Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[atlantaloves]

Well now I really want to know what happened to Verdon's first child, her son that she left with her parents. Who did he become, is he still alive? My God he is older than me, so he might be dead. That was shocking. 

[JeanneH]

48 minutes ago, atlantaloves said:

Well now I really want to know what happened to Verdon's first child, her son that she left with her parents. Who did he become, is he still alive? My God he is older than me, so he might be dead. That was shocking.

His IMDB page.. From the biography section I'm not sure if he's still involved in that business.

[atlantaloves]

ahhhhhh thanks it says he owns a plumbing store in California since 1998.

[TheOtherOne]

2 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

Well now I really want to know what happened to Verdon's first child, her son that she left with her parents. Who did he become, is he still alive? My God he is older than me, so he might be dead. That was shocking. 

He can be seen in this trailer for a Gwen Verdon documentary, at 1:15 and 1:50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYI2awNXn9g

Edited April 25, 2019 by TheOtherOne

[atlantaloves]

ahhhhhh thank you honey, you are the best! 

[ebk57]

Loved this episode.   A small note - it made me smile that music used in the scene in the nightclub when Gwen was watching the Jack Cole dancers was "Sing, Sing, Sing".  

[JeanneH]

It just clicked with me after watching the next episode's trailer, though just the mention of Pippin should have done it. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Ann Reinking time.

[tennisgurl]

Loved this episode, and it was great to get more of Gwen's backstory, as depressing as it was. I think, the more we see of them, I can see more of why Fosse and Verdon connected so quickly and why they were such an amazing creative team. Its basically the whole sequence from last week where they work on Whos Got the Pain, and talk about how people will be so distracted by the laughs and the dancing and the tits, that they wont even notice the super depressing lyrics, and that the person performing is in agony. Thats kind of how both of them are. They're both in so much pain so often, some self inflicted and some based on outside tragedy, but they just keep on keeping on, jazz hands and sequences. 

Watching Gwen doing that awful play is just so depressing, you really can feel like she thinks her career is drying out, and she just needs to take what she can get, even if its crap. Acting is a fickle business, even for people who are already famous and successful. her face after she gave that Angel monologue was just so heartbreaking. I get it, she is reaching that age when people are muttering about how she cant move the way she did when she was younger, but I want to be like "its ok Gwen, you have other things coming!"

I am really excited to see more about how Cabaret was made, its such a strange, great movie with so many creative choices that seem totally random and crazy on paper, but totally worked together. The opening sequence with the opening to Cabaret was really great, I admit I enjoy the quickly directorial choices they are making. It makes sense for a show based around creators who were also known for their quirky artistic choices. 

Although, my favorite scene was the whole sequence where Gwen gets called back onstage by the chanting fans, and she takes a bow. Her face is just everything, like she was reflecting on everything and thinking "I showed all of you" or maybe "no matter what else, this is what I am meant to be doing."

Edited April 25, 2019 by tennisgurl

[voiceover]

16 hours ago, AriAu said:

His face was great, but I dont get adoration out of it....he is selfish jerk who was relieved that his muse appeared to help him find his way. He knew he was at his best with her guidance/assurance/attention, but I dont think he adored her....i think he needed her and was glad she bailed him out! 

The dictionary definition of "adore" is "to love and respect [someone] deeply."  If you're not getting that from Sam Rockwell's face every time Michelle Williams walks into a room, then you're not buying much of his performance.

To adore someone does not by any means refer to pure unselfish emotion.  It's possible to adore someone who bails you out; it's possible to adore someone who guides/assures/attends to you.

It was a mutual adoration society. Genius recognizing genius; game recognizing game; overwhelming love for the other person who was so different from anyone else in their lives.

Were they also locked in --ugh, hate this word -- a codependent, mutually-assured destructive death match?  Uh, yeah.  That's never precluded love.  Nor adoration.

[TV Diva Queen]

14 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Rockwell plays Justin Hammer in Iron Man 2. He does contribute to War Machine (played by Don Cheadle) but he's not Tony Stark. But at the Expo in that movie, he does come out dancing which is fun.

He also reprises the Justin Hammer role in the Marvel Short that goes with Thor: The Dark World called 'All Hail the King' but it's a very very small role. Although memorable.

Thank you!  I’m semi new to the Marvel world, but you explained exactly what I couldn’t. 

[Popples]

If it hadn't been for that Slate article, I would have never realized that Paddy was Norbert Leo Butz. I saw his name in the titles and kept looking for him, but he's totally unrecognizable to me with that beard.

[kieyra]

10 hours ago, JeanneH said:

It just clicked with me after watching the next episode's trailer, though just the mention of Pippin should have done it. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Ann Reinking time.

Non theater person here. I know vaguely who Ann Reinking is (and that she actually appeared in All That Jazz as ... sort of a version of herself?). But when I look at the Wikipedia page for Pippin she is not mentioned at all. Can you clue me on the significance?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

34 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Non theater person here. I know vaguely who Ann Reinking is (and that she actually appeared in All That Jazz as ... sort of a version of herself?). But when I look at the Wikipedia page for Pippin she is not mentioned at all. Can you clue me on the significance?

From Ann Reinking’s Wikipedia page (spoiler tagged because it hasn’t happened on the show yet):

Spoiler

Reinking moved to New York City at age 18, and danced as a member of the corps de ballet at the Radio City Music Hall, performed in the ensemble of the second national tour of Fiddler on the Roof, and at the age of 19 made her Broadway debut in the musical Cabaret. She was a chorus dancer in Coco (1969), Wild and Wonderful (1971), and Pippin (1972). During Pippin she came to the attention of the show's director and choreographer Bob Fosse. Reinking became Fosse's protégée and romantic partner.

[JeanneH]

6 hours ago, kieyra said:

Non theater person here. I know vaguely who Ann Reinking is (and that she actually appeared in All That Jazz as ... sort of a version of herself?). But when I look at the Wikipedia page for Pippin she is not mentioned at all. Can you clue me on the significance?

In addition to what ElectricBoogaloo wrote (above), yes, Ann Reinking was pretty much playing herself in ATJ. In the teaser for the next episode I believe that character is the woman with dark hair they focused on a couple times during rehersal scenes (while Gwen and Bob were heatedly discussing something).

[JeanneH]

Anyone want to see realNicole dance in a pseudo-Broadway style? She was in A Chorus Line: The Movie as Kristine, half of the married couple auditioning for the show. (long blonde hair, gray outfit)

Edited April 25, 2019 by JeanneH

[voiceover]

7 hours ago, JeanneH said:

In the teaser for the next episode I believe [Ann Reinking] is the woman with dark hair they focused on a couple times during rehersal scenes (while Gwen and Bob were heatedly discussing something).

Yes.  IIRC, it was a Pippin audition (rehearsal?).

The actress playing Ann is Andie MacDowell's daughter, Margaret Qualley. 

[LilWharveyGal]

The outfits and surreal quality of Willkommen really put me in mind of this: 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I am really excited to see more about how Cabaret was made, its such a strange, great movie with so many creative choices that seem totally random and crazy on paper, but totally worked together. 

I don't think we're getting much of that, because this isn't "The Making of Cabaret." While that's arguably Fosse's best known work, the show seems more interested in focusing on the relationship between Fosse and Verdon. Everything we see having to do with either one of their jobs is from the perspective of how their relationship affects it and vice versa.

[TimWil]

Does Norbert Leo Butz sound exactly like Jason Alexander in everything he does? Because he really sounds like him as Paddy Chayevsky. He also seems to be wearing at least three inch lifts. God, I wish HBO would air the pilot he did  (was it called The Miraculous Year?) where he played a gay, meth-addicted Broadway songwriter whose sculptor dad was played by Frank Langella. And it was directed by Kathryn Bigelow the same year she won her Oscar.

[Loandbehold]

I'm interested in seeing how Ann Reinking is portrayed, given that the Fosse-Verdon daughter is involved in the production.

Spoiler

Ann was a much bigger part of Fosse's life than the German translator.

[TimWil]

I want to know if Ann Reinking really said to him “Do you have to be so generous with your  c**k?” like her character said in All That Jazz.

[txhorns79]

On 4/25/2019 at 1:44 AM, tennisgurl said:

I get it, she is reaching that age when people are muttering about how she cant move the way she did when she was younger, but I want to be like "its ok Gwen, you have other things coming!"

True, what woman hasn't dreamed of starring in Cocoon and Cocoon: The Return as the love interest of an 80-something Don Ameche! 

On 4/26/2019 at 9:48 AM, LilWharveyGal said:

The outfits and surreal quality of Willkommen really put me in mind of this: 

Glad to see I wasn't alone.  I wondered if the shows had people in common on the crew because it did feel like they were following a similar theme. 

I did want to know more about Gwen and her son.  The show makes it seem like she left him with her parents and never looked back, but I have to think there was more to it than that.

[atlantaloves]

Yeah, please I want to know who actually raised her son. God, that is so horrible. Driven, yes. 

[Quilt Fairy]

This situation is almost exactly like what is happening in the Amazon show

Spoiler

The Marvelous Mrs Maisel.

  In order to succeed in show business, you need to focus only on yourself. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside S1: Gwen Verdon

 

S1.E3 clips:

The favor:

Standing ovation:

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E4: Glory

Quote

Bob's career takes some huge leaps, while Gwen struggles to overcome personal and professional setbacks. Written by Tracey Scott Wilson; Directed by Jessica Yu.

Promo:

Original air date: 4/30/19

[alexvillage]

On 4/10/2019 at 11:13 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This is Gwen dancing with Debbie Allen on Fame in 1982:

I loved that show! In a bit of personal trivia, I saw Debbie's Sweet Charity on Broadway in 1986. 

All That Jazz is one of my all time favorite dance movies. I actually had classes a few years later with one of the credited dancers.The movie was very true to Fosse, since he co-wrote it. And I guess this miniseries does well in following, somehow, the movie. I also like that Nicole is involved in the series, and that Lin-Manuel Miranda is one of producers (the last one is just because I want to see him involved in everything I like).

I binged the first three episodes - I never even use my cable box, had to turn it on to watch the episodes on demand, haha. 

[peacheslatour]

I watched Nixon/Frost last night and once again Sam Rockwell virtually disappeared in a role.

[mightysparrow]

6 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I loved that show! In a bit of personal trivia, I saw Debbie's Sweet Charity on Broadway in 1986. 

All That Jazz is one of my all time favorite dance movies. I actually had classes a few years later with one of the credited dancers.The movie was very true to Fosse, since he co-wrote it. And I guess this miniseries does well in following, somehow, the movie. I also like that Nicole is involved in the series, and that Lin-Manuel Miranda is one of producers (the last one is just because I want to see him involved in everything I like).

I binged the first three episodes - I never even use my cable box, had to turn it on to watch the episodes on demand, haha. 

I love Debbie Allen but, watching that clip, I can't take my eyes off Gwen!

I'm happy that she's finally getting her story told and is being given credit to her contribution to the Fosse legend.  And I'm glad that her daughter is involved.  It's like the ultimate gift of love from daughter to mother.  People must tell Nicole how lucky she is to be Bob Fosse's daughter.  She's reminding us that she's also GWEN VERDON'S DAUGHTER.  And that's pretty fucking amazing too!

[atlantaloves]

You can see Nichole dance in the movie version of A Chorus Line....she was really really good....looked so much like her Dad. 

[rur]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

I love Debbie Allen but, watching that clip, I can't take my eyes off Gwen!

Seriously. I understand the difference in styles and backgrounds*, but there are a couple of places where it just plain looks like Debbie is flailing her arms and legs in between Gwen Verdon's dancing segments. Sass and class indeed.

*which is why the scene in White Nights w/ Hines and Baryshnikov dancing together is so damn fascinating

Edited April 30, 2019 by rur
Nights, not Knights

[atlantaloves]

Oh yeah, Gwen makes Debbie look like a total s***, and Debbie is a terrific dancer. Gwen is just simply THE BEST. 

[TimWil]

Well, this seems to be the first time they seriously messed with the timeline. Pippin opened in October 1972 but tonight’s episode would have you believe they were still in rehearsals when Fosse got his Oscar nomination for Cabaret-in 1973. And Fosse won his Oscar before he won his Tonys for Pippin, not after. Oh well.

I still got misty-eyed by Williams’ beautiful acting in that hospital room scene.

Edited May 1, 2019 by TimWil

[elle]

On 4/26/2019 at 11:39 AM, Loandbehold said:

I'm interested in seeing how Ann Reinking is portrayed, given that the Fosse-Verdon daughter is involved in the production.

  Hide contents

Ann was a much bigger part of Fosse's life than the German translator.

When the preview of episode 2 featured a clip of the scene on the beach where Bob tells Gwen that he's "in love with her", I thought surely he must be talking about Ann.  In hindsight, it would have been too soon to introduce her since they seem to be using the Cabaret timeline as the anchor to all the flashbacks and flash forwards.

Edited May 1, 2019 by elle

[ebk57]

19 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I still got misty-eyed by Williams’ beautiful acting in that hospital room scene.

That was stunning.  

I really hated Fosse in this episode.  I liked him much better when he was Roy Scheider... 

[voiceover]

Well.  A letdown.

Let me first credit Aya Cash, whose solemn sweetness filled a dying woman's hospital room with truth.  I loved their last scene together.

Next: only a glimpse of her, but I thought Margaret Qualley nailed the husky hoarseness of Ann Reinking's voice.  I'll be interested to see if she can get Ann back in my good graces.  I've fallen in love with Gwen (never knew nor cared much for her prior to this), and early on, started dreading the ep

Spoiler

when Ann would take over Bob's life as muse and leading lady.

Bleahhhh to that All That Jazz hat-tip, down to Ben Vereen and Gwen as the *actual ex-wife, serenading Bob to suicide.  I liked the movie; I hated this.

But.  His long drag home with his awards in the overnight bag, and all I could hear was Joel Grey at the end of Cabaret:

"Ve haff no troubles here!  Here, life izz beautiful...Ze girls are beautiful...even ze orchestra..is beautiful!"

I wonder how often those words rang in Bob's ears.  This week, I thought of them often.

[Loandbehold]

37 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Next: only a glimpse of her, but I thought Margaret Qualley nailed the husky hoarseness of Ann Reinking's voice.

She also did a pretty good job with the dancing. I could see Ann Reinking in her steps and movement.

[voiceover]

On further reflection, that fantasy sequence also h/t'd Pippin.

There was another All That Jazz flashback, from that amazing opening "On Broadway" audition number....Two woman sulk offstage  after being rejected:

Dancer 1: "Fuck him! He never picks me!"

Dancer 2: "I *did fuck him, but he never picks me!"

[JeanneH]

Not intending to be spoilerific here. Near the end, there's a group including Gwen singing "Corner of the Sky," and when they cut off (Eagles belong where they can fly)... my gawd, the look on Gwen's face is just the definition of steely eyed, or maybe the literal look that kills. Or maybe it was just the cocked straw hat.

[GaT]

Bob Fosse is so unlikable that I don't know if I can continue watching this. Fuck Bob Fosse, I don't care how talented he was.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My first exposure to Pippin was when we sang "Corner of the Sky" in sixth grade, so I have a soft spot for that show.

I really felt for the blonde dancer who Bob walked home after rehearsal. I remember being in similar situations so many times where you have to keep politely saying no to some guy who refuses to take no for an answer. It's almost worse when they attempt to be charming because then they try to turn it around on you or proclaim their innocence. For anyone who is lucky enough that they've never experienced sexual harassment or sexual battery, this is a pretty textbook example:

Fosse: Is this your place?
Sherry: Fifth floor.
Fosse: I'll walk you up.
Sherry: That's fine, Bobby. Thank you.
Fosse: I want to tell you more about the number.
Sherry: Can we talk to morrow? I'm just so tired.
Fosse: Stunning. You're so beautiful, you know that?
Sherry: Thank you.
[Bob touches her face and leans in to kiss her]
Sherry: I should go.
Fosse: What? You got plans? You got a hot date?
Sherry: I'm just wiped out.
Fosse: Tell me about it. Why don't we lie down together?
Sherry: I have a boyfriend.
Fosse: I won't tell him.
Sherry: Bobby.
Fosse: Invite me in. Yeah?
Sherry: I really need to go.
Fosse: I just want a kiss good night. Come on, a real kiss. How about a real kiss?
[Bob kisses her]
Sherry: Sorry, Bobby, I just-
Fosse: What's wrong? Why are you sorry?
Sherry: I can't.
Fosse: What's happening to me? I don't know what to do about it.
Sherry: Bobby, I want us to be friends.
Fosse: I want that too. I want to build a piece for you.
Sherry: Bobby, stop. Bobby, stop, Bobby, stop, Bobby, stop!

Shit like this happens all the time in real life. What makes it worse for Sherry is that Fosse has all the power and he exercises it the next day by taking away the dance with Ben that he'd been dangling in front of her and replacing her with someone else. And Gwen knows exactly what her husband is like because when she sees him cut Sherry and replace her with Ann:

Gwen: Lousy dancer or bad lay?
[Bob sighs]
Gwen: Oh, no. Both.
Bob: [Sherry] doesn't know how to take direction.
Gwen: [Ann]'s good.
Bob: Yeah.
Gwen: She's too good for you.
Bob: What does that mean?
Gwen: It means she knows she doesn't have to visit your hotel room to get the solo.
 

Edited May 1, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, elle said:

When the preview of episode 2 featured a clip of the scene on the beach where Bob tells Gwen that he's "in love with her", I thought surely he must be talking about Ann. 

Gwen follows up his "I'm in love with her" statement by asking, "With the translator? The German girl?" so I assumed it was someone he was involved with while shooting Cabaret.

[Snow Apple]

Since the first episode, I was annoyed with all the scenes with Bob sleeping with all the different women. Like, we get it. 

But he was just so gross in this episode. I've been disliking him but now I hate him. I laughed when Ron beat him up.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

39 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

Since the first episode, I was annoyed with all the scenes with Bob sleeping with all the different women. Like, we get it. 

But he was just so gross in this episode. I've been disliking him but now I hate him. I laughed when Ron beat him up.

It both cracked me up and grossed me out that after Ron punched the crap out of him, he said, "Sorry, Mr. Fosse." It's okay for you to call him Bob, Ron.

[JeanneH]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Gwen: Lousy dancer or bad lay?

[Bob sighs]
Gwen: Oh, no. Both.
Bob: She doesn't know how to take direction.
Gwen: She's good.
Bob: Yeah.
Gwen: She's too good for you.
Bob: What does that mean?
Gwen: It means she knows she doesn't have to visit your hotel room to get the solo.
 

What I found amusing (not quite the right word) about the above is that it starts they're talking about Sherry but from "She's good" onward they're talking about Ann. Sort of Gwen warning him that he won't be able to pull his usual crap with her.

[Snow Apple]

8 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It both cracked me up and grossed me out that after Ron punched the crap out of him, he said, "Sorry, Mr. Fosse." It's okay for you to call him Bob, Ron.

Maybe he didn't feel comfortable calling elders by their first name without permission.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 minutes ago, JeanneH said:

What I found amusing (not quite the right word) about the above is that it starts they're talking about Sherry but from "She's good" onward they're talking about Ann. Sort of Gwen warning him that he won't be able to pull his usual crap with her.

I meant to put the two names in so that it was more clear. Thanks for the reminder!

1 minute ago, Snow Apple said:

Maybe he didn't feel comfortable calling elders by their first name without permission.

He feels comfortable enough to fuck his wife though!

[Snow Apple]

15 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

He feels comfortable enough to fuck his wife though!

Maybe he calls her Mrs. Fosse? Lol. Seriously, I was happy Gwen was getting some and Bob saw she wasn't just waiting around for him.

But I kept thinking "Don't ask him for an audition. Don't ask him for an audition."

Edited May 1, 2019 by Snow Apple

[springbarb]

I loved this episode. The whole Pippin finale sequence was just amazing.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Snow Apple said:

I was happy Gwen was getting some and Bob saw she wasn't just waiting around for him.

Same here. After all his years of blatant philandering, I was glad that she wasn't just sitting around. You're still young and hot and Gwen fucking Verdon, so go find yourself someone while your husband is off catting around!

Part of the reason I was cracking up at Ron being so polite was because I thought, dude, "Mr. Fosse" is never going to hire you or help your career so you might as call him Mr. Motherfucker. Being polite isn't going to unfuck his wife.