The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Spartan Girl]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:51 PM, AimingforYoko said:

EW Interview with Kevin Feige.

Here's a little nugget for all the "Thunderbolt" Ross fans:

Ah, failing upward. Thank God that could never happen in real life.

Ugh. So that’s the one comic book storyline Feige deems worthy of keeping in the MCU? Screw him.

[katha]

I've been rewatching the Avengers movies recently and was once again struck by RDJ's work in them. IMO he really anchors these movies, not despite but because Tony is often a very flawed jerk. The humanity and mess makes him believable and the rest of the cast plays off him and comes off stronger and more grounded as well as a result. I think it's easy to take for granted what he delivered there, but it's astonishing work. Half the time you want Tony to step on a lego, he's so annoying, and that's a real testament to the actor pushing the character beyond the leading man formula. 

The movies post Endgame struggling to some degree shows this as well. They're searching for a central character to ground it, but it's not that easy. I think it was supposed to be Captain Marvel but now they're pivoting towards Strange a bit? Which...yeah, it's a bit the same formula, but also Cumberbatch just being game to come across as unlikable and also play second fiddle to others. He's got a good understanding of what the character can and can't be. 

[ursula]

7 hours ago, katha said:

They're searching for a central character to ground it, but it's not that easy.

I think it was supposed to be Spider-Man. They set him up as Iron Man Jr from his introduction. But the drama with Sony after FFH showed how precarious it was to hinge the MCU on a character that Disney didn't fully own so they were left floundering. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, katha said:

The movies post Endgame struggling to some degree shows this as well. They're searching for a central character to ground it, but it's not that easy. I think it was supposed to be Captain Marvel but now they're pivoting towards Strange a bit? Which...yeah, it's a bit the same formula, but also Cumberbatch just being game to come across as unlikable and also play second fiddle to others. He's got a good understanding of what the character can and can't be. 

 

2 hours ago, ursula said:

I think it was supposed to be Spider-Man. They set him up as Iron Man Jr from his introduction. But the drama with Sony after FFH showed how precarious it was to hinge the MCU on a character that Disney didn't fully own so they were left floundering. 

I would have said they were setting up T’Challa and potentially Peter both in that role. Captain Marvel and Strange are both too focused on their own things to center the Avengers. I think we’re still in an in between place while they set up the new Avengers lineup. 

[arc]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:38 AM, katha said:

I think it was supposed to be Captain Marvel but now they're pivoting towards Strange a bit?

I thought it was always the plan to make Strange the MCU's Tony 2.0: the next sarcastic tough-love dad. Take this article with a grain of salt as it was part of the marketing push for MOM, but: https://movieweb.com/doctor-strange-is-the-new-anchor-of-the-mcu-kevin-feige/

[tv echo]

Walt Disney Studios will have a presentation at CinemaCon on April 26 - I expect that this presentation will include upcoming MCU films...

CinemaCon, April 24-27, 2023 (Las Vegas, NV)
https://cinemacon.com/schedule

Quote

26 APRIL
*  *  *
9:30 AM - 12:15 PM
...
THE WALT DISNEY STUDIOS INVITES YOU TO A SPECIAL PRESENTATION HIGHLIGHTING ITS UPCOMING RELEASE SCHEDULE

[tv echo]

Avengers Musical from Hawkeye Will (Sorta) Come to Life This Summer
By Matt Webb Mitovich / February 23 2023
https://tvline.com/2023/02/23/hawkeye-rogers-the-avengers-musical-disney-california-adventure-park/

Quote

It was announced on Thursday that Rogers: The Musical — the (fictional) Broadway show within the MCU TV series Hawkeye — has booked a “limited time” engagement this summer at the Hyperion Stage inside the Disneyland-adjacent Disney California Adventure Park.

Further details on the short, one-act musical are to come; watch the Peggy Carter-centric teaser below.

Edited February 24, 2023 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Elizabeth Olsen Just Teased Scarlet Witch’s Big Return
By Alycia Leach    February 24, 2023
https://thedirect.com/article/elizabeth-olsen-scarlet-witch-return

Quote

In a recent appearance at Kuwait’s Comfest Con, Scarlet Witch star Elizabeth Olsen has let slip some exciting news for Marvel fans.

During a question and answer session, a fan asked the actress what storyline she would like to take on for Wanda Maximoff, whom Olsen plays in the MCU. 
*  *  *
"Well, honestly, if I were to tell you exactly what I would want, I think I would be spoiling something. Because Kevin Feige genuinely asks us what we want to do with the character and then he does it. So… I don’t know if I can share, but I just want to come back!"

Edited February 24, 2023 by tv echo

[Chyromaniac]

Limited Time?  Oh come on Disney - that theater has been dead space in DCA for years now.  Make "Rogers" a permanent daily show.  If Universal can afford to blow up Waterworld twice a day for 30 years, you can pay for some singing Avengers.  Shoot, the superhero meet and greet cast are probably qualified to play their own parts already - just give them a few OT shifts to be in this.

[cambridgeguy]

23 hours ago, arc said:

I thought it was always the plan to make Strange the MCU's Tony 2.0: the next sarcastic tough-love dad. Take this article with a grain of salt as it was part of the marketing push for MOM, but: https://movieweb.com/doctor-strange-is-the-new-anchor-of-the-mcu-kevin-feige/

If they really plan to lean into the multiverse then he probably should be the one to anchor it.  That being said, if they really wanted to go outside the box they'd have Loki do it.  No, he doesn't have interesting facial hair, but...

-Has massive daddy issues.

-Was always jealous of another guy his father seemed to adore.  Bonus points for it being his actual brother instead of a frozen dude.

-Murdered mom.

-Spent most of his life as a spoiled, privileged jackass.

-Will happily snark and quip his way through a movie.

-Guaranteed to clash with the more idealistic members of the team.

[Guest]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:44 AM, arc said:

I thought it was always the plan to make Strange the MCU's Tony 2.0: the next sarcastic tough-love dad. Take this article with a grain of salt as it was part of the marketing push for MOM, but: https://movieweb.com/doctor-strange-is-the-new-anchor-of-the-mcu-kevin-feige/

Just for practical reasons, I don’t think that any of the “older” characters introduced in the first three phases were intended to take the role filled Tony or Cap in the infinity saga. I just can’t see the actors choosing to stick around in that prominent a role for much longer. I also really doubt that any of the extremely powerful characters (like Strange or Carol) would be placed in that role because team-ups always involve them being nerfed or given side quests.

Watching phase 3 when it was released, I thought Peter and T’Challa were intended to lead with each having qualities similar to Tony and Cap. Obviously, that’s no longer possible. Depending on what has happened with Sony, Peter could still take that role but there are also a few contenders in the younger heroes who have been introduced, Yelena in particular. 

6 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

-Murdered mom.

Has a murdered mom or (indirectly) helped murder his mom? I read it both ways. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

Has a murdered mom or (indirectly) helped murder his mom? I read it both ways. 

Yes. Frigga was killed because Loki told the dark elf leader which staircase to take. I think he meant for Thor to be killed, because law of averages, but she was killed instead since she would tell him where the Aether was.

There's been some speculation that Kate will be the leader of the Young Avengers when/if that happens, but there's also very little news from  Marvel regarding getting Hailee Steinfeld back in the role. If anyone's heard something, I'd love to know.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Yes. Frigga was killed because Loki told the dark elf leader which staircase to take. I think he meant for Thor to be killed, because law of averages, but she was killed instead since she would tell him where the Aether was.

I guess I should have added an emoji to show I was joking. I don’t think he meant to kill any particular person. If Thor or Odin died it would be icing on the cake but just wanted the world to burn and never consider Frigga might die. 

 

30 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

There's been some speculation that Kate will be the leader of the Young Avengers when/if that happens, but there's also very little news from  Marvel regarding getting Hailee Steinfeld back in the role. If anyone's heard something, I'd love to know.

On of the International Disney sights confirmed she’ll be back in phase 5. I’ve seen a lot of spec that she could appear in Echo and possibly Daredevil. 

[Bill1978]

14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

There's been some speculation that Kate will be the leader of the Young Avengers when/if that happens,

With each announcement of an upcoming movie or tv shows I get more and more disappointed that there is nothing on the horizon for Young Avengers. Honestly, most of the announced titles in the next two phases don't make me excited (not saying they won't be exciting, happy to change my attitude with a trailer etc.) but I just feel they've teased so much Young Avengers stuff its annoying they haven't committed to a confirmed project and so it's just disappointing that the used characters are more like a tease than having a purpose in the MCU. Although if Teddy appears in an upcoming project like The Marvels or Secret Invasion...

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

With each announcement of an upcoming movie or tv shows I get more and more disappointed that there is nothing on the horizon for Young Avengers. Honestly, most of the announced titles in the next two phases don't make me excited (not saying they won't be exciting, happy to change my attitude with a trailer etc.) but I just feel they've teased so much Young Avengers stuff its annoying they haven't committed to a confirmed project and so it's just disappointing that the used characters are more like a tease than having a purpose in the MCU. Although if Teddy appears in an upcoming project like The Marvels or Secret Invasion...

For me after meeting I think most of the major players I think I am ok without a Young Avengers movie or show. Mostly because there seems to be a major age difference between the major characters. Kate is what 22, while I think Kamala and America Chavez are like 14 or 15. And unless they do a big age jump when they bring them back Wanda's kids are even younger. What 22 year old wants to hang out with a 15 year old? Plus at 22 Kate is old enough where she could be an actual Avenger (Steve and Natasha were both around 26 in their first appearances). Her peers are more like Shuri and Shang Chi.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

For me after meeting I think most of the major players I think I am ok without a Young Avengers movie or show. Mostly because there seems to be a major age difference between the major characters. Kate is what 22, while I think Kamala and America Chavez are like 14 or 15. And unless they do a big age jump when they bring them back Wanda's kids are even younger. What 22 year old wants to hang out with a 15 year old? Plus at 22 Kate is old enough where she could be an actual Avenger (Steve and Natasha were both around 26 in their first appearances). Her peers are more like Shuri and Shang Chi.

I don't know about the hang when we are talking about a hero/fighting squad where a mid to late 20 something leader with newly adult 18 year olds is almost an international standard 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

With each announcement of an upcoming movie or tv shows I get more and more disappointed that there is nothing on the horizon for Young Avengers. Honestly, most of the announced titles in the next two phases don't make me excited (not saying they won't be exciting, happy to change my attitude with a trailer etc.) but I just feel they've teased so much Young Avengers stuff its annoying they haven't committed to a confirmed project and so it's just disappointing that the used characters are more like a tease than having a purpose in the MCU. Although if Teddy appears in an upcoming project like The Marvels or Secret Invasion...

It needs to be taken with a heavy does of salt but there is a rumor that the Agatha show will introduce an older version of the twins (or at least Billy) and Teddy. 

 

10 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

For me after meeting I think most of the major players I think I am ok without a Young Avengers movie or show. Mostly because there seems to be a major age difference between the major characters. Kate is what 22, while I think Kamala and America Chavez are like 14 or 15. And unless they do a big age jump when they bring them back Wanda's kids are even younger. What 22 year old wants to hang out with a 15 year old? Plus at 22 Kate is old enough where she could be an actual Avenger (Steve and Natasha were both around 26 in their first appearances). Her peers are more like Shuri and Shang Chi.

I don’t think the age difference is a big deal. Kate may be closer in age to Shuri and Shang Chi but she is no where near their maturity or life experience. Kate’s no where near ready to be an Avenger. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

I don’t think the age difference is a big deal. Kate may be closer in age to Shuri and Shang Chi but she is no where near their maturity or life experience. Kate’s no where near ready to be an Avenger. 

I would argue that "ready" is relative, though. Yes, Kate is young and still inexperienced, but even a seasoned Avenger can be caught off guard, as evidenced by Barton being mindwarped by Loki into helping him. I know, lack of superpowers, but that's not really the point.

"How many agents did I...?"

"No. Don't do that to yourself, Clint. This is Loki. Monsters and magic and things we were never trained to deal with."

I would perhaps say that Kate is more a street level hero than someone to deal with earth-sized threats, but the same could be said for Peter Parker, who I believe is around Kate's age but acts younger IMO, if only because of the stream of pop culture references he makes. Really, the franchise needs those too as much as it needs the ones who can fly off into space or deal with other dimensions. Yeah, Carol Danvers can smash a warship into pieces by herself, but Carol has other obligations more often than not.

[Raja]

I see Kate Bishop much like the West Pointer who spent a large portion of his youth preparing and suddenly  he is a 22 year old company commander but a rookie to actual combat. Not quite the war veterans Captain America and Thor leading spies and powered civilians but the Avengers just got lucky 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would argue that "ready" is relative, though. Yes, Kate is young and still inexperienced, but even a seasoned Avenger can be caught off guard, as evidenced by Barton being mindwarped by Loki into helping him. I know, lack of superpowers, but that's not really the point.

In my opinion, that an agent with years of experience could be caught off guard in an Avengers level situation is just more proof sheltered Kate is far from ready. I think the lack of superpowers is extremely relevant because Kate also doesn’t have superpowers. America is much younger but also has a lot more experience than Kate. We saw what unpowered Yelena was able to do to Kate. If Yelena wanted to Kate would be dead. 

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would perhaps say that Kate is more a street level hero than someone to deal with earth-sized threats, but the same could be said for Peter Parker, who I believe is around Kate's age but acts younger IMO, if only because of the stream of pop culture references he makes.

Peter is younger than Kate. When we last saw him he was in his senior year of high school. He also has a lot more experience than her and powers that help to him survive. 

To me Kate is a natural fit for the Young Avengers and I would be very surprised if we don’t see the YA characters in the Avengers movie. 

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would perhaps say that Kate is more a street level hero than someone to deal with earth-sized threats, but the same could be said for Peter Parker, who I believe is around Kate's age but acts younger IMO, if only because of the stream of pop culture references he makes. Really, the franchise needs those too as much as it needs the ones who can fly off into space or deal with other dimensions. Yeah, Carol Danvers can smash a warship into pieces by herself, but Carol has other obligations more often than not.

On a side note though Peter's powers seem to be kind of downplayed in the MCU. That whole proportional strength of a spider thing has to put him among the strongest humans we have seen (at least ones that don't turn green). It has to make him stronger physically than Cap right? Combine that with his spider sense that that is some pretty awesome powers.

10 hours ago, Raja said:

I don't know about the hang when we are talking about a hero/fighting squad where a mid to late 20 something leader with newly adult 18 year olds is almost an international standard 

Sure if you want a movie that is just fight scenes it would work, but it is usually the scenes in between the fights that drive the plots forward. And if I see a 22 year old and a 14 year old it would seem more like a babysitter or tutor kind of relationship not equals on a team.

2 hours ago, Raja said:

I see Kate Bishop much like the West Pointer who spent a large portion of his youth preparing and suddenly  he is a 22 year old company commander but a rookie to actual combat. 

Sure but in those cases the 22 year old west point graduate gets sent to battle with the real soldiers, not to run the cadet program for high school aged kids.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

America is much younger but also has a lot more experience than Kate. We saw what unpowered Yelena was able to do to Kate. If Yelena wanted to Kate would be dead.

Does interdimensional travel not count as a superpower? I think I'm getting confused, which is not unusual. America is a lot younger than Kate, but she has abilities that Kate doesn't. And from a thematic standpoint, the only reason Clint is still alive is because Yelena decided not to put a bullet or six into his head, and I would say that even her brutal training regimen could be matched evenly against his years of expertise. Had she elected to kill him, she could have.

As per the Hawkeye show, Kate began martial arts training before the Chitauri invasion, and then took up archery after her father's death when she was twelve. Even in such controlled conditions, a decade of training isn't nothing, and while her impetuous nature (and her habit of knocking public monuments down) is a drawback, it's something she could unlearn.

This is one of the few real world things that affects the movies; Kate is young and doesn't have a whole lot of practical experience with combat and tactics, etc, but the only way she can get those things is by doing stuff and involving herself in matters that might be above her current paygrade. Like Kingpin's business.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Sure if you want a movie that is just fight scenes it would work, but it is usually the scenes in between the fights that drive the plots forward. And if I see a 22 year old and a 14 year old it would seem more like a babysitter or tutor kind of relationship not equals on a team.

We are talking about a 14 year old who has spent 7 years on her own so she is far from a typical teenager. Kamala is 16 in her series. Both actresses will be older by that point which really helps to change the dynamic even if the characters are younger. 

In No Way Home, Holland’s Peter was only 17 and it didn’t feel like the much older Peter’s were his babysitter or tutor in the scenes between the action.

It doesn’t have to feel that way in the Young Avengers. An older sibling dynamic could work really well. 

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Does interdimensional travel not count as a superpower? I think I'm getting confused, which is not unusual. America is a lot younger than Kate, but she has abilities that Kate doesn't. 

Huh? I didn’t say America was unpowered. Her power and experience having to survive on her own puts her on a more equal playing field with the much older and much better trained Kate. 

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

And from a thematic standpoint, the only reason Clint is still alive is because Yelena decided not to put a bullet or six into his head, and I would say that even her brutal training regimen could be matched evenly against his years of expertise. Had she elected to kill him, she could have.

 

Yes but I was referring to how Kate performed up close in hand to hand combat. She just doesn’t have the real world experience to go up against big threats or a power to protect herself. If Yelena, who has no powers, could easily out maneuver and fling Kate off a building she’s not ready to go up against an Avengers level threat.

Technically, nearly all the characters could be killed by a sniper but that’s a different conversation. 

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

As per the Hawkeye show, Kate began martial arts training before the Chitauri invasion, and then took up archery after her father's death when she was twelve. Even in such controlled conditions, a decade of training isn't nothing, and while her impetuous nature (and her habit of knocking public monuments down) is a drawback, it's something she could unlearn.

This is one of the few real world things that affects the movies; Kate is young and doesn't have a whole lot of practical experience with combat and tactics, etc, but the only way she can get those things is by doing stuff and involving herself in matters that might be above hercurrent paygrade. Like Kingpin's business.

This is point I was making. Kate needs real world experience and more training to go along with her exceptional and hard earned skill. The Young Avengers is a good place to gain that experience. Unlike Shuri who has already gone through multiple battles and Shang-Chi who was trained for most of his childhood to be a killer. 

[arc]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

On a side note though Peter's powers seem to be kind of downplayed in the MCU. That whole proportional strength of a spider thing has to put him among the strongest humans we have seen (at least ones that don't turn green). It has to make him stronger physically than Cap right?

They skipped the origin story (whew) but since so much of the lore of the MCU was originally from the Ultimate Universe, it's not unreasonable to think Peter got a modified super soldier serum (filtered through a spider), as per the UU. But yes, thanks to having to adapt the classic "lift a building off me" moment, he's probably stronger than Cap.

This Cap is superhuman, as with the UU's Cap, and decidedly above the MU's "peak human" Cap. I absolutely do not believe a 'peak human' could hold a helicopter down, but MCU Cap did. And all those super soldier serum guys (plus Blank Panther) can run as fast as cars on highways.

As far as pure physical strength, my total guess at the tiers would be:

• Hulk
• Thor, Captain Marvel (powered from an Infinity Stone*), Thanos
• other gamma superhumans, probably the big guy from Thanos' crew
• anyone in the Hulkbuster armor
• Drax is probably around here? The movies have actually done very little about how strong or not he is. The strong guy from the Eternals probably goes here too. Vision (made from a whole lot of vibranium, which has to count for something). Ultron (same reason).
• anyone in regular Stark armor
• Spidey (and probably Namor)
• Cap and every super soldier serum type, the Black Panthers, every Talokan, probably Chitauri, Kree, and Skrulls here too.

No idea where to put non-Thor Asgardians.

[Bill1978]

On 2/27/2023 at 5:09 AM, Dani said:

It needs to be taken with a heavy does of salt but there is a rumor that the Agatha show will introduce an older version of the twins (or at least Billy) and Teddy

Honestly, this would be the only reason I would tune into the Agatha show. I'm one of the minorities who really wasn't enthralled by Agatha on WandaVision or thought her theme song was the second coming of [insert your favourite composer of showtunes]. I had no plans to check out the show BUT if they age up the twins I would probably tune in as it means they actually do have a plan for the YA.

I still think it would make more sense to introduce Teddy via stories linked to Captain Marvel OR Secret Invasion, then via Agatha.

[tv echo]

Avengers 5 Writer Teases Florence Pugh’s Role
By Richard Nebens   March 1, 2023
https://thedirect.com/article/avengers-5-florence-pugh-role

Quote

Speaking on the Phase Zero podcast, Avengers: The Kang Dynasty writer Jeff Loveness addressed characters that he's excited to write into the MCU sequel.
*  *  *
“I can’t say specifically. I think I’d get in trouble. I gotta get better at talking to the Internet. But just, characters that we like, I mean, I think we’re excited for the actors more than even the characters right now. Because, we have this really good crop of performers. We got Florence Pugh, and Jonathan Majors, and Letitia Wright. We’ve got such a deep bench of really good actors. Everyone’s gonna get their chance to shine. I can’t say who. I can’t say when they will shine. But I think we’ve got a deep bench and it’s fun to finally put everybody into the game.”

Florence Pugh was told she wouldn't be cast in indie movies after signing on for Marvel
By Jane Crowther   March 2, 2023
https://www.gamesradar.com/florence-pugh-marvel-indie-movies-good-person/ 

Quote

"When I first signed onto Marvel, lots of people from the indie-film world were all telling me that I was never going to go back to small movies again, and it always kind of wound me up," she explains to Total Film. "Because I think there’s beauty in all types of those films. There’s beauty in the massive, epic storylines like Dune, like Marvel, like even Oppenheimer that I did. They’re amazing, mega movies. And then there’s also beauty in all these little ones that not everyone is going to see, but are going to affect the right person at the right time. I’ve never, ever only thought that I was going to just do one type of movie. I’ve always known that I want to dabble in all areas." 

She adds: "It’s also good for my brain to dabble in all areas. I would love to direct. I know how important it is to have a good dialogue with your director. I know how crucial it is. And I just feel like you can’t just throw yourself at it, and hope that the spaghetti sticks. I need to learn a bit more, and understand why things go where [they do], and really watch all these people that I have been watching. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by tv echo

[Bruinsfan]

I've seen  Chris Evans, Scarlett Johansson, and Mark Ruffalo in relatively small indies since their careers blew up with the Marvel movies. Hell, RDJ made his own indie about his relationship with his father. And though Hemsworth has only been in studio films, he's worked with Darren Arnofsky on a docu-series.

[tv echo]

From Emerald City Comic Con over this past weekend...

Mark Ruffalo Talks She-Hulk, 13 Going on 30, DC, and Marvel | Spotlight Panel BEST MOMENTS
Popverse   Mar 5, 2023

Quote

Popverse's Veronica Valencia joins Mark Ruffalo for a 1-hour conversation, discussing roles in movies and series such as Avengers: Endgame, She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, and 13 Going on 30. Mark also reveals his perspective on the Thor: Ragnarok leak, funniest moment while filming a Marvel movie, and shares advice for the future of DC movies. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by tv echo

[arc]

(I moved this convo from the Quantummania thread)

On 3/5/2023 at 5:56 PM, rmontro said:

I also feel that the MCU have sold out their core comic book fans, and that hurts them. 

I can't overemphasize how few "core comic book fans" there are. One of the absolute biggest selling comics of 2021 was King Spawn, at 497K copies. If those people bought 497K issues 12 times a year (they don't; sales for comics usually drop after the first issue), at $6 an issue (most issues of King Spawn are $3), it would have pulled in $36M for the year.

Avengers Endgame's worldwide box office was $2.7 billion. The American box office for the absolute worst performing MCU movie was $134M.

Alternatively: the first issue of the 2008 Guardians of the Galaxy comics that formed the foundation for the movie franchise -- that comic sold less than 40K copies for its first issue. It was cancelled after 25 issues, as it had fallen to 24K sales by then. If it had actually sold 40K issues each time at $3 a pop, consumers would have spent $3M in aggregate for the entire run. GOTG the movie did a $94M opening weekend, domestic. The American cumulative box office for that movie was $328M, and then tack on many many millions more from worldwide box office.

If 40K fans bought $15 tickets 25 times, that would have only been $15M. If instead 40K core fans hated the movie and stayed away, it would have meant next to nothing to the movie's box office.

The core comics audience is a lot smaller than the MCU audience.

Now, the overall comics market was an estimated $2B in North America alone in 2021 but most of that isn't American superhero comics. The book channel is $1.165B, comic stores are $705M, digital download is $170M, and the rest is $35M. And as far as graphic novels go, superheroes were only 16% of the pie in 2021. Manga, kids both did way better than superhero graphic novels and the author-driven kind took 15% and threatens to surpass superheroes as soon as 2022 or 2023.

===

Separately, the MCU's Iron Man doesn't actually hew that closely to the comics. The backstory details are close enough, but the defining characteristic of Tony Stark in the comics never used to be sarcastic and jokey. The MCU's version is essentially Peter Parker. Tony Stark in the comics (pre-2008, anyways) wasn't that guy!! Who cares! People love the RDJ version!

[Raja]

46 minutes ago, arc said:

The core comics audience is a lot smaller than the MCU audience.

However how much does that core fan group control the reviews we see? The constant drumbeat that everything since the Infinity Saga is either just okay or outright  bad is added to the "its not cinema" crowd. After a decade on topas many fans age out the worry of the next generation following is now being manifested.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, arc said:

Alternatively: the first issue of the 2008 Guardians of the Galaxy comics that formed the foundation for the movie franchise -- that comic sold less than 40K copies for its first issue. It was cancelled after 25 issues, as it had fallen to 24K sales by then.

I imagine too that 40k copies doesn't mean anything close to 40k buyers. Since you would absolutely have people buying multiple copies, either because of variant covers or because they buy one to read and one that gets sealed with the hopes that it will be the down payment on a house in 20 years. If those 40 thousand copies were bought by more than 30 thousand people that would surprise me. I am not sure if Marvel still does this but back when I was reading comics, for the second issue of every comic they always made two different covers just to try and reduce the sales dropoff between issue 1 and 2.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Raja said:

However how much does that core fan group control the reviews we see? 

I feel like it’s much less than we would expect. With so many MCU projects it’s the “get woke, go broke” crowd that overtakes the reviews and many of them demonstrate time and time again that they know nothing about the comics. I can’t tell you how many people I saw spouting off about comic accuracy with She-Hulk claiming they were ripping off Deadpool with the fourth wall breaking. Or people saying that Matt wasn’t comic accurate in the show just because he was different than the Netflix show. The same people who loudly shout there shouldn’t be politics in Marvel. People who claim to be core comic fans to give there outrage legitimacy. 

Based on what I’ve seen on social media it is a specific subset of core comic fans who feel left behind and those that don’t fit the image are often dismissed and belittled. I see a good number of women of social media who are huge comic fans who often have a very different opinions than what is usually classified as a comic fan. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 hours ago, arc said:

I can't overemphasize how few "core comic book fans" there are.

I would add that we're getting into this weird area now that the current phase is underway, where it's

"They should do stuff from the comics!"

*does stuff from the comics*

"WTF is this shit?!?!"

The Facebook group I belong to is generally loaded with complaints, and while it is a shitposting group that relies on memes rather than just discussion posts, they're complaining but.....they're still here. Either because they want an audience or because it's become the thing the cool kids are doing or maybe they don't really think it's that bad, but the cool kids are doing it.

[rmontro]

11 hours ago, arc said:

The core comics audience is a lot smaller than the MCU audience.

Well, obviously.  Current comic book sales are in the toilet, for a variety of reasons.  But although there are few people reading comics, there are a lot more people who remember reading comics when they were growing up.  Or maybe they remember seeing a Spider-Man cartoon or a Hulk tv show, and has maybe read a few comic books too.  These are people who get a charge out of seeing some of their childhood heroes come to life.  How many people watching an X-Men movie had absolutely no exposure to them previously?

For me, I have intensely fond memories of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's run in the '60s, probably the most creative and revolutionary period in comics.  And even after that, there is such a rich wealth of stories and characterizations that are available to the MCU, it would be inane not to take advantage of it.

It's not just that real comic fans drive the reviews, I believe their excitement and enthusiasm for the product spreads organically, maybe through word of mouth, maybe through in theater reactions.  And their disenfranchisement spreads similarly.  If a comic book movie has a buzz, it's usually put there by the core fans.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, rmontro said:

It's not just that real comic fans drive the reviews, I believe their excitement and enthusiasm for the product spreads organically, maybe through word of mouth, maybe through in theater reactions.  And their disenfranchisement spreads similarly.  If a comic book movie has a buzz, it's usually put there by the core fans.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a “real comic fan” or a “core fan”? I feel like it is one of the phrases that mean something completely different to different people. 

[rmontro]

51 minutes ago, Dani said:

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a “real comic fan” or a “core fan”? I feel like it is one of the phrases that mean something completely different to different people. 

For my purposes, I guess it would be someone who holds a fondness in their hearts for these characters, and have at least some prior knowledge of them and their stories.

[tv echo]

Disney+ released a new documentary series from Marvel Studios, titled MPower, in tandem with March 8's International Women's Day. This series was executive produced by Zoë Saldaña. Here's the trailer and poster...

MPower | Disney+
Marvel Entertainment   Mar 8, 2023

 
 

[swanpride]

I think the issue the MCU currently has is more that they are so busy to set up stuff which is supposed to happen later that they forget to finish the story they are currently telling. Like, I would have loved to see an exploration of the grief of a king dying TRICE but all this basically vanished under all the world building they did for later. I would have loved Doctor Strange grabbling with the decision he made, or Wanda grieving over the family she lost, but it was so much more important to shove in as many cameos as possible instead of focussing on the story at hand. Basically the MCU is currently making all the mistakes which caused the DCEU to fail so badly. All the "is it cinema" or "it is too woke" nonsense is just distracting from the actual issue. (and for the record, I don't care if it is comic accurate or not, frankly some of the best stories they offered weren't all that close to the comics anyway). 

[Morrigan2575]

Not sure if it's OK to discuss here. I'm really happy that Jon B is returning as Punisher/Frank Castle. I am worried with what D+ will do to Frank Castle. I'm very sad that it appears that Deborah Ann Woll is not coming back as Karen, I loved her on Daredevil and Punisher 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Morrigan2575

[Tenshinhan]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

FFS, does Disney have to have some sort of political message in everything that they release?  It's pretty damn tiring, if you ask me.

It's International Women's Day.  Say what you will about Disney's motives, but taking advantage of your properties in service of promoting human progress is a positive.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Tenshinhan

[Raja]

42 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not sure if it's OK to discuss here. I'm really happy that Jon B is returning as Punisher/Frank Castle. I am worried with what D+ will do to Frank Castle. I'm very sad that it appears that Deborah Ann Woll is not coming back as Karen, I loved her on Daredevil and Punisher 

I think that the platonic Frank and Karen relationships brought more heat than any couple since the MCU began. While keeping the Netflix level of blood splatter would be impossible for Disney the anti hero shooting to kill as opposed to a pair of archers shooting trick arrows while an owl kills with comedic effect should be possible 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

I think that the platonic Frank and Karen relationships brought more heat than any couple since the MCU began. While keeping the Netflix level of blood splatter would be impossible for Disney the anti hero shooting to kill as opposed to a pair of archers shooting trick arrows while an owl kills with comedic effect should be possible 

If that was platonic, those 2 getting together would set the world on fire...serious chemistry between the actors

[Makai]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

FFS, does Disney have to have some sort of political message in everything that they release?  It's pretty damn tiring, if you ask me.

I don’t get how empowering women is political. As a women I find it a nice change from us being constantly shoved to the side. 

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not sure if it's OK to discuss here. I'm really happy that Jon B is returning as Punisher/Frank Castle. I am worried with what D+ will do to Frank Castle. I'm very sad that it appears that Deborah Ann Woll is not coming back as Karen, I loved her on Daredevil and Punisher 

I’m sure this is an unpopular opinion but I’m perfectly fine with Deborah Ann Woll not being included or being recast. 

[Tenshinhan]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

 But Marvel never tried to stick political messaging into EVERY comic book they put out.  

I'm curious as to which Marvel films or series you think have contained political messaging in them.  Many of Marvel's comic book series are inherently political, so it's natural for their adaptations to be political as well.

35 minutes ago, Makai said:

I don’t get how empowering women is political. As a women I find it a nice change from us being constantly shoved to the side. 

Empowering women is political in the broader sociological sense of the term, not necessarily having anything to do with government or political parties.  I agree with you that it is a positive.

[Makai]

3 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Look, I have no problem with women, but the "MPower Women" slogan just sounds like pandering.  How are you being shoved to the side?

Women have been severely underrepresented in media in general and in the MCU specifically. Things like Black Widow only getting her own movie after a decade and after her death despite the demand. The former CEO of Marvel not wanting to make female led superhero movies because he believe the toys wouldn’t sell. Women being used as plot devices to fuel the stories of the men in their lives and a rarely given in real agency in the story. It taking 11 years and 21 movies to finally get a female led MCU movie. Then when it finally happens and it’s a massive success the constant effort by many online to belittle, demean or flat out deny that success. 

[Tenshinhan]

22 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Look, I have no problem with women, but the "MPower Women" slogan just sounds like pandering.

Women's empowerment is a universal concept that all people can understand and appreciate, not just one particular group.

23 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Modern Marvel is just as political as Disney is, or more so.  Stan Lee was political at times, but never out of proportion and it always served the story.

I wasn't talking about just modern comics, but all of them dating back to Stan Lee.  Many of them were always inherently political, such as Black Panther, X-Men, Captain America, etc.

I don't see how anything "political" within the MCU hasn't served the story.

[Morrigan2575]

13 hours ago, Makai said:

I’m sure this is an unpopular opinion but I’m perfectly fine with Deborah Ann Woll not being included or being recast. 

I have no idea if it's popular or unpopular.  I hated Karen in early S1 Daredevil but, she really grew on me and, by the end of S1 I loved her.  I really enjoyed the Frank/Karen relationship/scenes in Daredevil S2. 

To be honest, The Punisher/Frank was my favorite part of Daredevil S2 (which might be unpopular). The actors have mad chemistry and, the characters work really well together IMO.

So yeah, I'm a little bummed that we're getting Netflix Daredevil,  Punisher and Frisk added to the MCU/D+ but, not Karen/Woll.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Morrigan2575

[Athena]

Posts have been removed for politics violation and derailing the thread with back and forth on what is or is not politics. Please be mindful that you can talk about hot button issues as long as it relates to the movies and doesn't derail the topic. Move along. Thank you.

[tv echo]

Disney Being “Very Careful” With ‘Star Wars’ Movie Development, CEO Bob Iger Says; Marvel Brand Not “Inherently Off,” But “Do You Need A Third Or Fourth” Sequel For Every Character?
By Dade Hayes   March 9, 2023
https://deadline.com/2023/03/disney-star-wars-marvel-ceo-bob-iger-1235283774/ 

Quote

Disney CEO Bob Iger says the company still is being “very careful” with developing Star Wars feature films in the wake of Solo‘s soft box office, while Marvel is also getting a rethink in terms of how many sequels characters get.
*  *  *
With Marvel, he said, “there are 7,000 characters, there are a lot more stories to tell. What we have to look at at Marvel is not necessarily the volume of Marvel stories we’re telling but how many times we go back to the well on certain characters. Sequels typically work well for us. Do you need a third and a fourth, for instance, or is it time to turn to other characters?”
*  *  *
“There’s nothing in any way inherently off in terms of the Marvel brand,” Iger stressed. “I think we just have to look at what characters and stories we’re mining. If you look at the trajectory of Marvel in the next five years, there will be a lot of newness. We’re going to turn back to the Avengers franchise with a whole new set of Avengers, for example.”

[tv echo]

Elizabeth Olsen Wants Redemption & Humor For Scarlet Witch In The MCU
BY TATIANA HULLENDER     PUBLISHED 2 DAYS AGO
https://screenrant.com/mcu-scarlet-witch-elizabeth-olsen-wants-redemption/

Quote

While promoting her new HBO Max series Love & Death at SXSW, Olsen shared her take on Wanda Maximoff's current place in the MCU. Having previously teased that Scarlet Witch will be back in Agatha: Coven of Chaos, the question remains what version of Wanda will next appear, and in what direction the Marvel creatives will take her storyline. Here's what Olsen herself had to say:

We can do anything with her now! I feel like we've done so much. Now, we can really have fun; I feel like there's a lot more humor to be had with her. She's often the emotion of a story, and I'm curious to see what we can explore. And hopefully [we can] give her some redemption.

Edited March 17, 2023 by tv echo