Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
kariyaki

S02.E09: Identity, Part II

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, EllenB said:

That was one intense hour!  Whoosh!  So much to love: Yaphit finally being so much more than an annoying blob, the Star Wars nod with Gordon and the Krill pilot (and how brilliantly it paid homage and skewered it simultaneously), adorable Ty being badass adorable Ty, Isaac saving the day in a believable way, the incredible special effects, and so much more.  And I'm wondering if the main Krill guy intentionally sounded like Andrew Robinson/Garek when he told Ed to stay out of the way?

I missed the Star Wars homage. I was thinking how similar the ships were to the 70's Buck Rogers fighters when Gordon  quoted Maverick from Top Gun. Of course he would 

Share this post


Link to post

9 hours ago, EllenB said:

I must be one ancient kid then, because I love it.   Or else I just don't think I'm so special that I'm above it all. 😒

Believe me, I like plenty of average to bad shows with cringy writing. I laugh at Two and a Half Men reruns sometimes. 

Orville fits right in. It isn’t a great show. The writing is hugely uneven. Other than 1-2 episodes that had unusually dark (for ST) endings, it’s been average to bad. I watch it, AND I can admit is often isn’t very good 

I actually enjoy things like “the pee corner.” I just don’t like predictable plots.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Y'know, I haven't commented on the last couple of episodes because I was getting sick of myself sounding like a teenage fanboy, but OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW!

Most of what I would say has already been said, but I'd just like to comment on the Pee Corner: yes, it was funny, but it was also so real, and exactly the kind of grubby, dirty, very human detail that other sf shows, especially space opera, shy away from. 

Loved Yaphet not only getting a ton of screen time, but being the hero! It was great to see another side of our favorite giant snotball! I hope his heroism isn't forgotten next eppy, that he gets a medal, or at least a party.

Interesting that Union command was talking about "deactivating" Isaac -- if you accept him as a sentient being, then you're not deactivating him, you're executing him. He may or may not have deserved execution, but don't dance around the idea with euphemisms.

So "Isaac" = the sacrificial son? Interesting....

So, just to reiterate:  OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW!

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, Gummo said:

Most of what I would say has already been said, but I'd just like to comment on the Pee Corner: yes, it was funny, but it was also so real, and exactly the kind of grubby, dirty, very human detail that other sf shows, especially space opera, shy away from.

I like Orville for this, too, that they point out some obvious issues that other sci-fi shows simply handwaived away.  But, in this instance, I thought the pee corner was stupid.  First, as someone said, there were shuttles that have to have some sort of bathroom on them.  Second, there were tons of cargo containers - one could have been emptied and used (and then closed) instead of just peeing on the floor. 

With things like this I have to wonder what happens in the writing room.  Someone suggests "pee corner", it gets laughs and someone is like, yeah, let's use it.  But no one in the room says, um, don't shuttles have bathrooms?  Or does someone say that and everyone else just thinks the joke is soooo funny no one will think about how stupid the premise is?  It would have been funnier if Kelly, very deadpan, pointed out the shuttles had bathrooms.

ETA:  PS - wouldn't an EM pulse have knocked out all ship systems, along with the Kaylons?

Edited by chaifan
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I hope we get realistic fall out from Isaac and the Kaylons' actions. The crew must have family and friends among the people who died and were injured on the Orville and the rest of the Union fleet. I would expect some people ostracizing Isaac, maybe even an attempt to deactivate him out of fear that he would betray them again.

Like some others I was surprised by Yapit being one of the heroes. I generally find him annoying, but he was enjoyable last night.

As for the claims that the episode was predictable, as the axiom goes there are only seven basic different types of stories that we tell. So if predictability is the standard by which you judge your enjoyment or quality of a story, you might as well never watch another tv show, read another book or attend another play or show again because you are doomed to be always disappointed.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post

Quote

Thank goodness for unsecured and reasonably sized ventilation tubes.

Design-wise, it didn't really make much sense to have tubes that big with openings to them that small. Clearly there was enough room for adults to crawl through them, but not openings big enough to get into them.

The other thing that bugged me is nobody raised the argument in favor of evolution. If the Kaylons were that familiar with Earth history they should have at least understood the concept of human evolution and the argument that humans had evolved past slavery. (I hope. By then.)

That said, this was a damn impressive episode and I'd hate to be an epileptic watching that battle scene because it was such an assault of color and visuals it could surely give one seizures. It must have cost a fortune.

The Krill look suspiciously like the Jem'Hadar.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
28 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I would expect some people ostracizing Isaac, maybe even an attempt to deactivate him out of fear that he would betray them again.

I wonder what the fallout will be in Isaac's own head -- he is obviously evolving into a being with some rudimentary emotions and conscience and he just betrayed, almost to species death, people who took him in, trusted him, befriended him and made him part of the family (in the Finns' case, quite literally). I wouldn't be surprised if at some point, Dr. Finn has to treat Isaac for the robotic equivalent of depression or even suicidal tendencies.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Ottis said:

Some damn predictable writing maybe. Go back and look at the thread for last week. This “surprise” was predicted by, well, everyone. That made it... predictable. 

This episode made me realize that, like Star Wars, Orville is for kids. Maybe teens. Easy to watch, not very deep. Nothing wrong with that. Guilty pleasure I think. 

I mean, off the top of my head, 1) there is no reason that AI life forms would have to retrieve each other in person for a meeting, 2) nor would they not realize that a whole group of them, including the leader, were out of commission at once, 3) the inconsistency of what weapons beat the Krylons and which ones didn’t was amusing, however 4) apparently the Krill would kick Earth’s ass based on how effective they were. 

Yay Yaphrit, though. 

Predictable doesn't have to mean terrible.  If done right (actors and directors know what they are doing), it can still be enjoyable. 

If it wasn't, I'd have quit watching American television and movies years ago, in favor of European stuff.  As it is, I frequently get told I'm not allowed to talk when watching American made stuff because the plot twists and writing is nearly always choreographed. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, AEMom said:

At least a regular sized person could crawl through a Jeffries tube. What happens when something breaks down in there and needs repair? 

Maybe that's one reason Yaphet is in engineering.

Yaphet's next line: "Claire, Isaac didn't work out well as a boyfriend, huh? I'm still interested, and I saved Ty and the ship too!"

Isaac was ordered to choose a different name, although they probably would just assign him one if he needed one. What name might he have chosen? Maybe Galileo.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Miles said:

But shouldn't they have followed the Kaelons? wiped out their flett and production facilities? They are robots. They can build new ships way faster than biologicals can. what's stopping them from coming back in a month with an overwhelming force? This doesn't seem well thought out.

Only when plot needs them. I mean look at the long stretches it took the Borg to fight back to take over Earth.

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, they spared no expense on the space battle, huh?  I wonder how much all that cost?  Then again, I'm pretty sure that Seth MacFarlane's can pretty much ask FOX for anything amount at this point, and they'll right the check, considering how much he's likely made for the network.

Glad Admiral Victor Garber survived!

While the show was certainly willing to have real cost here, I wonder if Seth ever considered having a recurring character get spaced instead of a random ensign. 

I'm banking on FOX giving Seth whatever he wants. We need a 3rd season and a renewal has not been announced as of yet. Compared to Discovery, I am really enjoying Orville more and find Discovery not so Trek.

So happy Admiral Victor Garber survived as well!

Hey, you cannot have a space battle without an unknown red shirt (or TNG & later) gold die. 

Share this post


Link to post

Is it weird that I am still shipping Claire and Isaac?

i thought having the final scene being between them was very bittersweet.

i hope those crazy kids work things out. 

OTP!  OTP!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

It didn’t look like they were allowed to get in the shuttles at all, let alone to use the can. They didn’t go for trying to get on it until they took out the Kaylon guards first. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Gummo said:

OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW!

Me too!!!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, benteen said:

I don't think having a kill switch was too much to ask

Especially since it's not really a "kill" switch; it's more of a "nap" switch.
When Ed equated a kill/nap switch with what caused the Kaylon to rebel (being treated like slaves), I knew something about that didn't quite fit. The Kaylon felt enslaved when they were given pain receptors to force them to labor.
Heck, "time out" is an approved method of discipline for children, just as is "paid administrative leave" for government employees.
 

5 hours ago, benteen said:

They really went all out with the battle scene.  It was awesome and yeah, it must have cost a fortune.  My one problem with it was that there was so much going on that it was hard to follow. 

I can never follow battle scenes.
 

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Now I like how Ty helped out at the end but it's a little hard for me to dismiss "Stupid Kid Syndrome" where he absolutely can't grasp how serious the situation is (and he's been in a series situation before last season) and nearly gets Talla killed.  Not letting him off the hook there.

 "Stupid Kid Syndrome" is exactly how I felt about Ty's actions, but:

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

This is hardly a case of a kid acting stupid.  I mean he IS a kid who almost literally  five minutes earlier was calling Isaac his new daddy.   Kids can’t turn off their emotions that quickly.  If he did everyone would be complaining about Ty and the “wise beyond their years” trope.    

@Chaos Theory is right with regards to cognitive development.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Is it weird that I am still shipping Claire and Isaac?

I think Yaphet has earned a second chance at a date with Claire (if she's interested), especially since he and Ty have bonded, and he saved Ty's life too.
Plus, I will never forget how much season one Claire seemed to enjoy Yaphet's unique love making abilities. I know she was "under the influence" at the time, but if she was consenting to it, it might be even better. 
But I wouldn't want Yaphet's heart broken if he was just a rebound.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, kirkola said:

Predictable doesn't have to mean terrible.  If done right (actors and directors know what they are doing), it can still be enjoyable. 

If it wasn't, I'd have quit watching American television and movies years ago, in favor of European stuff.  As it is, I frequently get told I'm not allowed to talk when watching American made stuff because the plot twists and writing is nearly always choreographed. 

True. It just means it is derivative and uninspiring. Great shows are about ideas and challenges and surprises, which makes great sci-fi so wonderful. Orville could be so much better with just a  little more effort and thinking.

It’s not an American thing. It’s a quality thing. 

The visuals are quite good though. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But wasn't it all about Ty every time Isaac questioned the Primary's methods? Or at least all about not wacking biological lifeforms? 

They kind of dropped the ball on Isaac having to choose a new name, or was that on purpose?
  

I wondered about that too, but decided (fanwanked) that even though Primary's voice conveyed way too much emotion, it was more a matter of preventing future enslavement in which pain receptors would be used for torture.

But wouldn't preventing pain sensations have made more sense? IDK.

My question is “why not just disable the pain sensors then?”

It is funny how last week quite a few here didn’t like the obvious idea of Issac being the savior, yet it happened, and so many enjoy it.

I think a simulation or anything else more imaginative would have been better.  Isaac being saved by Yaphit was also too Hollywood of an ending for me.

I still like the show and its dark turns!  Enough of the Ed/Kelly romance crap!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

11 minutes ago, Ottis said:

True. It just means it is derivative and uninspiring. Great shows are about ideas and challenges and surprises, which makes great sci-fi so wonderful. Orville could be so much better with just a  little more effort and thinking.

It’s not an American thing. It’s a quality thing. 

The visuals are quite good though. 

See I disagree with that.  I think shows try too hard to be surprising and that has gotten uninspiring and derivative and often shows get in there own way trying to challenge the viewers when they could have just told a good story.  

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Quote

I'm banking on FOX giving Seth whatever he wants. 

TV shows have double the budget when they do a two-parter which is why you see better FX in them. That said, the battle scene was extensive and more elaborate than I would expect, and impressive too. It's possible the show socked away enough the whole season to pay for that. 

I doubt Fox just hands Seth a blank check any time he asks for it. They have to budget these things out no matter what show it is. But if they know when they start planning out the season there's going to be one huge battle scene they can set aside a certain amount in advance to plan for that. It just comes out of the other episodes.

  • Like 1
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post

That was a great episode. But I have some complains.

1. How was Ed able to carry Talla? Shouldn't she be very heavy. Her body density should be very high given the gravity of her planet.

2. Isaac's fate shouldn't be discussed in an office between the admiral and captain Mercer. That is not very democratic. Isaac should prosecuted. Ted can defend him in a court if he wants but the union legal system should decide what happens to him. I don't condemn Isaac but legally there should be consequences for what he did. Many people died.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post

Wow! Mayor Quimby must have done some fantastic things as Mayor of Springfield to get a ship named after him! Who would have thunk it?

Share this post


Link to post
23 minutes ago, GustavMahler said:

Wow! Mayor Quimby must have done some fantastic things as Mayor of Springfield to get a ship named after him! Who would have thunk it?

Vote Quimby !!

Stephen Hawking also got a shipped named after him (unfortunately it was destroyed).

  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Bravo Seth!!!!!!

I don't want to hear "I guessed it" or "bad writing" or any of the other complaints. I watch to be entertained and I was, so again, bravo Seth!

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post

After all the conjecture that went on after the last episode, I have to admit that they wrote their way out of it in a pretty acceptable way.  The EMP pulse did seem a bit contrived, and I have to echo an above poster's question:  Shouldn't it have knocked out all ship's systems?  Assuming that Earth had solved the potential problem of EMPs and put in safeguards, you would think that the Kaylons would have also.

This episode did feel a little anticlimactic after last week's jaw dropper though.

I laughed at the pee corner, is that wrong?

Also thought it was funny that the Kaylons were judging Earth's culture by their own standards, just as Ed and the crew judge other alien cultures by their standards.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
29 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I laughed at the pee corner, is that wrong?

Bad @rmontro! Bad, bad, very bad rmontro!
  

30 minutes ago, rmontro said:

The EMP pulse

Shouldn't they now be able to rig up a satellite equipped to wipe out all future invading Kaylons with EMPs?
Or at least until the Kaylons figure out how to counter it.
And that wouldn't do anything to prevent nukes from space.
Better to quickly go to planet Kaylon and deliver a ginormous EMP, wiping out all Kaylons,* ending the episode with a photo-montage superimposing masses of lifeless Kaylons over the masses of biologicals' bones.
_________________
*except Isaac, who will then be truly alone--until he goes evil with jealously when Yaphet and Claire hook up up, and Isaac produces clones of himself.

  • Like 2
  • Laugh 1

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But wasn't it all about Ty every time Isaac questioned the Primary's methods? Or at least all about not wacking biological lifeforms? 

They kind of dropped the ball on Isaac having to choose a new name, or was that on purpose?
  

I wondered about that too, but decided (fanwanked) that even though Primary's voice conveyed way too much emotion, it was more a matter of preventing future enslavement in which pain receptors would be used for torture.

But wouldn't preventing pain sensations have made more sense? IDK.

My take on this was that Isaac as a neutral observer, found that humans / the Union to be respectful of the others and generally treated him as well (or badly) as any other crew member. The old Kaylons, on the other hand, were engaging in confirmation bias. Their experience with biologicals is that they will disrespect and enslave AIs. So, any evidence that confirms their bias (roots, Mr. Potato Head) is important and contrary evidence is unreliable.

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

I like Orville for this, too, that they point out some obvious issues that other sci-fi shows simply handwaived away.  But, in this instance, I thought the pee corner was stupid.  First, as someone said, there were shuttles that have to have some sort of bathroom on them.  Second, there were tons of cargo containers - one could have been emptied and used (and then closed) instead of just peeing on the floor. 

With things like this I have to wonder what happens in the writing room.  Someone suggests "pee corner", it gets laughs and someone is like, yeah, let's use it.  But no one in the room says, um, don't shuttles have bathrooms?  Or does someone say that and everyone else just thinks the joke is soooo funny no one will think about how stupid the premise is?  It would have been funnier if Kelly, very deadpan, pointed out the shuttles had bathrooms.

ETA:  PS - wouldn't an EM pulse have knocked out all ship systems, along with the Kaylons?

Actually, Gordon never said they peed on the floor. They might have created an above ground latrine with a cargo container. Even then, you'd want that thing in a corner, rather than in the middle of the shuttle bay.

Yeah, the EMP through the communications system was technobabble. EMPs are the result of energetic sources (like a nuclear reaction) and radiate an all directions.

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I hope we get realistic fall out from Isaac and the Kaylons' actions. The crew must have family and friends among the people who died and were injured on the Orville and the rest of the Union fleet. I would expect some people ostracizing Isaac, maybe even an attempt to deactivate him out of fear that he would betray them again.

I still remember what Sisko said to Picard about how they met at Wolf 359.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

We HAVE to get another season.  I just can’t leave this series without finally  hearing Bortus sing My Heart Will Go On.  “You will listen!!”

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, ketose said:

Gordon never said they peed on the floor. They might have created an above ground latrine with a cargo container. Even then, you'd want that thing in a corner, rather than in the middle of the shuttle bay

I thought his declaration about the Pee Corner being an unpleasant place that you wouldn’t want to be in unless you had to implied that it was pretty much just a corner full of pee. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I thought his declaration about the Pee Corner being an unpleasant place that you wouldn’t want to be in unless you had to implied that it was pretty much just a corner full of pee. 

I did too, but now I'm recalling an apartment I had across the hall from a "restroom" used by the barbershop downstairs. It had a toilet and--I guess--not much else. Whenever the door was opened the aroma was much like what Gordon described. So, even if there was a bucket in the corner, there would likely be splashing.
Anyway, regarding:

22 hours ago, kariyaki said:

If I were Ed, Isaac's first task upon returning to the crew would be to hose out the Pee Corner. 

That would not only be the opposite of Ed's protocol of treating Isaac the opposite of how the first-gen Kaylon robots were treated by their oppressors, but it would likely have a very bad outcome.
But you know that, right, @kariyaki?
I'm having trouble parsing the comedy and drama here.
  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

That would not only be the opposite of Ed's protocol of treating Isaac the opposite of how the first-gen Kaylon robots were treated by their oppressors, but it would likely have a very bad outcome.
But you know that, right, @kariyaki?
I'm having trouble parsing the comedy and drama here.

Not necessarily. I would expect that Isaac understands that if you do something bad/wrong, you might get a shit job (no pun intended) as punishment. That’s not the same as slavery. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, kariyaki said:

Not necessarily. I would expect that Isaac understands that if you do something bad/wrong, you might get a shit job (no pun intended) as punishment. That’s not the same as slavery. 

Plus, a non-biological would be unaffected by biological waste.

  • Like 1
  • Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Design-wise, it didn't really make much sense to have tubes that big with openings to them that small. Clearly there was enough room for adults to crawl through them, but not openings big enough to get into them.

The Krill look suspiciously like the Jem'Hadar.

I was wondering if Yaphit and Ty in the ducts/tubes was a nod to Star Wars and Galaxy Quest.

Jem'Hadar without almonds!  Maybe a crossbreed of Jem'Hadar and Cardassians.

Good grief, my auto-correct fills in "Cardassians" for me.  I gotta get a life.

  • Like 1
  • Laugh 7

Share this post


Link to post

From the Part 1 thread:

On 2/23/2019 at 12:06 PM, Tyro49 said:

Why aren't some crewmembers, and kids, hiding out in the access ducts, planning how to take back the ship?

@Tyro49 should get a corner piece of cake with a rose.

  • Like 2
  • Laugh 4

Share this post


Link to post

For Ed when it comes to Isaac it comes down to forgiving him or not.   He was right when he told the admiral putting controls on Isaac would just prove Prime right.  If Ed suddenly starts punishing Isaac in any real way he might as well have left him on Earth.    Of course the crew is probably going to be weary of him for a long time but Ed needs to make a choice as captain.  Trust him or don't.

I like the way the Kaylons are being portrayed.  Artificial Lifeforms but not interconnected.  They aren't the Borg.   They don't hear each others thoughts.  So Isaac is capable of free will and being born after the builders of his people died he has no frame of reference for the hatred that Prime feels.  For him the only Biologicals he knows are the crew of The Orville and they for the most part are honorable so he probably sent very good reports that Prime ignored.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

I am 100% here for Gordon channeling his inner Top Gun in his little Krill fighter jet. That he used both the line (""Just a walk in the park Kazansky!") and the iconic teeth snapping move? Full marks.

  • Like 2
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post

On 2/28/2019 at 10:01 PM, SimoneS said:

Outstanding episode. I really enjoyed these two episodes. The Orville has been such a surprise.  

Damn, the Kaylons don’t play. The Union ships took a hell of a beating. It will take them years to recover. I am glad that they didn’t kill Victor Garber’s character.

Go Isaac with your badass self. I hadn’t realized that Ty and Marcus had been captured. Ty is the most adorable little boy.

Knowing that the actors who play Gordon and Kelly being engaged in real life cracks me up.

Gordon is such an idiot, but I appreciated the homage to Luke in the rebel fighter by having him in the Krill fighter.

Hold up the guy who plays Gordon Snagged that Goregous creature known as Adrianne Palicki? Didnt know that and that lucky SOB lol

  • Like 1
  • Laugh 3

Share this post


Link to post
47 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

Hold up the guy who plays Gordon Snagged that Goregous creature known as Adrianne Palicki? Didnt know that and that lucky SOB lol

Yep, he did. Check out the media thread. 

Share this post


Link to post

Very much a Star Wars vibe- krill showing up just in time was JUST like Han Solo showing up after Luke thougghtvhed left. And Gordon whooped just like Luke did in the tie fighters.

that said they both borrow from westerns and the cavalry coming over the hill trope. It freaking ALWAYS works, like when Gandalf shows up in the Two Towers and says “not alone.”

In 1977 we all cheered when Han Solo showed up then cheered again when the Death Star blew up then applauded at the end of the film. 

nice to see that that the people who die are actually wearing red shirts.

anyone catch the Paul McCartney joke in there being an admiral Halsey? (I think it may be last episode)

The Kaylon are not logical. Why do they have to kill ALL biological to make room for themselves? Where is the logic in being the aggressor? Their whole plot depended on secrecy- not one message going out to any Union species. Hardly airtight.

Also how is genocide somehow better than enslavement? Isn’t it a little bizarre to assume all biological species are like human beings?

Vengeance seems to me to be as much of an emotion as sympathy.

that moment where Isaac ripped Primary’s head off was fantastic. “I will not let them harm you.” Spoken like a dad (as was his be sure and get your nutrie last week).

will the kaylon have a new primate now and who is it?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I'm one of those that predicted the outcome of this 2 parter and yet when it was over I realized I didn't care how predictable it was because it was done so well.  That's actually a hard thing to achieve and I'm impressed.  Could it have been better?  Well, anything could be better but it was still damned good.

I remember Data going over to the dark side in one episode (with Lore, I think) and then redeeming himself.  The crew trusted him after that, although his programming was restored to normal after being tampered with which made trusting him easier.  Nonetheless I see no reason not to trust Isaac since he would surely be deactivated if he ever set foot near his home world again.  Plus I think he has evolved as a person in a different direction than the rest of his species. 

I also think I recall the Romulans being allied with Starfleet in one episode of STNG.  Was it against the Borg?  I forget.

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

The Kaylon are not logical. Why do they have to kill ALL biological to make room for themselves? Where is the logic in being the aggressor? Their whole plot depended on secrecy- not one message going out to any Union species. Hardly airtight.

I agree, they're not logical.  They're warping logic to justify evil actions based on emotions.  Obviously they have emotions but are unaware that they have them and that they are influencing their use of logic to make decisions.  But this has been true of Isaac himself all along, only in his case he mostly uses logic to justify good actions.  That's why I knew he would redeem himself and save the Orville in the end.  I think that being around decent humans has trained him to use his logic toward good ends.  It's a lesson in ethics, because logic is often used to justify either good or evil ends by humans too.

  • Like 6
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I'm one of those that predicted the outcome of this 2 parter and yet when it was over I realized I didn't care how predictable it was because it was done so well.  That's actually a hard thing to achieve and I'm impressed.  Could it have been better?  Well, anything could be better but it was still damned good.

I remember Data going over to the dark side in one episode (with Lore, I think) and then redeeming himself.  The crew trusted him after that, although his programming was restored to normal after being tampered with which made trusting him easier.  Nonetheless I see no reason not to trust Isaac since he would surely be deactivated if he ever set foot near his home world again.  Plus I think he has evolved as a person in a different direction than the rest of his species. 

That was Descent Part 2, which is what I compared this episode to. There was also Hugh, the Borg who was angry at most humans, but drew the line when Lore started torturing Geordi, much like Isaac with Ty.

  • Like 1
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Nonetheless I see no reason not to trust Isaac since he would surely be deactivated if he ever set foot near his home world again

Taking your "I see no reason" as an invitation to suggest a reason, @Yeah No, perhaps there is intended foreshadowing in the scene in which Isaac being told by one of the dying fellow Kaylons he had just killed that he would "always be alone" followed soon by the scene in which Claire finds him seemingly longing for his home planet. That is, perhaps Isaac will be overwhelmed with a desire to be with his fellow Kaylons again at any cost. [Du-un, da dun du-un]

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

agree, they're not logical.  They're warping logic to justify evil actions based on emotions.  Obviously they have emotions but are unaware that they have them and that they are influencing their use of logic to make decisions.  But this has been true of Isaac himself all along, only in his case he mostly uses logic to justify good actions.  That's why I knew he would redeem himself and save the Orville in the end.  I think that being around decent humans has trained him to use his logic toward good ends.  It's a lesson in ethics, because logic is often used to justify either good or evil ends by humans too.

I wonder is the OG Kaylons failing to see how their emotions are influencing their decisions will become a plot point. The Krill and the Moclans have similar denial issues—as do Ed and Kelly. I'm not sure if these scripts are supposed to be psycho-therapeutic for the writers and the audience, or if these frequent demonstrations of emotional dichotomies are just a natural result of comedy writers who are writing drama.

Okay. That made more sense when my daughter and I were discussing it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
22 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

That was Carlos Bernard as Captain Marcos of the Roosevelt -- none other than Tony Almeida from '24' -- I guess he won't be back in a recurring role.

Well, Tony came back from the dead on '24," so who knows - we may yet see him again!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/1/2019 at 7:39 AM, shapeshifter said:

They kind of dropped the ball on Isaac having to choose a new name, or was that on purpose?

That was kind of odd that they never went anywhere with that.  Maybe it got edited out.

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I'm one of those that predicted the outcome of this 2 parter and yet when it was over I realized I didn't care how predictable it was because it was done so well. 

There were about 8,000 different theories being bandied about after last episode.  Just because you got it right doesn't mean it was predictable.  Congrats to you, but few people guessed correctly, so I don't think it was predictable.

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

From the Part 1 thread:

@Tyro49 should get a corner piece of cake with a rose.

Thank you! 😁 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That was kind of odd that they never went anywhere with that.  Maybe it got edited out.

I thought that was just another way that the Primary was trying to get Isaac to shed any remaining connections he had with the biologicals.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I thought that was just another way that the Primary was trying to get Isaac to shed any remaining connections he had with the biologicals.

Well yeah, but then Isaac never changed his name, and Primary never asked him about it again (maybe he didn't have a chance).  So there was never any real resolution to the issue.  I thought we'd get a scene where Isaac would be referred to as C71, or whatever.  It just never went anywhere.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

My secret prediction power had to do with the fact that "Ed negotiates with the Krill" description was already published when Identity Part 1 came out. Now that the show has an arc, I assumed the Krill story was because the Krill were going to lend a hand. There was a 0% chance the Kaylon were going to destroy earth, but it was maybe 2-1 that Isaac was going to leave the show. Once you set the parameters, the outcome falls into place, but you still wan to see the badass battle scene.

I think that the Kaylons wanted Isaac to spend more time analyzing the humans but dating Dr. Finn compromised him in their eyes and felt that Isaac might eventually reveal "the plan." It may also mean the Kaylons were less prepared than they could be and only prepared as much as their arrogance let them believe they needed to be.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Well yeah, but then Isaac never changed his name, and Primary never asked him about it again (maybe he didn't have a chance).  So there was never any real resolution to the issue.  I thought we'd get a scene where Isaac would be referred to as C71, or whatever.  It just never went anywhere.

I don't think that the new name was the point in itself. To me, it served to demonstrate that the Kaylons were  no better than their "masters".

Isaac, in his time with humans, had developed separately from the rest of the Kaylons. When he demonstrated his new reasoning, he had to be pulled back into towing the line. His thoughts and reasoning were dismissed by the Primary and the Primary constantly tried to force Isaac into the behaviour the Primary thought acceptable just as the Kaylon masters tried to force the Kaylons into continuing their servitude. That ended just as well for the masters as it did for Primary.

  • Like 7
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size