S05.E12: Memorabilia

[Trini]

Quote

When Sherloque wants to use a memory machine on Barry and Nora to help gain access to Grace's memories, Nora panics, fearing her parents will find out the secrets she's been keeping from them. Nora secretly decides to use the machine on her own which ends in disaster after she gets trapped inside Grace's mind. Barry and Iris go in after their daughter and Iris is brokenhearted by what she finds. Meanwhile, Ralph tricks Cisco into going out for a night out on the town.

Rebecca Johnson directed the episode written by Sam Chalsen & Kristen Kim.

Airdate: 1/29/2019

[scarynikki12]

Episode threads are for episode discussion.  They are not for comic discussion, spoilers, previews, or convincing posters that their opinions are wrong.  We have threads for comic and spoiler discussions.  If you wish to reference comics, previews, or spoilers, that's allowed but they must all be tagged as spoilers and they cannot move discussion from the episode itself.  Posts that fail to use the spoiler tag will be hidden and repeat offenders will be warned.

[SimoneS]

This episode was better than last week's. I was cussing out Helbing, but he turned it around for Iris.

Nora is a fool. How can she still rationalize scheming with Thawne? She already must have known that he was a criminal when she started this scheme with him and now she knows he killed her grandmother. Her defense mechanism is Thawne?

Ha. Even Grace is smarter than Nora. I was rooting for Cicada. So Grace takes over as Cicada after her uncle is killed or stopped. Damn. 

Sherloque is getting close to Nora's secret. He shouldn't have told Nora about being able to see people's memories. I like how he is toying with Nora. 

Why is Cisco so grumpy? Ralph is so sweet and better written this season.

The Red Death! Huge foreshadowing! Must be next season's villain.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

Nora apologized for how she treated Iris. GROWTH!!!!!!!!!!!

[jay741982]

I now detest Grace. All metas are not to blame for what happend to you. You evil little brat. Your Uncle is not a Hero. I detest that doctor too 

[BeautifulFlower]

2 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

I now detest Grace. All metas are not to blame for what happend to you. You evil little brat. Your Uncle is not a Hero. I detest that doctor too 

She also mentioned her parents. We never knew how she felt about metas killing her parents. So she probably hated all metas since then.

[SimoneS]

Nora said in her message to Thorne that she is back to stop/kill Cicada. Why? Has Thawne convinced her that Cicada had something to do with Barry's disappearance. Also, she didn't know that Barry was The Flash when she was a child so who told her? Thawne seems to be the only candidate. Also, by changing Cicada's identity, setting up Grace to take over after her uncle is stopped, and causing Iris to start the newspaper early, it is clear that Nora is bringing the crisis that causes Barry to disappear closer to occurring. She really is a mess.

[cambridgeguy]

It's nice they remembered Iris has an actual job but founding her own newspaper from scratch is a bit much.  

Why the hell is Cisco so obsessed with this meta cure?  There's still no logical reason for him to be this obsessed with it.

Sadly they can't do a straight up Red Death given who he is under the mask.

[SimoneS]

I also enjoyed: Barry totally gushing over the Flash museum and Iris mentioning him getting a big head or ego. It was great swag. WB should sell of some it.

[BeautifulFlower]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's nice they remembered Iris has an actual job but founding her own newspaper from scratch is a bit much.  

Why the hell is Cisco so obsessed with this meta cure?  There's still no logical reason for him to be this obsessed with it.

Sadly they can't do a straight up Red Death given who he is under the mask.

This is what happens when they kept giving Caitlin too many subplots. While I'm happy we got something on her journalism, I hate that her wanting to start a newspaper came out of nowhere.

[jay741982]

7 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's nice they remembered Iris has an actual job but founding her own newspaper from scratch is a bit much.  

Why the hell is Cisco so obsessed with this meta cure?  There's still no logical reason for him to be this obsessed with it.

Sadly they can't do a straight up Red Death given who he is under the mask.

Ooh who is he? 

[SimoneS]

Also, we was that pulse on Grace's forehead. Is it possible that she is the one with the powers and she is giving or lending them to her uncle? They could be connected by the shards in their bodies. So even after he is given the meta-cure nothing changes.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[mxc90]

So Nora goes in alone for fear her RF memories would be exposed and at the end her stupidity puts Sherloque on the right path to find out about her and RF anyway. All she had say: No Sherloque I don't want to go in.

[miasth]

Nora apologizes to Iris.  Iris needed to hear it because it was clear she was still beating herself up over the person that she might become in the future.

I think Future Iris though should have told Nora the truth at some point and it is clear that her over protectiveness severely stunted Nora.

I  should have known better, but I got my hopes up that Nora's secret would be exposed.  I was disappointed Sherloque provided Nora with a plausible lie.  I suppose he wants to find out her secret first before he exposes her.

Cisco bothered me tonight. Ralph tricked him yes, but he was almost obsessive  about getting the cure completed.  I do not get his urgency. There has not been metas vocal about wanting their powers taken away. 

Barry wants to force to cure on Cicada which considering he is a serial killer it is understandable.  Unfortunately, that speaks to the slippery slope issue surrounding this cure.  If they start making exceptions to the we will only give it to people who want it, where does it end? What if someone like Cicada or a high ranking government official gets their hands on it and decides that all metas are potentially dangerous so they must be forced to take it.

Grace was traumatized, but seems to have gone to the same obsessive irrational homicidal place as Uncle Cicada.  What if the Cicada who comes back after the flash disappears is not Orleigh but Grace.  Nora may have helped create a bigger monster by trying to change the timelines.  My head is going to start to spin thinking about all the possible time paradoxes.

[quarks]

I like the reveal that Singh also survives next season's crossover - well, assuming the timeline doesn't change too much more.

12 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Sadly they can't do a straight up Red Death given who he is under the mask.

They have had his cousin show up, though, so maybe we can get a masked Red Death without a reveal?

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Also, we was that pulse on Grace's forehead. Is it possible that she is the one with the powers and she is giving or lending them to her uncle? So even after he is given the meta-cure nothing changes?

I think it's possible that she'll end up being the Real Big Bad of the season, yes.

[tennisgurl]

I dont know what my favorite twist was, Grace actually supporting her uncles crusade, or the Red Death reference. Oh boy, that could be good!

I liked this episode, much better than the last few episodes. It also had more Barry/Iris in it...coincidence?!? I loved that Iris got to come along on the trip through memories, and Barry confirming to Iris that he knows that she will be an amazing mom, in any timeline no matter what. And Nora actually apologized for treating her mom like crap! Not only that, but she acknowledged that Iris must have been going through a lot, having lost her husband, and she is sorry that she had to go through that. Seeing Barry and Iris together probably makes it really hit home for her that she didnt just lose a dad, her mother lost her partner.

Nice that Iris is also getting to focus a on her career again, even if her running her own paper comes out of nowhere. She and Barry in the flash museum was cute, especially when Barry was getting kind of cocky about his museum, and Iris was teasing him. And she beat memory Reverse Flash with the Thinkers chair! Suck on some continuity, you undead creep!

Nora trusting Thawne is next level stupid. Did the Flash museum seriously say nothing about the guy who started Barry on the course that would turn him into The Flash? Nora lying and sneaking around is just going to end badly, and Barry is gonna be PISSED when he finds out who she is hanging out with. Bet you wish you had just killed him, huh Barry? I do love that Sherloque is totally onto her, and is playing the long game. He knows he cant accuse her until he has proof, and i think its only a matter of time until he finds it. Nora aint exactly Elizabeth Jennings. 

Why is Cisco in such a bad mood lately? This obsession with the meta cure is so random, I dont like it. I did like Ralph dragging him out to get to have some fun, that was actually quite sweet of him. 

So Grace is a creepy kid who hates metas just like her uncle Cicada and their doctor pal? God, they're a whole creepy little hate crime murder cell! Is she actually a meta, with her pulsating forehead and her saying how she can hear everything around her? Has she always hated metas, or is it just because of her uncles crusade? And with the Cisada showing up in her dream with long blond hair, it looks like she might follow in her uncles footsteps. Maybe thats why people think that Cicada is immortal in the future, its a whole family going down the generations?

Edited January 30, 2019 by tennisgurl

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 Nora lying and sneaking around is just going to end badly, and Barry is gonna be PISSED when he finds out who she is hanging out with. Bet you wish you had just killed him, huh Barry? I do love that Sherloque is totally onto her, and is playing the long game. He knows he cant accuse her until he has proof, and i think its only a matter of time until he finds it. Nora aint exactly Elizabeth Jennings. 

Too be fair, it doesn't matter how many times Barry kills him the Reverse Flash will always come back to f' with him and his family. I went from being annoyed with Sherloque to loving him. I can't wait for him stick it to Nora. I hope Barry locks her up in the pipeline where she belongs.

[SimoneS]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

I like the reveal that Singh also survives next season's crossover - well, assuming the timeline doesn't change too much more.

At the rate Nora is going, one can only hope that Singh survives. 

 

14 minutes ago, quarks said:

They have had his cousin show up, though, so maybe we can get a masked Red Death without a reveal?

They could it change up the Red Death like they did Cicada.

[adora721]

30 minutes ago, miasth said:

I think Future Iris though should have told Nora the truth at some point and it is clear that her over protectiveness severely stunted Nora.

 

I hardly think Iris' overprotectiveness is to blame for Nora's extreme immaturity and trust in a man she knew from the start was her father's nemesis. Our parents' failings only go so far to influence who we are; Nora is a woman of over 25 years old. She is old enough to choose, know, and do better. So, I adamantly disagree that Nora's failings are Iris' fault.

Edited January 30, 2019 by adora721

[ottoDbusdriver]

There's an Earth-221 -- has this ever been mentioned before ?

I'm still trying to figure out how Sherloque traveled to all these other Earths, as he has no breaching abilities.

[shantown]

40 minutes ago, miasth said:

Grace was traumatized, but seems to have gone to the same obsessive irrational homicidal place as Uncle Cicada.  What if the Cicada who comes back after the flash disappears is not Orleigh but Grace. 

This was exactly my thought when Dream Protector Cicada was shown to be smaller and have long blond hair!

[BeautifulFlower]

Quote

That was some massive retcon BS to erase Iris' emotional abuse of Nora to make Iris (and Barry) seem better. It takes Iris from a person who was so terribly damaged by Barry's disappearance that she took it out on her daughter, and changed it into Iris and Barry being the perfect couple. I hate both the fact that it paints this angelic picture of them and tears down Nora in the same stroke. Now she's a bitter, angry person who made up decades of emotional abuse at the hands of her mother to justify her feelings. I would compare it to Supergirl's "Homecoming". In that episode they made Mon-El look a lot better by tearing everyone else down by giving them the idiot ball.

Yes, I actually just read this. People can have opinion and I respect them. However, thos person is seeing a different show. Where did Nora give off the impression that future Iris was emotionally abusive? First off, do they truly know what emotional abuse is?

There was no retcon in this episode. First off, we don't know what  the future is like. Two, Sherloque spelled it out that Nora anger was clouding her judgement. Remember she became furious at her mom after founding out she was chipped. The first thing she talked about is how she doesn't need protection. She viewed the chip not only as a lie but also Iris overprotectiveness. In 5x05, she said future Iris wouldn't allow her to do anything the least bit dangerous. So where the impression future Iris is emotionally abusive come from? 

 

Anyway, I'm happy Nora apologized. i'm glad she realized her mom in her timeline is hurting too. I really like them adding in how no matter what Nora was going to take her anger out on Iris.

 

I don't know how to feel on the Cisco/Ralph subplot. Caitlin wasn't involved, so that's a positive.

[ruby24]

Barry and Iris refuse to touch or kiss each other at all anymore. What's up with that? He literally tapped her on the shoulder as he exited the room at the end of this episode.

NO newlywed couple acts this dry. It's absurd.

[SimoneS]

57 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Barry and Iris refuse to touch or kiss each other at all anymore. What's up with that? He literally tapped her on the shoulder as he exited the room at the end of this episode.

NO newlywed couple acts this dry. It's absurd.

I noticed that. It was pretty weird. I wonder if it is how the scenes are being directed, but still Grant and Candice should know by now how to sell Barry and Iris' relationship.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

13 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

However, thos person is seeing a different show. Where did Nora give off the impression that future Iris was emotionally abusive? First off, do they truly know what emotional abuse is?

These are the same people who claim Iris abused Barry and that their relationship is toxic. I've even seen an Excel spreadsheet comparing Iris' abuse to Caitlin's loving, healthy behavior towards Barry.  These people imagine whatever they need to in order to demonize Iris and West-Allen. 

Not once has it been implied that Iris was abusive - distant, overprotective - but never abusive.

Edited January 30, 2019 by adora721

[blugirlami21]

I should be surprised that Nora once again making the future worse made her double down on her lie but that would be silly at this point. The Nora character/story line is a hot mess.  Which is sad because it had such promise. Her returning to the future was story enough. If she had come back to the future to try and save Barry from disappearing that would have been story enough. But they had to make her a liar. They had to make her turn out to be working with the one villain who basically ruined Barry's life. And they had to make her so bad at it.

She's so poorly written for a character of her age. She's too immature and quite frankly too stupid to be believed ninety nine percent of the time.  How does she know nothing about who the Reverse Flash is and what he did to Barry? It's not exactly a state secret. I just wish her backstory was better. For all intents and purposes, she had a great Mom, great grandparents, a nice upbringing. Iris was overprotective but lots of parents are. And in the world they live in, missing superhero father or not, who could blame her? Her being so angry because Barry was missing doesnt track for me.

This was a pretty good plan and she managed to screw that up as well. Grace seems even more unhinged than Cicada at this point and that's completely Nora's doing. 

I too don't understand where this meta human cure storyline came from for Cisco. Why were he and Caitlin both doing the same thing separately? And why would Cisco have such a hard on for it? He loves having powers or he used to. He's so low energy and angry this season. He made me feel bad for Ralph of all people. 

I did enjoy the family stuff and them hanging out outside of star labs is always nice. I do agree that Barry and Iris could use a little more pda but this show has never been great at that with any couple really. 

[tennisgurl]

43 minutes ago, adora721 said:

These are the same people who claim Iris abused Barry and that their relationship is toxic. I've even seen an Excel spreadsheet comparing Iris' abuse to Caitlin's loving, healthy behavior towards Barry.  These people imagine whatever they need to in order to demonize Iris and West-Allen. 

 

Yeah, these are the people who refuse to see any possible flaws in their beloved Caitlin, despite her history of bad life choices, but do nothing but see the worst in Iris, and when that worst doesent exist, they just make something up! "Yeah, now Iris is abusive because she breathed on Barry at some point! And she is a bad daughter! And sister! And was probably behind the JFK Assassination!" 

Now I wonder if the real Big Bad will be a future Grace, and that her uncle will be killed accidentally by Barry and company, and she becomes Cicada 2, and is actually the serial killer who killed tons and tons of people.

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

I should be surprised that Nora once again making the future worse made her double down on her lie but that would be silly at this point. The Nora character/story line is a hot mess.  Which is sad because it had such promise. Her returning to the future was story enough. If she had come back to the future to try and save Barry from disappearing that would have been story enough. But they had to make her a liar. They had to make her turn out to be working with the one villain who basically ruined Barry's life. And they had to make her so bad at it.

I think by the time the story unfolds we are likely be more forgiving of Nora, but I think that the way they had her team up with Thawne was a mistake. They should have had Thawne fool her by taking on someone else's identity to get close to her and mentor her like he did with Barry. Nora could still be keeping him a secret from future Iris and current day Barry and Iris, but at least then she would not knowingly be conspiring with a murderer and her father's nemesis.

[ursula]

54 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Barry and Iris refuse to touch or kiss each other at all anymore. What's up with that? He literally tapped her on the shoulder as he exited the room at the end of this episode.

NO newlywed couple acts this dry. It's absurd.

The Flash is rated G and interracial PDA is PG-13 at least. 🙃

[Lantern7]

Sherloque: I have zees idea. We use zee memory machine to probe the leetle girl's mind and wake her up. Then we break for crossiants and defeat zee Zeecada once and for all. There is non way zees plan fails!

Grace: I've been aware of what my uncle has been doing, and I'm really good with it.

Sherloque: (facepalm) Oh, non . . .

Nora: Also, I think she basically succeeds her dad in my timeline. She made an adult self in his outfit in her memory and everything.

Barry: You really are my daughter. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to the future and taking as much Flash Museum swag as I can get! [turning to Cisco, a tear in his eye] There have a bobblehead of me!

Cisco: (high-fiving Barry) It's almost worth you dying and leaving your daughter without a dad!

Interesting episode. Nora continues to grow as a person and as a shady character. Ralph tries to help Cisco. And Barry acts lie a goober seeing the Flash Museum in Nora's mind. There are posters in the back with the front page about his disappearance . . . but he's got merch! Very in-character. Also, a comic with a Cicada that looks nothing like Wilbur Orville Orlin.

Red Death? Probably wouldn't be like the canon. You can hear the really diehard geeks get giddy over the concept making the leap to TV.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Lantern7

[Trini]

Yes, a good episode! I did enjoy this one, but there's still a pacing issue. After episodes of stalling, they do an episode like this where they put all the plot twists and info dumps. This is one I have to immediately re-watch. More thoughts later....

[shantown]

When Season 5 Wells was saying Nora must have memories she wants to hide and asking her “Must be ones about.... your mom, right?” Barry gave him a look that I read as him finally catching on to something being up. I really hope this is the case because SOMEONE else needs to notice Nora is off. And I still can’t believe after four seasons of everyone telling Barry to stop messing up the timeline, that no one is batting an eye at Nora’s continued presence messing up the timeline. 

 

Also, I miss Joe West. JLM was standing up during his Rent Live performance, I hope we have him back soon!

[adora721]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Nora apologized for how she treated Iris. GROWTH!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, Iris gets an onscreen apology from a woman who hurt her; Caitlin and Killer (oops) Frost  should take notice, but I won't hold my breath.

Edited January 30, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I also enjoyed: Barry totally gushing over the Flash museum and Iris mentioning him getting a big head or ego. It was great swag. WB should sell of some it.

I'm 95% sure all that stuff was actual DC/Flash merchandise.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Trini

[VCRTracking]

Damn, I suddenly noticed how much Grace looked like Liza Weil when she was Paris from Gilmore Girls!

Edited January 30, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

The West-Allen family moments in this one were really sweet! ... As long as you forget that Nora is a liar. I was really glad about the apology to Iris that was overdue; but you are still going to hurt your parents - and yourself - with all this secret keeping.

(Calling it now: “brother” on the Scrabble board is an easter egg.)

Glad we got a few scenes out of the labs with the Team doing non-hero stuff. The skating was cute! I guess Grant and Tom were the only ones who really knew how to skate; the others were struggling, but it still nice to see.

Yes, Nora could have just refused to use the Memory Machine at all; but then we wouldn't have a plot I guess. ::sigh::  But anyway, maybe the machine would have helped Grace, but I'm sure at least half the reason for Sherloque bringing it in was to out Nora.

Shouldn't Team Flash have known that Grace had a dark matter shard in her head? They were going to mess with her brain, but they didn't get all her medical info?? I know they wanted it to be a surprise for the audience, but that just made them look sloppy.

Nice seeing Singh again. Even the future version. I wish they’d let Barry’s job be a bigger part of the show, then we’d see him more.

Nora, Nora, Nora. You know full well how much it hurts when loved ones lie to 'protect' family; so what are you even doing?? You should be ashamed/afraid of working with Reverse Flash, but you really need to 'fess up before things gets worse.

[Trini]

Really interesting plot twists here.

If they actually make Grace and Dr. Ambres the REAL villains for this season, I will take back everything I said about about Cicada being lame! (Okay, maybe some of the things. :-P) The Dream(?) Cicada was definitely a woman. It kinda makes sense that a child would take things to the extreme.

So according to the Flash Museum, Cicada went dormant for a while, then re-emerged? The same Cicada, or did Grace take up the mantle? Did Original Cicada die?

So I’m assuming Grace has some sort of meta-power, but what exactly? Is she actually controlling Orlin? The doctor?

And even though she’s in a coma, Grace knows that Nora is the Flash’s daughter. That should come into play later.

So Barry & Iris/the team have even more evidence that Nora is screwing up the timeline. Can this be addressed, please?

Related; I’m glad Barry and Iris did have a conversation about the newspaper headline. Not quite the discussion about his disappearance that I still need, but I’ll take it. For now. Loved Barry encouraging Iris about starting the newspaper, and his faith in her that she always be a good mother. Supportive husband, yay!

Spoiler

But I still don't like that the newspaper storyline for Iris is being rushed for next season's crossover.

 

And because this episode didn't have enough going on, Barry wants to use the metahuman cure on Cicada. Yikes -- slow down there Barry. You know that's wrong and going in that direction won't end well. So who is going to talk him down from this? Please let this be a Barry/Cisco subplot; if they really intend to explore the ethics of the cure.

In any case, Cicada still doesn't seem so powerful that they need the cure to defeat him, IMO.

[Trini]

LOL! the ring tone for the Flash phone was The Flash theme music!

Nice to see Cisco out and about and doing stuff and meeting people outside of STAR Labs. I don’t know why it took nearly the whole season so far…. So did the show just acknowledge that he has a thing for leather jackets? Hee! The Cisco/Ralph bonding was fine. Both of them have had little to do for most of the season, so them sharing a side plot worked for me. And they did mange to connect it back to the cure arc.

Shallow: Carlos’ hair looked great.

Now if the writers would remember that Cisco actually does have family, that'd be great.

So this bartender is also a photographer, and they mentioned that Iris would need photographers…. Well, you’ve never been subtle, Show.

I'm glad things are picking up after a so-so mid-season return.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Trini

[thuganomics85]

So, unsurprisingly, Iris was apparently nowhere near the nightmare mother Nora made her out to be, but it was a case of her doing one thing possibly wrong (messing with Nora's powers), and Nora allowed that to effect how she viewed everything about her.  To be fair, that is somewhat believable and even realistic on some levels, but it really feels like it should be coming from a character who is still in their teens, instead of however old Nora actually is.  But whatever, I guess.  She at least apologized to Iris for everything, so maybe she'll finally grow on that level.

Then again, it sure looks like Nora is going to keep working for Eobard Thawne, so maybe she hasn't wised up that much.  Also, it sure looks like an older Grace is going to be the new Cicada, so congrats on creating an Villain's Origin Story, Nora.

The show has just gone full-blown meta (heh) with Sherloque by having him say that he had a partner whose name is very similar to "Watson."  Yeah, he really isn't an actual character.  Although I'm enjoying him make Nora squirm.

Seeing The Flash Museum was fun.  And I pretty sure Robert Picardo was one of the voices narrating stuff, which is cool.

Still not sure why Cisco is so gung-ho with the meta cure, but him and Ralph together was fun.  Still can't believe Ralph has improved as much as he has this season.  Also, Cisco's new crush is totally going to join Iris at the new newspaper company, right?

Definitely a step up from the majority of these episodes, but as usual, I'm not going to get my hopes up over them keeping the momentum going. 

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

(Calling it now: “brother” on the Scrabble board is an easter egg.)

Nice catch. Everything I have been seeing confirms my opinion that... will continue on the spoiler thread. 

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Nice seeing Singh again. Even the future version. I wish they’d let Barry’s job be a bigger part of the show, then we’d see him more.

I miss seeing Singh. I really like Patrick Sabongui. I hope that changes with Joe's return. Right now, Team Flash doesn't feel integrated into Central City like it used to when we had the CCPD and Jitter sets. 

6 hours ago, Trini said:

So Barry & Iris/the team have even more evidence that Nora is screwing up the timeline. Can this be addressed, please?

My pet peeve with Nora's story.

6 hours ago, Trini said:

So this bartender is also a photographer, and they mentioned that Iris would need photographers…. Well, you’ve never been subtle, Show.

Another nice catch. Maybe this means that Cisco will actually get to have a romance with Kamilla.

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm glad things are picking up after a so-so mid-season return.

Me too. I didn't expect much from this episode, but they really turned things around and have gotten people talking with the Grace twist. I definitely think that she has power and has been using it to help Orlin. The adult Grace is definitely the Cicada still killing people in the future. Nora has been cause of this. I wonder if her actions will successfully prevent Barry's 25 year disappearance, but not how she expects it. She will have changed enough events before she is erased from existence that Team Flash will take action to help Barry return.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[diebartdie]

13 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Nora apologized for how she treated Iris. GROWTH!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen several variations of this idea but....at the end of the episode, Nora confesses to Thawn that she really just lied in Iris's face. Her apology was fake, meaningless, bullshit. Nora is NOT sorry for how she treated her mother, past, present or future. Nora is a real piece of work, I loathe her.

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

I've seen several variations of this idea but....at the end of the episode, Nora confesses to Thawn that she really just lied in Iris's face. Her apology was fake, meaningless, bullshit. Nora is NOT sorry for how she treated her mother, past, present or future. Nora is a real piece of work, I loathe her.

I re-watched that scene. Nora was not saying that she lied when she apologize to Iris for how she treated her. In her message to Thawne at the start of the episode, Nora expressed doubts about lying to Barry and Iris. In her message at the end, she was saying that like Grace, she would anything to protect her family even lie, meaning that she no longer had doubts about lying to Barry and Iris about working with Thawne.  

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[Cekrypton1]

The empty Reverse-Flash suit was legit creepy.

One thing I liked, after watching it a second time, is the fact that the Flash Museum states that Cicada disappeared and then came back again, kind of like those bugs that appear every 15-17 years. What are they called? Oh right.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Cekrypton1

[adora721]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Please let this be a Barry/Cisco subplot; if they really intend to explore the ethics of the cure.

I'm sure they'll explore the ethics of the cure right after they explore the ethics of locking people in the pipeline for two seasons. In other words, probably never. 

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Then again, it sure looks like Nora is going to keep working for Eobard Thawne, so maybe she hasn't wised up that much.

In listening to Nora's narration at the start of the show about how she's learned from Thawne to lie, I'm hoping there's a twist that Nora is also lying to Thawne. What if Nora hasn't just learned to lie to her parents? I'm hoping she's now using Thawne to get what she wants, but not give Thawne what he wants.

ETA: I hope that Iris having an office doesn't mean she'll be out of the loop in STAR Labs. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

46 minutes ago, adora721 said:

ETA: I hope that Iris having an office doesn't mean she'll be out of the loop in STAR Labs. 

Well, technically, Barry has an office at CCPD - which I'm now realizing we haven't seen since episode 3(?) - so it doesn't necessarily mean she'll be out of the loop. I think it's a good thing she has her own set, now. (Let's see how long that lasts.)

[CloudySky]

The Flash bobblehead reminded me of the flash Honest Trailer lol. Made me laugh.

Grace is creepy and a better actor than her dad.

The only explanation for everybody being cool with Nora staying is that they all WANT the future to change so they're like meh.

I like Sherloque more than in the beginning but when he has long monologues that accent gets really annoying.

I was shocked by that first "memory" of Iris and Nora so I was relieved when it turned out to be false. I'd always gotten the impression that it was mainly the power dampening that pissed Nora off coupled with some general overprotectiveness (kinda like Joe not letting Iris become a cop) that had already strained their relationship before the tipping point.

The crossovers are tricky because as great as they are, now that the possibility of them hopping back and forth exists I can't help but wonder hey why doesn't Barry just get Supergirl to knock Cicada on his ass. The massmurder of hundreds of metas certainly qualifies as dire enough.

If a cure exists, I guess Nora should be grateful that Iris merely dampened her powers. Hey girl, it could have been worse.

[adora721]

35 minutes ago, Trini said:

Well, technically, Barry has an office at CCPD - which I'm now realizing we haven't seen since episode 3(?) - so it doesn't necessarily mean she'll be out of the loop. I think it's a good thing she has her own set, now. (Let's see how long that lasts.)

Barry's the lead, so him being out of the STAR Labs loop isn't very likely. I just don't want the writing for and the inclusion of Iris to regress to earlier seasons.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

The crossovers are tricky because as great as they are, now that the possibility of them hopping back and forth exists I can't help but wonder hey why doesn't Barry just get Supergirl to knock Cicada on his ass. The massmurder of hundreds of metas certainly qualifies as dire enough.

They did talk about this at the beginning of the season - apparently in the original timeline Supergirl (among others) tried and failed because Cicada was supposed to be able to neutralize her powers.  However, they then decided that only dark matter based powers were affected (hence KF being able to do things) even though that now means Kara should be able to toss Cicada into a cell in about 2 seconds.

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Seeing The Flash Museum was fun.  And I pretty sure Robert Picardo was one of the voices narrating stuff, which is cool.

I thought that narrator sounded familiar.  I wouldn't mind seeing him show up at some point.  Tuvok showed up on Supergirl last season so he wouldn't be the first one from the Trek to come over.

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

In listening to Nora's narration at the start of the show about how she's learned from Thawne to lie, I'm hoping there's a twist that Nora is also lying to Thawne. What if Nora hasn't just learned to lie to her parents? I'm hoping she's now using Thawne to get what she wants, but not give Thawne what he wants.

 

I don't think for a moment Nora has the guile to be using Thawne.  She is naive and stupid about him. She was so hurt and earnest when she confronted Thawne about killing her grandmother and even after knowing what he did, she used him as her defense mechanism in her subconscious which suggests she actually believe that he is a good guy or has the potential to be one.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[CloudySky]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

They did talk about this at the beginning of the season - apparently in the original timeline Supergirl (among others) tried and failed because Cicada was supposed to be able to neutralize her powers.  However, they then decided that only dark matter based powers were affected (hence KF being able to do things) even though that now means Kara should be able to toss Cicada into a cell in about 2 seconds.

Oh right, I vaguely remember that now. Now that he only dampens metapowers, there are so many options...Why not freeze him with a cold gun? Build a robot to fight him? Breach him straight into a cell using the breach device instead of Cisco's powers? Pin him down with arrows from a distance? Run him over with a tank? And this is just off the top of my head without thinking about it too much. I don't remember exactly what his power level is, but I don't think he's super strong? His main power is in the dagger and dampening powers, right? There've been so many powerful villains, it's kind of ridiculous that this is The Unbeatable One.