Moira Queen: Mother

[Lisin]

Devious but classy.

[Zalyn]

I just came up a nickname for Moira: The Irony Lady.  Because she's got a great edge to her, yet somehow the irony all revolves around her - Thea's accusations of her cheating with Malcolm, Moira commenting to Oliver in "Vertigo" that it's Thea and not her going to prison, etc. 

Moira is a great counterpart to Lance as one of the parents, and I love that she keeps me guessing as to what she actually is thinking.

ETA: I forgot the big one - that she's one of the few people to successfully shoot Oliver (as The Hood) and nearly kill him.  That's just straight out of a Greek tragedy.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Zalyn

[bravelittletoaster]

I would have put "MILF," which is why no one has ever let me moderate a discussion on the internet.

[JayKay]

I like "The Irony Lady" nickname, but in the meantime I find the "Mother" subheader ominously simple and therefore hilarious. It's as if Moira's saying "Nothing to see here, just a humble mother who embodies the traits one associates with motherhood..." It would make a great campaign slogan, since her platform is all about protecting family. Ignore the murder, deceit and domestic dysfunction. Susanna Thompson, Vera Farmiga and Jessica Walter have redefined television moms for me, and it's been great.

[Zalyn]

Well said, although my punny side wants to go with "Moira Queen: Mum" just because its mischievous that way.  

[JayKay]

Hee! Brilliant!

[BkWurm1]

Well said, although my punny side wants to go with "Moira Queen: Mum" just because its mischievous that way.

 

First time I read the heading I thought it said Moira - Queen Mother  so I'd be happy with Queen Mum as well.  There is something wonderfully remote and ridged about her affection. 

[tricksterson]

I thought the pun of Moira Queen: Mother was deliberate and applaud it.

[thuganomics85]

RIP, Moira.  You may have been cold as ice at times, but I always understood her motivations and reasons, even when I didn't agree with them. No surprise that she would sacrifice herself for her children.  For whatever flaws she had, she really did care for Ollie and Thea.

 

I really am going to miss Susanna Thompson on this show.

Edited April 24, 2014 by thuganomics85

[quarks]

Moira Thompson was one of the best things on this show.  She even kinda made that entire Running for Mayor plotline work.

 

Ok, only kinda. But still!

 

I did like the reveal that she's known about Oliver for nearly a year and hasn't told anyone, even though the second she said it, I knew she was doomed.  Kinda puts her argument with him over Thea into a certain perspective - although then again, she was concealing the existence of his child from him.

[formerlyfreedom]

The Queen is dead. Long live the Queen.

[catrox14]

I am so upset.  SO UPSET.  I am beside myself. I thought losing Tommy was bad, but this is much worse.  I adored the Queen and Susannah was the best actor in the show IMO.   She brought so much beauty and elegance with a side of badass deviousness and made every scene she was in that much better.  Gods. I'm gutted.

 

I was so hoping Malcolm would show up out of the woods and put an arrow or 20 in Slade :(.  Man, I am stunned.

[SleepDeprived]

 

The Queen is dead. Long live the Queen.

Hear, hear!

 

On a shallow note: Susanna Thompson was a total hottie in the flashback! I mean, she looks beautiful and regal all the time but she was really working that long hair wig! The hair department must love her since I think she's the only one who has had to wear a flashback-wig that has looked really good. Oliver's flashback-hair always makes me laugh and was Laurel wearing a wig in that scene, too? Her flashback hair was kind of looking a little bit raggedy to me in this episode.

[BkWurm1]

Since it turned out that Moira knew about Oliver's nightly activities for over a year (which is when Moira stopped sleeping - insert sad face) I have to give her credit for her restraint in not throwing it in his face when he was icing her out of his life due to all the secretes she was keeping.  I know I was yelling and calling Oliver a massive hypocrite at the time. 

[Happy Harpy]

Malcolm is alive, and yet no more Malcolm/Moira epic battle of wills and deviousness and eye-fucking? Moira won't be there to deal with the ramifications of Thea's paternity and possible relationship with Malcolm?

 

More important: Who is going to be the Brain in the Queen family, now? Because it ain't going to be Oliver as long as he thinks with the male part of his anatomy, and Thea is way to young and immature still to be in Moira's league.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Zalyn]

What a grand lady.  She even won Slade over enough to earn the sword... and a tear.  *salutes*

[bravelittletoaster]

Well, that's a bummer.  She was one of the characters in whom I was most interested.  With Moira gone and Sara seemingly gone too, my investment's taken a huge hit.

[calliope1975]

There's a discussion in the Felicity thread about how she and Moira could have interacted in the future and I thought I'd add something here. I'm bummed they killed Moira off. Did she know Felicity and Diggle were on Team Arrow? (I'm going to go with yes.) What about Sara as Canary? There were news reports of the 2nd vigilante that Felicity mentions when Sara first shows up. Did Moira make that connection, too? 

 

I know she was proud of Oliver, but what about when she remembered back in S1 when he was going around murdering the 1% left and right? And that one time she shot him and he died once or twice. 

 

Just like with Tommy, so many missed opportunities. 

[TanyaKay]

I feel quite cheated that there wasn't anymore Felicity-Moira interaction. I really enjoyed their little power play scene. Moira really is preposterous but I couldn't get enough of her. If anything, I see a little of Moira in Felicity standing at basically polar opposite sides.

 

We only had two scenes with Felicity & Moira ... one where Moira points out that she shampooed her hair with 8 women and a guard looking at her and the one where Felicity encountered her about Thea's paternity and they were both rock solid.

Yes, I too feel cheated because they were two very smart women, one is straight up honest and the other one is kinda diabolical but both fiercely protective of those they love. Would've been an amazing battle of wits - with Oliver in the middle - between Moira and Felicity. Oh the missed possibilities !!!!!!

[statsgirl]

Moira said she figured out Oliver's secret when he told her that someone in the family had to take responsibility for the Undertaking, so I doubt she knew  he was The Hood when she shot him.

 

She probably assumed that Diggle was helping him since Diggle stopped complaining that Oliver was always disappearing on him but I doubt that she knew about Felicity, As much as I wish they had been on the same side, Moira never did have much time for her.  Maybe she equated Felicity with the women Robert had cheated on her with.

[Password]

Maybe she equated Felicity with the women Robert had cheated on her with.

 

I concur. Moira had zero time for Felicity because she probably saw a little Isabel Rochev in her.

[calliope1975]

Moira said she figured out Oliver's secret when he told her that someone in the family had to take responsibility for the Undertaking, so I doubt she knew  he was The Hood when she shot him.

 

Yeah, I know she didn't know who he was when she shot him, but I would have loved some type of follow up, like hey, remember that one time you shot me? And I know the Show had to remove her to have a reason for Thea to go with Malcolm, but I wish they could have done it without killing her off. Like, say, a trial that should have lasted longer than a few episodes. I will forever regret we won't get to see Moira and Malcolm go head to head again. 

 

And yet another missed opportunity with Felicity. I would have liked to see her realize the kind of woman Felicity really is and how much she has helped her son. Alas, it's not to be. 

[BkWurm1]

I think that part of Moira couldn't help but respect Felicity for standing up to her even though it resulted in a huge headache for Moira. 

[statsgirl]

That's what Susanna Thompson said in an interview later, that Moira respected Felicity even though she lost Moira Oliver's affection.

 

I'd like to think that some day Moira would have realized that Felicity was more than Oliver's 'bit on the side' and first respected and then grew fond of her even though, or maybe because she couldn't manipulate her, because Felicity cared for and supported Oliver.

[VCRTracking]

I loved when Susanna Thompson was Dax' wife in a previous life in the episode "The Rejoining" in Star Trek Deep Space Nine:

 

[BkWurm1]

Looks to me she had the don't fuck with me eyes even back then.

[Password]

The more I think about it the more I hate that they killed mother Queen. She's irreplaceable.

[JayKay]

She's irreplaceable.

Exactly. She's that rare blend of admirable, charismatic, loathsome and terror-inducing. Maybe she was just too complex for this show. They kind of kneecapped themselves out of some meaty, morally-conflicting plotlines. I also have no doubt that Moira playing a large role in Oliver's

upcoming potential fatherhood drama

would make that storyline 60% more palatable.

[Password]

I think they mentioned that they would have to regurgitate Moira's "tells lies years before, they're revealed, then cause trouble presently" to keep her there but I feel she was so much more than someone who kept secrets. She really was diabolical but she always added something special to the Queens interaction. She was the head honcho, I don't know how that void will be replaced.

[statsgirl]

I liked that she was passionate about protecting her family and her secrets.  Often the wrong decision, but a lovely complex character and a good match for Malcolm Merlyn. 

[BkWurm1]

It would have been interesting to watch Moira try to operate without resorting to the lies and secrets as she had in the past.  That could have been her twist, promising never to lie to her children again.  Just think of the constant truth bombs she could have periodically dropped.  Plus, stripped of her more sneaky ways I think she would have been just flat out fierce. 

[slayer2]

The more I think about it the more I hate that they killed mother Queen. She's irreplaceable.

What grace, she even looked regal in prison orange. I mean...the fuck?

[Actionmage]

After re-watching The Promise, I found I had a nit to pick with the show about how Moira was written in that episode.

 

I was disappointed that Moira's sharpness seemed to be tucked away in her fabulously appointed dressing area for this episode.

 

An unknown person wants to donate  big bucks to her campaign? No biggie, but the way he was touching her seemed too proprietary for a relatively simple act. That her oldest child, angry at her at the time, was openly hostile to this man, should have sent warning signs to Moira, but it didn't. Oliver was snarky about Walter, but respected him and the decision to get married.

 

In-show, there has been no reason for Moira to get all dismissive about Oliver's concerns as to her welfare. Pissy about his hypocrisy? Sure, but actual gut concern for her? No.  Oliver's concern, and the arrival of Sara and Roy should've been the final tip-off as to Slade being shady.  Moira had her own son kidnapped and tortured in the pilot of the damn series! Despite the trial, she should be very sensitive to people wanting to use her. Trust Walter and Mike, fine. Anyone else should get a PI sic'd on them  and a dossier started. She's the freaking head of a multinational corporation and gets things done.

 

That Moira couldn't tell that Slade was planting bugs and cameras was disappointing.  Covertly seeing something vaguely sketchy, Slade and she covering, and then seeing Team Arrow just pop-up? A mental flag on Mr. Wilson's play.  Moira could chew Ollie out for his rudeness, as well as protecting him, and then telling Thea some convoluted  cover to get her to stay with Roy so she wouldn't have to be so alone during the campaign and to protect Thea. That would get us to the same place as the actual writing, but with a typically sharp Moira dealing with the kidnapping, Oliver, the "bankruptcy", and the eventual showdown with Slade. Moira would just not seem...so clueless. Which was a rare misstep for Moira's writing.

[Nanrad]

I LOVED Moira. The role was acted well and Moira just ruled (pun intended). It was upsetting to see her die even though I knew it was coming.

[KirkB]

I liked that episode of DS9 at the time but I hadn't seen it in a long time and had no idea that was her. Huh. Anyway, Moira isn't necessarily gone. Odds are we're going to get some flashbacks with her in them since we know how much this show loves flashbacks, and if he has the capability I wouldn't put it past Ra's to bring Moira back just to mess with Oliver AND Malcolm.

 

I am also bummed they killed Moira. She was one of the most interesting characters to watch. Able to stand up to Malcolm, Slade, and Oliver, and face her own death with strength and dignity.

Edited August 13, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

From the The Return episode thread:

 

Moira may not have been prepared to die (it's rare that anyone is after all) but ultimately she has been what she always was. Someone willing to protect her children.

I find the idea that it's okay that Moira died passively with her hands tied behind her back, literally and figuratively, instead of out there fighting for them because she was protecting her children to be sexist.

 

This is the Moira who found out about Ra's al Ghul and contacted him in order to keep Malcolm Merlyn away from Thea.  She shouldn't have died at all. But if she had to die, it should have been fighting and clawing with her last breath.

[wingster55]

It's not ok...but it is more tragic. 

[tv echo]

The CW's S2 character bio card for Moira...

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.307038822767490.1073741835.104137579724283&type=3

[tarotx]

Moira's a little younger than I thought.

[kismet]

Why would anyone think Moira knew about the Gambit ahead of time?  There's zero evidence that she knew beforehand, and based on her convo with Robert trying to get him to stop the Undertaking, there is evidence that she didn't know.  That Frank Chen guy set it up, but Moira didn't know beforehand.

Thank you! That was on me... I wasn't sure how deep MQ's knowledge of the Gambit plan was before the event happened. It's been a little while since I watched s1. For me it always seemed that she knew that there was some plan to potentially kill her husband, but was not very pro-active in stopping it or RQ. So when we had talked about MQ & her motherly affections for OQ earlier in the OQ thread - it bothered me that if she loved her son that much, why would she ever let him get on the boat if she knew that was a potential threat?

 

Honestly, it was a little murky how much she knew & did not know about the Undertaking and everything that led up to it in the years before & during "island time". I wish they had explored that more in the trial instead of her love affair with MM. Of course then, she probably would have been convicted. But a few years in prison, might have been better than being skewered by Slade for both her character & the show.

 

Now that I went back to Moira's thread to post this remark, I think the playing card might have also triggered some false memories a few days ago when I read it. Since it described her as the "keeper" of the "darkest family secrets" and RQ's death gave her "free reign" over the Queen Empire.

[Sakura12]

I think Moira had knowledge that Malcolm was going to kill her husband, just not when. She didn't know he was going to sabotage the Gambit, I imagine if she did she would've done anything in her power to stop Oliver from going with. 

[tarotx]

I thought Moira was just worried that MM was going to have Robert killed. She really was worried about him and tried to keep Robert from doing anything that would risk his life. I need to do a complete show rewatch.

 

I think Moira made it her thing to protect her family behind their backs-like it was her job to keep everything going as planned in every way. Oliver kind of got that "protective" nature from her. 

[kismet]

Totally agree that protectiveness was one of MQ's defining characteristics. But I wonder how much of that existed before the Gambit and how much it intensified after the Gambit. And OQ, most definitely inherited that protectiveness trait from her. I also think OQ & MQ shared many of the same characteristics beyond just protectiveness, and I have mentioned it before in these threads somewhere. To me OQ, is more his Mother's son, than his Father's son - despite the mission & the infidelity. Its why I see him succeeding at

being mayor

, despite my personal dislike for that arc and why he failed at being CEO. Likewise, TQ to me seems to be more her real father's daughter despite what her biology tells us.

 

I really think I might need to do a rewatch as well. That playing card really threw my memory for a loop. I remember MQ one way, but then all these other things start creeping in my head. And I'm having a hard time distinguishing fact from canon from speculation/theory.

Edited September 29, 2015 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

Totally agree that protectiveness was one of MQ's defining characteristics. But I wonder how much of that existed before the Gambit and how much it intensified after the Gambit.

Considering Moira paid a girl that Oliver got pregnant to lie to him about a miscarriage and disappear so he wouldn't have to be a father before he was ready indicates that she was always pretty protective. Not necessarily in a good way, but it was there before the Gambit.

[kismet]

But she also let him have free reign, skip school, drop out of school, underage drink/party, and have no real big consequences for being arrested. All I'm saying is she was protective and wanted her son to be happy. So she used money to facilitate that, but she didn't real seem as hands-on about protecting him before the Gambit as she was after the Gambit.

 

I grew up with a very over-protective mother, and I wouldn't have been able to get away with a sliver of what OQ seemed to do on his good behavior days.

[apinknightmare]

IDK, she seemed big on protecting Oliver from consequences before the Gambit. She seemed more generally protective after, when she had first-hand knowledge of what the people who were after her and her family were capable of doing. Oliver told her she was never good at setting limits, which I think isn't necessarily indicative of her level of protectiveness.

Edited September 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

True. I guess I was always taught that the only real way to prevent future consequences is to learn from the ones you already experienced/caused. YES, there are other effective ways to prevent consequences - but those generally don't lead to behavior changes, which is why people often find themselves in the same predicaments again and again. Maybe she was too protective and isolated him from the consequences which then lead to more bad behavior. Who really knows bringing up children is such trial and error - there are probably more chicken or egg scenarios that make parenthood seem very daunting.

 

I will say that I always found MQ to be very protective or OQ and her motivation behind that protectiveness was LOVE (both pre & post-island). And you can't really ask for more than that from a parent or human being. The degree to which she was protective, her methods or their execution are really not the important take-away message.

[statsgirl]

Moira's a little younger than I thought.

 

A lot younger, and that changes things.  She would have had to have been married at 20 (seems extremely young to me) and had Oliver when she was 21.  What life experience did she have before she became Mrs. Robert Queen?  Did she even go to university or just a finishing school in Switzerland?  Had she ever held a job before Robert died and she had to take over QC?

 

She also seemed to be someone who didn't have very good parenting skills. Oliver even confronted her about that in s1 when he said he could have used less space and more parenting.  I wonder what kind of family she grew up in.

 

She seemed to me in the flashbacks as someone who put her family first because that and her committees was all her life was.  She didn't know about Robert killing that man and she was horrified at the idea of the Undertaking and pushed Robert to stop it.  I think that must have caused her a lot of guilt after the Gambit went down -- if only she had left it alone, her husband and son would both still be alive.

 

I don't think she knew that Malcolm would try to kill Robert by blowing up the Gambit; there's no way she would have let Oliver go on the boat if she suspected it.  She was worried about what Malcolm would do but  used to following Robert's lead on things.

 

I wonder if her search for the Gambit and warehousing it was because she wanted to know if it had been sabotaged or just gone down in a storm.

 

I wonder if she would have told Oliver that Sandra's baby didn't die. Maybe when she felt he was old enough to be mature about it, maybe never.  I wonder if she left any provision for the child in her will.

[bijoux]

I think Moira made it her thing to protect her family behind their backs-like it was her job to keep everything going as planned in every way. Oliver kind of got that "protective" nature from her. 

Yes, the be protected or else mentality.

 

A lot younger, and that changes things.  She would have had to have been married at 20 (seems extremely young to me) and had Oliver when she was 21.  What life experience did she have before she became Mrs. Robert Queen?  Did she even go to university or just a finishing school in Switzerland?  Had she ever held a job before Robert died and she had to take over QC?

 

She also seemed to be someone who didn't have very good parenting skills. Oliver even confronted her about that in s1 when he said he could have used less space and more parenting.  I wonder what kind of family she grew up in.

 

She seemed to me in the flashbacks as someone who put her family first because that and her committees was all her life was.  She didn't know about Robert killing that man and she was horrified at the idea of the Undertaking and pushed Robert to stop it.  I think that must have caused her a lot of guilt after the Gambit went down -- if only she had left it alone, her husband and son would both still be alive.

 

I don't think she knew that Malcolm would try to kill Robert by blowing up the Gambit; there's no way she would have let Oliver go on the boat if she suspected it.  She was worried about what Malcolm would do but  used to following Robert's lead on things.

 

I wonder if her search for the Gambit and warehousing it was because she wanted to know if it had been sabotaged or just gone down in a storm.

 

I wonder if she would have told Oliver that Sandra's baby didn't die. Maybe when she felt he was old enough to be mature about it, maybe never.  I wonder if she left any provision for the child in her will.

 

I don't see her as having a job before Robert died. I imagine her on a number of boards, probably even chairing more than one.

 

As for the Queen's Gambit, I assumed investigation and weapon to be used against Malcolm at an opportune time.

[statsgirl]

I like the idea of Moira holding the Queen's Gambit to be used against Malcolm in future.  After all, this was the woman who found out about Ra's al Ghul from a dropped "Nanda Parbat".

 

I don't see her as having a job before Robert died. I imagine her on a number of boards, probably even chairing more than one.

That would explain why she had such a hard time running QC after his death to the extent that she went to Malcolm Merlyn for help even knowing how dangerous he was.