The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Is that stereotypically Asian?

It is. I don’t think he was supposed to be any particular real world race but his features are more eastern than western. The same way Star Trek’s Vulcans were coded as Asians based on the same characteristics.

In this case it was probably just done to distinguish him as mixed race. I don’t look at him in most comics and think “white dude” which is why fan casting for Namor was all over the place. He’s not particularly associated with any real world race.

[Guest]

Sometime I wish google didn’t exist. The comics have acknowledged that Namor’s features are Asian-like. He is white/Atlantean but he’s POC coded. 



This makes me stabby. 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Is that stereotypically Asian?

It is. I don’t think he was supposed to be any particular real world race but his features are more eastern than western.

Or more accurately, his features take from the stereotypical (racist) caricatures of Asians.

4 hours ago, Dani said:

In this case it was probably just done to distinguish him as mixed race. I don’t like at him in most comics and think “white dude” which is why fan casting for Namor was all over the place. He’s not particularly associated with any real world race.

Late to the convo, but I was going to say something similar. I'm not very familiar with the character, but from how he's been generally depicted, I get the impression he supposed to be vaguely ethnic/"exotic".

3 hours ago, Dani said:

Sometime I wish google didn’t exist.

Yikes. Thanks for taking one for the team.

[Dandesun]

15 hours ago, Dani said:

Sometime I wish google didn’t exist. 
 

Gotta love that WWII Pacific Theater propaganda. And by 'gotta love' I mean the exact opposite.

[rmontro]

22 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Namor being white isn't his primary characteristic it was just default when he was created.

I just want to point out that no one has complained about Namor not being white.   I had always thought the perfect actor to play Namor was The Rock, except he's too old now.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I just want to point out that no one has complained about Namor not being white.   I had always thought the perfect actor to play Namor was The Rock, except he's too old now.

Maybe The young Rock who was on Star Trek through Walking Tall before he started bulking up could be a Namor.

[rmontro]

45 minutes ago, Raja said:

Maybe The young Rock who was on Star Trek through Walking Tall before he started bulking up could be a Namor.

Yeah, younger Rock.  I had forgotten he was on Star Trek (Voyager).

[tv echo]

Chris Hemsworth Changed His Life After an Ominous Health Warning
ANTHONY BREZNICAN    NOVEMBER 17, 2022
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/11/chris-hemsworth-exclusive-interview-alzheimers-limitless/amp 

Quote

Is there more Thor in your future?
I don't know. I think there'd be more to say if the people want to hear me say it.

I believe Marvel promised more with the end of Love and Thunder.
Yeah, I think they always do. Look, I'm completely open to it, if there is something unique and fresh and unexpected to do with the character and the world. I've always loved the experience. I've been very thankful I've been able to do something different each time.

You're the only one of the original Avengers who got four solo movies.
Yeah, I know.

Iron Man got a conclusion. Captain America got a conclusion. Are you hoping that there'll be a conclusion for Thor?
Yeah, for sure. I feel like we'd probably have to close the book if I ever did it again, you know what I mean? I feel like it probably warrants that. I feel like it'd probably be the finale, but that's not based on anything anyone's told me or any sort of plans. You have this birth of a hero, the journey of a hero, then the death of a hero, and I don't know—am I at that stage? Who knows?

[tv echo]

Marvel Fans Showing Franchise Fatigue, While DC Fans More Likely to Prefer Single Superhero Over Universe, Says New Fandom Study
By Adam B. Vary     Nov. 17, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/marvel-dc-fandom-study-1235435282/ 

Quote

Over one-third of Marvel fans feel fatigued from the constant stream of content served in theaters and on Disney+ this year, according to a new study released on Thursday by the fan platform Fandom. But the study also shows that Marvel fans are also far more inclined to watch any Marvel project in comparison to DC fans, who in turn are more likely to consume film and TV about a specific superhero rather than the entire DC catalogue.

Those are a few of the extensive findings in the study, which drew from a survey of 5,000 entertainment and gaming fans between 13 and 54 years old, as well as what Fandom terms “proprietary insights” from its platform of over 300 million monthly users across 250,000 different wikis.
*  *  *
... According to Fandom’s study, 81% of Marvel fans would watch anything released in the franchise, while 67% of DC fans would do the same. Conversely, just 38% of Marvel fans say they’re focused on specific superheroes rather than the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe, compared to 57% of DC fans who care more about one or two superheroes rather than the full DC Universe. That could a major factor in why only 20% of DC fans say they’re fatigued by the number of releases in a year, versus 36% of Marvel fans who feel that way. Through September, Fandom reports that “The Batman” was the global site’s “largest cinematic release.” DC fans are also more 20% more likely than Marvel fans to buy products — collectables, clothes, even superhero-inspired menu items.

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

Marvel Fans Showing Franchise Fatigue, While DC Fans More Likely to Prefer Single Superhero Over Universe, Says New Fandom Study
By Adam B. Vary     Nov. 17, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/marvel-dc-fandom-study-1235435282/ 

I know no one here will agree with me, but IMO a big reason for the fatigue is that Marvel/Disney can no longer be trusted to produce faithful adaptations of their characters.  The post upthread a bit which talked about giving Thor a conclusion:  These well known characters like Iron Man and Thor shouldn't be removed from the universe, they should be a constant presence like Batman and Superman are in DC.

Those characters are recast, I see no reason why they can't do that with the MCU.  They may need a reboot the way things are gone.  As much respect as I have for Chadwick Boseman, they probably should have recast T'Challa/Black Panther.  These are classic characters that people want to see, and should be around.

[Tenshinhan]

45 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Those characters are recast, I see no reason why they can't do that with the MCU.  They may need a reboot the way things are gone. 

Those characters were recasted only when their universes were rebooted.  There's no way they would just reboot the entire MCU.  At least not for a very long time to come.

48 minutes ago, rmontro said:

These are classic characters that people want to see, and should be around.

People also want to see the actors that have portrayed those characters.  You can't just separate the two in audiences minds.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, tv echo said:

Marvel Fans Showing Franchise Fatigue, While DC Fans More Likely to Prefer Single Superhero Over Universe, Says New Fandom Study
By Adam B. Vary     Nov. 17, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/marvel-dc-fandom-study-1235435282/ 

Considering the sheer number of MCU projects releasing in a year, I’m honestly surprised it’s not higher than a third. 36% expressing franchise fatigue after 48 movies and shows in 14 years is actually really good. 

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Those characters are recast, I see no reason why they can't do that with the MCU.

I actually think recasting would speed up franchise fatigue. You would have to find the right actor which is a tall order for most of these characters. That style of continuous storytelling like in soap operas or comics tends to get old for general audiences. 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Tenshinhan said:

People also want to see the actors that have portrayed those characters.  You can't just separate the two in audiences minds.

Batman?  Superman?  James Bond?  I'm sure we'd all love for Christopher Reeves to still be Superman, but that just isn't practical.  We even have numerous versions of Spider-Man in the MCU, counting the multiverse.  Big characters get recast.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

Batman?  Superman?  James Bond?  I'm sure we'd all love for Christopher Reeves to still be Superman, but that just isn't practical.  We even have numerous versions of Spider-Man in the MCU, counting the multiverse.  Big characters get recast.

However the MCU is different in that multiple stars are interacting.

That said T'Challa has been recast and now when they get to the soapy relationship with a X-Man, Storm an age appropriate actor can be put in for that story the book fans want on screen 

[swanpride]

The biggest selling point of the MCU is that it is a continuing story (unlike James Bond which at least used to have mostly stand along movies with the same character, and only some small ties within movies played by the same actor). It is a universe, not just a franchise. You could say that it is multiple franchises which make up one big universe. 

And no, the fans aren't really into recasting, especially not for the big roles. 

[tv echo]

Disney Shocker! Bob Iger Back As CEO, Bob Chapek Out
By Dominic Patten, Dade Hayes    November 20, 2022
https://deadline.com/2022/11/disney-bob-iger-returns-ceo-bob-chapek-out-1235178223/ 

Quote

Another misstep, which many in the industry believed would never have happened on his predecessor’s watch, was publicly clashing with Scarlett Johansson over the release of Black Widow. The Marvel movie had gone out through the Premier Access window (a Chapek innovation during the pandemic that hasn’t been used in more than a year), meaning it was available for an extra charge on Disney+ at the same time it hit theaters. The actress sued over breach of contract, saying the method of release had cost her tens of millions in back-end payments. Disney hit back hard, calling Johansson’s suit “especially sad and distressing in its callous disregard for the horrific and prolonged global effects of the Covid-19 pandemic.”

While the suit was settled a few weeks later, the fight — and particularly the sharp-clawed statement aimed at an A-list star — became a significant talking point in the company’s overall dealings with talent. Chapek also abruptly dismissed TV chief Peter Rice with minimal explanation, a move that similarly unsettled the creative community.

Kevin Feige Rejected Captain America 3’s Original Plot
By Russ Milheim    November 19, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/kevin-feige-captain-america-3-madbomb-pitch 

Quote

In an interview with The Town podcast, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever producer Nate Moore talked about the development of the third Captain America film and how it was almost something very different from Civil War.
*  *  *
“… So we were developing Captain America 3 and we were [doing] really good. Winter Soldier worked, people were back in, they’re interested, and we were talking about a movie, and we knew we had to resolve, obviously, the Winter Soldier storyline. We wanted Cap and Bucky to ultimately reunite. And the plot that we… And we knew we wanted to use Zemo. What a great character. You know, he’s obviously a classic Cap villain. And we were building the movie around a MacGuffin around the Madbomb, which, the Madbomb goes off and causes normal people to start fighting each other. It’s honestly a little similar to what I think they did in Kingsman.”
*  *  *
“And it was cool, and it was grounded, and it was political, and whatever, and [Feige] was like, ‘That’s not a big enough idea, guys.’ And we’re like, ‘Let us write a draft, we’ll prove it to you.’ [Feige:] ‘Okay, prove it to me.’ As we’re getting done with it… he pulls me into his office and he said, ‘You know, I think we should try to do Civil War.’ And I was like, ‘Kevin, we don’t have half the stuff that’s in Civil War. We don’t have the New Warriors, we don’t have… Here’s all the reasons why we can’t do it.’ And he’s like, ‘Go home, read it, let’s talk about it.’ So I went home that night, read it… I re-read it, ’cause I had read it before and I was like, ‘Yeah, look we don’t have the Negative Zone prison…’ There were so many things that we didn’t have.”
*  *  *
“And he’s like, ‘Okay, okay.’ And so I went to the writer’s room with Markus, McFeely, and Joe, and Anthony, and Kevin peeked his head in and he goes, ‘So, stop with the Madbomb, you guys are doing Civil War.’ And I was like, ‘Ah, fuck.’ And Joe was like, ‘Yes! Civil War? Awesome!’ And then we had to figure out how to do Civil War. But he was like, ’There wasn’t a big enough idea that would get audiences excited and we did it. Look, It was scary and when you’re throwing out a whole thing and starting new, it’s always a bit weird, but he was right. He was right. We were still able to pay off the Bucky storyline. We still figured out how to use Zemo. But the central conceit of the movie was something that audiences would gravitate towards and they did.”

Edited November 21, 2022 by tv echo

[Spartan Girl]

11 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Kevin Feige Rejected Captain America 3’s Original Plot
By Russ Milheim    November 19, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/kevin-feige-captain-america-3-madbomb-pitch 

Dammit K.E.V.I.N.

[Morrigan2575]

Woah, Disney must be in trouble for the Board to fire CEO. 

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Dammit K.E.V.I.N.

Yep. I was so mad when I saw Civil War I wouldn't watch it again for a few years. Instead of making the Cap and Bucky story they had been telling in two previous movies this one became all about Tony and his pain. Which is fine and I don't begrudge him. It just needed to be a movie called Civil War. I will forever feel cheated out of the powerful story of Steve and Bucky and the friendship of a century. Because it's not like they bothered with it after this movie.

BOO K.E.V.I.N.

[Spartan Girl]

Not only that @festivus but I will forever be bitter that that Kevin squandered the chance to give us the Steve, Sam, Bucky, Sharon, and Natasha squad we should have had.

[festivus]

3 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Not only that @festivus but I will forever be bitter that that Kevin squandered the chance to give us the Steve, Sam, Bucky, Sharon, and Natasha squad we should have had.

That would have been nice. My favorite thing was always Steve's friendships. I didn't think Steve and Sharon worked but sometimes things from the comics don't. It would have been nice to see that acknowledged and for them to move on as friends.

It's not that I even have a problem with Steve still pining for Peggy. He clearly felt a powerful connection with her. I would just have loved to see a Steve that would look at her life and want to emulate it since he respected her so much. She moved on, she formed something she thought would do good.

[rmontro]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:29 AM, swanpride said:

And no, the fans aren't really into recasting, especially not for the big roles. 

Mark Ruffalo has done all right.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Mark Ruffalo has done all right.

That was after only one subpar Hulk appearance in the MCU. They probably could have recast anyone out RDJ before Avengers without it being an issue. It would be a much bigger deal now. 

[rmontro]

44 minutes ago, Dani said:

That was after only one subpar Hulk appearance in the MCU. They probably could have recast anyone out RDJ before Avengers without it being an issue. It would be a much bigger deal now. 

I remember when they made Galactus a gas cloud in Fantastic Four:  Rise of the Silver Surfer.  Everyone was saying they had to do it because moviegoers would never accept a giant purple alien "robot" onscreen.  Since then we've had Celestials and Watchers in the MCU and no one has complained one bit.  They even accept Aztec Sub-Mariners, a talking duck, She-Hulk breaking the fourth wall, and the Spectacular Spider-Ham.  I think they would accept recastings.   Maybe the time is a little early now, but at some point these characters will have to be rebooted.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

I remember when they made Galactus a gas cloud in Fantastic Four:  Rise of the Silver Surfer.  Everyone was saying they had to do it because moviegoers would never accept a giant purple alien "robot" onscreen.  Since then we've had Celestials and Watchers in the MCU and no one has complained one bit.  They even accept Aztec Sub-Mariners, a talking duck, She-Hulk breaking the fourth wall, and the Spectacular Spider-Ham.  I think they would accept recastings. 

I don’t think those examples are comparable to recasting. I am curious what you envision if they were to recast. It’s a really broad term and I’m not sure I am picturing the same thing you are picturing. 

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Maybe the time is a little early now, but at some point these characters will have to be rebooted.

For example, to me this is a completely different conversation. 

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, festivus said:

Yep. I was so mad when I saw Civil War I wouldn't watch it again for a few years. Instead of making the Cap and Bucky story they had been telling in two previous movies this one became all about Tony and his pain. Which is fine and I don't begrudge him. It just needed to be a movie called Civil War. I will forever feel cheated out of the powerful story of Steve and Bucky and the friendship of a century. Because it's not like they bothered with it after this movie.

BOO K.E.V.I.N.

Civil War is a weird movie. I mean the whole idea of the civil War is a pretty dumb concept and if I was reading comics at the time I think it would have annoyed me a lot. But even with the dumbness of it, it is actually executed surprisingly well. There are great action scenes and the pacing is really good. And even in the big airport fight they bounce between the characters really well. 

As for doing something else for CW it would be interesting to see how it would have played out. Because if it was just a Cap and friends movie then by my count you would have to make some major changes to the plots of: Ant-Man and the Wasp, Black Panther, Spiderman Homecoming, Infinity War and Black Widow. And I wonder if those movies would have been as good as they were with the changes in their stories.

[BetterButter]

Marvel’s ‘Blade’ Finds New Director With ‘Lovecraft Country’ Helmer Yann Demange

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

I don’t think those examples are comparable to recasting. I am curious what you envision if they were to recast. It’s a really broad term and I’m not sure I am picturing the same thing you are picturing. 

The point of those other examples was that I think that if they had made the choice to recast, people would have accepted it.  Because a lot of other big franchises get recast.  How much they would accept it would probably have mostly to do how good a job they did at recasting.  

By recasting, I mean like let's say Chris Hemsworth decides he doesn't want to play Thor anymore.  The MCU should have a Thor, so I would recast him with another actor, rather than kill the character off.  I feel the same about Tony Stark, Steve Rodgers, and T'Challa.  Those characters should be in the MCU, and if the original actors don't want to play them anymore, they should have been recast.  It's a little late to do anything about those cases though, since they've gone in different directions.  I know some people would object to recasting Chadwick Boseman under the circumstances, and I sympathize with that point of view, but ultimately I think it would have been better to recast him.  

[Morrigan2575]

8 hours ago, BetterButter said:

Marvel’s ‘Blade’ Finds New Director With ‘Lovecraft Country’ Helmer Yann Demange

Oh, that's interesting.  I enjoyed Lovecraft Country

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, rmontro said:

The point of those other examples was that I think that if they had made the choice to recast, people would have accepted it.  Because a lot of other big franchises get recast.  How much they would accept it would probably have mostly to do how good a job they did at recasting.  

The other thing about general recasting is that I don't think movie fans would accept the whole sliding scale timeline bullshit (where everything in the comics that has happened since 1961 has actually taken place over like 10 years) the same way comics fans do. They would expect some sort of passage of time (and the character growth that goes with it), at least close to real time. But if 10 years after he first appears they recast Peter Parker and he is still in high school I think people would be annoyed. And if after 10 years Tony Stark is a different actor but the same vaguely middle aged cocky playboy I am not sure people would care about him.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Guest]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

The point of those other examples was that I think that if they had made the choice to recast, people would have accepted it.  Because a lot of other big franchises get recast.  How much they would accept it would probably have mostly to do how good a job they did at recasting. 

I understood your point. I don’t think they are comparable because they are expanding the mythos which is easier to follow and less jarring to audiences. People haven’t just accepted all of those things though and, in my opinion, it has contributed to fan fatigue as the MCU gets to complex. 
 

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

By recasting, I mean like let's say Chris Hemsworth decides he doesn't want to play Thor anymore.  The MCU should have a Thor, so I would recast him with another actor, rather than kill the character off.  I feel the same about Tony Stark, Steve Rodgers, and T'Challa.  Those characters should be in the MCU, and if the original actors don't want to play them anymore, they should have been recast.  It's a little late to do anything about those cases though, since they've gone in different directions.

Thanks for explaining. I think they could recast in some instances and have it work but it would be a very tricky proposition. I don’t think it works for there to always be a Thor, or any other character. It is one of those things in comics that doesn’t translate into the real world very well without it being a reboot of the whole franchise. Stories that never really end tend to get boring because their are no stakes. 

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The other thing about general recasting is that I don't think movie fans would accept the whole sliding scale timeline bullshit (where everything in the comics that has happened since 1961 has actually taken place over like 10 years) the same way comics fans do. They would expect some sort of passage of time (and the character growth that goes with it), at least close to real time. But if 10 years after he first appears they recast Peter Parker and he is still in high school I think people would be annoyed. And if after 10 years Tony Stark is a different actor but the same vaguely middle aged cocky playboy I am not sure people would care about him.

I agree. Every character, show and movie franchise has diminishing returns the longer it continues in any iteration for this reason. 

[festivus]

I've thought about the recasting thing since they have this multiverse thing going on now. Technically they could if they really felt they wanted to tell another CA story or Iron Man or whatnot. My feeling is they have so much going on, why bother. There are so many other characters and stories coming that they don't need to. However, in say 10 years or so, I think it could work.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Dani said:

 Stories that never really end tend to get boring because their are no stakes.

Kind of? Because....that's the comics too. Hell, Loki's dead in the movie-verse and he's still bopping around doing things, and that's without any significant redemption arc. It's presented as if I should feel sorry for him because Sylvie hurt his feelings, as if he didn't spend most of his life actively fucking over everyone who even tried to love him, and yet he's still here without truly doing anything to improve himself or his behavior.

[SeanC]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:45 PM, rmontro said:

I know no one here will agree with me, but IMO a big reason for the fatigue is that Marvel/Disney can no longer be trusted to produce faithful adaptations of their characters.  The post upthread a bit which talked about giving Thor a conclusion:  These well known characters like Iron Man and Thor shouldn't be removed from the universe, they should be a constant presence like Batman and Superman are in DC.

Those characters are recast, I see no reason why they can't do that with the MCU.  They may need a reboot the way things are gone.  As much respect as I have for Chadwick Boseman, they probably should have recast T'Challa/Black Panther.  These are classic characters that people want to see, and should be around.

The vast majority of audiences had no relationship whatsoever to any of the MCU characters prior to the debut of their film incarnations. Iron Man is not a classic character that people all over the world want to see, Iron Man-as-played-by-Robert Downey Jr. is.

The Guardians of the Galaxy, who are C-list characters at best in the comics and had no wider pop cultural profile at all, got turned into a hugely successful franchise. The MCU at this point is big enough to create new stars, it doesn't need to continually recast a handful of extant heroes.

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

They would expect some sort of passage of time (and the character growth that goes with it), at least close to real time. But if 10 years after he first appears they recast Peter Parker and he is still in high school I think people would be annoyed. 

On the other hand, in a 10 year period there might be only three Spider-Man movies.  So do we really believe that during that 10 year period, he only has three adventures worth telling?  I don't.

[Raja]

48 minutes ago, rmontro said:

On the other hand, in a 10 year period there might be only three Spider-Man movies.  So do we really believe that during that 10 year period, he only has three adventures worth telling?  I don't.

Well for non MCU Spiderman it is only once in a blue moon that something being a match for Peter Parker emerges.

[rmontro]

33 minutes ago, Raja said:

Well for non MCU Spiderman it is only once in a blue moon that something being a match for Peter Parker emerges.

And all those guys are recast Spider-Men, and they all were accepted. 

[Raja]

17 minutes ago, rmontro said:

And all those guys are recast Spider-Men, and they all were accepted. 

Because they had nothing else. No where else to go to quote An Officer and a Gentleman. There were no concurrent stories sharing characters and in universe canonical storylines 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

And all those guys are recast Spider-Men, and they all were accepted. 

They were rebooted Spider-Men which is different than recasting an MCU character. Would audiences have accepted No Way Home if another actor was taking Holland’s place? Probably not. If Holland decides he is done would they accept a different actor continuing with Zendaya’s MJ? That’s a much tougher sell. It still would be easier with a character that is well known separate from any actor like Spider-Man, Batman, Superman or Hulk. But for mainstream audiences RDJ is Tony Stark and Evans is Cap.

Why take the risk when they can introduce Iron Heart, make a movie centered of Rhodey or Sam’s Captain America? 

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Kind of? Because....that's the comics too.

Yeah and I think that is part of the reason comics are somewhat limited in their appeal or while many comic engagement can wane with time. 

[kiddo82]

The difference between a Bond movie and an MCU movie to me is that a Bond movie isn't so much a story about James as it is about whatever the threat of the moment is.  Plus, with the exception of the Craig ones, most of them are all very self contained.  You don't really need to know what happened before and aren't concerned about what happens next.  You can plug and play different actors and different takes on Bond because it's never really about him.  (again, with the exception the Craig Bonds.)  But MCU movies are much more character driven, IMO, and we want the characters to succeed and we feel bad when they fail because we like them.  And because we become so invested in the characters themselves I think the audience does crave a sense of finality when all is said and done.  Yes, you could just cast Tom Cruise as our main timeline Tony Stark and continue with the story but to what end?  We've gone through the ride with Tony and it's done (for now.)  Leave well enough alone.  If you go on that ride too many times you're going to get sick.  I think End Game was so satisfying for so many because it was a conclusion, and a damn good one at that.  And it had stakes.  And consequences.  If you wanted to bring Tony Stark back could you bring in a Tony from another timeline and go from there?  Sure.  And down the line could you reboot the entire Iron Man franchise?  Sure again.  But I don't know how many times an audience will just accept a new Tony showing up in the main timeline without diminishing returns.  Or lets say Thor, for the sake of argument, to use a character who is still alive.  The MCU has so much fodder it literally might never end, but certain arcs have to or you'll lose your audience.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

If Holland decides he is done would they accept a different actor continuing with Zendaya’s MJ?

Don't know about Zendaya, but if Tom Holland no longer wants to be Spider-Man, I do think they would recast him.  Marvel has to have a Spider-Man in the MCU, he's their most popular character.  Alternatively, I guess they could go with Miles Morales.  But bottom line, if the MCU wanted to recast someone, I still say people would accept it, as long as the choice of actor is good.

[swanpride]

Small reminder that Garfield wasn't accepted as Spiderman. Raimi fans were complaining about anything related to him and only when his version of the character made an appearance in No Way Home, there was an overall (and long overdue) recognition how well he actually played the role.

[kiddo82]

And I think reboots are a completely different discussion than recasting.  The former is typically refreshing a story from the beginning while the latter is continuing it indefinitely.  No one takes the Nolan Batman trilogy as a continuation of the Burton/Schumacher ones.  Nicholson's Joker and Ledger's Joker aren't the same guy played by a different actor. These are completely different entities that happen to be derived from the same source material.

And look, if Disney did recast Thor tomorrow I do agree that the fans wouldn't revolt overnight.  But I think eventually you do have to turn that page on these stories as a whole or the fans won't keep coming back.

Edited November 23, 2022 by kiddo82

[tv echo]

Quentin Tarantino Says Marvel Actors Aren’t Movie Stars: ‘Captain America Is the Star,’ Not Chris Evans
By Zack Sharf   November 22, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/quentin-tarantino-marvel-killed-movie-star-1235439798/ 

Quote

“Part of the Marvel-ization of Hollywood is…you have all these actors who have become famous playing these characters,” Tarantino said. “But they’re not movie stars. Right? Captain America is the star. Or Thor is the star. I mean, I’m not the first person to say that. I think that’s been said a zillion times…but it’s like, you know, it’s these franchise characters that become a star.”

For Tarantino, Captain America is the star and not Chris Evans. “I’m not even putting them down frankly, to tell you the truth,” the director said earlier about movie stars no longer existing in bulk. “But that is one of the — the legacy of the Marvel-ization of Hollywood movies.”

Tarantino also clarified in the interview that he does not “hate” Marvel movies but dislikes them for being the only product Hollywood is interested in making these days.

“Look, I used to collect Marvel comics like crazy when I was a kid,” Tarantino said. “There’s an aspect that if these movies were coming out when I was in my twenties, I would totally be fucking happy and totally love them. I mean, they wouldn’t be the only movies being made. They would be those movies amongst other movies. But, you know, I’m almost 60, so yeah. No, I’m not quite as excited about them.”

“My only axe to grind against them is they’re the only things that seem to be made,” he added. “And they’re the only things that seem to generate any kind of excitement amongst a fan base or even for the studio making them. That’s what they’re excited about. And so it’s just the fact that they are the entire representation of this era of movies right now. There’s not really much room for anything else. That’s my problem.”

Don’t expect Tarantino to ever get involved in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The director said earlier this month he will not helm a Marvel movie because “you have to be a hired hand to do those things. I’m not a hired hand. I’m not looking for a job.”

Edited November 23, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Marvel will have a panel at CCXP22 on Dec. 1...

Google translation:

Quote

Marvel Studios will be at #CCXP22 and with a strong team! We'll have news from “Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania” and the presence of Paul Rudd, Evangeline Lilly and Jonathan Majors, as well as a panel from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 to shake the Pavilion on 1/12.

CCXP22, December 1-4, 2022 (São Paulo, Brazil)
Kevin Feige, Peyton Reed, Paul Rudd, Evangeline Lilly, Jonathan Majors, Zoe Saldana
https://www.ccxp.com.br/en/lineup 

Edited November 23, 2022 by tv echo

[rmontro]

This article explains a lot.  Marvel producer Nate Moore says that he does not want to hire writers who are Marvel fans, but rather people who are out of the culture that will look at them differently.  

It's pretty clear, and has been becoming clearer over the past few years, that Marvel is not interested in fans like myself, who grow up loving the world that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created.  They do not care about pleasing me, and the quicker I get that into my head the better, most likely.  Thing is, maybe that would be acceptable if they were making high art, but they're not, they're just turning out mediocre formula popcorn movies.

I didn't feel that way with the early MCU movies, I felt that they did care about making movies I, as a fan, liked.  Now I question whether I should continue to invest in this.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/11/21/marvel-studios-producer-considers-it-a-red-flag-if-prospective-writers-are-fans-of-original-comics-prefers-to-hire-someone-whos-out-of-the-culture/

[Ailianna]

I think he's only saying he doesn't want people so slavishly committed to their own idea of how the comic character should be, and what the plots should be, that they can't recognize that different times and different media may not fit those old comic tropes. To people who just want their comic books live action, any variation is heresy. To people who are interested in the general idea of the characters and stories but willing to see if they can be improved, it's a benefit, not a problem.

[rmontro]

22 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

it's a benefit, not a problem.

Not to me.  I'm not an unreasonable person, I don't expect a 1:1 representation of the comics on film.  But I expect a reasonable adaptation.  In the early phases of the MCU that's what I felt I was getting, but it's very clear to me at least that they care less and less about the real comics fans as time goes on.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

This article explains a lot.  Marvel producer Nate Moore says that he does not want to hire writers who are Marvel fans, but rather people who are out of the culture that will look at them differently.  

It's pretty clear, and has been becoming clearer over the past few years, that Marvel is not interested in fans like myself, who grow up loving the world that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created.  They do not care about pleasing me, and the quicker I get that into my head the better, most likely.  Thing is, maybe that would be acceptable if they were making high art, but they're not, they're just turning out mediocre formula popcorn movies.

I didn't feel that way with the early MCU movies, I felt that they did care about making movies I, as a fan, liked.  Now I question whether I should continue to invest in this.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/11/21/marvel-studios-producer-considers-it-a-red-flag-if-prospective-writers-are-fans-of-original-comics-prefers-to-hire-someone-whos-out-of-the-culture/

I wish I could say I was surprised.

If you don’t have respect for the original source material, you shouldn’t be doing these movies at all.