S05.E08: Nothing's Shocking

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Bullock's past comes back to haunt him when he and Gordon investigate two murders at Sirens. Meanwhile, Bruce and Alfred explore the tunnels beneath the city, and Penguin and Nygma's plans to escape are thwarted by the least likely of suspects.

Promo:

Original air date: 2/28/19

[Miss Dee]

Topic's not locked? Okay then - I am not spoiled, so I predict Ed the dog prevents Nygmobblepot from escaping.

[Lantern7]

Nice set of plots. Bruce and Alfred go hunting in the poisoned sewers, Harvey deals with his past . . . and Oswald's faithful manservant comes back, only now he takes orders from a wooden dummy.

Yes, he was Arnold Wesker, perhaps one of the most sympathetic villains in Batman canon. Gotta love Oswald and Ed dealing with the fresh new psychotic hell threatening to undo their plans. Sadly, after Oswald blows Scarface's head off and Arnold starts apologizing, Ed shoots and kills Arnold. Such a waste . . . but then we got the sweet bonding moment between the most notorious frenemies of Gotham.

Hey, Gotham had their own Crazy Jane for an episode. Shapeshifting effects were creepy but effective. While Harvey and Jim don't hug it out afterward, I'm touched Harvey admits that Jim made him a better cop. I was thinking that would happen last season after Harvey screwed the pooch as captain, but better late than never.

[opus]

Alright, Scarface and The Ventriloquist!

At least for a little while.....

[tennisgurl]

Scarface AND The Ventriloquist?! Oh Gotham, you didnt have to get me anything as a goodbye present! Yeah we didnt get them for long, but I love getting more and more of the famously bizarre Batman rouges gallery before we close out!

I mean, when even Ed is like "this guy is clearly out of his mind!" you know you might be one card short of the deck, in that special, wacky Gotham way. I was freaking dying at Oswald and Eds faces when his former manservant pulled that puppet out! I mean, even by Gotham standards, thats a pretty weird flex. And Jane Doe was super creepy, the actress did a good job with her. 

I love how the title is basically like "crazy people in the sewers? creepy girl who can change shape? murderous dummy that talks like a 1930s gangster? Just another day in Gotham!" 

I mean, I assumed that the wife killed her husband because he was abusive (thats the only reason women kill their husbands on TV and in the movies) but the whole backstory with the cops really shows how bad things were in the GCPD before the show started. Also nice to get some Harvey backstory and see his old partner again from several seasons back. Things might be a little tense between them, but it was really sweet when Harvey told Jim that he made him a better cop. 

Of course Penguin and Ed bond over murdering a guy, and cackling about how crazy they both are. Oh those crazy kids!

[HoodlumSheep]

The Scarface and Ventriloquist plot was fun. 

Harvey :'( i wanna give him a big hug. You could feel how crushed he was when he shot her. Ugh. Donal logue can really nail the serious and emotional scenes when he's given the opportunity. Makes me sad he didn't get more meaty plots throughout the show's run. 

Least favorite plot was bruce and alfred's. It wasn't bad...it just felt like it was kinda just there to give them something to do.  

[PinkRibbons]

This one gave me such nostalgia for Batman: The Animated Series. When Penn turned out to be The Ventriloquist I gasped so hard I nearly choked and it was perfect. And they follow it up with what is clearly an homage to Calendar Girl with the murderous former model who can no longer see how beautiful she is!

They need to dial Bruce's hair down a little, he looks like a Bat could just come flying out of there and give him the last bit of inspiration.

[festivus]

I really thought this season was going to be the balls to the wall crazy the show usually is but I'm just bored with anything that isn't Pengy and Ed. I want them to go on a PeeWee's big adventure roadtrip.

 I did enjoy Mr. Scarface. Otherwise, meh.

[thuganomics85]

Penn still being alive (well, briefly!) and being this show's version of the Ventriloquist and Scarface was actually a pretty nice twist!  I see that the show is making sure they go through all of Batman's rogue gallery before its too late!  Oswald and Nygma's reaction to all of it was great, and, of course, it ends with them both cackling together after Nygma shoots him in the head.  Oh, you two!

Certainly not going to complain about Bullock getting some focused, and both Donal Logue and the actress playing Jane were great.  Cool seeing Dix again too.  I wonder if he realized that it was Jane at the end, or were his last thoughts being him thinking it was Bullock that was killing him?

Barbara's reaction to seeing Fake Barbara was perfect and made it totally obvious that she was the real Barbara, heh.

The Bruce/Alfred plot kind of felt like filler, but I did like it leading to Alfred feeling like he failed Bruce with the Wayne Manor blowing up, and Bruce reassuring him that he still needs him.

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Jane Doe was super creepy, the actress did a good job with her. 

According to IMDB, she was Sarah Pidgeon. I agree, she did very well.

[Kostgard]

I was listening to a podcast recently where they were talking about a show (not Gotham) and said the show was written like the writer of one episode hates the writer of the previous episode, so they just undo everything that’s been done or ignores it. I’m really thinking Gotham’s writers room has this problem (see the whole "We've just gonna pretend Lee wasn't hooking up with the Riddler" thing). 

Last episode Jim was treating Barbara like something he found on the bottom of his shoe, and acted like he wished she would just go away. Now he’s insisting on being part of the baby’s life. What fueled this change? 

This episode and the next episode are the “bonus” episodes - the ones where Fox ordered them kinda late in the game and they had to run back and write more. I’m fine that it doesn’t push the plot forward that far, but spend the time developing the characters. If Jim is making this shift, show us how.

Nice moment with Alfred and Bruce, but their storyline didn’t do much, either. I really wish they’d develop the whole Batman thing more.

Nice to have some focus on Harvey. Donal Logue is so good, and has been so underused. I’m glad they spent time with him (though I could do without Jim’s air of superiority he always puts on when he’s lecturing Harvey on all his faults. Dude. Just be a friend).

How did Penn survive? Who knows! But no one in Gotham takes a pulse, apparently. It was fun to have him back, and fun that the actor got to show off his ventriloquist skills.

But the best part for me was Oswald and Ed bickering like an old married couple. I hope they have genuinely buried the hatchet and we don’t have another situation where the writer of the next episode hates this episode’s writer and will completely undo that the next episode. These two are fun together. Let them be fun together for a while.

ETA: Now that it's rattled around in my brain a bit, even though the Oswald/Ed stuff was fun, it still suffers from the "I'm going to ignore/change everything that came before it" problem in regards to Oswald. Oswald does tend to forget the names of people he considers insignificant (see the whole Isabel/Isabella thing from season three). So they had him calling Penn "Andrew" when his name is Arthur. But...Oswald clearly doesn't see Penn as insignificant. He cares about him on some level. He was hurt by Penn leaving him and by his death. He was glad to see him back and immediately called off the bodyguard before discerning what Penn wanted. When given the opportunity, he did not shoot Penn. He turned the gun away and shot the dummy instead (when shooting Penn would absolutely have solved his problem). They did that to roll into Ed complaining that Oswald will hurt anyone to get what he wants. That's Ed's favorite dead horse to beat. But historically, that doesn't hold water, either. Oswald went to prison to protect Jim. He went to prison again to protect Martin. When Tabby and Barbara came to kill him in the premiere, he gave them both the opportunity to stop and walk away (neither of them took it) when he could have just had his minions shoot them on sight. 

Is Oswald manipulative, opportunistic and generally kind of an a-hole? Yes. But they keep saying that he just runs all over everyone with no regard for anyone other than himself, when they keep showing him doing the opposite. Probably more so than any other character on the show. I get that they want to end the show with him as a total monster, but they need to actually show that, and not just tell us he's a monster. Also, don't make him stupid just to try to get this stuff across when historically he hasn't been stupid. He learned in season one that he could get Maroni's men to come over to his side by offering better compensation. He should have known that starving his minions while he fed his dog steak would only encourage the same kind of rebellion. If he is going to be stupid or blind to these things, write a reason for it. Don't just shrug "I don't know/care what happened before, but this is what's happening now!"

Edited March 1, 2019 by Kostgard

[darkestboy]

Aside from killing him off again, I really did dig the show's take on Ventriloquist and Scarface. His scenes with Oswald and Edward were a delight, even if the episode didn't really advance.

Wasn't too familiar with Jane Doe from the comics but it did seem like they merged elements of Clayface and Calendar Girl in with her. Good guest performance and I did like the show revisiting some of Bullock's past as well.

Does Barbara deserve a chance of redemption? I'm not sure but it does seem that the show is going to go there nonetheless.

The Bruce/Alfred scenes were good but felt like filler. The show's take on Killer Croc (assuming that was it) wasn't bad though, 7/10

[GustavMahler]

Hands up who thought it was Killer Croc in the sewer! I am not sure he was supposed to be a variant of him though, just a red herring....

Edited March 1, 2019 by GustavMahler

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 2/28/2019 at 9:07 PM, Lantern7 said:

Yes, he was Arnold Wesker, perhaps one of the most sympathetic villains in Batman canon. Gotta love Oswald and Ed dealing with the fresh new psychotic hell threatening to undo their plans. Sadly, after Oswald blows Scarface's head off and Arnold starts apologizing, Ed shoots and kills Arnold.

Ah, so that's why Penguin twice called Mr. Penn "Arnold" by mistake when his name was actually Arthur. A mythology gag. At least he got it right the first time the third time.

On 2/28/2019 at 9:57 PM, tennisgurl said:

I mean, I assumed that the wife killed her husband because he was abusive (thats the only reason women kill their husbands on TV and in the movies)

Sometimes it's for their money.

On 2/28/2019 at 11:00 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder if he realized that it was Jane at the end, or were his last thoughts being him thinking it was Bullock that was killing him?

I think he realized, because he knew she was a shapeshifter at that point, and she referred to "the kid", meaning Bullock.

21 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Is Oswald manipulative, opportunistic and generally kind of an a-hole? Yes. But they keep saying that he just runs all over everyone with no regard for anyone other than himself, when they keep showing him doing the opposite.

Well, he did hire people to steal a lot of treasure and then kill them all, though that was offscreen.

[jay741982]

7 hours ago, GustavMahler said:

Hands up who thought it was Killer Croc in the sewer! I am not sure he was supposed to be a variant of him though, just a red herring....

I did! 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, GustavMahler said:

Hands up who thought it was Killer Croc in the sewer! I am not sure he was supposed to be a variant of him though, just a red herring....

So did I at first!

[paigow]

Hugo Strange should get a Nobel Prize for mutant research...He can create an army of Mystiques

Why was Harvey the only cop at the Cartwright house? Did Jim think Jane was going to Sirens???

[superloislane]

Wow did they go all the way back to season 1 for a previously on clip? That can't be good!

Barbara is definitely showing her pregnancy now. How long has it been since episode 7 since Barbara had a very flat belly then and now she has a full on pregnant belly?

I like Bruce taking on a case without Gordon - but Bruce's hair seems to be getting bigger with every passing episode - it must be where he keeps his secrets

Penguin's face when he saw the dummy was amazing

It makes no sense for Harvey to be holding back information - how many times have both he and Jim been dirty and they both know about it - why would this be any different? I mean Jim himself has done FAR dirtier stuff than this!

Beat cops and henchmen are seriously the red shirts of this show

Did Hugo Strange create everything that ever happened in Gotham or something? He seems to be responsible for EVERYTHING!

Did Bruce just get his inspiration for his batarangs? Damn you Gotham for making me think it was going to be Killer Croc down there!

The Ventriloquist is an actual Batman villain but I guess he's just dead already? That's too bad - he was so much fun and I loved that it was Penn!

I might need some tissues because Bruce/Alfred is giving me serious feels! But come on - they couldn't have given them something more that actually developed the Batman plot rather than just filler?

The girl playing Jane Doe is a very good actress - even behind a mask for most of the episode

This was a nice enough episode which shed some light on Harvey and his dirty cop past but we already knew enough about that and he already had his big redeeming moment last season so it feels like retreading ground. Even though I do love when the show focuses on Donal Logue because he's always great. But overall kind of a dull episode

Edited March 3, 2019 by superloislane

[AngelKitty]

Bruce said "we should have went to Jim" and now I am annoyed at the writers for the bad grammar.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

31 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

Bruce said "we should have went to Jim" and now I am annoyed at the writers for the bad grammar.

My mother was quite angry.

[Camera One]

I didn't realize this was one of the two episodes they added to the episode order.  The atmosphere of the entire episode was creepy for all three subplots, but I found it rather dull.  It seems like filler when they are dredging up cold cases and random sewer attackers as their main stories. 

There was a nice conversation between Jim and Harvey in the last 5 minutes, but I don't think it made up for the tedious case and the unnecessary secret keeping.  I'm all for a Harvey episode but I'd even rather have seen flashbacks.  I had the same feelings about the Bruce and Alfred conversation, which was nice and also in the last 5 minutes and also completely unrelated to the entire sewer subplot.  If they had an extra episode and they wanted to provide some character moments, maybe build a better storyline which isn't mostly meaningless action or fight scenes.  It would be more interesting to see them sift through the remains of Wayne Manor and plan out the new facilities.

[LilWharveyGal]

Aww, Cher's dad!!  I kept hoping he'd tell Bullock & Jim that he had a .45 and a shovel.

[scarynikki12]

On 2/28/2019 at 10:00 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I see that the show is making sure they go through all of Batman's rogue gallery before its too late!

I’m still hoping we get a cameo from Condiment King. 

Jane Doe was never a villain I had any investment in but they did a nice job with her story. Same with The Ventriloquist though I’m thrilled they went with humor there. Ed and Pengy’s expressions were hilarious. 

I’m gonna go with that being the Gotham version of Killer Croc until they say otherwise. 

[John Potts]

Love Barbara's "Normally I'd bury the bodies, find the guy who did it - and then bury him with them". In Gotham, that almost makes her as good as The Law - arguably better, as she seems to care about getting the right guy.

Why do you need a sonar to cross a river? I don't suppose you're planning a trans atlantic trip, just to get to the far bank! OK, I guess they need to dodge the mines, but you can just use a periscope for that, I'd imagine (the main problem would actually be steering around them, I would think, not spotting them in the first place).

"Who knows what damage these toxins could do..." So maybe wear a gas mask!?

Love the way they ask Dix if he can walk and just take his word for it. OK, they were right, but anyone can sit in a wheelchair and fake it. Unexpectedly regaining the use of your legs is a comparatively minor impossibility given the number of people who have returned from the dead, but neither Harvey nor Jim considered he might be faking?

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 8:27 PM, GustavMahler said:

Hands up who thought it was Killer Croc in the sewer

I did! Do we know that it wasn't? They really were filling up the Bat Rogues Gallery

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:39 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I’m still hoping we get a cameo from Condiment King.

Not to mention Hush, The Flamingo, Calendar Man...

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 2:03 AM, superloislane said:

Beat cops and henchmen are seriously the red shirts of this show

Yet they never seem to run out - even in a city cut off from the mainland.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 2:11 AM, opus said:

Alright, Scarface and The Ventriloquist!

At least for a little while.....

Gone quicker than Alf Mushpie!

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 3:18 AM, HoodlumSheep said:

The Scarface and Ventriloquist plot was fun. 

Harvey 😢 i wanna give him a big hug. You could feel how crushed he was when he shot her. Ugh. Donal logue can really nail the serious and emotional scenes when he's given the opportunity. Makes me sad he didn't get more meaty plots throughout the show's run. 

Least favorite plot was bruce and alfred's. It wasn't bad...it just felt like it was kinda just there to give them something to do.  

My thoughts exactly!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:24 AM, paigow said:

Hugo Strange should get a Nobel Prize for mutant research...He can create an army of Mystiques

Why was Harvey the only cop at the Cartwright house? Did Jim think Jane was going to Sirens???

He went to do what he had to do and Jim let him. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 2:03 AM, superloislane said:

Wow did they go all the way back to season 1 for a previously on clip? That can't be good!

Barbara is definitely showing her pregnancy now. How long has it been since episode 7 since Barbara had a very flat belly then and now she has a full on pregnant belly?

I like Bruce taking on a case without Gordon - but Bruce's hair seems to be getting bigger with every passing episode - it must be where he keeps his secrets

Penguin's face when he saw the dummy was amazing

It makes no sense for Harvey to be holding back information - how many times have both he and Jim been dirty and they both know about it - why would this be any different? I mean Jim himself has done FAR dirtier stuff than this!

Beat cops and henchmen are seriously the red shirts of this show

Did Hugo Strange create everything that ever happened in Gotham or something? He seems to be responsible for EVERYTHING!

Did Bruce just get his inspiration for his batarangs? Damn you Gotham for making me think it was going to be Killer Croc down there!

The Ventriloquist is an actual Batman villain but I guess he's just dead already? That's too bad - he was so much fun and I loved that it was Penn!

I might need some tissues because Bruce/Alfred is giving me serious feels! But come on - they couldn't have given them something more that actually developed the Batman plot rather than just filler?

The girl playing Jane Doe is a very good actress - even behind a mask for most of the episode

This was a nice enough episode which shed some light on Harvey and his dirty cop past but we already knew enough about that and he already had his big redeeming moment last season so it feels like retreading ground. Even though I do love when the show focuses on Donal Logue because he's always great. But overall kind of a dull episode

The beat cop Jane knocked out actually survived, after he learns Dix is dead Jim remarks that she has killed 3 people, Dix and the 2 at Barbara's. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 6:43 PM, LilWharveyGal said:

Aww, Cher's dad!!  I kept hoping he'd tell Bullock & Jim that he had a .45 and a shovel.

??????????????????????????

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:39 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I’m still hoping we get a cameo from Condiment King. 

Jane Doe was never a villain I had any investment in but they did a nice job with her story. Same with The Ventriloquist though I’m thrilled they went with humor there. Ed and Pengy’s expressions were hilarious. 

I’m gonna go with that being the Gotham version of Killer Croc until they say otherwise. 

I'm waiting for Crazy Quilt myself. Or Kiteman. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 11:59 PM, John Potts said:

Love Barbara's "Normally I'd bury the bodies, find the guy who did it - and then bury him with them". In Gotham, that almost makes her as good as The Law - arguably better, as she seems to care about getting the right guy.

Why do you need a sonar to cross a river? I don't suppose you're planning a trans atlantic trip, just to get to the far bank! OK, I guess they need to dodge the mines, but you can just use a periscope for that, I'd imagine (the main problem would actually be steering around them, I would think, not spotting them in the first place).

"Who knows what damage these toxins could do..." So maybe wear a gas mask!?

Love the way they ask Dix if he can walk and just take his word for it. OK, they were right, but anyone can sit in a wheelchair and fake it. Unexpectedly regaining the use of your legs is a comparatively minor impossibility given the number of people who have returned from the dead, but neither Harvey nor Jim considered he might be faking?

I did! Do we know that it wasn't? They really were filling up the Bat Rogues Gallery

Not to mention Hush, The Flamingo, Calendar Man...

Yet they never seem to run out - even in a city cut off from the mainland.

I'm guessing they have no shortage of volunteers from the refugees, But the beat cop at Jane's house survives. You need sonar because mines aren't planted on the surface, they're variable depth and can detonate from proximity alone. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Like the way Barbara runs her club although with everything else going on you'd think a double murder would hardly raise an eyebrow?

2. The apartment scene is truly surreal, especially when Harvey rips the face off.

3. Why introduce then kill off 2 villains off in the same ep, seems a waste? Much like Magpie and the Riddlerette. 

4. What happened to Barbara's league of assassin girls, are they happy to just be her staff at the club?

5. They teased us with 2 possible villains here, who else thought the return of Clayface and Killer Croc?

6. Scarface was terrific, laughed at every second, especially Penguin's expression. When did you last hear the term 'Palooka'? 

7. Some great acting by 'Jane', the more tragic the villain the better. You have to wonder how much credence a 7 year old's testimony would have? 

8. Barbara continues her redemption, JIm should make her a registered informant and get Harvey Dent to offer her immunity in return for her testimony (Harvey does owe him one). Start again with a clean slate. 

9. Loved the 2 Barbaras scene, I was shouting at the screen "Ask her where you met Jim! Ask her what you bought her for Christmas! Ask her where you first kissed!" etc But then it stood to reason the imposter had to be the one in the coat.  

10. I would love to have seen Wesker in the toy shop, they should have made it the one from The Toymaker (and throw in some WW Deadly Toys refs) 

11. Bruce and Alfred's sewer hunt is pretty dull but do we have the prototype Batarang here?

12. This was pretty much a standing still ep, it reminded me of a s1 ep, it could have occurred without Gotham being cut off at all.