravens.. Arya comes back with talk of face changing assassins.. And Jon has his wildlings... giants... AOTD... Night King.. And now dragons... So sometimes her going on about logistics or cersei and the problems of everyday men.. It seems small

[izabella]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

But that's the thing and why I say Jon straight up lied. That is not the price he had to pay because Daenarys had agreed to help before Jon gave up his title. What more did he get from Daenarys for giving up his title? Nothing.

Access to Dany's bedchamber and a dragon ride.  Sansa isn't wrong about Jon bending the knee because he's in lurve.

Bran, after all this time, still puzzles me.  Was he always destined to be the three-eyed raven, and if so, why?  He was just a regular boy.  If Jamie hadn't crippled him, would he still have needed to give up himself and become the three-eyed raven, and if so, why him?  Did crippling him make him the right candidate for the thee-eyed raven job, and if so, why?  Why aren't people constantly asking Bran questions, like, where's the NK now?  What is he doing?  How were the Whitewalkers defeated in the last battle?  Give us some tips and tricks.

[Lady S.]

45 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Thorren Stark did to Aegon the Conqueror to prevent another field of fire. 

And no one's ever said Jon's ancestor was an idiot to give up his crown, nor that Aegon I still had to force all the Stark bannermen to submit through threat of dragonfire afterwards, because the king is assumed to do fealty on behalf on his kingdom. Unless there's an armed rebellion going against his choice and I don't think even these meatheads are stupid enough to try that right now. Back in s2, Robb sent his mother to treat with Renly, and Renly said he didn't care what title Robb used but still required him to swear the same oath Ned did for Robert, and though with Renly's death we'll never know, I never had the impression Robb intended to put Renly's terms to a vote by his bannermen and only agree if they gave him permission.

[Efzee]

18 hours ago, Smad said:

No, having a council IS a necessity. Every Lord and King we have seen has a council. Whether that's a war council or regular advisors. And you know why? Because one person can't micro manage everything that needs to be done in a castle, much less a Kingdom. Even Lyanna Mormont, ruler of a small island, had her council.

There is absolutely no reason to have a council if you're not going to listen to them anyway. The reason Robert Baratheon had one was because he was too lazy to govern his own kingdom. He even said so himself. 

I don't recall seeing Lyanna Mormont's council anywhere at all when she was speaking for her people. Or when she was the first to name Jon king in the North. Think she asked her council their thoughts on it before she said it? 

PS. Jon has his advisors and he actually listens to them (and they never undermine him in public either).

17 hours ago, Advance35 said:

And the thing is, she DID it.  The Lords were getting antsy when he was at Dragonstone as a "guest", not like Sansa warned him he wouldn't be allowed to leave.  She worked to keep peace in Winterfell, kept the Northern Lords and in-residence Vale Nobility placated so that Jon would have forces to come back too, though she hadn't heard from Jon "IN WEEKS."

Then he undoes all her efforts by needlessly giving away his crown.  He cites, titles don't matter, power games don't matter but he couldn't bring himself to fake NOT being on Dany's side when Cersei asked?

If Jon didn't have Sansa sitting at that table in the front hall, well, Lord Royce was very clear, the Vale did not swear allegiance to Jon Snow, they came for Sansa.  He would be down even more men then he already alienated.   Anytime Sansa gets some form of an acceptable picture going, Jon just finger paints all over it and expects Sansa to just adjust.

Even now, Jon took her home, Northern Independence and once again made her answerable to the Iron Throne, something she didn't want since she spent YEARS in Kings Landing being abused.  All that aside, she is still working and placating Lord Royce, keeping the Vale with them, even as Jon drives some of their men away with an unwanted Queen.

He's lucky he has a "talent" for falling upward.

Oh, please, let's be honest. Sansa was being so-so about Jon returning and her having to give up her role as lady of winterfell. It wasn't until Arya called her out on it that she reluctantly,  defended Jon (as little as possible though) to the lords.

As for Lord Royce, he's free to leave at any time. Let him go and take his army back to the Vale. Will there be any food there? Don't think so unless Lysa's intellectually-challenged son (forgot his name) suddenly grew a brain. 

And even if there's food, what will he do? Align himself with Cersei? Yeah right. He'd be lucky to survive the trip back to the Vale and that's not even including the risk of the NK and his every-growing army (thanks to all the dead from the war of 5 kings) moving south and possibly intercepting them.

If he's the luckiest man alive, he and some of his people, might survive the war or even the long night - assuming the Vale is left alone. Then what's to stop Dany from flying one of her dragons up to it and taking it for herself once all the fighting is over?

13 hours ago, millennium said:

I thought the entire episode was sub-par, and with only five episodes left the disappointment is more acute.

Maybe all the hype made expectations unrealistic, or perhaps the episode suffered because it comes on the heels of that unforgettable season seven finale.   That, and there was a lot of housekeeping to be done in the plot.  The end result was a depressing sense that nothing really happened in this episode.   They rubbed a lot of sticks together but no flame.

Euron and Cersei didn't ring true at all to me.   I never questioned her bedding Lancil because he was just so insignificant but with Euron it feels like she has lowered herself to the point of becoming his subordinate.   Obviously she doesn't see it that way, but that's how it felt to me as a viewer, that her agreeing to sleep with him was the result of a weakness, a moment of second-guessing herself, than Machiavellian scheming.  (Admittedly my extreme distaste for the Euron actor may color my impression.)

Sam's reveal to Jon Snow seemed pedestrian and anti-climactic.   The rescue of Yara was so simplistic as to be insulting to the longtime viewers of the show.   The romantic dragon ride felt like sticky-sweet fan service.    Too much reliance on visual gags and one-liners, i.e., Yara head-butting Theon, Sansa on Joffrey's wedding: "It had its moments," etc.   

I finished the first episode of Season 8 feeling like the last episode of Season 7 was the actual series finale.

For me it wasn't so much the hype as all the waiting. It just didn't feel worth it, to me.

As for Cersei, I agree mostly with the quote below. She did seem reluctant to let him into her bed, as if she had to lower herself to do it. She'd have preferred to stay on her high horse, proven by telling him to get himself a whore... yet she gave in anyway. She needs his support and, most likely, him to assume paternity of her unborn child if she really is pregnant. Not sure if her comment about him intriguing her or whatever was genuine or if she was just searching for anything positive to say so he (and his fleet) wouldn't walk out on her.

If only she'd had her elephants...

13 hours ago, GraceK said:

I agree. I get the sense she felt she had too because he’s the last one left. She has the golden company but if Euron leaves that’s all she has. She knows she’s outnumbered and she has NO allies. Jamie is gone. Golden Company is bought... Euron is her last ally left and he can actually go join up with Dany and Jon because they need all hands on deck , so I get a sense of desperation from her. Plus she needs a baby daddy with Jaime gone.

10 hours ago, Nanrad said:

This is Jon and Sansa talking in private about the upcoming battle of the "Battle of the Bastards." The advice Sansa gives is incredible unhelpful.

I honestly don't need Sansa to spill her guts, I need her to use her words. I need people to stop blaming Jon for not listening to her when Sansa speaks in vague terms and gets upset when Jon doesn't do what she wants. 

Yes, couldn't agree more! 

To be fair to Sansa though, she was never raised to "use her words". As a highborn lady she was more likely taught to be seen, not heard. And in KL she learned to stay quiet lest she'd get beaten/tormented by Joffrey. She wasn't lying during LF's final scene though; she is a slow learner and she doesn't really seem all that open to developing her skills. Someone here compared her journey to the other Stark kids and what they didn't mention that they all went in search of a purpose, a way to better themselves (be that for revenge or survival) and Sansa just let people push her around until others took care of those who hurt/manipulated her. She didn't even off LF herself, Arya did it instead (I did love that scene, but would've appreciated it more if they'd stuck to Ned's "the one who passes the sentences, executes it as well").

7 hours ago, BooBear said:

Sam goes to John, did Dani tell you about my family? And my first thought is -- huh? She clearly had no idea who Sam was. Why would Dani tell Jon anything about it? But the story acted like somehow this should have been a conversation. 

The scene where Dany was talking to Sam was so well acted. You could tell the moment Dany and Jorah went "damn" as Sam they realized who he really was. Jorah looked full of sympathy as Sam heard the news about his family and Dany looked like maybe it was a turning point for her. At least, that's how I interpreted her body language & facial expressions during the scene. Like being confronted with the consequences of her actions made her possibly rethink some of her strategy against the living.

Also, I thought it was very telling back when Dany returned from attacking the Lannister army and Jon didn't ask any questions after she said she had fewer enemies today than yesterday (paraphrasing). He didn't want to know. Or he possibly didn't care because his focus was on the north/NK.

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

That advice would have been helpful if Jon showed some self-discipline and stopped to think instead of immediately reacting to Ramsay bow-and-arrow game with Rickon. Jon unilaterally destroyed his army's well thought out battle plan without any notice to anyone else, and nearly destroyed his army as a result.

Sansa isn't Bran. She can't say Ramsay will do X, then Y then Z, nor did she have little birds in Winterfell

But she did warn Jon that Ramsay plays mind games to force his enemies into doing something stupid, Ramsay played an obvious mind game, and Jon still fell for it (in contrast, see the Blackfish's reaction, or lack of reaction, to the Frey's treatment of his nephew Edmure Tully during the Siege of Riverrun. My nephew's marked for death no matter what)

So perhaps from time to time Jon should reflect that he doesn't know everything, and that Sansa isn't a jerk just because she doens't rubber stamp everything he does (A wise king knows what he knows and what he doesn't. You're young. A wise young king listens to his counselors and heeds their advice until he comes of age. And the wisest kings continue to listen to them long afterwards - Tywin Lannister)

Pretty sure Sansa would've blamed her bastard brother for letting Rickon died if he'd just kept his horse standing there, watching impassively as Rickon ran to them for safety. As a matter of fact, Jon seems to care more for his "siblings" than Sansa does, even the full-blooded ones.

3 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Thats all Sansa does, she complains but offers not real advice that everyone doesn't already know.  

I honestly think she is trying to make Jon fail so that she will look good.  I mean its not Jon's fault that there isn't enough food at at Winterfell to Host Dany and Co.....all the northern lords heard Jon say he was going to Dragonstone for dragon glass and allies. So she knew this was a possibility, and we all saw her telling Littlefinger about the raven Jon sent about him bending the knee.  I know the show likes to bend time a bit, and we're not supposed to bring up the books, but the trek by boat from KL to Wf was roughly 6 weeks and by foot about 2-3 months.  Jon sent that Raven from EastWatch.  That means she roughly had 3-4 months to plan for Dany......meaning its not Jon's fault if there isn't enough food.

This.

3 hours ago, Smad said:

So if according to Jon titles are meaningless now, why does he insist on Dany being Queen and treated as such? Do titles now only not matter for anyone but Dany? He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title? And Dany is acting as Queen and expects to be treated as such. Does that mean she hasn't gotten the 'titles don't matter speech' from Jon?

I must have missed the part where Jon was telling everyone to refer to Dany as "Queen" or "Your Grace"? There were quite a few people bumbling about and he never said anything, nor did Dany for that matter. 

And let's not forget that it was Davos who corrected Dany about referring to Jon as a lord back when they first met. Jon couldn't have cared less what she called him, despite being king in the north.

2 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Also, don't forget that from what we've seen and been told by Sansa, she's made sure to get as many people north of Winterfell to safety as possible and organized as much food to feed them through the winter(though we don't know if she planned on another "long night" or just a regular winter from recent history).  That's actually forward thinking.  Jon and Dany just showed up with the largest army in the world with no plan at all on how to feed them.

For all the talk of the Night King being the real threat, I think we're forgetting that WINTER is the biggest threat.  The Night King doesn't need to eat.  He can just let Winter do his dirty work for him if he wanted to. 

Now since the Night King is basically a cartoon villain I'm sure he'll just attack head on and nto show forward thinking, but that doesn't mean that Sansa hasn't shown intelligence in preparing for the winter.  It's just not super heroics and it seems like society in general doesn't value solid thinking over super heroics.

Seriously, winter is the big threat? Pretty sure it's all the dead people rising and killing everything in sight. What use will they have for food once all the living are (un)dead? There's no real purpose to think long-term (I do believe Sansa asked the new maester to look up how long the longest winter lasted for food-purposes) when the short-term is that you'll most likely die. Unite and stick together and some of you might actually survive. Then we can see about food. It's not going to be a war that lasts months, it'll be weeks at most.

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

(...)

Jon has seen what Daenerys will do for her people.  She will not abandon them.  She will not leave them to die or be enslaved by the Masters nor the Night King.  She will make the greatest sacrifices up to and including her life and the lives of her children to ensure her people survive and prosper.  His oath means she is bonded to them, and he believes she is the leader they need for the upcoming war as well as the (hopefully) years afterwards.

This.

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I think it's a given that the Dothraki troops and dragons may not be as good in the winter as in their native climates, but it's still a hell of a lot better to have them there than to not have them.

Considering a lot of Westerosi, including loads of northerners, died in the war of 5 kings, the Dothraki might still be more effective than the remaining northerners. I do worry about their horses surviving the harsh climate though...

Anyway, even if the Dothraki turn out to be crippled by cold, they'll still make good cannon fodder against the wights. Someone's just gotta make sure to burn them before/when they die.

[Shimmergloom]

22 minutes ago, Efzee said:

Seriously, winter is the big threat? Pretty sure it's all the dead people rising and killing everything in sight. What use will they have for food once all the living are (un)dead? There's no real purpose to think long-term (I do believe Sansa asked the new maester to look up how long the longest winter lasted for food-purposes) when the short-term is that you'll most likely die. Unite and stick together and some of you might actually survive. Then we can see about food. It's not going to be a war that lasts months, it'll be weeks at most. 

During the Long Night the White Walkers and Dead were everywhere along the North and the North survived by surviving the winter.  It was even said by Old Nan that the older members of the families would go 'hunting' to spare their families when food ran low, meaning they would sacrifice themselves.   So it seems to me that surviving the winter is still the bigger threat, being as the white walkers have had free reign in the past in the countryside.

That doesn't mean the tv show is going to acknowledge it, but it is in the lore that has been presented from Season 1 onwards.

[AnnaL]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

So if according to Jon titles are meaningless now, why does he insist on Dany being Queen and treated as such? Do titles now only not matter for anyone but Dany? He expects everyone in the North to forget their titles but they better address Dany by the right title? And Dany is acting as Queen and expects to be treated as such. Does that mean she hasn't gotten the 'titles don't matter speech' from Jon?

LOL , I was thinking about that scene by the waterfalls and how different Jon and Daenerys are at the core. 

Jon so romantically called her a southern girl. He sees her as a girl, "his girl" , that meant to me that he would have like her or loved her even if she wasn't a queen or khalessi, IMO that was very flattering as it should have made any woman swoon.

Daenerys reply though was "then warm your queen"

Daenerys will never let anybody forget that she must be address by her correct titles , all of them whenever possible. 

IMO they are so different but maybe that is the tale of the story, that love conquers all and that Jon would be that person who will show her that love can be simple and that love could make her a better person and by default a better ruler. 

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

For me, saying that Jon should have accepted Daenerys' help without bending the knee is like saying "My landscaper keeps mowing my lawn even though I haven't signed the contract agreeing to pay the bills.  He's the best landscaper I've found and I won't find anyone better to take care of my home.  I should really just let him keep mowing my lawn in perpetuity and not paying him, because I don't have to because I didn't sign the contract." 

Jon swearing fealty to Daenerys establishes a promise between them; he and his people are now her people. 

Jon has seen what Daenerys will do for her people.  She will not abandon them.  She will not leave them to die or be enslaved by the Masters nor the Night King.  She will make the greatest sacrifices up to and including her life and the lives of her children to ensure her people survive and prosper.  His oath means she is bonded to them, and he believes she is the leader they need for the upcoming war as well as the (hopefully) years afterwards.

This is the best post ever. I couldn’t like it more if I tried.

[ulkis]

8 hours ago, BooBear said:

I did not like the dragon riding. I had assumed that if Jon ever was on a dragon it would come as necessity in the battle with the dead. I would have cut that scene.

That scene seemed to be a lowlight for a lot of people, and while I'm tempted to say they should of cut it too they probably should have kept a little of it in because that was probably the apex of the Jon/Dany relationship before it they encounter (even more) conflicts. Maybe they could have shaved a teensy bit of it off though.

[dirtypop90]

12 hours ago, Nanrad said:

This is Jon and Sansa talking in private about the upcoming battle of the "Battle of the Bastards." The advice Sansa gives is incredible unhelpful. She is right in the most vaguest ways, but her advice is unproductive. Jon explicitly asks her what he should do and she flat out says, "I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do."

I think people actually ignores how Sansa treats Jon in underhanded ways, which contributes to the reason why Jon still sees her as the little girl he grew up with. Furthermore, our past relationship with someone informs our perception of a person and she treated Jon like crap. That's not something immediately swept under the bridge although Jon is clearly trying. Someone noted that if Jon was Robb she'd never pull this same crap with him.

If you didn't know Sansa's backstory, would her advice makes sense to you?

Why wouldn't Jon trust Sansa? For one, she undermines him in public at times. Two, she's always critical of others ideas, but rarely is able to explain how her ideas are useful. Sansa's states that she lived with Ramsey, therefore, knew him that best, yet, couldn't give one solid bit of advice as to how. Complains that Jon didn't ask her input about the war, and then says, "I don't know much about war...just don't do what he wants you to do."

I brought up their old dynamic because you said they should go back to their old dynamic or whatever. I was pointing out that they never had a good dynamic to go back to NOT reflecting on Jon's perception of her.

It sounds like this all boils down to you thinking Sansa's not an effective communicator. Maybe not, but it's true of most characters, including Jon.  Sansa is not a soldier so she can't say how someone i.e. Ramsey should be defeated on the field, but she can provide info re Ramsey and how he operates that can be useful when coming up with a battle strategy, which is what she did.  

I disagree re Rob vs. Jon.  I think Sansa would speak up to Rob, as well, with her thoughts.  

Jon should trust Sansa because she clearly cares about their family and staying alive.  What other motives could she have?  

I never said they should go back to their old dynamic.  Just that big brother Jon bears a lot of responsibility for the current one.  Their dynamic has improved (IMO) based on what we've heard of their childhood.  Sansa clearly loves and respects Jon, and supports him IMO. I just don't know what we've been shown or what she's said that indicates otherwise.  Yes, she might think she is smarter and isn't always forthcoming, but that doesn't mean she's against him.

[dirtypop90]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

If I could heart a post more then once, I so would.

Sansa has played a role in some of the most jaw-dropping and intriguing plot twist in the whole saga.  And she's a HUMAN character.  Not immune to fire or exempt from death.  She's not hooked up to a mystical internet or a super secret society assassin.

She's a girl that grew up excelling at music, sewing, curtsying and most other characteristics High Born girls are groomed to Gold Metal in.

It's made her story far more gripping to me as a viewer. 

ITA with your post and the quoted posted. I haven’t sat down and tried to pinpoint when Sansa became so compelling to me. But I think it would be during her time at the vale.  Her scenes just became must-see for me, and I started really hoping she would survive but doubted she would.  I found myself half watching other characters I once preferred like Dany and Arya during her training. I always half-watched Jon’s scenes because he used to bore me.  But I became glued to the tv during any Sansa scene.  

Sansa is human, which means she’s not without flaws. Though I think her flaws are exaggerated. I just don’t agree that she’s been awful to Jon. She didn’t tell him about the vale army, but she brought in the army to fight FOR him not AGAINST. So I don’t see her as working against him. I’ve never seen it. As someone posted earlier, his death kind of ensures hers, and I’m sure she knows that.

Edited April 17, 2019 by dirtypop90
Typo

[Leroux]

38 minutes ago, ulkis said:

That scene seemed to be a lowlight for a lot of people, and while I'm tempted to say they should of cut it too they probably should have kept a little of it in because that was probably the apex of the Jon/Dany relationship before it they encounter (even more) conflicts. Maybe they could have shaved a teensy bit of it off though.

5 seconds less of the joyride could have given us at least 30 second of Ghost. 

I am outraged about the fact that Ghost was not there, Jon hasn't asked about him or seemed to care, they used to be what Daenerys and her dragons are, connected by some kind of strange link. 

I know this season had to prioritize many scenes but I do think that D&D have made Ghost a disservice by making him expendable. 

I would have loved to see the reaction of Ghost to Dany's dragons, his reaction to Daenerys. They better not bring him back only on episode 3 to have him killed, that would piss me off. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Efzee said:

The scene where Dany was talking to Sam was so well acted. You could tell the moment Dany and Jorah went "damn" as Sam they realized who he really was. Jorah looked full of sympathy as Sam heard the news about his family and Dany looked like maybe it was a turning point for her. At least, that's how I interpreted her body language & facial expressions during the scene. Like being confronted with the consequences of her actions made her possibly rethink some of her strategy against the living.

I agree. Everyone across forums and social media was making such a huge deal about the Jon/Arya reunion, but for me that paled in comparison to Sam/Dany. Watching that "Oh, shit" expression on Dany's face as she realized her P.R. problems were about to get a hell of a lot worse and Sam struggling not to breakdown was gut-wrenching. I didn't expect Dany to apologize because it would've been disingenuous, but Sam's such a lovable sweetheart it's hard not to feel like a complete asshole in that moment.

Edited April 17, 2019 by BitterApple

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, Nanrad said:

SANSA
Listen to me. Please listen to me. He wants you to make a mistake.

JON
Of course he does.

(gesturing at map)
What should I do differently?

SANSA
I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do.

JON
(a trifle impatient)

Aye, that’s good advice.

SANSA
You think that’s obvious.

JON
Well, it is a bit obvious.

SANSA
If you had asked my advice earlier, I would have told you not to attack Winterfell until we had a larger force. Or is that obvious too?

JON (increasingly heated)

When will we have a larger force? We pleaded with every house that would have us. The Blackfish can’t have us. We’re lucky to have this many men.

SANSA It’s not enough.

JON
No, it’s not enough. It’s what we have. Battles have been won against greater odds.

===

This is Jon and Sansa talking in private about the upcoming battle of the "Battle of the Bastards." The advice Sansa gives is incredible unhelpful. She is right in the most vaguest ways, but her advice is unproductive. Jon explicitly asks her what he should do and she flat out says, "I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do." How is this not listening to her? She isn't saying anything that Jon understands or anyone who has never seen an episode before that one could catch onto. We're seeing Ramsey from her and our perspective and not Jon's.

Her second piece of advice is obvious, but what does she also do? Doesn't tell Jon that there might be one last army in play. When he flat out asked her when they will have a larger force, she simply says, "It's not enough." Jon is acting how most people would reaction when given vague information in a dire situation. Sansa has literally been unhelpful when she had the opportunity to be of great assistance, which she so eagerly desires. 

I think people actually ignores how Sansa treats Jon in underhanded ways, which contributes to the reason why Jon still sees her as the little girl he grew up with. Furthermore, our past relationship with someone informs our perception of a person and she treated Jon like crap. That's not something immediately swept under the bridge although Jon is clearly trying. Someone noted that if Jon was Robb she'd never pull this same crap with him.

I'm sorry, but who said anything about Sansa telling Jon everything? Sansa is crying about how Jon doesn't listen to her and when he tries to listen to her, she gives vague, unhelpful advice. "Don't do what he wants you to do..." Umm, clearly. "What should I do, Sansa?" Sansa: I don't know, just not that. It isn't that Sansa isn't revealing her deepest, dark secrets, it's that she isn't explaining herself in a way that makes her worth listening to. In private, she wants to wait for someone to ask her opinion, but in public she readily voices her thoughts which undermines Jon. If you didn't know Sansa's backstory, would her advice makes sense to you?

Why wouldn't Jon trust Sansa? For one, she undermines him in public at times. Two, she's always critical of others ideas, but rarely is able to explain how her ideas are useful. Sansa's states that she lived with Ramsey, therefore, knew him that best, yet, couldn't give one solid bit of advice as to how. Complains that Jon didn't ask her input about the war, and then says, "I don't know much about war...just don't do what he wants you to do."

Jon pointed out that Sansa thinks she's smarter than everyone, he never said he was smarter than everyone. Jon continuously fails Sansa because Sansa rarely gives him adequate information, so he won't fail her. If you want someone to do a desired thing, set them up for success.

Jon had her in the battle room, and then allowed her to voice her opinions about what he should do when she raised the issue with him. He had more than created space for her, she chooses not to use it, and then complains when he's not open to suggestions she explains abstractly.

I brought up their old dynamic because you said they should go back to their old dynamic or whatever. I was pointing out that they never had a good dynamic to go back to NOT reflecting on Jon's perception of her.

Attention is referring to listening. He doesn't listen to her because she's not explaining herself well. The North listen to her because they are stuck in their ways and so is she. Not to say that she doesn't make points at times, but clearly things are changing and she and the North needs to get with the times.

I honestly don't need Sansa to spill her guts, I need her to use her words. I need people to stop blaming Jon for not listening to her when Sansa speaks in vague terms and gets upset when Jon doesn't do what she wants. 

And yet Jon did exactly the thing Sansa told him not to: he fell into Ramsey's trap.  Sansa told Jon they were never going to get Rickon back, but he didn't listen.  She told him not to let Ramsey bait him, but he did it anyway.

So I'm fine with her questioning how they're supposed to feed Dany's army and dragons, because clearly no one else thought about it at all.

Edited to note that I think Sansa, Jon and Dany are all flawed people who've made good and bad decisions, and I don't really have a dog in the "Sansa's awful/Sansa's wonderful" fight.

Edited April 17, 2019 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

4 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Maybe the NK will bypass Winterfell entirely and make straight for Kings Landing - more population, more potential recruits - then back to Winterfell!

Hey, if he kills Cersei asap, he can have Westeros.

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Maybe the NK will bypass Winterfell entirely and make straight for Kings Landing - more population, more potential recruits - then back to Winterfell!

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Hey, if he kills Cersei asap, he can have Westeros.

The Night King kill the only being colder than himself?

Never!

[Stella]

4 hours ago, terrymct said:

It might still come down to the Northerners and the Wildlings to win this thing.

Exactly.

[taanja]

Yay! My show is back!

I loved just about everything...except Arya and Gendry? say what? where did that come from? that was weird and took me right out of the scene. She was a freakin' child last time they saw one another!!!!. Seriously.

also...

The characters/show make a point of stating that the dragons are barely eating and hate the north/snow -- then Dany and Jon get on dragons and go for a ride and I' thinking -- oh good they are taking them somewhere to hunt -- BUT NO! -- they take them to a snowy landscape to make out?

[Nanrad]

8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

That advice would have been helpful if Jon showed some self-discipline and stopped to think instead of immediately reacting to Ramsay bow-and-arrow game with Rickon. Jon unilaterally destroyed his army's well thought out battle plan without any notice to anyone else, and nearly destroyed his army as a result.

Sansa isn't Bran. She can't say Ramsay will do X, then Y then Z, nor did she have little birds in Winterfell

But she did warn Jon that Ramsay plays mind games to force his enemies into doing something stupid, Ramsay played an obvious mind game, and Jon still fell for it (in contrast, see the Blackfish's reaction, or lack of reaction, to the Frey's treatment of his nephew Edmure Tully during the Siege of Riverrun. My nephew's marked for death no matter what)

So perhaps from time to time Jon should reflect that he doesn't know everything, and that Sansa isn't a jerk just because she doens't rubber stamp everything he does (A wise king knows what he knows and what he doesn't. You're young. A wise young king listens to his counselors and heeds their advice until he comes of age. And the wisest kings continue to listen to them long afterwards - Tywin Lannister)

Here's the problem: many are so intent on Jon seeing from Sansa's POV without understanding that Jon doesn't know what we know. Jon is on edge, feeling frantic, and helpless because he was pressured into waging a war he didn't want to fight, his brother is in danger, barely any houses that swore fealty to them are helping, and winter is coming.

I find it absurd that Jon is being criticized for not showing self discipline or thinking on what Sansa meant because the problem with Jon isn't any of those thing or the many other "issues" some claim, the issue is that Sansa isn't in his place. People will always find a way to make Jon at fault not "listening" to Sansa even when evidence is in their face that he explicitly asked and was given the vaguest answer possible. Now, it's, "He needed to think about her answer." This is the first time in 3 years I'e heard that reply about that conversation because the initial criticism these last few years was that he didn't listen.

No, Sansa pointed this out, "I lived with him. I know the way his mind works. I know how he likes to hurt people. Did it ever once occur to you that I might have some insight?" So, Sansa doesn't need to be Bran, Varys, or LF, she needed to give examples of what she witnessed him do to give context to her claims and validate that she knows him better than anyone else. I've given examples of this before, such as him feeding living people to dogs. It doesn't need to be personal examples. 

Sansa says, "You think he’s going to fall into your trap, but he won’t. He’s the one who lays traps." Jon responds, "He’s over confident--" Sansa: "He plays with people. He's far better at it than you. He's been doing it all his life."

Jon is trying to understand what Sansa means and Sansa further talks about Ramsey's skill. She's not wrong, but Jon understands "traps" and "plays with" in a different context and I don't think people want to understand that. Traps have been laid for him on the field. People have "played with" him. What further confuses and upset Jon is that Sansa says Ramsey is better than it than him and he's been doing it his whole life. THIS IS FALSE. Jon doesn't set the kind of traps Ramsey does nor does he play the same games.

So, how can Jon "think" on what Sansa is saying when she made a bogus comparison that confused Jon?

How does Jon act as if he knows everything? In fact, I find this to be quite false and only relevant when it comes to Sansa. Jon has people that he listens too. Jon has even tried to listen to Sansa and not in a half assed way either. He has asked her to elaborate. He has pointed out that he should've asked her input only for her to speak in riddles. This is not about Sansa rubber stamping everything, but Sansa using her big girl words if she wants to be heard.

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Given Jon's general disregard for Sansa's opinions, I'm starting to wonder if he would have brushed that off, saying Littlefinger can't be trusted.

On Edit: But also, I think the writers were unable to come up with something that would notify Jon but not spoil the surprise for viewers

Here's the problem: people keep trying to justify Sansa's actions and crucify Jon based off of a hypothetical. We honestly don't know if Jon would've changed his strategy by not charging at Ramsey or waiting like Sansa wanted if Sansa had actually given him something concrete. We don't. But, say if she did and Jon did what he wanted to anyways, at least we'd have the proof rather than pretending Jon never wants to listen to her when there is evidence that contradicts this.

2 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

It sounds like this all boils down to you thinking Sansa's not an effective communicator. Maybe not, but it's true of most characters, including Jon.  Sansa is not a soldier so she can't say how someone i.e. Ramsey should be defeated on the field, but she can provide info re Ramsey and how he operates that can be useful when coming up with a battle strategy, which is what she did.  

I disagree re Rob vs. Jon.  I think Sansa would speak up to Rob, as well, with her thoughts.  

Jon should trust Sansa because she clearly cares about their family and staying alive.  What other motives could she have?  

I never said they should go back to their old dynamic.  Just that big brother Jon bears a lot of responsibility for the current one.  Their dynamic has improved (IMO) based on what we've heard of their childhood.  Sansa clearly loves and respects Jon, and supports him IMO. I just don't know what we've been shown or what she's said that indicates otherwise.  Yes, she might think she is smarter and isn't always forthcoming, but that doesn't mean she's against him.

She is not an effective communicator and there is evidence of this. There is no "think." Sansa gave Jon vague advice that almost everyone would discard.

And she'd be more respectful of him as well.

Trust is earned. Jon wants to trust Sansa, but he thinks she wants people to think she's the smartest person in the room opposed to actually giving useful information. He allows her to sit at the table, voice her opinions, and sit in during strategy meetings for this reason also--he trusts her to an extent. Also, she led WF in his absence. BUT, she becomes petulant when she believes her opinions aren't taken seriously, despite them being vague to everyone, except for her and the viewers who knows what's going on.

I don't think she's against him, I think she acts in ways that are counterproductive to Jon's authority and running WF. IMO, she doesn't clearly respect Jon, but there is love there.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

And yet Jon did exactly the thing Sansa told him not to: he fell into Ramsey's trap.  Sansa told Jon they were never going to get Rickon back, but he didn't listen.  She told him not to let Ramsey bait him, but he did it anyway.

So I'm fine with her questioning how they're supposed to feed Dany's army and dragons, because clearly no one else thought about it at all.

Edited to note that I think Sansa, Jon and Dany are all flawed people who've made good and bad decisions, and I don't really have a dog in the "Sansa's awful/Sansa's wonderful" fight.

Yea, she's right, but in the most unhelpful way, which has always been my criticism. Sansa, "Ramsey's dangerous...." Yea, clearly, but how? Her line of reasoning was correct as to why they weren't going to get Rickon back, but she gave Jon nothing palpable as to how to counteract Ramsey's attacks or his army. When Jon cried out that they weren't any armies, Sansa stood and twiddled her thumbs. BUT, she was right to tell him to wait, right? Although she knew Jon had major concerns about their not being additional armies and she knew there was potentially another on the way, but didn't tell him, she was RIGHT!

Sansa thought of it because it is Sansa's job to think of it. 

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, taanja said:

The characters/show make a point of stating that the dragons are barely eating and hate the north/snow -- then Dany and Jon get on dragons and go for a ride and I' thinking -- oh good they are taking them somewhere to hunt -- BUT NO! -- they take them to a snowy landscape to make out?

I had the same thought. More of the illogical 2 for one scene writing. 

Quote

I loved just about everything...except Arya and Gendry? say what? where did that come from? that was weird and took me right out of the scene. She was a freakin' child last time they saw one another!!!!. Seriously.

And Arya still looks like a kid and she isn't exactly dressed like a "she" so it made things even more unbelievable. 

3 hours ago, AnnaL said:

Daenerys will never let anybody forget that she must be address by her correct titles , all of them whenever possible. 

Perhaps it will change in the future but I think Daenerys was out of character here. She apparently got in a snit because the northerners didn't flock to her right away. This is the same woman who dealt with the sons of the harpy in Essos for years so she knows what it is like to have her subjects not like her. But it was also another rushed thing as literally no one in the north had ever seen her before and she came in with a bad reputation. It is to be expected, and I have a hard time believing that Daenerys would be so put out by it given her history. She seems like the type that would go into over drive to start winning them over.   I would have expected her to take the bull by the horns, seek Sansa out (without Jon), and talk with her to try to assure her. Instead she made sarcastic quips, went joy riding out with Jon on the dragons and put her foot in her mouth big time with Samwell.  I feel like since she got with Jon they have lost her character.  The last time I feel I saw her was Dragonstone. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by BooBear

[rmontro]

On 4/14/2019 at 11:09 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Actually Cersei is cruel but she's also incredibly consistent in a way Dany isn't. That I think might give Cersei the edge ultimately -- she has a plan, she executes it, and she doesn't look back. 

Whatever fate might await Dany, I hope she doesn't suffer it due to Cersei's machinations.  She doesn't deserve that indignity.

[izabella]

It would have been a lot better for everyone if Jon had started things off by introducing Dany at the Council as the woman who saved his life, and lost one of her dragons to do so, while personally risking her own life for him as well.   Who among them wouldn't respect that?

[TaurusRose]

On 4/17/2019 at 4:03 PM, proserpina65 said:

And yet Jon did exactly the thing Sansa told him not to: he fell into Ramsey's trap.  Sansa told Jon they were never going to get Rickon back, but he didn't listen.  She told him not to let Ramsey bait him, but he did it anyway.

So I'm fine with her questioning how they're supposed to feed Dany's army and dragons, because clearly no one else thought about it at all.

Edited to note that I think Sansa, Jon and Dany are all flawed people who've made good and bad decisions, and I don't really have a dog in the "Sansa's awful/Sansa's wonderful" fight.

Of course, if Saint Sansa had been on the battlefield, as Jon was, and saw her baby brother being hunted like an animal, she would have sat there with her stony face and watched him die.  Right?  I seriously doubt it.  It's one thing to talk about what Ramsey  might do and another thing entirely to see a loved one in harm's way without doing something (no matter how futile or foolish) to prevent it.  People really need to stop with the "she told him not to let Ramsey bait him" because that is a bullshit piece of advice based on the bait.  And Sansa was not Yoda by any stretch of the imagination.  

I don't like Sansa. I don't have a problem with her asking the question.  I have a problem with her consistently pissy attitude and the way she asked it.  It's really not called for and if I were Jon I would have called Sansa on her attitude ages ago.  I agree with whoever said she would not be talking to or treating Robb the way she behaves towards Jon because Robb was a Stark and, no matter what she says, I think Sansa still sees Jon as less than, the bastard.  I can't wait until she finds out that he is (1) her true born cousin, (2) a Targaryen prince, (3) heir to the Iron Throne.  I would give anything to see that sour mask masquerading as an expression crack. Also, I don't think for a minute Robb would have put up with Sansa's crap.   

Edited April 19, 2019 by taurusrose

[DarkRaichu]

On 4/15/2019 at 5:27 PM, The Companion said:

Exactly. Just Cersei and her guard. It was a huge contrast from the Court we saw in early seasons. 

Most of those people (the nobles) died when she blew up the Great Sept.  It is fitting that the emptiness in her life is the direct result of her actions.

[DarkRaichu]

9 hours ago, terrymct said:

Again.  If Jon doesn't die again.

And also assuming none of the priest / priestess of the Fire Lord is nearby to resurrect him 

[Dobian]