S05.E01: Chapter Eighty-Two

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Jane makes a shocking discovery and looks to Rafael for answers but is confused by his decision to put everything he and Jane have on hold. Meanwhile, Petra is trying to secure a future with the hope of it being with JR, but her past might jeopardize everything.

Directed by Gina Rodriguez, written by Jennie Snyder Urman.

S5 promo:

Original air date 3/27/2019

[cardigirl]

Poor Michael. 😔

[nilyank]

I am completely unmoved by Rafael and his feelings while Michael is right there with his whole life completely erased from him.

All thanks to Rose. 

[cardigirl]

I mean, Jane didn’t show once ounce of sorrow over what had been done to Michael. She just focused on what his return meant to her life now. I didn’t like that. 

Even if she doesn’t love him, she should be angry for how he was tortured. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by cardigirl

[AnushkaR]

It was a good episode but I feel like my expectations were higher. Some of the moments were brilliant

[cmahorror]

I loved it.

The show is called Jane the Virgin so our focus should be on Jane and, maybe my being a widow is influencing my opinion, but I thought it was handled as realistically as possibly for the outrageous situation presented. Speaking from experience, being a widow becomes a part of your identity, of who you are and losing that part would be a major upheaval. The opening sequence was a reminder of just how far Jane has come from a woman barely holding it together to the person she is today, recovered from his loss but always remembering their love. Jane's whole meltdown about who she is now and what she does now with Abuela and Xo was amazingly acted by all three actors and well directed by Rodriguez.

As for Michael/Jason, he was fine, he doesn't seem to care if he got his memories back or not. He had a good life and was happy with it so I just can't bring myself to worry about whether or not he ever gets his memory back.

As for Rafael, he risked everything to bring Michael back, even making sure he was the actual Michael by getting a DNA test. The way he stepped aside and gave Jane room to think about the situation, to not pressure her to still move in with him, showed me once again why he is good for Jane. The scene from Michael's funeral where he stepped up and read her speech for her was touching. Rafael's growth from a selfish playboy to a man willing to give up the woman he loves to make her happy is one of the most touching storylines of the show for me.

Anyone else think Jane is pregnant? The way she was eating and then complaining that her pants were too tight, I don't know - maybe we will get that miracle bay for them after all... 

Edited March 28, 2019 by cmahorror

[nilyank]

21 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

As for Michael/Jason, he was fine, he doesn't seem to care if he got his memories back or not. He had a good life and was happy with it so I just can't bring myself to worry about whether or not he ever gets his memory back.

He was kidnapped and tortured and kept away from all the people that he loves until he no longer remembered who he was. Maybe Jason might be fine, but Michael suffered tremendously and he deserved none of this.

Edited March 28, 2019 by nilyank

[commadrama]

I have mixed feelings on Jane's monologue. I understand that the purpose was to really capture the emotional upheaval Jane was going through, but that said, it seemed just a tiny bit too long. I was actually shifting in my seat and thinking, "Okay, how much longer is this going to last?" when it did finally end. 

[mrsbagnet]

Gina Rodriguez did a good job on her rambling monologue, but I honestly didn't feel anything until Rafael broke down. I'm glad they gave him some space to show his feelings, too.

[JamieLynn832002]

I enjoyed the episode. It's true that Michael's feelings were largely ignored but I'm not sure how else they could have handled it. He's been Jason for four years and as far as he's concerned, he doesn't know these people. I'm assuming his  and Jane's reaction to what has been done to him will come more into play once Jane has had a little time to deal with the immediate "We're getting engaged! Oh wait, no we're not because your beloved husband isn't actually dead...but he also isn't really the man you loved right now and has no memory of you." fallout and if/when his memories return. Right now, there is little any one could do for him beyond Jane trying to trigger his memory because he didn't seem to want or need comfort and even if he did, he'd probably have a hard time accepting it from strangers who insist they love him.  

[cmahorror]

16 minutes ago, nilyank said:

He was kidnapped and tortured and kept away from all the people that he loves until he no longer remembered who he was. Maybe Jason might be fine, but Michael suffered tremendously and he deserved none of this.

It's interesting, a friend of mine and I were discussing Alzheimer's today and the effect it had on people. My grandmother had Alzheimer's and the last five years of her life she didn't even know who she was, even when you showed her a picture of herself. It was devastating for me and my mom but my grandma did well in her nursing home. She had new friends and enjoyed doing things with them. Eventually I had to admit that as long as she was happy and healthy, I could accept that she would never recognize me again. 

That is how I see Jason/Michael now - I understand that Michael suffered greatly but he doesn't remember any of that. My point was that the person we are seeing on screen does not appear to have any problems with his life the way it is and doesn't seem all that anxious to recover his memories and return to his former life. The impression I get is he would be just as happy to take Bo and go home to Montana and it would not make a difference to him. Maybe that will change as the season goes on, but that is the way I feel about it right now. YMMV as always 🙂

Best line of the episode goes to Petra: By the way, I'm bisexual - it's you.

[Lady Calypso]

43 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

As for Michael/Jason, he was fine, he doesn't seem to care if he got his memories back or not. He had a good life and was happy with it so I just can't bring myself to worry about whether or not he ever gets his memory back.

Well, I think Michael deserves to have the chance to get his memories back. Jason isn't really real so, for me, it is a bit more complicated. He may have started a new life, but only because he was tortured and manipulated. Who knows what Rose told him after he woke up in Montana to get him to not look into his old life, besides making it clear that he may be a bad guy. We see that the experience changed Michael in a lot of ways. He's very different from the person he was, at least on the surface. Rose did a number on him. And who knows how much was really his choice, if you think about it. His brain was damaged by Rose. She then manipulated him into not finding out who he was.

His last four years wasn't really dictated by him, in my opinion. He got brain damage and the control was in Rose's hands the moment she "set him free". We also don't know what kind of life he led in Montana. It doesn't sound like he had a girlfriend or wife. It doesn't sound like he had any kids. It sounds like he possibly was more alone than we realize. Maybe he lived in a small town and only had a few friends, if any. But even if he had all of those things, then he still deserves to find out who he was as Michael to make the choice whether or not to go back. 

So that's why I feel sad for him. He was ripped away from his family. Michael may not remember who he is or who Jane is, and he, as Jason, may be ok with going back to Montana. But the situation sucks all around for everyone involved. Michael as Jason doesn't know what he's missing and he may never know. But, from the ending and what he told Jane, he does want to know who he is, or who he was. I like that he apologized for his behaviour toward Jane. Although I think it's entirely his choice to feel how he feels, he recognized that he was hurting her for just being there. It showed that there is Michael in there, somewhere. 

I don't particularly care if Michael/Jane get back together (I know they likely won't and I know Jane/Rafael are pretty much endgame). What I do hope for is Michael getting his memories back and being able to choose the life that he should live. For me, I want Michael to get his happy ending. After everything he went through after his death was faked, he deserves it. If that means he goes back to Montana with Bo, then fine. But at least he gets to make the choice instead of someone else making it for him or him being manipulated into the choice by the woman who kidnapped and tortured him in ways nobody would ever want. 

This is Jane's story and it always has been, so her POV doesn't bother me as much. It makes sense for Jane to be confused by this situation. She did mourn and grieve Michael and then moved on. Just like how Rafael is allowed to feel sadness for the situation. As for Rafael, I've grown to like him a lot so I felt bad for him when he broke down. I don't really ship Jane/Rafael, but I can see how much both have grown and changed since the beginning of the series.

I did laugh at Jane's really big ranting scene. It worked well for me, though perhaps a tad too long and awkward. I also enjoyed Petra's storyline.

Gina did a great job acting AND directing this episode.

[bybrandy]

I loved Jane's rant because it was just stream of consciousness and she gets to be feeling all sorts of things at once.   I process out loud and much of it can be done by myself but sometimes on the big things I need to tell my story.  It is part of my process.  Once i can tell it and make it funny but express it out loud to somebody who has listened it is better for me.  But the people with whom I do that it took a long time to explain that it was my process and that by the time I got to them in the process I was really at the end of it and I didn't need them to give me advice or tell me what to do or even really, really, really worry about my mental stability.  I just needed to say all the things out loud.   It is when I have a problem and I'm not talking that people need to be really, really worried.

So I love that Alba and Xo were just silent because it felt like my sister and best friend would be, "Like, yeah, we're just going to let her talk this one out."  

I am sorry this happened to Michael and obviously I'd like him to get his sense of self back.  On the other hand I can't imagine being poor Jason and people are bombarding you with all of this meaningless info and expecting you to somehow have a Eureka moment and  you can't do that for them.   
 

[blugirlami21]

That didn't quite go the way I was expecting. I thought amnesia would probably be the choice because they would have to assassinate Michael's character to have him knowingly let Jane think he was dead for years.

Jason really is a blank slate which I find kind of hard to believe four years in. Right now it doesn't seem like he had much of a life in Montana. Did he really make no new connections there? I hope we get to know more about who he is now.

I feel bad for what happened to Michael but right now it's ultimately a victimless crime. The Michael we knew isn't there anymore. That may change but that's the reality of it right now.

I definitely teared up a couple of times seeing Jane and Rafael struggle. Jane's monologue was really great in a sad way. I can't imagine what it would be like to finally get over your husband's death after years and be finally ready to move on only to find out he was never dead in the first place. Oh and he doesn't remember you or your relationship. 

I do feel bad for Rafael. He's grown so much. Grown into a man that is worthy of Jane and to see it all kind of slip through his fingers at the finish line is hard to see. I think he's allowed to be devastated about that. It doesn't invalidate what happened to Michael.

The end does give me hope for Jafael. I love that in helping Michael find himself it led Jane back to Rafael. 

On another note, can we be done with Rose and Louisa? It's the last season. That whole side story has been the most unnecessary in my eyes from jump.  It's just not interesting.

I feel badly for Petra. She's come a long way as well. Hopefully she will be able to win JR back. Hopefully she will continue to do the right thing whether that happens or not.

Edited March 28, 2019 by blugirlami21

[bilgistic]

I can't get past the show wanting me to believe no one--including Michael's mother or Jane--saw Michael's body when he "died", up to his "burial". Rose paid off the EMTs, but there are many other people than that involved when one dies. The funeral home? The church? The family?

[emcmac87]

So the whole computer thing made me a little...something. Suspicious maybe?  Am I really supposed to believe that “Jason” doesn’t even know what the space bar on a computer is? 

I really do like how far Jane and Rafael have come, so I hope they end up together. 

[JamieLynn832002]

14 minutes ago, emcmac87 said:

So the whole computer thing made me a little...something. Suspicious maybe?  Am I really supposed to believe that “Jason” doesn’t even know what the space bar on a computer is? 

That did seem a little strange, I'm pretty sure there are computers in Montana. Part of me is still convinced/afraid this is some sort of trick on Rose's part. I know Raf said he had a DNA test done but if I'm supposed to believe she could pull off faking Michael's death then I can also believe she could fake DNA results. I don't have any idea what she'd be gaining in that scenario but I also don't know what faking Michael's death and erasing his memory gained her.

[RoadFullOfPromise]

7 hours ago, commadrama said:

I have mixed feelings on Jane's monologue. I understand that the purpose was to really capture the emotional upheaval Jane was going through, but that said, it seemed just a tiny bit too long. I was actually shifting in my seat and thinking, "Okay, how much longer is this going to last?" when it did finally end. 

My very cynical thought in terms of why it went on so long is that they set it up to be Gina’s Emmy submission. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Watching this episode was very bittersweet. I was so happy to have JtV back on my screen but sad to know that this is the last season premiere and that we are now on a countdown to the series finale. Similarly, it was great to see all the characters again but so sad to see what they were all dealing with. Having Michael return would have been tumultuous enough, but Michael with amnesia adds a whole new layer of confusion and uncertainty.

I loved that we got to see how much both Jane and Rafael have grown. The time lapse of Jane at Michael's grave showed us how she gradually healed and finally moved on. Rafael's gentle support and pointed refusal to be anything but supportive of Jane showed us how much he has matured. He loves her so much that he was willing to give her up if it meant letting her be happy with Michael. It was clear throughout the episode that he only wanted to make sure that she was okay and that he was willing to silently fade into the background to allow Jane to be with Michael.

On a shallow note, Bo is so cute!

Edited March 28, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

That did seem a little strange, I'm pretty sure there are computers in Montana. Part of me is still convinced/afraid this is some sort of trick on Rose's part. I know Raf said he had a DNA test done but if I'm supposed to believe she could pull off faking Michael's death then I can also believe she could fake DNA results. I don't have any idea what she'd be gaining in that scenario but I also don't know what faking Michael's death and erasing his memory gained her.

The computers thing was suspicious, for sure. There's obviously something major being hidden about why Rose took Michael in the first place, but I still think this really is Michael and he really has amnesia. I think they wanted to reassure the audience that this is actually Michael by having Rafael do a DNA test offscreen. The only theory that works for me is that Michael/Jason is still working for Rose, but because he was likely brainwashed by her and her minions over the last four years. He still has amnesia and the neurologist still confirmed that he has some brain damage. So he's still a victim, even depending on if he's working for Rose still somehow. 

But I'd much rather believe that he wasn't and that Jason was just very isolated over four years and he really didn't use technology. I imagine Rose wouldn't want Jason using technology and stumbling upon anything about his old life accidentally, anyway. 

[woodstock]

My favorite moment was Xo going to check on Rafael. A great callback to Rafael being there for Xo during the breast cancer arc from last season.

Rafael breaking down...damn...just damn. All episode he was trying to be strong and supportive. I wanted to reach through the tv screen give him a hug.

Rogelio's introducing himself several times to Michael/Jason was too funny.

[totallyrosalie]

It is jarring to see a new set for the grandmother’s house on this last season.

Edited March 28, 2019 by totallyrosalie

[natyxg]

9 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I can't get past the show wanting me to believe no one--including Michael's mother or Jane--saw Michael's body when he "died", up to his "burial". Rose paid off the EMTs, but there are many other people than that involved when one dies. The funeral home? The church? The family?

I thought the same thing, specially since Michael died of a heart attack. There was no reason for a closed casket.

Saw the ep and I found all of this kind of meh. While I was watching I thought that while they probably did all of this in part so that Jane could choose Rafael as her first choice they just... ruined both Jane/Rafael and Jane/Michael in one swoop.

[mrsbagnet]

9 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I can't get past the show wanting me to believe no one--including Michael's mother or Jane--saw Michael's body when he "died", up to his "burial". Rose paid off the EMTs, but there are many other people than that involved when one dies. The funeral home? The church? The family?

The reason I care so little about the Michael/Jason storyline is that it is now just another part of the ridiculous, tiresome Sin Rostro storyline. It's almost as if Rose has superpowers - she seems to have control over everyone everywhere. If any unbelievable thing happens, - it was ROSE, the evil genius!! I am over Rose. I want her gone. I want any and every thing to do with her gone.

[mrsh]

I really enjoyed the episode. I stopped watching the show after Michael "died" because I was so devastated and couldn't imagine the show without him. Then when I heard he was back I watched all the episodes I missed and caught up. I'm glad we established that it's really Michael and not one of Rose's magical masks. I feel bad for Rafael because he has grown a lot and really been there for Jane but I cringe at then being endgame. For me, that would be the safe ending for the show. Jane and Rafael living happily ever after with Mateo, their biological son. Through the show Jane has felt she should give Rafael a chance because of Mateo and the thing is she never chose to get pregnant by Rafael. It was a circumstance that was forced on her because of the accidental insemination. Jane had plans to be with Michael and marry him and have a family. She was dragged into the Sin Rostro drama because she happened to be inseminated with Rafael's child. She always chose Michael in the end and for me, I would like to see Michael regain his memory and for them to end up together and have their child be the narrator. there were some hints thrown in by the narrator this episode that give me hope.

[cardigirl]

I really wonder why "Rose" did do this to Michael.  Was it a favor to Rafael's sister, Luisa?  When Luisa was hoping or wishing for Rafael to find happiness, in some twisted way, did Rose think that Luisa would love her if she 'helped' Rafael by getting Michael out of the way?  

I mean, if she really wanted Michael gone, she could have killed him, easily.  Why fake his death, give him amnesia, and then use him to get to Luisa again. Was he some sort of insurance policy to keep Rafael/Luisa in line?

Or is it really Michael?  DNA testing be damned, if Rose can fake his death, she can fake that too. 

My true hope is that it is the real Michael and that he does get his memories back because I really enjoyed that character.  It saddens me to think of what the character went through. Whether or not he and Jane get back together is secondary.   

Edited March 28, 2019 by cardigirl

[Simba122504]

20 hours ago, cmahorror said:

I loved it.

The show is called Jane the Virgin so our focus should be on Jane and, maybe my being a widow is influencing my opinion, but I thought it was handled as realistically as possibly for the outrageous situation presented. Speaking from experience, being a widow becomes a part of your identity, of who you are and losing that part would be a major upheaval. The opening sequence was a reminder of just how far Jane has come from a woman barely holding it together to the person she is today, recovered from his loss but always remembering their love. Jane's whole meltdown about who she is now and what she does now with Abuela and Xo was amazingly acted by all three actors and well directed by Rodriguez.

As for Michael/Jason, he was fine, he doesn't seem to care if he got his memories back or not. He had a good life and was happy with it so I just can't bring myself to worry about whether or not he ever gets his memory back.

As for Rafael, he risked everything to bring Michael back, even making sure he was the actual Michael by getting a DNA test. The way he stepped aside and gave Jane room to think about the situation, to not pressure her to still move in with him, showed me once again why he is good for Jane. The scene from Michael's funeral where he stepped up and read her speech for her was touching. Rafael's growth from a selfish playboy to a man willing to give up the woman he loves to make her happy is one of the most touching storylines of the show for me.

Anyone else think Jane is pregnant? The way she was eating and then complaining that her pants were too tight, I don't know - maybe we will get that miracle bay for them after all... 

Great post. No, she’s not pregnant because you have to always remember what the creator says about themes. Each season has a theme. S1 was was the pregnancy season. If Jane gets pregnant this season, it won’t happen until the end. Jane must achieve her dreams first. She wrote her first book but it flopped. The LNN said, “her best is yet to come.” Meaning the book she’s writing now will put her where she wants to be. Gina did amazing. Many are saying Xo/Alba were OOC. But I preferred their lack of interference in that scene. Rafael loves Jane unconditionally. Romance or no romance. He supports her through everything. He’s come a long way. 🥰

Edited March 28, 2019 by Simba122504

[Lady Calypso]

14 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

No, she’s not pregnant because you have to always remember what the creator says about themes. Each season has a theme. S1 was was the pregnancy season. If Jane gets pregnant this season, it won’t happen until the end.

Also, to point out: unless they're retconning Rafael's cancer, he shouldn't be able to have anymore kids. 

[Simba122504]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, to point out: unless they're retconning Rafael's cancer, he shouldn't be able to have anymore kids. 

If Rose can fake deaths and faces, then Rafael can have a miracle child. 😂 😂 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Simba122504

[nilyank]

1 minute ago, Simba122504 said:

If Rose can fake deaths and faces, then Rafael can have a miracle child. 😂 😂 

He has three children, so he really doesn't need any more miracles.

[tennisgurl]

I just dont know you guys. I loved Michael so much, and Michael and Jane were my OTP for so long, and his death hurt in ways that not many other fictional characters have. I couldn't even watch the show for awhile, or even think about it, because I would start to cry. Even in this episode, I was tearing up several times, especially when they flashed back to Jane at Michael's funeral. However, I got back into the show eventually, and even came around more to the Raf/Jane ship, even if I was always going to be disappointed that Michael and Jane never got their happy ending together. But now...

On the one hand, I am really glad that they had Michael have amnesia. No way would Michael ever willingly let Jane and everyone think that he was dead, so at least this doesent retroactively assassinate his character. On the other hand, this is just so depressing. I mean, what are our options here? Essentially, Michael is Jason now, a totally different person with a different personality, likes and dislikes, etc. So if he stays as Jason and goes back to Montana, Michael is basically still dead, just instead of dying of a heart problem instantly, he was kidnapped and tortured to death. So, that sucks. Or, he gets his memories back and become Michael again. Well, thats more ideal, as I want Michael as a character to have SOME form of closure, not just to be absorbed into another person and forgotten, but even if he does become Michael, his family has moved on. His wife is clearly in love with someone else now and wants to marry him, Mateo probably hardly remembers him beyond stories people tell, the world has moved on. Which is good and healthy, but Michael is still Michael. I can already see an ending where Michael gets his memories back, but tells Jane to be with Raf because she loves him now (honestly, even I can admit that they've always been end game) and he will just kind of fade away into the offscreen land. 

It really sucks for everyone, the only bad guy here is Rose (seriously FUCK HER!), and I can understand why everyone is reacting the way that they are. But if this is what they wanted to do, I almost wish they could have just had Michael stay dead, and let me (and Jane and everyone) keep their happy memories of him, and not let his horrible experiences just be another obstacle for Jane and Raf to deal with as they have their Big Epic Love. I kind of feel jerked around, as a fan of Michael and Michael/Jane, honestly. It makes it hard for me to really look at this episode from an objective perspective on how it worked as an episode. I just dont know what the point of this is.

Edited March 29, 2019 by tennisgurl

[bettername2come]

Please before the end of the series, can we get Jane beating the shit out of Rose? Please? Like, she has no real connection to Jane personally, but she's constantly messing up her life. It could be like the monologue scene only with violence. 

Part of me is wondering if Rose has brainwashed Michael into being her spy. I could see her doing that, especially since part of me thinks she ended up liking him after all that time they spent working as partners in season two.

Rafael's breakdown at the end was really beautiful. That vulnerability in that moment with Xo and how he just collapsed.  

[Simba122504]

On 3/28/2019 at 6:32 PM, nilyank said:

He has three children, so he really doesn't need any more miracles.

I don't know what Jennie is going do when it comes to that. But it's a telenovela, so it’s not too much is far-fetched. If Jennie wants Jane to have a daughter at the end, Jennie will do that. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Simba122504

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

 Part of me is wondering if Rose has brainwashed Michael into being her spy. I could see her doing that, especially since part of me thinks she ended up liking him after all that time they spent working as partners in season two.

It definitely could be that. Why else would she tell Rafael about Michael now? And it makes me even sadder for Michael, who was tortured, electro-shocked, brainwashed, and manipulated. Poor guy definitely needs his own happy ending after all of this. It sucks that, even if he regains his memories, he might not get Jane back. I see the show using the four years as a reason why they don't get back together because both have changed so much. Again, it sucks but it makes sense at the same time. Hence why I'm heavily rooting for Michael to regain his memories and get to be happy.

Oh, and if he can deliver the fatal blow to Rose. I think, at this point, nobody else deserves it more than him.

[natyxg]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I just dont know you guys. I loved Michael so much, and Michael and Jane were my OTP for so long, and his death hurt in ways that not many other fictional characters have. I couldn't even watch the show for awhile, or even think about it, because I would start to cry. Even in this episode, I was tearing up several times, especially when they flashed back to Jane at Michael's funeral. However, I got back into the show eventually, and even came around more to the Raf/Jane ship, even if I was always going to be disappointed that Michael and Jane never got their happy ending together. But now...

On the one hand, I am really glad that they had Michael have amnesia. No way would Michael ever willingly let Jane and everyone think that he was dead, so at least this doesent retroactively assassinate his character. On the other hand, this is just so depressing. I mean, what are our options here? Essentially, Michael is Jason now, a totally different person with a different personality, likes and dislikes, etc. So if he stays as Jason and goes back to Montana, Michael is basically still dead, just instead of dying of a heart problem instantly, he was kidnapped and tortured to death. So, that sucks. Or, he gets his memories back and become Michael again. Well, thats more ideal, as I want Michael as a character to have SOME form of closure, not just to be absorbed into another person and forgotten, but even if he does become Michael, his family has moved on. His wife is clearly in love with someone else now and wants to marry him, Mateo probably hardly remembers him beyond stories people tell, the world has moved on. Which is good and healthy, but Michael is still Michael. I can already see an ending where Michael gets his memories back, but tells Jane to be with Raf because she loves him now (honestly, even I can admit that they've always been end game) and he will just kind of fade away into the offscreen land. 

It really sucks for everyone, the only bad guy here is Rose (seriously FUCK HER!), and I can understand why everyone is reacting the way that they are. But if this is what they wanted to do, I almost wish they could have just had Michael stay dead, and let me (and Jane and everyone) keep their happy memories of him, and not let his horrible experiences just be another obstacle for Jane and Raf to deal with as they have their Big Epic Love. I kind of feel jerked around, as a fan of Michael and Michael/Jane, honestly. It makes it hard for me to really look at this episode from an objective perspective on how it worked as an episode. I just dont know what the point of this is.

I agree with many things here, and that's why I said that they just ruined both Jane/Michael and Jane/Rafael in one swoop.

Jane/Michael for the reasons you stated. But Jane/Rafael, too because you just KNOW that at some point she's going to feel attracted to Michael again and be torn between them and whatever, and what does that say about her love for Rafael? Her love for Michael is ruined because instead of jumping into his arms right away and being willing to fight for him tooth and nail because he's back, she's lukewarm about him and basically chooses Rafael right away after he comes back. She almost seems his return as an inconvenience because he didn't come back how she would have wanted him. And her love for Rafael will be ruined when she's starts to want Michael again, because if she fully loved him now there should be no doubt.

I suppose that it's all very "real" and "human", but I would've preferred the romance of Jane loving Michael until his end, and then loving Rafael once she healed from that pain. Both valid, real loves instead of creating a huge mess where only one love can "win".... and I'm sure it won't be Jane/Michael. When you think about it, his ties to Jane just ruined this guy's life and in the end he will have nothing to show for it.

29 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

I don't know what Jennie is going do when it comes to that. But it's a telenovela, so not too much is far-fetched. If Jennie wants Jane to have a daughter at the end, Jennie will do that. 

Maybe Jane will get pregnant with Michael's kid so Rafael ends in the same position that Michael would've been.

I'm joking... though not really.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, natyxg said:

I suppose that it's all very "real" and "human", but I would've preferred the romance of Jane loving Michael until his end, and then loving Rafael once she healed from that pain. Both valid, real loves instead of creating a huge mess where only one love can "win".... and I'm sure it won't be Jane/Michael. When you think about it, his ties to Jane just ruined this guy's life and in the end he will have nothing to show for it.

This definitely isn't wrong. But....at the same time, it's nice that Michael gets a second chance at life. Even if he's not meant to be with Jane (which...of course they've likely always been going toward a Jane/Rafael endgame and the love for Michael and Brett Dier ruined their initial plans to get there, IMO), at least he gets to LIVE. It's why I'm confident he'll get his memories back. I'm disappointed but not surprised that Jane/Michael obviously won't be endgame. 

But it does suck because Michael never really got a choice in the last few years and one of the first choices he'll likely make when he regains his memories is going to have to let Jane go. His experience as a victim to Rose will have changed him negatively, because that love for Jane before he "died" won't have gained him anything. He can't pick up where he and Jane left off. Jane got to mourn him and move on, but he was ripped away from her very suddenly. She never got a choice either to end their love story respectably. 

It sucks because Jane will have had years without Michael and learning to live without him. While, with Michael, he never really got to live all those years without Jane in the same way since he didn't get to remember any of it before. For him, in those four years, it was as if she never existed to him at all. 

And I do feel bad for Rafael, who is in a similar boat and is convinced that he'll lose Jane (which adds to Jane/Rafael being endgame) and he also may have to deal with the "what ifs" of the Jane/Michael relationship. What if Michael never died? Then Rafael wouldn't have been chosen by Jane. Even though Michael's here now, the experiences both Jane and Michael went through make Jane choosing Rafael less impactful....because is it REALLY a good choice in the end? Michael had to be "dead" for years and out of the picture in order for Jane to finally choose Rafael. It's not like Jane and Michael decided to part ways; they were violently ripped from each other's lives. 

There's no real good ending, which is why the Jane/Rafael inevitable endgame isn't going to feel as satisfied. Michael was thought to be DEAD. Does any couple really win in the series finale?

[omgsowicked]

Something I found very interesting was "Jason's" interest in Petra. I remember them being a potential item a few seasons back; or at least, we fans saw some chemistry and wondered if they might go there (when Michael and Jane were off-again) but they never did.

I have no clue what the endgame will be, or what I would even want it to be at this point. I agree with you all that this seems like a no win situation for everyone, and I think that really sucks. But I wonder if Michael ("Jason")/Petra might be a potential option if they're going the Jane/Rafael route. And JR just dumped Petra. That's not a happy ending for him but it's something? I don't know.

[cardigirl]

Well, Jason/Michael showing interest in Petra sure annoyed the heck out of Jane, at any rate. 

I still don’t get why Jane didn’t show any anger or rage over what Rose had done. Maybe she was in shock, or something, but by golly, I’d be pissed if someone interferred with my family that way. 

[nilyank]

I have the sad feeling that Michael will eventually regain his memories but he will pretend that he doesn't love Jane anymore to make it easier for her to she could have her happily ever after with Rafael.

I do find it interesting that Mateo didn't Michael in this episode. I kept wondering if he would be the key to getting Michael's memories back.

[commadrama]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I almost wish they could have just had Michael stay dead, and let me (and Jane and everyone) keep their happy memories of him, and not let his horrible experiences just be another obstacle for Jane and Raf to deal with as they have their Big Epic Love.

Word to this. Throughout the episode my excitement that Michael was seemingly back completely deflated. I'd rather the writers would have just kept him dead. Bringing him back as Not-Michael feels way worse and his inevitable return as Real Michael once he gets his memories back is just gonna be another kick in the pants for the reason you state. Sheesh.

Edited March 29, 2019 by commadrama

[thelegacies87]

I really liked the episode, and the monologue was amazing. Gina can do no wrong. Also she directed so yeah...just so talented.

I had a few issues with this episode though:

- Raf at the funeral just seemed very forced...Are you saying her mother didn't go up there to help her? That it seemed appropriate that her ex-boyfriend, who she once broke up with Michael for, would? It just seemed like one of those moments that they wanted Raf to be "there" for Jane, no matter how much sense it made. I wish they picked a different moment to show, because it just felt so....weird, not romantic and forced.

- So I get that Jane is mostly thinking of herself at this moment, because it makes sense. She's in shock. Her life just got blown up, her dreams destroyed, her grief turned upside it's head, just EVERYTHING. But she wasn't thinking about "Oh wait, Michael was tortured and had his memories destroyed?"  We've got time to cover that I guess.

- Probably something else that will be covered...but is Jane thinking about a WHAT IF Michael gets his memory back. She's all romance with Raf right now, but if his memories come back, then what? I mean,  I don't think she should wait around until it does, but there has to be some sort of consideration if it does. Like, what does this do to Michael? To Mateo? Does she say, "Sorry Michael, you were kidnapped and tortured, so....I moved on?"

[BAH]

I pretty much think/feel/wonder all the things TennisGUrl and commadrama up.  I'm perturbed by it all. 

And, since I am staunchly and unswervingly Team Jachael (??), I take zero pleasure from the impending apparent Jafael endgame.    And am unmoved by Rafael's tears/fears. #heartless

Also, what if Raf ends up being bad in the end, as yet another swerve?  If, in order to get Jane, he just manipulated and worked with Sin Rostro and did whatever else he needed to do, eg. play the sacrifice card, etc etc

nilyank's theory that Mateo could be the key to Michael's memory is intriguing! That would be moving, indeed.

Edited March 29, 2019 by BAH

[Enginerd]

On 3/27/2019 at 7:15 PM, cardigirl said:

I mean, Jane didn’t show once ounce of sorrow over what had been done to Michael. She just focused on what his return meant to her life now. I didn’t like that. 

Even if she doesn’t love him, she should be angry for how he was tortured. 

I think there is some anger and sympathy in there, it's just drowned out by the tsunami of other emotions. I think if this guy were acting like Michael, talking like Michael, but just didn't remember her or his previous life, the sympathy would be more front and center. She'd be seeing him more as the same person who's had so much taken from him. But as it is, he's like a stranger who happens to be walking around in a renovated version of Michael's body, who is totally fine with the way he is and doesn't seem traumatized. 

Did they change Alba's house? Was that door from the dining room to the porch always there? Did the porch swing move? It was very distracting. 

I hated Petra's yellow dress. It was like a floral straitjacket. Jason sure seemed to appreciate its effect, though. I loved how irritated Jane was by that.

[ursula]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I almost wish they could have just had Michael stay dead, and let me (and Jane and everyone) keep their happy memories of him, and not let his horrible experiences just be another obstacle for Jane and Raf to deal with as they have their Big Epic Love.

Seriously like WTF? When Jane was going on her rant about whether or not she was a widow and she'd buried her husband, I was like ---- Who The Effing Cares! He was KIDNAPPED. He was TORTURED until his mind BROKE. There's more going on here than your stupid love life. And Raf crying because of his stupid feels. You try switching places with the guy who had his life stolen from him after he was TORTURED and had his mind BROKEN. Like I know it's a tele-novela but the way they just casually used Michael being basically a POW as a plot point for Jafael was disgusting. Was it too much to expect Jane and Raf to have a modicum of empathy? At least, it's clear that they're meant to be. 

[tennisgurl]

I mean, even if Jason is a different person than Michael and has no memories of what happened to him as Michael, they still realize that Michael was kidnapped and tortured, more or less to death, if we accept that Michael as a person is no more right? Thats a horrible way to "die" even if we accept that Michael is gone and this other guy has taken his place, and really should lead to more of a reaction than "oh no, this really messes up the big romantic day I had planned!" It seems like what happened to him is more of an inconvenience to everyone else than a horrible horror that befell their friend and family member, and a way to push the Raf/Jane ship more. I mean, they even retroactively took Jane's grief over Michael's death at his own funeral and made it into a Jane/Raf moment to get Jane to reaffirm that she chooses Raf.

I get that its a super complicated situation for everyone, but even if people are confused as to how to act around Jason, no one seems to really care about what happened to Michael. It makes what happened to him just about everyone else and how much it sucks for THEM that he is around now, not what happened to HIM.

[Irlandesa]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:42 PM, JamieLynn832002 said:

I enjoyed the episode. It's true that Michael's feelings were largely ignored but I'm not sure how else they could have handled it.

I noticed Brett was listed as a main cast member so I'm pretty sure we'll eventually get to that when (if?) his memories come back.  He has another job so I doubt he's in every episode but I suspect he'll be part of the ending.

On 3/28/2019 at 1:40 AM, bilgistic said:

I can't get past the show wanting me to believe no one--including Michael's mother or Jane--saw Michael's body when he "died", up to his "burial". Rose paid off the EMTs, but there are many other people than that involved when one dies. The funeral home? The church? The family?

Yeah.  That was ridic.  Rose's explanation made sense (well soap opera sense) at the hospital but to maintain that all the way through the burial.  Here's where I expected the weird mask things to come out. That she faked his heart attack, and then switched out his body with someone wearing a mask who she had killed. 

Speaking of identifying, Rafael said he got a DNA test done.  How?  Whose DNA did he use?  Michael doesn't have any kids Rafael could test against.  Did Jane keep a brush of Michael's or something?  I guess I appreciate them saying "yes, this is really Michael" and getting that out of the way but it made no sense.

On 3/28/2019 at 11:46 AM, mrsbagnet said:

The reason I care so little about the Michael/Jason storyline is that it is now just another part of the ridiculous, tiresome Sin Rostro storyline. It's almost as if Rose has superpowers - she seems to have control over everyone everywhere. If any unbelievable thing happens, - it was ROSE, the evil genius!! I am over Rose. I want her gone. I want any and every thing to do with her gone.

Remember when Sin Rostro was a good story?  It was just a plain old fashioned mystery with a lot of potential suspects with a nice reveal that made sense.  Season 1 should have been the end of Rose/Sin Rostro and she would have been perfect. 

Ever since Season 2, she has been involved in most of the mayhem with very little motivation.  And she has introduced fantasy-level superpowers to her motiveless evilness.  She's the JTV version of Dr. Evil but far less entertaining.

19 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, to point out: unless they're retconning Rafael's cancer, he shouldn't be able to have anymore kids. 

He doesn't need more kids but I'm trying to remember the specifics of his cancer/artificial insemination.  I'm too lazy to go back and find the episodes dealing with this but I know in real life, fertility might be regained in certain circumstances. 

13 hours ago, thelegacies87 said:

Raf at the funeral just seemed very forced...Are you saying her mother didn't go up there to help her? That it seemed appropriate that her ex-boyfriend, who she once broke up with Michael for, would? It just seemed like one of those moments that they wanted Raf to be "there" for Jane, no matter how much sense it made. I wish they picked a different moment to show, because it just felt so....weird, not romantic and forced."

Yeah.  I appreciate her realization but the way they wrote it seemed weird.  There had to have been a better way.

5 hours ago, BAH said:

Also, what if Raf ends up being bad in the end, as yet another swerve?  If, in order to get Jane, he just manipulated and worked with Sin Rostro and did whatever else he needed to do, eg. play the sacrifice card, etc etc

I don't see the show totally going against what it had been building in the past five years so I doubt they're going to have Raf be the sidekick of the woman who killed his father.  Nor would he have motive to bring Michael back in that instance. But I wouldn't be surprised for some kind of twist ending where maybe his cancer comes back or something.

On 3/28/2019 at 12:13 PM, mrsh said:

Through the show Jane has felt she should give Rafael a chance because of Mateo and the thing is she never chose to get pregnant by Rafael. It was a circumstance that was forced on her because of the accidental insemination.

Because of Mateo, neither Jane or Rafael could ignore one another completely but "for Mateo" was never a winning argument for Jane when it came to having a romantic relationship with him. Every time Jane legitimately chose to start a real relationship with Rafael, it's because she wanted to be with Rafael. 

[Enginerd]

I watched a telenovela once (Camaleones) wherein a character accidentally took a drug that caused catalepsy and was thought to be dead. In that case (spoiler alert), she came to during her funeral. It was very dramatic. Anyway, that could be how Rose made them believe he was dead. Put his cataleptic body in the casket, then have him removed before the actual burial. 

As to motive, I'm starting to think the only real motive is that Rose is just an evil genius who wants to try the wildest things possible just for the thrill of doing it. She had it out for Michael because he was a detective investigating her, but it's probably just more fun for her to mess with him than to kill him and get it over with.

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, even if Jason is a different person than Michael and has no memories of what happened to him as Michael, they still realize that Michael was kidnapped and tortured, more or less to death, if we accept that Michael as a person is no more right? Thats a horrible way to "die" even if we accept that Michael is gone and this other guy has taken his place, and really should lead to more of a reaction than "oh no, this really messes up the big romantic day I had planned!" It seems like what happened to him is more of an inconvenience to everyone else than a horrible horror that befell their friend and family member, and a way to push the Raf/Jane ship more. I mean, they even retroactively took Jane's grief over Michael's death at his own funeral and made it into a Jane/Raf moment to get Jane to reaffirm that she chooses Raf.

I get that its a super complicated situation for everyone, but even if people are confused as to how to act around Jason, no one seems to really care about what happened to Michael. It makes what happened to him just about everyone else and how much it sucks for THEM that he is around now, not what happened to HIM.

I do think that the focus needs to remain on Michael and what he's gone through, for sure. I think it's natural for Jane to be questioning everything as her life has been turned upside down. Rafael's someone who I think has always naturally thought about himself over others, so I'm not surprised that his breakdown was about him losing Jane. He's grown a lot over the series, but he's still someone who has selfish qualities at his core. 

I think Jane went back and forth on how Michael was impacted vs how she was. She kind of went over some of it in her monologue, but yeah, even that seven minute monologue was more about her than Michael and how different he is as Jason. But this is her series. It's always been in her POV. I remember when Michael got shot in season three, he had approximately one scene where he got to talk about how his shooting affected him. I remember that making me mad because he deserved to really tell his story but Michael was either treated like the bad guy or he was the earpiece to other characters. 

Either way, the whole Michael/Jason thing is horrifying to even think about. I fear for when Michael gets his memories back and has to remember everything that's happened to him. And that's what makes me even sadder about Michael/Jane. It makes total sense if they never get back together, as Michael went through some dark stuff, but he loses Jane because of what happened to him that was out of his control. He was forced to change into a different person and forced to grow apart from his wife. 

1 hour ago, Enginerd said:

As to motive, I'm starting to think the only real motive is that Rose is just an evil genius who wants to try the wildest things possible just for the thrill of doing it. She had it out for Michael because he was a detective investigating her, but it's probably just more fun for her to mess with him than to kill him and get it over with.

Oh, I totally see Rose playing Luisa and wasting her time until she gleefully admits that she kidnapped and tortured Michael for fun. Maybe she did have some fun pretending to be his partner and decided that she was in the mood to play with him again. I also suspect that she has Jason recruited as her spy now, but back then, she didn't have any solid plans with him. I mean, poor guy had his temporal lobe shocked for who knows how many weeks or months until he lost his memories. 

It's hard to not feel bad for Michael/Jason. Even if he's revealed to be a spy, he's still a victim and I wouldn't blame him at all. I don't see him faking amnesia, which is good, but that also means that Michael's gone through a lot and really can't be blamed for his actions as Jason. Rose essentially cleaned his slate and decided to use him for her own personal gain. 

1 hour ago, Enginerd said:

I watched a telenovela once (Camaleones) wherein a character accidentally took a drug that caused catalepsy and was thought to be dead. In that case (spoiler alert), she came to during her funeral. It was very dramatic. Anyway, that could be how Rose made them believe he was dead. Put his cataleptic body in the casket, then have him removed before the actual burial. 

Rose did specify that she had her fake EMTs take Michael away, so it's doubtful. I wish Rose had another line of dialogue added about how maybe that they were all fooled by the dead body in the casket with her amazing plastic surgery making it look like Michael. That way, it would be believable, as nobody would have really checked the face to see if it was really Michael. 

[BAH]

https://www.tvguide.com/amp/news/jane-the-virgin-season-5-preview-jennie-snyder-urman-michael-return/

I found the above article helpful in understanding Jennie’s intentions. Maybe because I’m so  biased  against Rafael, I’m reading into her “heroes/heroines get a happy ending; villains get punished “ to mean a possible happy ending for Michael and Jane. 

It’s likely I’m totally wrong. I just don’t see how Michael can become Michael again and get a happy ending without Jane. The narrator said he would love Jane until his dying breath, but suddenly we’re supposed to think he could be happy with Petra? Sounds like total Bs to me.

Or, if Michael is indeed gone forever, then  I would hope Jason gets a happy ending. I would prefer that over a Jane-less Michael. 

Oh, and I just have to add that I never understood at all why Jane felt drawn to Rafael in the beginning. Michael was so clearly better. Rafael changed, obviously, but to think Jane fell in love with Rafael 1.0, I just never got it.  The only romance that DID seem feasible (though still only quasi-believable) to me was this last one, after Michael “died”.  Though it’s a knife to my heart to accept it.   I’m just crazy for adorkable Michael, what can I say. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by BAH

[Simba122504]

23 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

This definitely isn't wrong. But....at the same time, it's nice that Michael gets a second chance at life. Even if he's not meant to be with Jane (which...of course they've likely always been going toward a Jane/Rafael endgame and the love for Michael and Brett Dier ruined their initial plans to get there, IMO), at least he gets to LIVE. It's why I'm confident he'll get his memories back. I'm disappointed but not surprised that Jane/Michael obviously won't be endgame. 

But it does suck because Michael never really got a choice in the last few years and one of the first choices he'll likely make when he regains his memories is going to have to let Jane go. His experience as a victim to Rose will have changed him negatively, because that love for Jane before he "died" won't have gained him anything. He can't pick up where he and Jane left off. Jane got to mourn him and move on, but he was ripped away from her very suddenly. She never got a choice either to end their love story respectably. 

It sucks because Jane will have had years without Michael and learning to live without him. While, with Michael, he never really got to live all those years without Jane in the same way since he didn't get to remember any of it before. For him, in those four years, it was as if she never existed to him at all. 

And I do feel bad for Rafael, who is in a similar boat and is convinced that he'll lose Jane (which adds to Jane/Rafael being endgame) and he also may have to deal with the "what ifs" of the Jane/Michael relationship. What if Michael never died? Then Rafael wouldn't have been chosen by Jane. Even though Michael's here now, the experiences both Jane and Michael went through make Jane choosing Rafael less impactful....because is it REALLY a good choice in the end? Michael had to be "dead" for years and out of the picture in order for Jane to finally choose Rafael. It's not like Jane and Michael decided to part ways; they were violently ripped from each other's lives. 

There's no real good ending, which is why the Jane/Rafael inevitable endgame isn't going to feel as satisfied. Michael was thought to be DEAD. Does any couple really win in the series finale?

Jennie said she chose death because she didn’t want the audience to view Jane as a flake. Jane was going to start having feelings for Rafael again while married to Michael. Jennie already planned for Jane to move towards Rafael again even though she married Michael. Jennie said fans were going to say, “well, I thought you loved this guy but now you love the other guy again?” You flip flop too much. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Simba122504