The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Yea Fury missed it too, maybe it is just with how much they talk up Peggy across the mcu that it kind of bugs me more. And even people with basic governent security clearances get background checks. Is that not something that SHIELD does, do they just hire anyone who shows up at the door?

'Course, you could really say the same thing about Steve as to how the other characters approach him.

Natasha tells Cap during The Avengers that she thought Coulson was going to swoon when he was (re)discovered, and Nick calls him the greatest soldier in history when Pissed!Steve shows up to gripe at him about Nat's extra assignment in Winter Soldier. Even Loki knew who Rogers was, which makes no sense since Thor doesn't meet Steve until he shows up to help fight the Chitauri. One of the reasons Steve has such a hard time with trying to fit into the modern world is that his Captain America image is always there, and with it comes the expectation that he'll be along to save the day sooner rather than later. If Peggy Carter was the greatest agent in the history of ever, then Steve's got just as much if not more baggage due to his rep.

[Dandesun]

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

'Course, you could really say the same thing about Steve as to how the other characters approach him.

Natasha tells Cap during The Avengers that she thought Coulson was going to swoon when he was (re)discovered, and Nick calls him the greatest soldier in history when Pissed!Steve shows up to gripe at him about Nat's extra assignment in Winter Soldier. Even Loki knew who Rogers was, which makes no sense since Thor doesn't meet Steve until he shows up to help fight the Chitauri. One of the reasons Steve has such a hard time with trying to fit into the modern world is that his Captain America image is always there, and with it comes the expectation that he'll be along to save the day sooner rather than later. If Peggy Carter was the greatest agent in the history of ever, then Steve's got just as much if not more baggage due to his rep.

Loki knew about Steve 'The Soldier' because Clint told him after Loki sceptered him into being his pawn. There were deleted scenes about Clint giving Loki more information. But that's how Loki knew. It wasn't that Steve's legend had reached Asgard. Although the thought of that is pretty funny... not that Loki would have paid attention to it anyway.

But, yeah, Steve's legend looms large and they've put together a few pieces that have it make sense. Howard was desperate to find Steve after he went under and, of course, there was the Agent Carter scene 'I know how much Steve meant to you because I know how much he means to me' (which had people wondering... was everyone in love with Steve Rogers?) Plus, the pictures on the wall at the abandoned camp were Peggy, Howard and Phillips and they ALL were part of the creation of Captain America and worked with Erskine to make it happen. So those three would carry Cap and the Commandos forward into SHIELD. Cap died dramatically as a sacrificial hero so that was always going to carry forward, too, as well how he made the name for himself in the first place whether it was careening through the streets of Brooklyn in pursuit of the Hydra infiltrator or dropping behind enemy lines and single-handedly rescuing over 400 POWs and bringing them and equipment back as well as intel on where Red Skulls bases were and, hell, some of the footage in later movies made it look like Cap was there on D-Day or something so... yeah... you can understand how that guy coming out of the ice and being alive and well would be a Big Fucking Deal.

Again, not that Loki would care but you can buy that Clint Barton: SHIELD Agent would probably think that was wildly important and fill him in big time.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Sorry.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/AVR94_wJCYOtl0jFxWZEfIumh7S3wjldrA-rwt_VFYeB7iUc1ypiUY0/

Kind of.

[shireenbamfatheon]

On 15/9/2017 at 8:20 PM, scriggle said:

Originally Cap3 was supposed to be a direct sequel to Cap2.

How ‘Captain America 3’ got turned on its head

And the bolded section is why I am still pissed that Feige decided to shoehorn the Civil War storyline into the final movie of the Cap trilogy. Steve deserved his last solo movie to be just that: a solo movie. One that completed the story arc set up in the previous 2 movies. [...]

 

 

This turned out not to be true at all. I know this was written a while ago but I have to respond to this because it's bugging me that Downey is constantly painted as this narcissistic self-centered asshole who wants the MCU to revolve around him just because people are pissed at the way CA3 turned into an ensemble film, when the guy fought like hell to get his co-stars bigger paychecks years ago and is constantly referred to by them as someone who helps his co-stars out both on and off the set. Feige and Downey didn't make Civil War happen; the Russos made that decision on their own.

From their interview with Deadline:

QuoteDeadline: You worked for the first time with Robert Downey Jr here, Iron Man changed his life and established the Marvel universe. What's the balancing act in making him feel these jokes don't undermine what he has built?

 

Anthony Russo: It wasn't a given that Downey was going to do Civil War. He wasn't contracted, and so we had to go woo him.

Deadline: What's that like?

Anthony Russo: It was a big deal. Once we convinced Kevin this was the right way to go, he said, okay, now you guys got to go get Downey. [...]"

 

http://deadline.com/2016/05/captain-america-civil-war-joe-anthony-russo-chris-evans-robert-downey-jr-marvel-1201750033/

They also confirm that it was their own decision in another interview:

Quote

 

Speaking with The Hollywood Reporter Joe Russo discussed how Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige's thoughts evolved on their pitch for the upcoming movie, especially after Warner Bros. announced they were making Batman v Superman.

"There have been 11 or 12 [Marvel Cinematic Universe] movies so far, all with a fairly traditional structure," said Russo.  "Our pitch to them was: People will tell you they love chocolate ice cream — until you give it to them five days a week. It's time to give them some rainbow sherbet.

"Kevin is a maverick, and he's very sensitive to how people are responding to his content. He said he thought we might be right. And after they announced Batman v Superman, he said, 'You guys are absolutely right.' We needed to do something challenging with the material, or we were going to start to lose the audience."

 

 

 
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/04/26/director-says-marvel-made-captain-america-civil-war-because-of-batman-v-superman-announcement

I love CA:WS. It's pretty much the perfect Marvel movie in my eyes, and I don't even care that much about Bucky. I'll always admire the Russos for how well-crafted it is and how they nailed Steve's characterization and fleshed out Natasha. But I don't think their mistakes regarding Civil War should be overlooked because of WS's success. They're the ones who convinced Feige to go along with their plan, and as a result, they fucked up Steve's character arc and chose to turn what should have been his movie into an Avengers movie. That's absolutely on them. 

[HunterHunted]

One of the things that I'm weirdly anticipating in Infinity Wars and maybe phase 4 is all of the tech-y characters meeting each other, like Tony, Bruce, Peter, Shuri, and Rocket. They are all so different personality wise. Tony is cynical and kind of a profiteer. Bruce is a high-minded academic who got screwed over by an accident. Peter is blue collar kid who is still pretty innocent. Shuri is a brilliant princess, who has possibly never had anyone tell her "no." Rocket is the most cynical one of them all. He's been screwed over left, right, and sideways. Hopefully these characters get a chance to interact.

I just wish they could find a way to include Fitz and Simmons from Agents of SHIELD. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by HunterHunted
because autocorrect changes Shuri to Sheri

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

One of the things that I'm weirdly anticipating in Infinity Wars and maybe phase 4 is all of the tech-y characters meeting each other, like Tony, Bruce, Peter, Shuri, and Rocket. They are all so different personality wise. Tony is cynical and kind of a profiteer. Bruce is a high-minded academic who got screwed over by an accident. Peter is blue collar kid who is still pretty innocent. Sheri is a brilliant princess, who has possibly never had anyone tell her "no." Rocket is the most cynical one of them all. He's been screwed over left, right, and sideways. Hopefully these characters get a chance to interact.

I just wish they could find a way to include Fitz and Simmons from Agents of SHIELD. 

It's a damn shame we can't add Reed Richards to that list.

[romantic idiot]

Who is Sheri again?

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, romantic idiot said:

Who is Sheri again?

I think they meant Shuri.  

[romantic idiot]

Err sorry same question.

[Wynterwolf]

Just now, romantic idiot said:

Err sorry same question.

Aw!  No worries... she is T'Challa's sister.  She's the one with the fun handshake scene in the trailer.  She is responsible for the panther gauntlets and she's an inventor and the weapons expert.  

[anna0852]

I think that's going to be my favorite part of Infinity Wars, just seeing these different groups meeting each other and interacting for the first time. I'm not sure who's going to try to kill Rocket first, Cap or Natasha.

[JustaPerson]

Oh god just imagining Steve dealing with Rocket is already hilarious. 

[Dee]

In that vein, I need a T'Challa and Drax scene.

[anna0852]

So I'm watching Avengers for approximately the 1000th time it occurs to me that with all the damage the Chitauri army has caused, did Asgard ever offer reparations? After all it was Loki who brought them there. And Odin seems like the kind of King who would be taking responsibility and trying to make things right.

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

One of the things that I'm weirdly anticipating in Infinity Wars and maybe phase 4 is all of the tech-y characters meeting each other, like Tony, Bruce, Peter, Shuri, and Rocket. They are all so different personality wise. Tony is cynical and kind of a profiteer. Bruce is a high-minded academic who got screwed over by an accident. Peter is blue collar kid who is still pretty innocent. Shuri is a brilliant princess, who has possibly never had anyone tell her "no." Rocket is the most cynical one of them all. He's been screwed over left, right, and sideways. Hopefully these characters get a chance to interact.

I think the funniest part would be that the weird little racoon guy is probably the smartest one of them all. He would probably find Iron Man's suit cute.

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/20/2017 at 0:24 PM, Dandesun said:

But, yeah, Steve's legend looms large and they've put together a few pieces that have it make sense. Howard was desperate to find Steve after he went under and, of course, there was the Agent Carter scene 'I know how much Steve meant to you because I know how much he means to me' (which had people wondering... was everyone in love with Steve Rogers?)

I think we can safely exclude Colonel Phillips. But yeah, I did like that the first season showed there's more than just romantic love, and Howard was as affected in his way by losing Steve as Peggy was.

[Dandesun]

15 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think the funniest part would be that the weird little racoon guy is probably the smartest one of them all. He would probably find Iron Man's suit cute.

If Tony retires because a raccoon is smarter than him I will laugh for days. I mean, it won't go down that way I'm certain (it will probably be a lot more tragic -- just my speculation) but I have loved the idea of MCU Tony meeting Rocket ever since I saw them together in the Guardians comic run a few years ago. (Aside from the fact that Tony was totally into sleeping with Gamorra because of Captain Kirk, Rocket recommended against it and she wound up being less than impressed with Tony and just carried on with her day... Tony was mortified and Rocket was all 'I told you...') But Rocket's ability with tech was waaaaaay beyond Tony although he did learn a lot so there's that. Poor Tony, though, he has had a hard enough time dealing with the Chitauri's existence, the thought of him coming across a raccoon who is more cynical, more tech-savvy and better at breaking out of things than Tony might just break him for good.

[HunterHunted]

On 10/22/2017 at 4:49 PM, anna0852 said:

I think that's going to be my favorite part of Infinity Wars, just seeing these different groups meeting each other and interacting for the first time. I'm not sure who's going to try to kill Rocket first, Cap or Natasha.

It's a shame that Scott Lang isn't going to be in Avengers: Infinity Wars 1 because he's the one Earth bound character who I could see intuitively understanding Groot. He does hang out with ants all the time.

Open with a wide shot. Push in a bit, but with Iron Man framed in the center as Tony begins blah blahing about the plan to stop Thanos.

The camera cuts to Groot.

Groot: I am Groot.

The camera cuts to Scott Lang. 

Scott Lang: Why wouldn't you listen to Iron Man. He helped stop a Chitauri invasion of Earth?

Groot: I am Groot.

Scott Lang: You guys saved a galaxy? For real?

Groot: I am Groot. 

Rocket: Yep.

Peter Quill: Pretty much.

Scott Lang: I think we should listen to these guys.

Groot: I am Groot.

After cutting between Groot and Scott, the camera pans wide to show the perplexed faces of the rest of the Avengers. Scott also looks confused about his language proficiency.

Edited October 24, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Bruinsfan]

Heh. I assume that Thor has some kind of magic going on to allow him to speak with anyone though, since I doubt the Asgardians and Jotun were speaking modern English more than a thousand years ago...

[Dandesun]

13 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Heh. I assume that Thor has some kind of magic going on to allow him to speak with anyone though, since I doubt the Asgardians and Jotun were speaking modern English more than a thousand years ago...

If I'm not mistaken, the comics refer to All-Speak... you know because Odin's the All-Father and so that All-Prefix gets used a lot. At any rate, All-Speak allows them to handily communicate with just about anyone or thing... except possibly Groot but I'm not sure. At any rate, that's probably the background reason and they just didn't go into any real explanation.

Or he uses a babelfish.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 22/10/2017 at 3:16 PM, Wynterwolf said:

Aw!  No worries... she is T'Challa's sister.  She's the one with the fun handshake scene in the trailer.  She is responsible for the panther gauntlets and she's an inventor and the weapons expert.  

Can anyone give me a rundown on how they retconned Shuri into existence? Wikipedia tells me she was created in 2005, so not in the BP volume 3 that i was reading. Did they try to explain that she was just off panel when those events were happening or was there other Marvel weirdness going on?

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Can anyone give me a rundown on how they retconned Shuri into existence? Wikipedia tells me she was created in 2005, so not in the BP volume 3 that i was reading. Did they try to explain that she was just off panel when those events were happening or was there other Marvel weirdness going on?

Basically Black Panther Vol 4 was originally supposed to be Ultimate Black Panther, then someone at Marvel decided to make it part of the main universe instead at the last minute, so there's a ton of stuff in it that doesn't make any sense in the bigger continuity. Radioactive Man is Russian, Black Knight is a villain in service of the Vatican, high ranking government Officials have never heard of Wakanda or the Black Panther in spite of them having been major players in the Marvel Universe for a long time, Wakanda has the cure for cancer but refuses to share it with the rest of the world (or, you know, his pal Captain Marvel who died of Cancer while BP and Reed desperately searched for a cure).

The writer wanted T'Challa to have a sister, so he wrote in a sister.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Perfect Xero

[Vera]

Hawkeye set pics:

Spoiler

He's Ronin

 

 

[VCRTracking]

Want to Understand Marvel’s Evolution as a Movie Company? Watch the Evolution of Tony Stark Onscreen

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Heh.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

"Wait.....I know you, don't I?"

[starri]

My husband and I actually had a long discussion of which one was hotter.

The answer is objectively Aaron Taylor-Johnson.

[Perfect Xero]

ATJ looks a lot more like I've always thought a live action Quicksilver should look and does a good job playing the attitude that borders between confidence and arrogance.

On the other hand the character that Peters is playing barely has any resemblance, as written, to his comic counterpart other than both of them running really fast, so it's pretty hard to actually compare their performances.

I do think that Peters does a good job playing XMU Quicksilver as he's written, and even though he's nothing like the comic character, I do find his sequences are my favorite parts of the First Class era movies.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

He beat me by one second.(tm) Tony Stark

[DeathQuaker]

Very late, but I wanted to address the "how come Peggy didn't realize Hydra infiltrated?" thing from upthread. In short, I think she did and she didn't know (she knew there was likely some degree of infiltration and did what she could to stop it, perhaps not the extent). She did what she could to protect key parts and people in SHIELD. And especially since they waited until she was on her deathbed to activate, I'd say she actually did a pretty damn good job of suppressing them. I'll also echo what Dandesun said about Nick and Natasha also being caught off guard, and they're superspies. Hydra was just being that careful.

In long...

On one hand, I am absolutely certain Peggy was aware there was some degree of infiltration and/or potential infiltration. It's a SPY ORGANIZATION, that it will be infiltrated is an eventuality, not a mere possibility. Right now, in the FBI and CIA, there are foreign agents working against us. And in other foreign countries, there are CIA agents planted in other foreign agencies. That is how spying works. They haven't been caught--yet--because not getting caught is what a good spy does. I went to the International Spy Museum not long ago and they have a great exhibit on infiltration; one film they show shows how well a real life spy for the Russians (an American citizen but working for Russia) worked for the CIA and leaked info to the Russians for YEARS before he was got caught in the 80s or 90s (by a couple of women who worked as office-level (rather than field) agents, whom he underestimated because they were women--fans of Peggy will know THAT story well). They remarked on how deep he was in, how likable, etc. and that kept him from looking suspicious. (PS: this real life spy also passed his background check. :) )That's what spies do. They make themselves look trustworthy. All you can do is compartmentalize and check and recheck things often enough that a) something suspicious will arise and b) any infiltration that does occur will be isolated within a given department/project/situation, so that other ops aren't compromised even if that one is. Given how compartmentalized SHIELD is--Nick comments on this a few times--this was probably very much Peggy's design. She knew it would be impossible to prevent entirely infiltration (not only by Hydra but any number of other, more "ordinary" spy agencies); but she compartmentalized things and structured things likely to keep various projects and programs as safe as she could. And this is why SHIELD was able to survive, indeed, Hydra's resurfacing. However difficult a road it took, it still survived and were able to bring forward loyal agents (like indeed the stars of AOS) to keep doing its work.

All the good guys, Coulson, May, etc al -- as well as of course movie level agents Fury, Romanov, Barton, Hill, Sharon Carter--surviving, in spite of everything? THAT is Peggy's legacy, and it's a damned good one.

Hydra was also, I think as someone noted, in pretty deep and playing it very safe, and they too were compartmentalized off, both by their own design but also by the way SHIELD itself was structured. They weren't in every division, but just key groups, like the STRIKE team that Rumlow was lead of. They were very likely reluctant to make any big moves for a long time--and we may never know how many times they may have tried to intitiate SOMETHING and Peggy nipped it in the bud (she probably stopped that group but didn't/wasn't able to dig get back far enough to find other splinter cells). As it was, it took them what... 60, 70 years to surface? Iron Man shows up, they don't go, "Oh crap, superheroes are on the rise, we better move." They stay put. Incredible Hulk? Nope. Captain America returns? Nope. The whole goddamn Avengers? They're like Nah, we can handle them, it's not the time yet, we've got PLANS to keep making. Peggy becomes bedridden? Suddenly they're saying, "Okay, now's the time to make our move." I'd say that speaks well to Peggy. ;) (Some of this, mind, is slightly facetious... I don't think they reallly waited for Peggy to go onto her deathbed, they just had various pieces they were putting in place... though one wonders...)

And then there's the fact that Peggy, while director of SHIELD, wasn't the only influence on SHIELD. At some point the World Security Council became its command, and that obviously had Hydra influences on it for a long time, not only with Pierce but probably also predating him. There's probably NOTHING Peggy could have controlled about that, nothing she could personally have done to prevent that. There were other key influences on SHIELD that were easily corruptible, with Howard Stark easily being one of the weakest links. The whole plot of season 1 of Agent Carter was about Howard's tech getting lost/sold to the highest bidder/almost used as a terrorist weapon because he was easily seduced by one pretty girl.

And speaking of said pretty girl, we can get now to the fact that yeah--as badass as Peggy was and as sure as I am that she did as much as she could to forestall infiltration--we also get to the fact that Peggy herself is a flawed human being who can be too damned trusting. That pretty girl who compromised Howard, Dottie Underwood, also fooled Peggy into believing she was an innocent dancer from Iowa. Peggy would have been killed easily by Dottie if Dottie had felt like taking the easy shot (e.g., shooting her in the back). (Instead she went in up close and then stalled for a million reasons we can speculate upon). Peggy only ever knew Dottie was a Soviet spy because Dottie opted to attack Peggy in a way that revealed her identity (sloppiness or long game on Dottie's part we'll never know). And then a year later, Dottie herself chides Peggy for not seeing "how deep the rot goes" into the SSR. Way back in 1947 Dottie was pretty much trying to tell Peggy Hydra was infiltrating, and Peggy was refusing to believe it because why? Maybe she was too embarrassed at the idea of Dottie, the woman who fooled her, showing her up. Maybe just couldn't believe the good men she worked with could all be so corrupt. Peggy trusted way too easily. Peggy trusted Howard--a man with good intentions but all too easily corrupted by profit and hedonistic tendencies--all too long and too often, and Peggy stuck by him even though she KNEW he would disappoint her again and again. Peggy is the kind of person who sees the best potential in people. She wants badly to bring that out. That often blinds her to their dark sides. While we can hope over time she became more wary, I'm sure there were people who did slip by her, reputation for awesome badass spying or no. (She should have hired Dottie to be a Nazi-spotter. If she didn't, that was probably a mistake. I'm sure Dottie would have been very useful in that role, and her skills as an assassin would have been pointed in a useful direction, which would have been better than trying to just keep her contained.)

But even bearing in mind some people slipped past Peggy because Peggy is too trusting, I'm certain she did a great deal to at least stem Hydra's tide. That's why they tried to take over in 2014, not 1954.

Edited November 1, 2017 by DeathQuaker
making sentences make slightly more sense

[ChelseaNH]

13 minutes ago, DeathQuaker said:

Peggy becomes bedridden? Suddenly they're saying, "Okay, now's the time to make our move."

My understanding is the trigger was the creation of the Insight program and the helicarriers.  As Zola said, mankind was finally ready to surrender freedom for safety.  That was the goal they were working toward.  They only came out into the open because Steve outed them.

[DeathQuaker]

Just now, ChelseaNH said:

My understanding is the trigger was the creation of the Insight program and the helicarriers.  As Zola said, mankind was finally ready to surrender freedom for safety.  That was the goal they were working toward.  They only came out into the open because Steve outed them.

From my original post: "Some of this, mind, is slightly facetious... I don't think they reallly waited for Peggy to go onto her deathbed, they just had various pieces they were putting in place."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, DeathQuaker said:

All the good guys, Coulson, May, etc al -- as well as of course movie level agents Fury, Romanov, Barton, Hill, Sharon Carter--surviving, in spite of everything? THAT is Peggy's legacy, and it's a damned good one.

it is a good legacy, although if you think about it SHIELD often seems to perpetuate its own usefulness by having their agents make their own calls. Howard discovered the Tesseract while scouring the ocean floor in search of Steve, and eventually they decided to use it to build weapons because Loki and Thor were having a family dispute that resulted in the Destroyer's arrival. Nick was originally okay with Project Insight, and he even tells Cap that he should "get with the program" when it comes to making preemptive strikes against enemies, or even potential enemies. Had Hydra not sent Barnes to assassinate Fury, much as they once sent him to murder Howard and Maria Stark, Nick might have ignored whatever qualms he had about the project and allowed its implementation. That, though, would have been dependent on him not realizing he couldn't access the files, and Pierce was foolish to try locking Fury out that way. Paranoid soul that he is, if Hydra hadn't tried to kill him after he realized something was wrong, Project Insight might have succeeded.

Then there's Clint and Natasha. Barton's decision to not only let Nat live but bring her in from the cold under SHIELD's protection could have quite easily gone the other way. She was fully entrenched, and whatever happened in (I guess) Budapest to convince him that she was ready to stop using her powers for evil could have ended up being a ruse. Imagine that conversation between Barton and whoever, most likely Nick.

[Wynterwolf]

I... don't even know (Made this a link because kinda, maybe spoilery.  But there are more set pics out there - on Just Jared's twitter - that basically show the same things).  

 

https://twitter.com/MCUExchange/status/926105462252101632

[HunterHunted]

On 11/1/2017 at 11:48 AM, DeathQuaker said:

And then there's the fact that Peggy, while director of SHIELD, wasn't the only influence on SHIELD. At some point the World Security Council became its command, and that obviously had Hydra influences on it for a long time, not only with Pierce but probably also predating him. There's probably NOTHING Peggy could have controlled about that, nothing she could personally have done to prevent that.

Powers Boothe's character, Gideon Malick, was depicted as part of the World Security Council in The Avengers. He would later show up in Agents of SHIELD. They would explore his backstory. He was shown to be at least a 2nd generation member of HYDRA. It's implied that his familial involvement might be longer than that because the episodes that really delve into HYDRA in season 3 talk about how HYDRA has existed for centuries. It's too bad that some of this couldn't really be discussed in the movies, but it's far too much detail for a single film.

On another note, I know they'll never fully integrate the tv shows into the movies. However, there is nothing really stopping them from slipping in Easter eggs from the tv shows or brief mentions like Tony saying to Peter "Listen Underoos, it was between you and that brooding weirdo in Hell's Kitchen." Or news crawls about Wilson Fisk being arrested, missing billionaire Danny Rand found, another attack by inhuman terrorist, Quake, Watchdog attacks increase, or noted industrialist Gideon Malick found dead. It's stuff that rewards the tv viewers without detracting from the movie viewing experience. It's also stuff thst can be done late in post-production without requiring a ton of coordination between the two halves (film and tv).

That being said, it's still rather unconscionable that there was any discussion of the Sokovia Accords in Civil War without even the briefest of acknowledgement that the entire water supply of Earth is tainted and randomly activating inhuman DNA. Thunderbolt Ross is apoplectic over Bucky, Cap, and Falcon when a glass of water gave a person the ability to set anything on fire. A fish taco gave someone the ability to melt any metal. Are you kidding me with this nonsense.

Furthermore if this is true:

Spoiler

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I... don't even know (Made this a link because kinda, maybe spoilery.  But there are more set pics out there - on Just Jared's twitter - that basically show the same things).  

 

https://twitter.com/MCUExchange/status/926105462252101632

Then, I don't know how they can avoid bringing Agents of SHIELD into the fold if the time stone is used and they all revert back to Avengers and before the Battle of New York when Coulson was still alive.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

Powers Boothe's character, Gideon Malick, was depicted as part of the World Security Council in The Avengers. He would later show up in Agents of SHIELD. They would explore his backstory. He was shown to be at least a 2nd generation member of HYDRA. It's implied that his familial involvement might be longer than that because the episodes that really delve into HYDRA in season 3 talk about how HYDRA has existed for centuries. It's too bad that some of this couldn't really be discussed in the movies, but it's far too much detail for a single film.

On another note, I know they'll never fully integrate the tv shows into the movies. However, there is nothing really stopping them from slipping in Easter eggs from the tv shows or brief mentions like Tony saying to Peter "Listen Underoos, it was between you and that brooding weirdo in Hell's Kitchen." Or news crawls about Wilson Fisk being arrested, missing billionaire Danny Rand found, another attack by inhuman terrorist, Quake, Watchdog attacks increase, or noted industrialist Gideon Malick found dead. It's stuff that rewards the tv viewers without detracting from the movie viewing experience. It's also stuff thst can be done late in post-production without requiring a ton of coordination between the two halves (film and tv).

That being said, it's still rather unconscionable that there was any discussion of the Sokovia Accords in Civil War without even the briefest of acknowledgement that the entire water supply of Earth is tainted and randomly activating inhuman DNA. Thunderbolt Ross is apoplectic over Bucky, Cap, and Falcon when a glass of water gave a person the ability to set anything on fire. A fish taco gave someone the ability to melt any metal. Are you kidding me with this nonsense.

Furthermore if this is true:

  Hide contents

Then, I don't know how they can avoid bringing Agents of SHIELD into the fold if the time stone is used and they all revert back to Avengers and before the Battle of New York when Coulson was still alive.

I believe that the film people have said that the TV shows aren't part of the MCU film canon. They're basically 2 different universes where the TV universe happens to have major events happening that are very similar to what happens in the films.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I believe that the film people have said that the TV shows aren't part of the MCU film canon. They're basically 2 different universes where the TV universe happens to have major events happening that are very similar to what happens in the films.

I don't think so. They are part of the same canon and have crossed over including appearances by Nick Fury, Maria Hill, and Sif in Agents of SHIELD.  They've also crossed back because the helicarrier and rescue equipment that the Avengers use to rescue people in Age of Ultron was given to them by Coulson's team in Agents of SHIELD. They've also crossed back over with Agent Carter. There are a combination of reasons why the the TV shows and movies don't cross over more:

1. TV doesn't have the budget to get the movie actors to guest
2. Coordinating the timeframes for working on the movies and the TV shows is a pain, as season of 1 of Agents of SHIELD can attest and they had to spin their wheels until Winter Soldier
3. Kevin Feige is determined to never have to speak to Ike Perlmutter ever again

However:

1. Feige is incorrectly assuming that the crossovers have to be more than a cameo
2. The Netflix shows, especially, have cast film caliber actors in Charlie Cox, Kristen Ritter, Vincent D'Onofrio, Sigorney Weaver, Jon Bernthal, Alfre Woodard, Mahershala Ali, David Tennant, and Wai Ching Ho
3. The Netflix shows have written film caliber villains played by film caliber actors, which at this point includes multiple Academy Award nominees and a winner

I can't imagine anyone that a Spider-Man sequel might cast as the Kingpin who would be better than D'Onofrio. It's literally fucking stupid of Feige to pretend like the TV universe isn't doing some things just as well or better than the movies. And frankly Bob Iger needs to step in if Feige is so willing to shit the bed and undermine the TV properties.

Edited November 3, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Kel Varnsen]

53 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Feige is incorrectly assuming that the crossovers have to be more than a cameo

Using cost or the idea that the movie stars are too big for TV is kind of a bullshit excuse and am surprised like you said that someone higher up hasn't forced the issue (since Disney already apparently forced ABC to keep Agents of Shield on the air). I mean if Scarlet, or Hemsworth or whoever can spend a week out of their schedule doing SNL, how hard is it to spend a day doing an episode of Agents of Shield.  Hell Don Cheadle, Anthony Mackie, Tom Holland and Zoe Saldana have all done Lip Sync Battle episodes.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

I don't think so. They are part of the same canon and have crossed over including appearances by Nick Fury, Maria Hill, and Sif in Agents of SHIELD.  They've also crossed back because the helicarrier and rescue equipment that the Avengers use to rescue people in Age of Ultron was given to them by Coulson's team in Agents of SHIELD. They've also crossed back over with Agent Carter. There are a combination of reasons why the the TV shows and movies don't cross over more:

1. TV doesn't have the budget to get the movie actors to guest
2. Coordinating the timeframes for working on the movies and the TV shows is a pain, as season of 1 of Agents of SHIELD can attest and they had to spin their wheels until Winter Soldier
3. Kevin Feige is determined to never have to speak to Ike Perlmutter ever again

However:

1. Feige is incorrectly assuming that the crossovers have to be more than a cameo
2. The Netflix shows, especially, have cast film caliber actors in Charlie Cox, Kristen Ritter, Vincent D'Onofrio, Sigorney Weaver, Jon Bernthal, Alfre Woodard, Mershala Ali, David Tennant, and Wai Ching Ho
3. The Netflix shows have written film caliber villains played by film caliber actors, which at this point includes multiple Academy Award nominees and a winner

I can't imagine anyone that a Spider-Man sequel might cast as the Kingpin who would be better than D'Onofrio. It's literally fucking stupid of Feige to pretend like the TV universe isn't doing some things just as well or better than the movies. And frankly Bob Iger needs to step in if Feige is so willing to shit the bed and undermine the TV properties.

I will add one more reason if the writer on the  Trek BBS is correct. To settle a TV writers strike the TV writer who introduced a character, even adaptations like the already created Marvel characters owns the rights to it so they are only crossed over to the movies in specific cases, like wanting to do a Starsky and Hutch movie for example. It is so nobody will pay that writer to say having Kingpin appear in a  Spider-Man. However that may be a bad example since Kingpen was introduced in the Ben Afflack movie, I never heard him get that far into the weeds of the contracts. But going by his argument for sure the  other Defenders cast as with the Agents of SHIELD/Carter cast, except Agents Coulson and Carter  who were introduced in a movie cost too much.  And for story reason Whedon wanted Coulson to remain dead. He went on to say it doesn't work the other way from movies to TV so you had Director Fury, Howling Commandos, Agents Coulson, Carter, Sitwell, Hill along with Lady Sif of Asgard make the jump over to the ABC wing of the MCU.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Using cost or the idea that the movie stars are too big for TV is kind of a bullshit excuse and am surprised like you said that someone higher up hasn't forced the issue (since Disney already apparently forced ABC to keep Agents of Shield on the air). I mean if Scarlet, or Hemsworth or whoever can spend a week out of their schedule doing SNL, how hard is it to spend a day doing an episode of Agents of Shield.  Hell Don Cheadle, Anthony Mackie, Tom Holland and Zoe Saldana have all done Lip Sync Battle episodes.

I don't know anything about the BTS when it comes to scheduling, but the reason Mark Ruffalo's version of the Hulk will never have his own movie is because Universal doesn't want to share the sandbox with Marvel and Disney. Why not when the two Hulk movies in the past either didn't do well or were so badly panned that I don't think the MCU could do worse, but for various legal reasons they just can't find a way to make everyone play nice.. Ruffalo has said he doesn't even necessarily want a standalone picture, but maybe Disney's influence doesn't extend as far as some would believe when it comes to getting their way.

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I don't think so. They are part of the same canon and have crossed over including appearances by Nick Fury, Maria Hill, and Sif in Agents of SHIELD.  They've also crossed back because the helicarrier and rescue equipment that the Avengers use to rescue people in Age of Ultron was given to them by Coulson's team in Agents of SHIELD. They've also crossed back over with Agent Carter. There are a combination of reasons why the the TV shows and movies don't cross over more:

The idea is that they're different universes with some major similarities. The Peggy Carter and Howard Stark in Agent Carter are not the same characters who are in the Captain America and Iron Man movies. The Sif who is in Thor is not the same person who shows up in Agents of SHIELD.

As I understand it, the original idea was that they could be the same universe with Agents of SHIELD being focused shadowy stuff that wouldn't make a big impact on the overall lore so they could get away with minimal crossover.

Then Agents of SHIELD decided that there should be tons of Inhumans with superpowers all around the globe and Hydra was actually an organization built around worshiping an ancient Inhuman and the movie people said, "uh, no, we're not rewriting our couple hundred million dollar budget films that take 2 years to produce because some TV writer wanted to make Skye the most special who ever specialed," so they're considered different universes now.

[HunterHunted]

24 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

The idea is that they're different universes with some major similarities. The Peggy Carter and Howard Stark in Agent Carter are not the same characters who are in the Captain America and Iron Man movies. The Sif who is in Thor is not the same person who shows up in Agents of SHIELD.

As I understand it, the original idea was that they could be the same universe with Agents of SHIELD being focused shadowy stuff that wouldn't make a big impact on the overall lore so they could get away with minimal crossover.

Then Agents of SHIELD decided that there should be tons of Inhumans with superpowers all around the globe and Hydra was actually an organization built around worshiping an ancient Inhuman and the movie people said, "uh, no, we're not rewriting our couple hundred million dollar budget films that take 2 years to produce because some TV writer wanted to make Skye the most special who ever specialed," so they're considered different universes now.

Except at no point have TPTB indicated that the TV universe is separate from the film universe. There is nothing textually supporting your argument. Perlmutter has never said it. Feige has only said that "hopefully the TV universe will cross over with the movie universe." No one in any power has been foolish enough to say that they are different universes because the entire enterprise has been sold to Netflix, ABC, viewers, and advertisers as a united universe where the events of one property may impact the rest of the properties. However the cold war between Perlmutter and Feige has been the biggest reason that they won't cross over. Nor is there any reason that that characters like Skye have to absolutely be the ones to cross over. That being said, they have still been crossing over. The Darkhold book featured in season 4 of Agents of SHIELD is the missing book in Doctor Strange. 

[Perfect Xero]

40 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Except at no point have TPTB indicated that the TV universe is separate from the film universe. There is nothing textually supporting your argument. Perlmutter has never said it. Feige has only said that "hopefully the TV universe will cross over with the movie universe." No one in any power has been foolish enough to say that they are different universes because the entire enterprise has been sold to Netflix, ABC, viewers, and advertisers as a united universe where the events of one property may impact the rest of the properties. However the cold war between Perlmutter and Feige has been the biggest reason that they won't cross over. Nor is there any reason that that characters like Skye have to absolutely be the ones to cross over. That being said, they have still been crossing over. The Darkhold book featured in season 4 of Agents of SHIELD is the missing book in Doctor Strange. 

That's fine and all, I'm just saying that all indications that I've heard from people who aren't blowing smoke for PR reasons is that the people who make the movies completely ignore the TV side of things, which is why there have been no references to major events like the Inhuman population exploding around the world.

Anthony Mackie might not be part of the TPTB, but he was pretty up front on his understanding that the movies and shows are completely separate universes being the reason that there's been no major crossover, I don't think that he just pulled an idea like that out of nowhere.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

That's fine and all, I'm just saying that all indications that I've heard from people who aren't blowing smoke for PR reasons is that the people who make the movies completely ignore the TV side of things, which is why there have been no references to major events like the Inhuman population exploding around the world.

Anthony Mackie might not be part of the TPTB, but he was pretty up front on his understanding that the movies and shows are completely separate universes being the reason that there's been no major crossover, I don't think that he just pulled an idea like that out of nowhere.

I suspected you were referencing Anthony Mackie. He's stated in other interviews that he only knows as far as his job. At best you claim that his statement is conjecture based on not seeing the names of anyone from the TV side of things on a call sheet, but at no point does that mean that film and TV are separate universes.

Quote

"All we know is everyone who was in the first Guardians of the Galaxy is in Guardians 2. Spider-Man is in Spider-Man. You don’t know who else is in it,” he laughs. “They know. But like, when I was in Ant-Man, I didn’t know I was in Ant-Man—I just got a call from Kevin [Feige] saying, ‘Hey, what are you doing next weekend?’ When we did Avengers, I didn’t know I was in Avengers. I just got a call: ‘Hey! What are you doing in two weeks?’

“I am now an Avenger,” he smiles proudly. “But no one tells me anything. You never know when they’re going to call you, you just want to be ready when they do.”

For years, and just a few years ago, Mackie dreamed of playing Black Panther (Chadwick Boseman eventually landed the role, signing a five-picture deal). But despite his interest in the character, and perhaps because of his investment in the company, he shies away from joining in on the call to hire an African-American helmer behind the camera on the MCU’s first stand-alone black superhero movie.

“I don’t think it’s important at all,” he says. “As a director your job is to tell a story. You know, they didn’t get a horse to direct Seabiscuit! The thing is I don’t think the race of the director has to do with their ability to tell a story. I think it’s all about the director’s ability to be able to relate to that story and do it justice. I think men can direct women, and two of my greatest work experiences were with female directors. So I think it all depends. May the best man—or woman—win.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anthony-mackie-talks-marvel-dictators-and-how-republicans-suppress-the-vote

Furthermore, he's been smacked down as to his dumbass quotes about Black Panther. At the same event where he stated that the TV shows occurred in a different universe from the films, Mackie stated that he'd also like to play Blade in future Marvel films. He's an authority on only one thing in the MCU--that's whether Anthony Mackie will continue to play Falcon. Why would he know shit about films he doesn't appear in? Why would he know shit about the larger plans for the Marvel universe? His character is barely essential in Captain America films.

[Perfect Xero]

Okay, they're the same universe, but nothing that happens on TV has ever been referenced in a movie and it seems unlikely that it will be any time soon?

[Joe]

I remember reading somewhere that essentially the movies are part of the shows universe, but the shows aren't part of the movieverse.

[HunterHunted]

9 hours ago, Joe said:

I remember reading somewhere that essentially the movies are part of the shows universe, but the shows aren't part of the movieverse.

From what I've seen this is mostly correct. The only distinction that I'll add is that the shows are part of the movieverse, but only in ways that aren't distracting or confusing to people who don't watch the shows. For example: 

Fury's line is "I pulled it out of mothballs with a couple of old friends." People who watched Agents of SHIELD know that it was with Coulson. However, if the line had been "I pulled it out of mothballs with Coulson," the Avengers and audience would have been confused because most of the cinematic part of the universe still thinks Coulson is dead. It would have only invited more questions for Fury in the movies. 

Another example that I mentioned above is in Doctor Strange where a book is clearly missing from the forbidden section. The missing book is the Darkhold, which is seen in season 4 of Agents of SHIELD.

The thing that is kind of ridiculous about contending that the movies are a separate universe from the tv shows is that it largely ignores that the film franchises are largely separate from each other, except for the Avengers films and Civil War. In Iron Man 3, Tony and Rhodes rescue the President from AIM. According to Marvel, that happened in December 2012 and before SHIELD fell. AIM attacks Airforce 1, but not a single person in SHIELD nor Captain America pops up to aid Tony during Iron Man 3? AIM kidnapped the President! This incident is never mentioned again. In 2013, Malekith uses the aether to attack London and warp all of reality. The only thing standing in his way are Thor, Jane, and Jane's friends. There is no SHIELD involvement despite Jane and Thor going missing for a significant amount of time through a spatial rift. Once again, this all occurs before SHIELD falls in 2014.

Let's be honest, the movies barely cross over either except for some references and end credit sequences. This is intentional.

Edited November 3, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Raja]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Okay, they're the same universe, but nothing that happens on TV has ever been referenced in a movie and it seems unlikely that it will be any time soon?

Just the Vision's line about an exponential increase in enhanced beings in Civil War where the only such explosion has been evidenced on the Agents Of SHIELD Inhuman storyline.. However about the only contradiction has been the beginning of Age of Ultron when we are lead to believe that since The Winter Soldier that The Avengers have been travelling around taking down Hydra while the Agents Of SHIELD gave us a semi public Hydra fighting a secret war with the survivors of SHIELD. and after using almost all their assets finally gave The Avengers the location of the last hydra base  but actually some Asgardian tech for the opening battle scene.

Since the movie was set the TV show runner was the one who missed on the secret war representations

[Cobalt Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

However about the only contradiction has been the beginning of Age of Ultron when we are lead to believe that since The Winter Soldier that The Avengers have been travelling around taking down Hydra while the Agents Of SHIELD gave us a semi public Hydra fighting a secret war with the survivors of SHIELD. and after using almost all their assets finally gave The Avengers the location of the last hydra base  but actually some Asgardian tech for the opening battle scene.

I'm not sure its completely a contradiction. At the end of Winter Soldier, Strucker is talking to one of the doctors, and he says something to the effect of that there were "others" doing Hydra's work, and they could be handed over to Captain America and Company while they continued their work with Loki's scepter and the Mind Stone. He notes that the bodies of the other test subjects would be buried so deep their own ghosts couldn't find them, but that the then-unnamed Maximoff twins were their horrifying miracle. I haven't actually watched Agents of SHIELD at all, but in the movieverse there was definite reference to being willing to give up some of Hydra's lesser projects in order to keep the more important work going.

[Raja]

Just now, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm not sure its completely a contradiction. At the end of Winter Soldier, Strucker is talking to one of the doctors, and he says something to the effect of that there were "others" doing Hydra's work, and they could be handed over to Captain America and Company while they continued their work with Loki's scepter and the Mind Stone. He notes that the bodies of the other test subjects would be buried so deep their own ghosts couldn't find them, but that the then-unnamed Maximoff twins were their horrifying miracle. I haven't actually watched Agents of SHIELD at all, but in the movieverse there was definite reference to being willing to give up some of Hydra's lesser projects in order to keep the more important work going.

The contradiction would be on the TV side where they were alone before finally calling in The Avengers upon finding Loki's staff . Not that while they were fighting to survive the big stick of The Avengers were methodically mowing down Hydra as if they were not really needed on the bottom.