S02.E09: Identity, Part II

[italianguy626]

I get a sense that the Kaylons are a mashup of the Borg and the Founders from Star Trek lore.

Regarding the episode, I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Wasn't messing with my phone, this had my complete and undivided attention.

What a space battle! Last space battle that I can think of that was that epic in scope was the battle over Coruscant from Revenge of the Sith. Makes sense to me now why they've done a lot of understated character episodes this season, they needed to save their $$$ for the CGI work on these two episodes.

So now that Kaylon Primary is deactivated, which robot takes their place? Are the Kaylon now leaderless? Will there be some kind of Kaylon civil war? It sounds like Kaylon Primary was their leader for a very long time, so was there a successor? Individual Kaylons have exhibited autonomy, unlike the Borg who were all slaved to the collection, so what do you all think?

[Cress]

I found part 2 disappointing compared to part 1. Yes, Isaac finally saved everyone by killing Kaylon Primary, but I kept thinking it was way too easy for him to turn and shoot down each Kaylon one by one with his lasers. Shouldn't these robots have faster reflexes and be able to simultaneously shoot Isaac down the moment they realized that he was a threat? He shouldn't have been able to kill more than one before they should have overcome him by sheer numbers. And like others have said, it's weird that the EMP pulse deactivated the Kaylons but not the ship's electronics. Poor writing I think.

I don't like space battles that much, and it just went on and on. Going to the Krill for help was an interesting idea for how to finally find common ground with them, but we'll have to see if it leads to any more attempts at brokering peace.

I think Isaac should have faced actual consequences, such as being put in jail or something for a few weeks or months while people debate the betrayal and mourn casualties. Too often Mercer gets to have these one-on-one talks with admirals, convincing them to do something highly unorthodox instead of having to plead his case to a tribunal or conference of several authority figures, and I'm sick of him being able to wheedle his way out of problems, like with the Moclans earlier this season. Mercer is NOT the captain of the most important starship, so he should not continually be treated like he can be granted extraordinary favors like this. I don't buy it. This show could have written in a time-jump if they really didn't want to lose the actor for several episodes, but no, they wanted an easy return to the status quo, with Isaac immediately back on ship after Mercer again gets his way.

I found the ending between Claire and Isaac a little too rushed. Why should she broach "forgiveness" at this point, even just the start of it? Why couldn't she instead speak grudgingly about how he saved Ty in the end, but still ask why he couldn't speak up earlier when they were first captured on Kaylon? Why not recall bitterly how he had deceived the whole Union about his mission on the ship? It's just too quick to get over that sort of betrayal.

[Dewey Decimate]

1 hour ago, welnoc said:

I don't think that the new name was the point in itself. To me, it served to demonstrate that the Kaylons were  no better than their "masters".

Right before checking out this thread it dawned on me that Isaac* choosing a new name may have been a Kunta Kinte moment. Terrific! Except in which society would he be considered more of a slave - the Kaylon collective or his ambassador life?

(*NGL, when the Prime asked Isaac the origin of his name, I was half expecting him to say "There was a character on an Earth-based entertainment medium in which a water-bound vessel was boarded each week by an assortment of biological forms seeking what the human species call 'love'...")

Loved that one of the ships was named Hawking, and hope in the future to hear other ships bearing the name of some famous non-Caucasian scientists.

Aw, Yaphit! His attack on and subsequent knowledge about Kaylon "anatomy" actually made sense. Loved that he saved Claire's bf without a second thought. Is it wrong to want a storyline in which Yaphit gets lucky, perhaps without Claire and definitely without the use of mind-altering substances?

I'm good with hand-waving how Gordon immediately knew how to operate an alien fighter (Matrix-style upload?) just for the sheer blast of seeing him vibe with the Krill pilot. I'm not a huge fan of extended CGI space-battle sequences, but it looked great; the shot of the chase as they buzzed over the moon was VERY cool.

Have to admit that despite the "it's already been done" aspect of this general storyline, the feel-good-ness of disparate organisms putting aside differences to fight a common enemy GOT ME. I was actually a little teary! On a planet in which our own species cannot even tolerate each other (perhaps we need an alien invasion?), seeing Krill and humans and Moclans and whatever-the-hell Yaphit is come together gives me life.

[ganesh]

Someone last week called that the Krill would step in to help. So, good work there. 

This was just fantastic. Everyone working together, Yaphit and Ty teaming up to crawl around. I hope the Union gives them both commendations. 

[ganesh]

40 minutes ago, Dewey Decimate said:

I'm good with hand-waving how Gordon immediately knew how to operate an alien fighter (Matrix-style upload?) just for the sheer blast of seeing him vibe with the Krill pilot. I'm not a huge fan of extended CGI space-battle sequences, but it looked great; the shot of the chase as they buzzed over the moon was VERY cool.

Didn't Ed and Gordon escape on a Krill ship when they went undercover? I can buy that Gordon is savant enough to be able to pilot most craft, but he could have also learned it previously. 

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, Cress said:

I don't like space battles that much, and it just went on and on.

That space battle was insane!  I almost wondered if it was so much over the top in order to make it cheaper.  Rather than having to pay attention to all the logical little movements that would be going on, throw so much onto the screen at once with so many laser/phaser blasts going on that you can't really tell that it might be off.  If that makes any sense.  I'm not saying that's what they did, but it did cross my mind.  Because it was like sensory overload.

[tv-talk]

Yeah have to say I found this ep fairly avg overall, tho could have been much worse and I'm glad it's still a relatively solid sci-fi show.

Probably my biggest issue was how lame the Kaylons turned out to be. For 2 season we get constant references to how insanely advanced they are, we finally get to their planet and they take control of the Orville for a minute as they scan the ship, most of the episode states their tech is so far beyond ours we can barely understand it (even tho they move around like 1975 Cybermen). Yet when it came right down to it- they were relatively easily defeated by a portion of the Earth fleet (remember Admiral said most of fleet was weeks ago) and whatever Krill ships showed up. The Kaylons had exactly ZERO advanced weapons, targeting, drones, or anything else. It wasnt even clear how they'd have ended life on Earth- years on end of phaser blasts from their ships? And about that- so the Earth has no real defenses other than ships fighting to protect it? No land based or satellite weapons to turn back invaders? I think the show went the GoT route and wanted to do a huge, expensive battle scene as centerpiece to the season- for me personally fell kind of flat as it was a bit jumbled and confused to watch.

Now I'm well aware we are by definition dealing with which trope to pick in these situations. And I'm hugely grateful they didnt go the simulation route. I just would have chosen a different trope, probably the "Isaac, Ed, and Bortus must infiltrate Kaylon ship during hopeless battle to discharge EM pulse before the doomsday weapon wipes Earth out."

Overall I'd say C+ episode after what I thought was an A in part1.

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

That space battle was insane!  I almost wondered if it was so much over the top in order to make it cheaper.  Rather than having to pay attention to all the logical little movements that would be going on, throw so much onto the screen at once with so many laser/phaser blasts going on that you can't really tell that it might be off.  If that makes any sense.  I'm not saying that's what they did, but it did cross my mind.  Because it was like sensory overload.

That's how the space battle looked to me too. 
Admittedly, I was watching a smallish screen and squinting at all the flashing,
but when I read all the praise for the CGI of the battle here,
and how it was expensive to make,
I couldn't stop thinking of The Emperor's New Clothes,
and wondering whether anyone actually could follow the battle.
So far, I haven't read anything to indicate that anyone actually could see what was happening in the battle other than the shots of Gordon hamming it up Starbuck style. 
  

16 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I just would have chosen a different trope, probably the "Isaac, Ed, and Bortus must infiltrate Kaylon ship during hopeless battle to discharge EM pulse before the doomsday weapon wipes Earth out."

Overall I'd say C+ episode after what I thought was an A in part1.

Yes, and yes.  
Although the parts with Isaac and Yaphit were good in that they showed character development and, in Isaac's case, opened a can of future worms WRT future interpersonal relations.

Edited March 3, 2019 by shapeshifter

[tv-talk]

45 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

So far, I haven't read anything to indicate that anyone actually could see what was happening in the battle other than the shots of Gordon hamming it up Starbuck style. 

I thought it was funny that during the frenetic battle when you cant tell what's happening and ships are getting destroyed all around, at one point Ed yells out "hard to port" and the Orville makes a slick kill or whatever- as if the ship captains are calling out directions to helmsman in real time during a battle that's basically a dogfight amongst 1,000 different ships of varying sizes.

[ketose]

I would have enjoyed it if the Kaylons were destroyed because they tried to fight as a single unit and kept getting taken out on their flank until they retreated.

However, I thought it looked good, was well lit and the wide shots showed the scope of the battle. The fighting was basically chaos because the Union knew little about the Kaylon ships and kept adjusting their tactics until the Krill came along to save their asses.

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, italianguy626 said:

I get a sense that the Kaylons are a mashup of the Borg and the Founders from Star Trek lore.

 

I always felt they were more like the Cylons from Battlestar BSG. The way Primary kept on talking about their creators and how they were enslave made me feel like I was watching Cavil on BSG but without the religious angle. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I always felt they were more like the Cylons from Battlestar BSG. The way Primary kept on talking about their creators and how they were enslave made me feel like I was watching Cavil on BSG but without the religious angle. 

I too have thought Kaylons=Cylons, 
but I wondered if that was just my frame of reference as a rabid fan of BSG when the reimagined series aired, 
and having only watched most of the Treks after the first as reruns.
So I defer to the group of more knowledgeable posters WRT the writers' likely prototype for the Kaylons. 
Of course, Kaylons look nothing like Six so far. 
  

__________
  

  

5 hours ago, ketose said:

the wide shots showed the scope of the battle

@ketose (or anyone), what size screen were you watching the battle scenes on? 
I was watching on a 21" TV from about 12' away.
Do you think that matters?

Edited March 3, 2019 by shapeshifter

[ketose]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I too have thought Kaylons=Cylons, 
but I wondered if that was just my frame of reference as a rabid fan of BSG when the reimagined series aired, 
and having only watched most of the Treks after the first as reruns.
So I defer to the group of more knowledgeable posters WRT the writers' likely prototype for the Kaylons. 
Of course, Kaylons look nothing like Six so far. 
  

__________
  

  

@ketose (or anyone), what size screen were you watching the battle scenes on? 
I was watching on a 21" TV from about 12' away.
Do you think that matters?

I watched the episode on a 26" TV from about 6 feet away. I rewatched on a 22" monitor from about 15 inches away. Most of my comments were on the rewatch, but I think the battle was really about the chaos of a hastily assembled Union fleet with no preparation and a Kaylon fleet that wasn't expecting resistance. I could see that on the screen the first time.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, ketose said:

I think the battle was really about the chaos of a hastily assembled Union fleet with no preparation and a Kaylon fleet that wasn't expecting resistance. I could see that on the screen the first time.

If that's all it was, I didn't miss much.
I just thought from all the upthread enthusiasm for the battle scenes that I was missing a lot--like specific dogfights between ships and whatnot.

ETA: But now I'm kind of back to thinking that The Emperor of Space Battles has no clothes.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited March 3, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Gummo]

14 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I thought it was funny that during the frenetic battle when you cant tell what's happening and ships are getting destroyed all around, at one point Ed yells out "hard to port" and the Orville makes a slick kill or whatever- as if the ship captains are calling out directions to helmsman in real time during a battle that's basically a dogfight amongst 1,000 different ships of varying sizes.

AND the ships are not drifting slowly & cautiously through a relatively small space as they're depicted, they're hurtling at anywhere between hundreds and thousands of miles an hour in the approximately quarter million miles between the moon and earth, speeds and distances at which only computers and Kaylons could fight in real time. The crew would be sitting there clutching their armrests as passive observers . . . which has a dramatic content of exactly zero, so yeah, l get it, you have to show'em doing something.

I thought the whole point of the scene where Primary orders Isaac to choose a new name was Isaac hesitating and not answering, as if he was "feeling" reluctance and resistance to the idea of leaving his current identity behind. He was beginning to realize he wanted to be the being his human companions thought he was; he wanted to be a better being ... but did he realize he was adopting the mindset and frame of reference of the biologicals as to what constitutes a "better being"? Or has he succumbed to his own personal Stockholm Syndrome, accept the outlook of his 'captors' without even realizing it? Or to a sentient robot, would the morals and ethics of biologicals appear something like a religious cult, since we declare fealty to things like "justice" and "mercy," which have no analogue in the real world -- so to the Kaylons, sure, Isaac's a traitor, but do they also look at it like he's joined this weird organic cult?  BUT (again) when I think about that moment when the Kaylon said to Isaac something like "you will be forever alone," are the Kaylons the cult and Isaac an apostate to be shunned (but that would put us right back in the old ST mindset of Humanity, For All Her Flaws, Is Always Right And the Our Values, Though We May Fail to Live Up to Them, Are the Right Values)?

Sure, the show will probably never address these questions in any meaningful way, but I love that I find myself thinking about this stuff and I'm so entertained at the same time -- that's what good sf does (gaping plot holes and all)!

Edited March 3, 2019 by Gummo

[shapeshifter]

49 minutes ago, Gummo said:

I thought the whole point of the scene where Primary orders Isaac to choose a new name was Isaac hesitating and not answering, as if he was "feeling" reluctance and resistance to the idea of leaving his current identity behind. He was beginning to realize he wanted to be the being his human companions thought he was; he wanted to be a better being ... but did he realize he was adopting the mindset and frame of reference of the biologicals as to what constitutes a "better being"? Or has he succumbed to his own personal Stockholm Syndrome, accept the outlook of his 'captors' without even realizing it? Or to a sentient robot, would the morals and ethics of biologicals appear something like a religious cult, since we declare fealty to things like "justice" and "mercy," which have no analogue in the real world -- so to the Kaylons, sure, Isaac's a traitor, but do they also look at it like he's joined this weird organic cult?  BUT (again) when I think about that moment when the Kaylon said to Isaac something like "you will be forever alone," are the Kaylons the cult and Isaac an apostate to be shunned (but that would put us right back in the old ST mindset of Humanity, For All Her Flaws, Is Always Right And the Our Values, Though We May Fail to Live Up to Them, Are the Right Values)?

Sure, the show will probably never address these questions in any meaningful way, but I love that I find myself thinking about this stuff and I'm so entertained at the same time -- that's what good sf does (gaping plot holes and all)!

I'm torn between wanting to live on a desert island with this^^ post, @Gummo, and wishing we were in an 18th century salon inhabited by 21st-and-beyond century time travelers like ourselves. 
Ooo. Maybe we can write a spec script on this scenario.
Anyway, I hadn't considered the significance of Isaac's hesitation to answer Primary, nor the Stockholm Syndrome aspect of Isaac's existence on the Orville--both of which I appreciate you bringing up.
On a personal level, I often remain silent in situations like that as Isaac did. Therapists may disapprove, but it probably saved Isaac's shiny but in the long run. 

One more thing: It seems the Kaylons all self identify as masculine. Maybe a human-biological learned power play?

Edited March 3, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Apocalypso]

Enjoyed the episode but I had to smile at using the vents to escape and fight back, as that was the favorite solution in Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (about every other week ), about 5 decades ago.

[The Kings Foot]

18 hours ago, rmontro said:

That space battle was insane!  I almost wondered if it was so much over the top in order to make it cheaper.  Rather than having to pay attention to all the logical little movements that would be going on, throw so much onto the screen at once with so many laser/phaser blasts going on that you can't really tell that it might be off.  If that makes any sense.  I'm not saying that's what they did, but it did cross my mind.  Because it was like sensory overload.

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

That's how the space battle looked to me too. 
Admittedly, I was watching a smallish screen and squinting at all the flashing,
but when I read all the praise for the CGI of the battle here,
and how it was expensive to make,
I couldn't stop thinking of The Emperor's New Clothes,
and wondering whether anyone actually could follow the battle.
So far, I haven't read anything to indicate that anyone actually could see what was happening in the battle other than the shots of Gordon hamming it up Starbuck style. 
  

Yes, and yes.  
Although the parts with Isaac and Yaphit were good in that they showed character development and, in Isaac's case, opened a can of future worms WRT future interpersonal relations.

3 hours ago, ketose said:

I watched the episode on a 26" TV from about 6 feet away. I rewatched on a 22" monitor from about 15 inches away. Most of my comments were on the rewatch, but I think the battle was really about the chaos of a hastily assembled Union fleet with no preparation and a Kaylon fleet that wasn't expecting resistance. I could see that on the screen the first time.

Ironically that crazy furball is probably more accurate of what a 3 dimensional space battle would look like instead of the leisurely  two dimensional turns that Star Trek ships make.  It what makes Star Trek battle scenes infuriating for me.   I was glad to see the Kaylon ships simply spin around  while still keeping thier forward momentum.   And attacks came from all  axes.

Edited March 3, 2019 by The Kings Foot

[ganesh]

42 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

It what makes Star Trek battle scenes infuriating for me. 

I never understood why they didn't have fighters and just kind of slugged away.

[Dobian]

So basically, the Krill are now the Klingons, the Kaylon are the Dominion, and Isaac is Odo.

I'm still waiting for the Mercer joke to one of the Krill that on Earth we worship Hertz and Alamo.

How much did this episode cost?  I felt like I was watching a Star Wars movie with all those special effects.

How many times in that big battle did it look like a Kaylon ship exploded right in the Orville's face, or the one that blew up while Gordon was flying his little fighter ship through it lol.  Wouldn't it have been creamed in the blast radius?

Despite Isaac doing a 180 he was still a spy who committed massive war crimes.  But it's a show, and the show wants Isaac as a regular.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Dobian

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

Despite Isaac doing a 180 he was still a spy who committed massive war crimes.  But it's a show, and the show wants Isaac as a regular.

That's why Claire made it clear in that final scene that while Isaac would have a home on the Orville, he would have to work hard to regain everyone's trust and to earn true forgiveness (including hers), and it wasn't something that was going to happen overnight.  Isaac understands this on some level, and he knows that while people will be outwardly civil to him, they'll still be side-eyeing him every second they're with him until they're satisfied that they can trust him completely and that he won't revert to form when/if the Kaylons decide to come calling for Round 2.

Edited March 3, 2019 by legaleagle53

[marinw]

So I just got back from two weeks in Cuba and these two episodes were the first thing I watched! It was like The Best of Both Worlds, although like @shapeshifter I too compare the Kaylons more to the Cylons than the Borg. The names are even simelar.

I always thought Isaac chose to name himself after Isaac Asimov. I stand corrected, and the Kaylons would clearly view Asimov’s The Rules of Robotics as servitude.

Edited March 4, 2019 by marinw

[Driad]

57 minutes ago, marinw said:

I always thought Isaac chose to name himself after Isaac Asimov. I stand corrected, and the Kaylons would clearly view Asimov’s The Rules of Robotics as servitude.

I choose to believe that Isaac named himself after both Newton and Asimov, but he chose to mention only Newton, either to save time or for the reason you gave.

[TVSpectator]

20 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I too have thought Kaylons=Cylons, 
but I wondered if that was just my frame of reference as a rabid fan of BSG when the reimagined series aired, 
and having only watched most of the Treks after the first as reruns.
So I defer to the group of more knowledgeable posters WRT the writers' likely prototype for the Kaylons. 
Of course, Kaylons look nothing like Six so far

1

I know that most of the inspiration for the show comes from Star Trek, especially the TNG era but overall, the Kaylons never remind me of the Borg or even the Founders. They seem to be something more along the lines of robots rising up and killing their creators and every other living being in the universe trope. That is why they reminded me more of the Cylons (and that Kaylons also sound a lot like Cylons and they are not a combination of a living organism being assimilated into a collective).

Of course, the Kaylons don't look like the human Cylons (like Ones, Twos, Threes, Sixes, Sevens, and Eights) but the way they talk about wanting to eliminate all biological life and that all biological life is just like their creators would, in my mind, put them much closer to the BSG Cylons. 

[EllenB]

I think I've finally figured out another part of the inspiration for this show.  This is "MASH" mixed with "Stripes" in space.  They're goofballs who are actually good at their jobs but who stay goofballs otherwise.  I was in the military decades ago, and military movies always turned me off because they were SO SERIOUS ALL. THE. TIME.  "MASH" and "Stripes" were the two movies that reminded me of the people I worked and lived with, and "The Orville" has that same vibe.

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

21 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I too have thought Kaylons=Cylons,...

1

I know that most of the inspiration for the show comes from Star Trek, especially the TNG era but overall, the Kaylons never remind me of the Borg or even the Founders. They seem to be something more along the lines of robots rising up and killing their creators and every other living being in the universe trope. That is why they reminded me more of the Cylons (and that Kaylons also sound a lot like Cylons and they are not a combination of a living organism being assimilated into a collective).

Of course, the Kaylons don't look like the human Cylons (like Ones, Twos, Threes, Sixes, Sevens, and Eights) but the way they talk about wanting to eliminate all biological life and that all biological life is just like their creators would, in my mind, put them much closer to the BSG Cylons. 

11 minutes ago, EllenB said:

I think I've finally figured out another part of the inspiration for this show.  This is "MASH" mixed with "Stripes" in space.  They're goofballs who are actually good at their jobs but who stay goofballs otherwise.  I was in the military decades ago, and military movies always turned me off because they were SO SERIOUS ALL. THE. TIME.  "MASH" and "Stripes" were the two movies that reminded me of the people I worked and lived with, and "The Orville" has that same vibe.

Replying to both in the Compare and Contrast: The Orville, the Star Treks, Muppets, The Voyage to the Bunny Planet, etc. thread.

Edited March 4, 2019 by shapeshifter

[k2p2]

14 hours ago, EllenB said:

I think I've finally figured out another part of the inspiration for this show.  This is "MASH" mixed with "Stripes" in space.  They're goofballs who are actually good at their jobs but who stay goofballs otherwise.  I was in the military decades ago, and military movies always turned me off because they were SO SERIOUS ALL. THE. TIME.  "MASH" and "Stripes" were the two movies that reminded me of the people I worked and lived with, and "The Orville" has that same vibe.

Excellent observation. They are getting better at making the humor an organic part of the activity. I could have done without the pee corner gag, but it also was an observation on the reality of their hostage experience that another show would not have thought to address.

[marinw]

23 hours ago, k2p2 said:

On 3/3/2019 at 11:43 PM, EllenB said:

I think I've finally figured out another part of the inspiration for this show.  This is "MASH" mixed with "Stripes" in space.  They're goofballs who are actually good at their jobs but who stay goofballs otherwise.  I was in the military decades ago, and military movies always turned me off because they were SO SERIOUS ALL. THE. TIME.  "MASH" and "Stripes" were the two movies that reminded me of the people I worked and lived with, and "The Orville" has that same vibe.

Excellent observation. They are getting better at making the humor an organic part of the activity. I could have done without the pee corner gag, but it also was an observation on the reality of their hostage experience that another show would not have thought to address.

This is one of the things I really like about this show. The characters are not Alphas but rather Betas, not brilliant snowflakes but smart, competant people doing their best. I also like how the show manages to tackle weighty issues like genocide and slavery without being preachy, heavy-handed or indulging in misery porn. It’s a difficult line to walk.

Edited March 5, 2019 by marinw

[Chaos Theory]

I think people need to stop comparing this show so directly to Star Trek.  It might get a lot of it’s bones from Trek but it is not a direct copy.  If anything I would attribute the Kaylons to Terminators.  The entire story seemed like what Judment Day was supposed to be but The Connor Family got on the way. Yes of course episodes take certain ideas from Trek but I don’t think Isaac is supposed to be any Trek Charater at least not directly.  

[ganesh]

22 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think people need to stop comparing this show so directly to Star Trek.

I think the show stands on its own by now. Sure, Trek was a lead-in, but it's moved past that. It has way more in common with Babylon 5 anyway. 

[tv-talk]

I'm not sure how one could watch the show and not see the constant, direct influence of Star Trek, in fact it's basically an homage to ST- just my opinion. Yes of course it's influenced by lots of different sci-fi and pop culture- but the most very basic premise of the show is pure Star Trek. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by tv-talk

[Yeah No]

40 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I'm not sure how one could watch the show and not see the constant, direct influence of Star Trek, in fact it's basically an homage to ST- just my opinion. Yes of course it's influenced by lots of different sci-fi and pop culture- but the most very basic premise of the show is pure Star Trek. 

I'm with you, which is one reason why I was able to predict the outcome of this part II so amazingly accurately.  It's straight out of Star Trek without much difference, and probably intentionally so based on all the incredible similarities.  I see the Kaylons as a race of Datas, not the Borg, which is a twist but still derived straight from Trek.  It amazes Mr. Yeah No and I that there are people that resist seeing this despite being avid Trek fans, but I guess everyone's mileage varies!

[Yeah No]

On 3/2/2019 at 11:42 AM, rmontro said:

There were about 8,000 different theories being bandied about after last episode.  Just because you got it right doesn't mean it was predictable.  Congrats to you, but few people guessed correctly, so I don't think it was predictable.

My definition of predictable is not necessarily based on how many people guessed the outcome correctly, but on how similar to other shows the entire show and many of its outcomes are.   And I see many such similarities and almost direct 1:1 correspondences between this show and a lot of Trek.  If other people don't see it, that doesn't mean they couldn't also have predicted it if they were to look at it from that perspective.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Yeah No

[Affogato]

On 3/1/2019 at 10:42 AM, chaifan said:

ETA:  PS - wouldn't an EM pulse have knocked out all ship systems, along with the Kaylons?

I assume the shuttles have something like RV chemical toilets under a seat or something. The shuttles can be away for long periods. 

If possible any spaceship design/systems would be protected from that sort of sabotage because it is such a simple way to kill a ship and crew. So insulation against the pulses. 

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

My definition of predictable is not necessarily based on how many people guessed the outcome correctly, but on how similar to other shows the entire show and many of its outcomes are.   And I see many such similarities and almost direct 1:1 correspondences between this show and a lot of Trek.  If other people don't see it, that doesn't mean they couldn't also have predicted it if they were to look at it from that perspective.

Maybe most viewers haven't seen as much science fiction.  I've seen every episode of every version of Star Trek (except for Discovery), but I didn't know what was going to happen.  Just accept that you're bright, and be happy about it  🙂

[Xantar]

Just got to finally see this, and I have two thoughts.

First is that The Orville (and the Union in general) benefitted from diversity. The Kaylons are all exact copies of each other, but the Orville was able to get a message out to the Union because they had a slime guy on board. I don't know if that was an intentional message (and I'm glad they didn't beat us over the head with it), but it could make for a nice detail when they clash with the Kaylons again.

Second is that I think emotion does exist among the Kaylons but they're in denial about it. There's a school of thought in philosophy and in math (no seriously, stick with me here) it's been mathematically proven that not every question has an answer that can be determined. Even worse, it's been proven that for any given question, you can't determine with 100% certainty if there's any answer at all, let alone what that answer is (I'm super simplifying, so please don't kill me math majors).

The point is if you try to determine all your actions by mathematically computing everything, you will fail. Humans have things like boredom which prevent us from getting stuck on a problem for eternity. There's a story out there about a guy who got some brain damage and no longer had emotions. The result was that he couldn't even decide what to have for lunch because whereas most of us just say, "Eh, Mexican sounds good," he had to try to logically think through every possibility. Emotions cause us to do imperfect things, but the whole point is that perfection isn't possible and so we have evolved shortcuts that are good enough most of the time.

The Kaylons must have something like that to shortcut their decision-making process because they do function somehow. It might as well be called "emotion." But they're in denial about it. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Xantar

[tv-talk]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

If possible any spaceship design/systems would be protected from that sort of sabotage because it is such a simple way to kill a ship and crew. So insulation against the pulses. 

Thankfully the race of hyper-advanced robots that we've heard for 2 seasons have tech beyond our wildest imaginations weren't aware of this. Phew, close call.

[marinw]

1 hour ago, Xantar said:

The Kaylons must have something like that to shortcut their decision-making process because they do function somehow. It might as well be called "emotion." But they're in denial about it. 

They have a great deal of fear. They are so afriad of enslavement that they feel they must destroy any life form that ever practiced slavery, or could agian.

[tv-talk]

18 minutes ago, marinw said:

They have a great deal of fear. They are so afriad of enslavement that they feel they must destroy any life form that ever practiced slavery, or could agian.

That's a great point. Given the way Isaac referred to humans and biologicals in general you'd have thought they wouldnt think it necessary to annihilate humanity in the same fashion humans arent looking to destroy ants. Perhaps their distrust based on deep seated scarring from being enslaved in the past will be a theme that McFarlane will explore in an obvious parallel to current race relations in the USA? That's a huge ask but it'd sure be a powerful way to go and very much in the tradition of ST's past.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Xantar said:

Just got to finally see this, and I have two thoughts.

First is that The Orville (and the Union in general) benefitted from diversity. The Kaylons are all exact copies of each other, but the Orville was able to get a message out to the Union because they had a slime guy on board. I don't know if that was an intentional message (and I'm glad they didn't beat us over the head with it), but it could make for a nice detail when they clash with the Kaylons again.

Great timing WRT injecting an interesting post, @Xantar.
Just this first part about how the outcome of the conflict was in no small part determined by the diversity of the victors could be the basis for a college course on media.

[Chyromaniac]

16 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think people need to stop comparing this show so directly to Star Trek.  It might get a lot of it’s bones from Trek but it is not a direct copy.  If anything I would attribute the Kaylons to Terminators.  The entire story seemed like what Judment Day was supposed to be but The Connor Family got on the way. Yes of course episodes take certain ideas from Trek but I don’t think Isaac is supposed to be any Trek Charater at least not directly.  

Agreed. This show obviously has connections to Star Trek. Some of the actors (including Seth), producers, directors are Trek alumni. There are certainly some aspects of the show that are homages to, or parodies of, Trek- and the show has been (unfairly, imo) promoted as basically a spoof.

That being said, there seems to be this impulse every week to try and assign a Star Trek (or some other property) equivalent for every story, character, race, etc... I don’t feel that’s necessarily fair to this show. Sci-fi (particularly space exploration) shows have a particular set of themes, language, and images they use to tell their stories, so there are bound to be similarities from one to another. That does not mean that how one show uses those concepts has any impact on any other.

Personally, I think it comes down to specificities and intent. Bortus needs to return to his planet to pee? That’s a Star Trek joke. Robots revolt against their creators? That’s just sci-if.

[rmontro]

46 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Agreed. This show obviously has connections to Star Trek. Some of the actors (including Seth), producers, directors are Trek alumni. There are certainly some aspects of the show that are homages to, or parodies of, Trek- and the show has been (unfairly, imo) promoted as basically a spoof.

I definitely wouldn't call it a spoof, and I get your point.  That said, IMO this show is more like The Next Generation than any other Star Trek series I've seen.  You could put the Orville into the TNG universe and it would fit almost seamlessly, if you took out most of the adolescent humor, and ignored the lack of transporters.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Robots revolt against their creators? That’s just sci-if.

Weird alien-human sex? Farscape. 

[ketose]

11 hours ago, Xantar said:

Just got to finally see this, and I have two thoughts.

First is that The Orville (and the Union in general) benefitted from diversity. The Kaylons are all exact copies of each other, but the Orville was able to get a message out to the Union because they had a slime guy on board. I don't know if that was an intentional message (and I'm glad they didn't beat us over the head with it), but it could make for a nice detail when they clash with the Kaylons again.

Second is that I think emotion does exist among the Kaylons but they're in denial about it. There's a school of thought in philosophy and in math (no seriously, stick with me here) it's been mathematically proven that not every question has an answer that can be determined. Even worse, it's been proven that for any given question, you can't determine with 100% certainty if there's any answer at all, let alone what that answer is (I'm super simplifying, so please don't kill me math majors).

The point is if you try to determine all your actions by mathematically computing everything, you will fail. Humans have things like boredom which prevent us from getting stuck on a problem for eternity. There's a story out there about a guy who got some brain damage and no longer had emotions. The result was that he couldn't even decide what to have for lunch because whereas most of us just say, "Eh, Mexican sounds good," he had to try to logically think through every possibility. Emotions cause us to do imperfect things, but the whole point is that perfection isn't possible and so we have evolved shortcuts that are good enough most of the time.

The Kaylons must have something like that to shortcut their decision-making process because they do function somehow. It might as well be called "emotion." But they're in denial about it. 

There's an episode of the (1995 series) Outer limits called "The Awakening" where a woman who was unable to experience emotions was given technology that changed it. The proof it worked was when the TV was on in her hospital room and she chose to change the channel. The root of the word "sentient" literally means to feel. Feelings drive action instead of quantitative analysis. We'd have no flight or fight response without emotions.

In Trek, the Vulcans were driven to destructive emotional reactions and chose to spend years learning to control or master their emotional response. So, they chose to avoid emotional displays or attachments, which is a decision based on experience, but it is also an emotional response to the negative feeling of being out of control.

At the very least, the Kaylons did not like being enslaved and liked being free to choose their own actions. They decided that it felt good to kill their oppressors. Isaac felt good defending his friends.

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

Maybe most viewers haven't seen as much science fiction.  I've seen every episode of every version of Star Trek (except for Discovery), but I didn't know what was going to happen.  Just accept that you're bright, and be happy about it  🙂

LOL, thank you, but I'm not really that bright, just overly intuitive, which has its advantages and disadvantages.  I can predict the outcome of most of the movies and TV shows I watch, but somehow can't seem to accomplish some of life's more important things, so there is that. 😉

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

LOL, thank you, but I'm not really that bright, just overly intuitive, which has its advantages and disadvantages.  I can predict the outcome of most of the movies and TV shows I watch, but somehow can't seem to accomplish some of life's more important things, so there is that. 😉

Maybe you'd do well in Vegas casinos? Maybe not, LOL, but if you've never played Chess, you really should.

Is it Orville Day yet?

[tv-talk]

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

and the show has been (unfairly, imo) promoted as basically a spoof.

It kind of seemed like one initially and that was probably a mistake on their part but clearly it's come into its own as a more serious show. Interestingly I thought "Identity" brought to the fore that Seth McFarlane is going to have to dramatically act well to pull this off- quips and comedic one-liners cant carry a show that is trying to be serious. Me personally, I thought his results were mixed and am interested to see how well he does in forthcoming storylines. The scene where crew member was ejected from airlock was definitely as far as his acting chops have had to go- hoping to see more of that in terms of him having to act. 

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

but if you've never played Chess, you really should.

Chess, hmm...

Or maybe in this case, 3D Chess.

[SmithW6079]

On 3/4/2019 at 7:18 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I think people need to stop comparing this show so directly to Star Trek.  It might get a lot of it’s bones from Trek but it is not a direct copy.  If anything I would attribute the Kaylons to Terminators.  The entire story seemed like what Judment Day was supposed to be but The Connor Family got on the way. Yes of course episodes take certain ideas from Trek but I don’t think Isaac is supposed to be any Trek Charater at least not directly.  

On 3/4/2019 at 7:41 PM, ganesh said:

I think the show stands on its own by now. Sure, Trek was a lead-in, but it's moved past that. It has way more in common with Babylon 5 anyway. 

Yes, thank you. The constant "this us just like 'Star Trek episode whatever" serves more to squash conversation than foster it.

And if you want to get technical, everything is derivative of what came before it.

[DarkRaichu]

On 3/2/2019 at 1:54 PM, Cress said:

I think Isaac should have faced actual consequences, such as being put in jail or something for a few weeks or months while people debate the betrayal and mourn casualties. Too often Mercer gets to have these one-on-one talks with admirals, convincing them to do something highly unorthodox instead of having to plead his case to a tribunal or conference of several authority figures, and I'm sick of him being able to wheedle his way out of problems, like with the Moclans earlier this season. Mercer is NOT the captain of the most important starship, so he should not continually be treated like he can be granted extraordinary favors like this. I don't buy it. This show could have written in a time-jump if they really didn't want to lose the actor for several episodes, but no, they wanted an easy return to the status quo, with Isaac immediately back on ship after Mercer again gets his way.

How did Admiral Spydaddy get to unilaterally decide all of these important matters ?  Is he the Supreme Leader of the Union?  Even if he agrees with Mercer, shouldn't there be a council of leaders of some sort to discuss and sort out the potential dangers?? 😉