The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Tenshinhan]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That's the central theme of the entire franchise.

Maybe but I'm not so sure it's really necessary to focus on that particular theme when doing an X-Men movie.  Fox beat that horse into the ground.  I think it would be a good idea to shift focus a bit and explore other aspects of the X-world instead.

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, arc said:

He's a third stringer, but then again, so were GOTG before they got MCU movies. I couldn't have told you a single thing about GOTG before the movies and I'm a medium level MU fan.

I hope they go super meta with Wonder Man.

The way I'd do  Wonder Man would be to introduce him as an existing Hollywood celebrity - pepper him in with a cameo or two, have him being interviewed on TV in the background of an MCU show, establish him a little bit. Then reveal he has powers and explore how someone who is already rich and famous deals with that. Not like Tony, who actively chose to be a hero and adapted his life to it, but an actor who wants to carry on his old life - going to glitzy parties, being fawned over by everyone, getting headline roles in movies - and does not want to be a superhero.

Let him be a resentful arsehole because the idea of having to use powers to help people is cramping his style. Go full on comedic anti-hero with it. Is it authentic to Wonder Man from the comics? Not really, but the character sucks in the comics.

2 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

Maybe but I'm not so sure it's really necessary to focus on that particular theme when doing an X-Men movie.  Fox beat that horse into the ground.  I think it would be a good idea to shift focus a bit and explore other aspects of the X-world instead.

I think the X-Men being an allegory for civil rights struggles is still incredibly pertinent, thanks to anti-LGBTQ issues that are still hot button topics and the source of so much anger. A lot of the same things repeat (as they so often do in life) with disagreements over who can go in which bathrooms, who is welcome in which businesses, but the stuff about mutants being "freaks" and "against god" is actually more relevant now than it ever has been before. That shit writes itself, and there are several prominent people who could just be copied verbatim to create despicable villains.

However, the in-universe justification for it is weak, when mutants will be introduced to a world where superheroes are well-established and looked up to with reverence. Why would anyone care how Cyclops is able to fire beams from his eyes when they don't care how Captain Marvel can fire blasts from her hands?

From a mutant-centric point of view, the X-Men would be better off if the MCU had them in a different part of the multiverse, where no one else has powers and where mutants emerging can be terrifying and the source of societal anger. Only, that wouldn't allow for any cross-overs or team-ups, so we know that won't happen.

[Tenshinhan]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I think the X-Men being an allegory for civil rights struggles is still incredibly pertinent, thanks to anti-LGBTQ issues that are still hot button topics and the source of so much anger. That shit writes itself, and there are several prominent people who could just be copied verbatim to create despicable villains.

I personally think it's the weakest and least interesting aspect of the X-Mythos.  I agree that it writes itself, and that's because it's so damn lazy and uninspired.  The X-Men are about much much more than some narrow allegory on social injustice and prejudice.

Whether it's pertinent or not is besides the point.  It's been done to death, so let's see the MCU broaden the scope instead.

[arc]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

However, the in-universe justification for it is weak, when mutants will be introduced to a world where superheroes are well-established and looked up to with reverence. Why would anyone care how Cyclops is able to fire beams from his eyes when they don't care how Captain Marvel can fire blasts from her hands?

That's true of the comics too and they just kinda handwave it.

[Hiyo]

Quote

I personally think it's the weakest and least interesting aspect of the X-Mythos.

I have to disagree on that. When they haven't focused on that, it hasn't really worked for long.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Tenshinhan said:

I personally think it's the weakest and least interesting aspect of the X-Mythos.  I agree that it writes itself, and that's because it's so damn lazy and uninspired.  The X-Men are about much much more than some narrow allegory on social injustice and prejudice.

Whether it's pertinent or not is besides the point.  It's been done to death, so let's see the MCU broaden the scope instead.

So what would you focus on then? Because the other aspects of the X-Men are well-trodden ground too.

They're heroes who save the world. They're a dysfunctional family that fights and fucks too much. They're a paramilitary organisation of child soldiers created by a mad professor. Removing the prejudice against them just makes them another group of superheroes, at which point you have to ask... why reboot them? The MCU already has a ton of superheroes who fight evil.

Whether they're an allegory for racism, antisemitism, sexism, LGBTQ issues, generational division, religious or political persecution, the foundation of mutantkind in the Marvel universe is that they are 'other.' That's what separates them from the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.

The MCU doesn't need to rehash God Loves, Man Kills again, but it does need to have an awareness that mutants are persecuted (even if, as I said, it doesn't make much in-universe sense) because that's what makes them interesting. They're heroes even though people hate them, and they spend as much time defending humanity against evil mutants as they do defending them against other threats, whether they're human or alien or even weirder.

Even as a straight, white, male kid, I found the X-Men far cooler than the rest of Marvel and DC's offerings because they were a distinct group that had a single source for their powers - a source none of them asked for and a lot didn't want. A source that made them outcasts and outsiders who had to hide what they were, and who would choose their path in life largely thanks to that outsider status - would they try to help humanity anyway or would they follow the path of least resistance and use their powers for personal gain?

[Tenshinhan]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Whether they're an allegory for racism, antisemitism, sexism, LGBTQ issues, generational division, religious or political persecution, the foundation of mutantkind in the Marvel universe is that they are 'other.' That's what separates them from the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.

The MCU doesn't need to rehash God Loves, Man Kills again, but it does need to have an awareness that mutants are persecuted (even if, as I said, it doesn't make much in-universe sense) because that's what makes them interesting.

Nah, I don't think this is the case at all.  The persecution component just isn't required in my view.  It's not what makes them who they are.

It's the mutation factor that makes them what they are and what separates them from the other heroes.  That's what makes them interesting, the fact that they are born with their abilities and that it's part of their identities.  The allegorical aspect is just one way to approach the subject matter, but it's not the only way.

You can have mutants versus other mutants, mutants that want to conquer humanity, and so on.  As long as you establish the genetic circumstances that ties them all together, then anything is possible.  Once you get past that, then there's no need for persecution stories.  Let the plots and characters take it from there.  They are a team or group of teams that fight evil.  That's ultimately all that's needed to really drive the stories forward.  No need for any allegory.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The way I'd do  Wonder Man would be to introduce him as an existing Hollywood celebrity - pepper him in with a cameo or two, have him being interviewed on TV in the background of an MCU show, establish him a little bit. Then reveal he has powers and explore how someone who is already rich and famous deals with that

I would kind of love it I think if the Wonder Man show was just about a movie star with super powers dealing with Hollywood crap, and didn't actually have a villain. And was just spent a bunch of time mocking showbusiness stuff. 

Because as much as I enjoyed Ms. Marvel I think it would have been so much better if it was just her learning about her powers and her family history and figuring out family and friends, without any bad guy fights.

[Danny Franks]

24 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Because as much as I enjoyed Ms. Marvel I think it would have been so much better if it was just her learning about her powers and her family history and figuring out family and friends, without any bad guy fights.

I'd definitely have been down with that. I lost a lot of interest in the show as soon as they made it clear that the Clandestines would be the big bad. They were just... lame.

The MCU's slavish devotion to their formula of having a big bad and the third act being a big, CGI-laden fight is pretty tired, at this point.

Ms. Marvel would have been so much more fun if the main conflicts were her learning about her powers, with Bruno and Nakia's help and trying to keep her parents from finding out about them. Maybe have her fight some minor supervillain at the end, to prove she now knows what she's doing. But equally, having her all suited up and hearing a police report of "a man in some kind of armour with telescopic legs* breaking into a bank downtown" then the show ends as she and Bruno smile at each other and she says she's ready, would have been great.

* Because Stilt-Man still hasn't been in the MCU, and that's a crime.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Danny Franks

[Hiyo]

Quote

It's the mutation factor that makes them what they are and what separates them from the other heroes.  That's what makes them interesting, the fact that they are born with their abilities and that it's part of their identities.

They only have that because Stan Lee was too lazy to come up with new origins for them, pretty much shrugged his shoulders, and said "Eh, they were born with their powers".

Quote

The allegorical aspect is just one way to approach the subject matter, but it's not the only way.

Without allegory, the X-men tend to be a generic group of superheroes, which decades and decades of publication history have shown.

Quote

You can have mutants versus other mutants, mutants that want to conquer humanity, and so on. 

Yes and the mutants who want to conquer humanity is what helps lead to them being seen as a persecuted minority by the general public...

Quote

They are a team or group of teams that fight evil. 

Basically, the Avengers, then, but with easier and simpler origin stories.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

However, the in-universe justification for it is weak, when mutants will be introduced to a world where superheroes are well-established and looked up to with reverence. Why would anyone care how Cyclops is able to fire beams from his eyes when they don't care how Captain Marvel can fire blasts from her hands?

That is very true but if anything, to me, that’s an argument to diversify them and make it relevant. Take advantage of the fact that the MCU has been predominantly white and male and focus directly on real world biases. We know from Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel and Falcon and the Winter Soldier that racism, sexism classism are still issues in the MCU so play into that more. Let be less allegory and more straight up examples of real life discrimination. I would be surprised if they would ever go fully in that direction but there are a lot of layers to discrimination that could explore. Things like colorism, micro aggressions, implicit biases, otherism and perpetual foreigner syndrome. 

Like you said it is very pertinent and I would rather they stick with the universe we know and expand rather than having them be from a different part of the multiverse. I find the idea of introducing discrimination through less tolerant universes or worlds (like Star Trek and The Orville) puts enough separation that it dilutes or even undermines the point.  

[Kel Varnsen]

25 minutes ago, Dani said:

Let be less allegory and more straight up examples of real life discrimination. I would be surprised if they would ever go fully in that direction but there are a lot of layers to discrimination that could explore. Things like colorism, micro aggressions, implicit biases, otherism and perpetual foreigner syndrome. 

That kind of thing would be interesting. I am also thinking how people in the MCU mostly love the avengers but how do they treat people with powers who just live their lives and don't try to help people. Like if your neighbor has super strength but didn't fight Thanos and isn't protecting your neighborhood, how would he be treated?

I also saw a great comment somewhere about how the X-Men are supposed to be a metaphor for discrimination, but Charles Xavier is an east coast old money rich white guy, and his powers are totally invisible to the average person. That's why I thought the potential for casting Giancarlo Esposito could be cool, since you could have a character who has experienced actual discrimination not just because he was a mutant.

[Raja]

31 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That kind of thing would be interesting. I am also thinking how people in the MCU mostly love the avengers but how do they treat people with powers who just live their lives and don't try to help people. Like if your neighbor has super strength but didn't fight Thanos and isn't protecting your neighborhood, how would he be treated?

To cross franchises and bring in real life the hidden mutant would be like the Superman who took Kevin Costner's fatherly advice to remain hidden and let people die rather emerge to help as compared to  Peter Parker who thinks he is ultimately responsible because he didn't do anything with his gift.

And when we, the MCU 616 public, finds out that a mutant had his powers since birth but didn't publicly do anything before their origin movie then they would be looked at and cursed like the real life we do to the police officer(s) that did not charge an active shooter in a school in a couple of high profile incidents.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Raja

[Morrigan2575]

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

However, the in-universe justification for it is weak, when mutants will be introduced to a world where superheroes are well-established and looked up to with reverence. Why would anyone care how Cyclops is able to fire beams from his eyes when they don't care how Captain Marvel can fire blasts from her hands?

I always thought it was because Mutants were an evolutionary change/leap/aberration from Humanity...basically humans afraid of change they see within themselves.  Captain America having super Soldier Serum or Captain Marvel getting her powers from a Alien/Space gem or Fantastic Four from a Cosmic Wave is easy to accept because it doesn't mean Humanity is moving these were outside forces.

Of course the one that doesn't line up would be Inhumans...unless the fall into the "alien" camp?

[Raja]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Of course the one that doesn't line up would be Inhumans...unless the fall into the "alien" camp?

Inhumans became the corporate ownership rights stand in for mutants so on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D and the Inhumans miniseries vigilantes hunted them, as well as Hydra for other reasons. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Inhumans became the corporate ownership rights stand in for mutants so on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D and the Inhumans miniseries vigilantes hunted them, as well as Hydra for other reasons. 

What Inhumans miniseries? Never heard of it.  I'm sure you're mistaken there was no miniseries where Ramsay Bolton ran around Earth being an asshole 😆🤪

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

That kind of thing would be interesting. I am also thinking how people in the MCU mostly love the avengers but how do they treat people with powers who just live their lives and don't try to help people. Like if your neighbor has super strength but didn't fight Thanos and isn't protecting your neighborhood, how would he be treated?

Do most of the heroes actually help that much with the smaller stuff?  Sure, they wouldn't just keep walking if someone was getting mugged, but aside from Spidey they aren't particularly active crime fighters.  That especially applies to folks like Thor and Captain Marvel, who do most of their hero stuff off-world.

[Raja]

15 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What Inhumans miniseries? Never heard of it.  I'm sure you're mistaken there was no miniseries where Ramsay Bolton ran around Earth being an asshole 😆🤪

There you go, if memory serves he remained on the moon. Come to think on it they didn't use the vigilantes from AoS but Inhumans we're known just without prejudice unless their gift caused a problem 

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Do most of the heroes actually help that much with the smaller stuff?  Sure, they wouldn't just keep walking if someone was getting mugged, but aside from Spidey they aren't particularly active crime fighters.  That especially applies to folks like Thor and Captain Marvel, who do most of their hero stuff off-world.

It's TV and movies there is stuff requiring action happening in front of everyone every 43 minutes or so.

[starri]

10 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

Nah, I don't think this is the case at all.  The persecution component just isn't required in my view.  It's not what makes them who they are.

"One group had dedicated its wondrous abilities to protect mankind, even those who hate and fear them. Known to the world at large as outlaws, they are the X-Men"

That's Chris Claremont, writing the back cover of the Dark Phoenix Saga.

What I want from an MCU X-Men movie:

-Don't make it another movie about Wolverine, although that might be a lost cause.

-For the love of God, don't do a third take on the Dark Phoenix Saga, at least not without giving us adequate time to get to know Jean first.

[Tenshinhan]

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Without allegory, the X-men tend to be a generic group of superheroes, which decades and decades of publication history have shown.

There's nothing generic about the X-Men.  It's their large number of unique gifts and variety of characters that make them interesting and stand out, not some allegory.

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yes and the mutants who want to conquer humanity is what helps lead to them being seen as a persecuted minority by the general public...

But the story doesn't have to go in that direction if the writers don't want it to.  The battles between mutants could remain hidden.  Or the public could recognize that there are good mutants that stand against the evil ones, etc.  The persecution route isn't mandatory or absolute.

46 minutes ago, starri said:

"One group had dedicated its wondrous abilities to protect mankind, even those who hate and fear them. Known to the world at large as outlaws, they are the X-Men"

That's Chris Claremont, writing the back cover of the Dark Phoenix Saga.

And? That's just the standard description of the X-Men that they regurgitate and attach to every product or release.  That doesn't mean it's what makes them who they are, or that it's essential for an X-Men story.

54 minutes ago, starri said:

What I want from an MCU X-Men movie:

-Don't make it another movie about Wolverine, although that might be a lost cause.

-For the love of God, don't do a third take on the Dark Phoenix Saga, at least not without giving us adequate time to get to know Jean first.

I think these things are obvious and that the MCU is smart enough to know better.

7 hours ago, Dani said:

Let be less allegory and more straight up examples of real life discrimination. I would be surprised if they would ever go fully in that direction but there are a lot of layers to discrimination that could explore. Things like colorism, micro aggressions, implicit biases, otherism and perpetual foreigner syndrome. 

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I also saw a great comment somewhere about how the X-Men are supposed to be a metaphor for discrimination, but Charles Xavier is an east coast old money rich white guy, and his powers are totally invisible to the average person. That's why I thought the potential for casting Giancarlo Esposito could be cool, since you could have a character who has experienced actual discrimination not just because he was a mutant.

I agree with these ideas.  Maybe make all of the main X-characters be minorities and address the issues more directly rather than just simple allegory.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, starri said:

Don't make it another movie about Wolverine, although that might be a lost cause.

Please. There are so many great characters. That being said I love me some Jubilee and Wolverine is a big part of her story...so I'd forgive them if I got Jubilee/Wolverine in Madripoor or the Savage Land.

1 hour ago, starri said:

For the love of God, don't do a third take on the Dark Phoenix Saga, at least not without giving us adequate time to get to know Jean first.

I kind of feel like we got this with Scarlett Witch so I'm OK just totally skipping the story at this point.

I have a weird fascination with Betsy/Kwannon, I'd actually love a story where we got British Betsy and later Kwannon/Betsy

[benteen]

The X-Men protecting a world that fears them is core to their story although it doesn't make sense in a world of superheroes. I think the fear in the MCU would come from evolving into something that people will fear. That's what they need to build on.

I would like to see more X-Men stories that don't focus on mutant hatred. I love X-Men in space stories and you could introduce the Starjammers. Whatever direction they go, please do not have EVERY story involve Magneto. He is a great villain but you can have an X-Men movie or show that doesn't come down to Xavier vs Magento. I would point out that the two most famous X-Men stories either don't involve Magneto like the Dark Phoenix Saga (which has nothing to do with mutant prejudice either) or have very little to do with him him like  Days of Future Past.

I think Giancarlo Esposito would make a great Xavier or Magneto.

Edited August 9, 2022 by benteen

[Kel Varnsen]

6 minutes ago, benteen said:

The X-Men protecting a world that fears them is core to their story although it doesn't make sense in a world of superheroes. I think the gear in the MCU would come from evolving into something that people will fear. That's what they need to build on.

The easy way around that is to focus on Mutants look different than regular humans. Like in the MCU it is probably easy to be a fan of Cap or Wanda when they look like Chris Evans or Elizabeth Olsen. So instead get me some mutants with extra arms or a tail or bones outside of their body. That could be interesting instead of the usual Storm, Jean and Cyclops they usually use.

[Tenshinhan]

I agree about more X-Men in space, for sure.

Just leave Magneto out of these films.  And maybe less Xavier.  There are far more characters and dynamics to explore.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The easy way around that is to focus on Mutants look different than regular humans. Like in the MCU it is probably easy to be a fan of Cap or Wanda when they look like Chris Evans or Elizabeth Olsen. So instead get me some mutants with extra arms or a tail or bones outside of their body. That could be interesting instead of the usual Storm, Jean and Cyclops they usually use.

However the call is for legacy characters and most X-Men look good. Giving someone else just to have mutants would draw the same kind of complaints as we get from those who want T'Challa 2, and Wakanda 2 isn't good enough for them 

[Morrigan2575]

Can we get Onslaught? I really liked that one snd it has such a dark origin.  

[Tenshinhan]

37 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Can we get Onslaught? I really liked that one snd it has such a dark origin.  

If it leads to a Heroes Reborn scenario, then I'm all for it.

[kiddo82]

Re:  The X-Men.  I think you could play up the fact the collective we lurve us a good underdog story.  Steve Rodgers, Peter Park, etc.  Scrappy, undersized, unassuming white dudes who weren't born particularly special but got where they got with a little bit of luck and of lot of heart and gumption.   We love them because, in theory, that could be any one of us.  We begrudge those who we perceive to be born as special because it was "easy" for them.  I could readily see a storyline where the public sees the real heroes as the ones who "earned" it while the mutants are shunned/resented. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The easy way around that is to focus on Mutants look different than regular humans.

Personally I’d rather they didn’t go that direction because it beings it back to allegory which isn’t at all progressive. I don’t think that the problem is that the persecuted aspect is old but that they haven’t sufficiently updated it as norms have changed. At the time stand-ins for real world issues made it more palpable but now they can go more at these issues head on and it is a really easy to do.

Giancarlo Esposito as Xavier is a great idea particularly since Patrick Stewart has already nailed the character. I’m sure they could find someone else that fits the type and could do an amazing job but what’s the point. Cast an actress who doesn’t pass the paper bag test as Storm. Genderbend Jean or Scott but keep the romance. Make one of the characters trans. There is so much they can do with the discrimination angle if they are willing to go all in on it and if there is ever a property to do it this is the one. I don’t expect them to do that but I would be thrilled is did even a fraction of it.

 I think playing the discrimination more subtly and keeping some characters canonical so that all the X-Men aren’t treated the same would result in something really interesting. 

[swanpride]

Frankly, I don't think that the X-Men actually work all that well as allegory for any oppression...because in the real world, the fears of people are entirely unfounded AND the oppressed have next to no power at all. But the X-Men actually have power, and they can do real damage with them. If the MCU decides to introduce them (and I really hope that if they do, they do it in another reality), I would prefer it if they do it more along the line of what Agents of Shield did, where it was actually acknowledged that there are true concerns with people suddenly developing such powers and that the fears aren't necessarily completely unfounded (without villifying Inhumans), instead of doing this really awkward allegory. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

It's their large number of unique gifts and variety of characters that make them interesting and stand out, not some allegory.

Without the allegory, they're just another super team. Their gifts are no more unique than any other suerheroes, but they way they received their gift is what makes them unique...and leads to prejudice.

Quote

But the story doesn't have to go in that direction if the writers don't want it to.  The battles between mutants could remain hidden.

Nah, the Eternals have that shtick covered.

Quote

Or the public could recognize that there are good mutants that stand against the evil ones, etc.  The persecution route isn't mandatory or absolute.

Yes, here have been people who have seen that throughout the comics run. Just as in real life, they are called allies. Why, this allegory almost writes itself...

Quote

or that it's essential for an X-Men story.

They need that allegory, otherwise they are just redundant.

Quote

Maybe make all of the main X-characters be minorities and address the issues more directly rather than just simple allegory.

Then there is no point in making the mutants.

Quote

Can we get Onslaught?

That's definitely a story I'm not in a rush to see.

[Morrigan2575]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

That's definitely a story I'm not in a rush to see.

You didn't like it? 

[Hiyo]

Beyond the idea of it, no. 

[angora]

Regardless of whether the MCU SHOULD keep the oppression angle for the X-Men, I don’t think it’d be difficult to show public fear/mistrust of mutants when other people with powers are more accepted. If mutants suddenly start to emerge in the MCU—maybe it’s been a latent gene in most people until now, with rare exceptions like Xavier/Magneto, but some sort of fallout from the Blip has been increasingly activating their powers/triggering metamorphoses—people would freak. It’s all well and good for superheroes to do their thing, but now, their children could suddenly develop powers or sprout wings/fur without warning. There’d be clamors for the science community to do something to stop the mutations, arguments about whether mutants should be allowed in public places, pressure from parents to hide powers so “the neighbors” don’t find out. And then, when Xavier comes along to gather students, it’s one of “THEIR kind” trying to take our kids away and “indoctrinate” them into their “unnatural” mutant society.

At the same time, nothing precludes them from also dealing with real-life discrimination on top of that: racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, you name it. Think of all the bullshit intersectionality Storm would have to deal with in the U.S.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, angora said:

Regardless of whether the MCU SHOULD keep the oppression angle for the X-Men, I don’t think it’d be difficult to show public fear/mistrust of mutants when other people with powers are more accepted. If mutants suddenly start to emerge in the MCU—maybe it’s been a latent gene in most people until now, with rare exceptions like Xavier/Magneto, but some sort of fallout from the Blip has been increasingly activating their powers/triggering metamorphoses—people would freak. It’s all well and good for superheroes to do their thing, but now, their children could suddenly develop powers or sprout wings/fur without warning. There’d be clamors for the science community to do something to stop the mutations, arguments about whether mutants should be allowed in public places, pressure from parents to hide powers so “the neighbors” don’t find out. And then, when Xavier comes along to gather students, it’s one of “THEIR kind” trying to take our kids away and “indoctrinate” them into their “unnatural” mutant society.

At the same time, nothing precludes them from also dealing with real-life discrimination on top of that: racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, you name it. Think of all the bullshit intersectionality Storm would have to deal with in the U.S.

Watching the finale of Ms. Marvel again, I can see how they could be setting up the bare bones of that prejudice. The female Damage Control agent is a zealot who is obsessed with the idea that "the wrong people" are getting superpowers and she was close to causing serious harm before she was overruled.

If extremists like her gain control of law enforcement agencies, and the likes of J Jonah Jameson are pushing anti-hero agendas on their platforms, then it wouldn't take much for a certain percentage of the population to start hating all heroes, never mind mutants in particular.

It's also not hard to see that anti-hero message zeroing in on 'your kids could be superpowered and you don't even know it! What aren't we being told?' Which is where the mutant stuff could come in.

Some heroes are okay because 'they're our heroes. We know them.' But the mutants that are springing up are an unknown, an 'invasion' and 'corruption' of decent humans.

Is it all very on the nose for our real world political and social discourse? Yes. But that's the X-Men.

As already said: the story does not have to be about mutant prejudice, but that prejudice absolutely should exist in the world and colour the interactions mutants have with humans and with each other.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Watching the finale of Ms. Marvel again, I can see how they could be setting up the bare bones of that prejudice. The female Damage Control agent is a zealot who is obsessed with the idea that "the wrong people" are getting superpowers and she was close to causing serious harm before she was overruled.

If extremists like her gain control of law enforcement agencies, and the likes of J Jonah Jameson are pushing anti-hero agendas on their platforms, then it wouldn't take much for a certain percentage of the population to start hating all heroes, never mind mutants in particular.

It's also not hard to see that anti-hero message zeroing in on 'your kids could be superpowered and you don't even know it! What aren't we being told?' Which is where the mutant stuff could come in.

Some heroes are okay because 'they're our heroes. We know them.' But the mutants that are springing up are an unknown, an 'invasion' and 'corruption' of decent humans.

Is it all very on the nose for our real world political and social discourse? Yes. But that's the X-Men.

I’ve thought the same thing with Ms. Marvel and No Way Home beginning to lay the groundwork. Ms. Marvel also shows how combining fear of powers and racism can be used together. Kamala wasn’t hunted by Damage Control because she was Muslim but it still played a big role in how everything played out. Combining allegorical and non-allegorical discrimination is very much in keeping with the X-Men considering Magneto’s background as a holocaust survivor. 

1 hour ago, angora said:

Regardless of whether the MCU SHOULD keep the oppression angle for the X-Men, I don’t think it’d be difficult to show public fear/mistrust of mutants when other people with powers are more accepted. If mutants suddenly start to emerge in the MCU—maybe it’s been a latent gene in most people until now, with rare exceptions like Xavier/Magneto, but some sort of fallout from the Blip has been increasingly activating their powers/triggering metamorphoses—people would freak. It’s all well and good for superheroes to do their thing, but now, their children could suddenly develop powers or sprout wings/fur without warning. There’d be clamors for the science community to do something to stop the mutations, arguments about whether mutants should be allowed in public places, pressure from parents to hide powers so “the neighbors” don’t find out. And then, when Xavier comes along to gather students, it’s one of “THEIR kind” trying to take our kids away and “indoctrinate” them into their “unnatural” mutant society.

At the same time, nothing precludes them from also dealing with real-life discrimination on top of that: racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, you name it. Think of all the bullshit intersectionality Storm would have to deal with in the U.S.

All of this is a really good idea. It’s similar to what was done of AoS with Inhumans which did a nice job of setting up why they would be feared even in a world with superheroes.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

We don' need no stinkin' context:

[swanpride]

The thing is we don't need an allegory of oppression when the MCU can actually address real oppression. 

[Tenshinhan]

Why not both at the same time?  With competent writing it should be possible to tackle real world oppression while also addressing fictional mutant oppression.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

Why not both at the same time?  With competent writing it should be possible to tackle real world oppression while also addressing fictional mutant oppression.

Haven't they, though? Even beyond mutants, the case can be made for Wakanda being isolated for so long because they didn't want to get involved with world affairs, even at the expense of the people Killmonger claimed he wanted to help. The only difference between Magneto and Killmonger is that their fanaticism is directed towards different groups - the former's towards a world that fears and hates mutants, and the latter's wanting to lift up people who have been downtrodden, but he goes way too far with it.

[swanpride]

Exactly. As I pointed out above, the Mutants are actually not a particularly good allegory for oppressed people because unlike oppressed people they are pretty powerful. They are basically the wizards to the worlds muggles, and the power balance is overall pretty clear. At the end of the day, we always end up having Mutants fight against other Mutants about the question if it is a good idea to kill the Muggles because they decide it is better to kill off or control the wizards before they decide to kill the Muggles (or accidentally kill them off in one of their wars). But Black Panther actually managed to address exactly the same themes the Mutants always address without this problem - and a way better real life tie. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

They are basically the wizards to the worlds muggles

Yeah but the wizards don't always win (they rarely do, actually).

[Raja]

42 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Yeah but the wizards don't always win (they rarely do, actually).

I guess most of those classic stories have their root before the advent of nuclear weapons, as General Ross described the Avengers/enhanced people and it was beyond the imagination that man, even a wizard, and not a god could actually take out everything.

When the Amazing Spider-Man said that for a moment after Gwen Stacy's death he stopped pulling his punches it reminds me that for story purposes folks like Thanos focus on the army of heroes and don't attack the innocent at the same time like Hitler did. The random offscreen evil mutant/Inhuman will have to be said to be doing things that cause the hatred and persecution of them all.

[swanpride]

In reality the wizards (meaning the people who have the better weapons) nearly always win. 

[Ailianna]

Numerical advantage is still a major advantage. And who is to say if laser eyes are a better weapon than HIMARS or other long range modern weapons?

[tv echo]

Saturn Awards Nominations: ‘The Batman’, ‘Nightmare Alley’, ‘Spider-Man’, ‘Better Call Saul’ Top List
By Armando Tinoco   August 12, 2022
https://deadline.com/2022/08/saturn-awards-2022-nominations-list-movies-tv-1235089636/ 

Quote

EXCLUSIVE: The Saturn Awards have unveiled nominations for their 50th anniversary edition, with organizer the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy & Horror Films saying that the ceremony to reveal winners is set for October 25 in an event that will be livestreamed on ElectricNOW.
*  *  *
Marvel Studios dominated this year’s noms in the Film and Streaming categories with movies like Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Thor: Love and Thunder, Sony’s Spider-Man: No Way Home, as well as Disney+ series like Loki, WandaVision, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, What If? and Ms. Marvel.

This July 21, 2022 Comic-Con panel included 5 MCU composers:
SDCC 2022 - 8th Musical Anatomy of a Superhero Film & TV Composer Panel
Mulderville   Aug 14, 2022

Quote

Composers Christopher Lennertz (The Boys), Natalie Holt (Batgirl, Loki), Nami Melumad (Thor: Love and Thunder), Christophe Beck (Shazam! Fury of the Gods, Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania) ,Amie Doherty ( She-Hulk: Attorney at Law) , and moderator Michael Giacchino (The Batman, Thor: Love and Thunder, Spiderman: No Way Home) discuss the challenges of creating the musical landscape of the superhero genre and explain the process through unreleased music and video clips from upcoming and recently released projects. Music has always played an important supporting character in films and TV. This is especially evident in the superhero genre, where the music clearly sets the tone that defines a character, an impending battle, or a triumphant moment. Introductions by Ray Costa (producer, Costa Communications).

Edited August 15, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Apparently Kevin Feige gave the "canon answer" on Steve Rogers' virginity to She-Hulk head writer Jessica Gao...

‘She-Hulk’ Head Writer on Reshaping the Pilot, Cutting CGI, and Steve Rogers’ Virginity
By Adam B. Vary   August 16, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/she-hulk-steve-rogers-virginity-cut-scenes-1235342096/ 

Quote

One thing that comes up in the premiere is Jennifer repeatedly grills Bruce about whether Steve Rogers is a virgin. How did you pitch that to Kevin Feige?
We just started putting it in scripts. There used to be a season-long runner where the thing that is constantly gnawing away at Jen is this question of whether or not Steve Rogers had ever had sex. You just regularly see her like googling it, talking about it. You got the sense that she was just constantly pestering people in her life, this question that was burning away at her soul. I can’t describe to you how thrilled and shocked I was that not only was Kevin on board with answering the question, that he supplied me with the canon answer.

So Kevin definitively answered this question?
Yes, that is straight from Kevin’s golden mouth.

Link to sneak peek of She-Hulk scene where Jennifer talks about Steve Rogers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8SCPBQCmjg

Also, Tatiana Maslany said that she was rejected for the role of Venom's girlfriend...

MCU Actress Is Glad She Got Rejected from Venom Movie Role
By Aeron Mer Eclarinal   August 17, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/venom-movie-mcu-actress 

Quote

Speaking as a guest on the Comedy Bang Bang podcast with Scott Aukerman, She-Hulk lead star Tatiana Maslany revealed that she almost played another Marvel character prior to her MCU role. 
*  *  *
Aukerman: "You have not been part of the MCU up 'til now. They've been trying to get you."

Maslany: “I’ve been trying to get them.”

Aukerman: "Really?"

Maslany: “They’ve rejected me multiple times.”
*  *  *
Aukerman: "For what? What did you try out for?"

Maslany: “Venom. Not for Venom, unfortunately. But for Venom’s girlfriend or whatever.”

Aukerman: "Venom's girlfriend?"

Maslany: “(laughs) Yeah.”

Aukerman: "Not even Tom Hardy-- Eddie Brock's girlfriend, just Venom's girlfriend?"

Maslany: “(laughs) Just Venom’s girlfriend. Just the symbiote’s girlfriend.”

Aukerman: "Who was [Venom] trying to date?"

Maslany: “She was cut out. (laughs)”

In 2018's Venom, Michelle Williams played the role of Anne Weying, a.k.a. She-Venom. 
*  *  *
Aukerman: "What else?"Maslany: “That one. There was something else too that did not work out for me. I’m quite happy with this one.”

Edited August 17, 2022 by tv echo

[Danny Franks]

^ I'm listening to that episode of CBB at the moment. Tatiana Maslany is awesome, as she always is when she appears on it. She spent the first few minutes recreating the noises that the Turtles make in the opening scene of The Secret of the Ooze.

I wonder if she also auditioned for Sharon Carter. I remember a lot of names being linked to that role, then being very underwhelmed with the pick.

[Spartan Girl]

20 hours ago, tv echo said:

Apparently Kevin Feige gave the "canon answer" on Steve Rogers' virginity to She-Hulk head writer Jessica Gao...

‘She-Hulk’ Head Writer on Reshaping the Pilot, Cutting CGI, and Steve Rogers’ Virginity
By Adam B. Vary   August 16, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/she-hulk-steve-rogers-virginity-cut-scenes-1235342096/ 

All I can say is had the MCU writers followed comic canon, we could have had a Steve Rogers that fucked way more, or at the very least got to have him shirtless for more than one movie.

[cambridgeguy]

Who's to say that he didn't?  As George Costanza once said, the best type of sex is fugitive sex!  I'm sure Wanda and Vision would agree.