All Episodes Talk: Better Things

[DiabLOL]

Wow I absolutely LOVED this entire episode! Sam has my while heart.

She was totally spot on at the party when the two men arrived. I actually worried her friend was afraid if her husband too, anyone else? He seemed awfully agressive and way too demanding to hear what they were talking about in his absence.

I totally sobbed at the end - from the sandwich to Mandy Patinkin.

Edited May 3, 2019 by DiabLOL

[sistermagpie]

On 4/30/2019 at 2:24 PM, Ottis said:

That was one of the most polite confrontations ever! She noted he did, he said he didn't plan on it. It is what it is. As a man over 50, dating someone that young would drive me nuts. It also feels a bit desperate. But whatever works for them, I guess. I much prefer Sam's "my people."

Oh yeah, I didn't think describing it as a confrontation meant that it was aggressive or hostile. Just that she said something about it instead of just smiling and pretending she had no opinion on it. He said he didn't plan on it and Sam said that was bullshit. Iow, if he didn't plan on it it was because he didn't have to, because older women were just invisible to him. But she wasn't angry at him, just calling him on it.

24 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

She was totally spot on at the party when the two men arrived. I actually worried her friend was afraid if her husband too, anyone else? He seemed awfully agressive and way too demanding to gear what they were talking about in his absence.

God, yes. That scene was so realistic and uncomfortable. Love the detail that the guys even left the game early to ruin the party as fast as possible, apparently. And once they were there they were catered to and the party was over. The husband totally was giving off vibes that he was controlling and potentially abusive and threatened by the idea of his wife having friends without him there to supervise. Not that it had to be that extreme. The guy was just clearly an entitled jerk and his wife placated him and got defensive. Sam was completely right.

Really don't like the psychiatrist. You can't date a patient and also complain about her not being sensitive to your emotional needs.

Edited May 3, 2019 by sistermagpie

[DiabLOL]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yeah, I didn't think describing it as a confrontation meant that it was aggressive or hostile. Just that she said something about it instead of just smiling and pretending she had no opinion on it. He said he didn't plan on it and Sam said that was bullshit. Iow, if he didn't plan on it it was because he didn't have to, because older women were just invisible to him. But she wasn't angry at him, just calling him on it.

God, yes. That scene was so realistic and uncomfortable. Love the detail that the guys even left the game early to ruin the party as fast as possible, apparently. And once they were there they were catered to and the party was over. The husband totally was giving off vibes that he was controlling and potentially abusive and threatened by the idea of his wife having friends without him there to supervise. Not that it had to be that extreme. The guy was just clearly an entitled jerk and his wife placated him and got defensive. Sam was completely right.

Yes, totally. Also I liked how in the beginning they're all talking about how important women's friendships with other women are and we need to TALK etc then as soon as Sam called out the husband's bullshit behavior as well as the bullshit of the women catering and giving in to them the woman immediately said to Sam "hey maybe *you* should leave" which also pinged hard for me in the control/abuse department.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, DiabLOL said:

Yes, totally. Also I liked how in the beginning they're all talking about how important women's friendships with other women are and we need to TALK etc then as soon as Sam called out the husband's bullshit behavior as well as the bullshit of the women catering and giving in to them the woman immediately said to Sam "hey maybe *you* should leave" which also pinged hard for me in the control/abuse department.

Yes, the fact that it was suddenly "his house" and the wife was defending herself for "loving her husband" so she could avoid what Sam was really pointing out, which was that the husband had no respect for the special night his wife had been planning for months. He couldn't give them the privacy and as soon as he appeared she was doing the dishes to signal that the night was over and everyone understood that was the case. The wife immediately turned his disrespect into some proof of her love for him. She was so well-trained she didn't even think to show disappointment at her own night being cut short.

[DiabLOL]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, the fact that it was suddenly "his house" and the wife was defending herself for "loving her husband" so she could avoid what Sam was really pointing out, which was that the husband had no respect for the special night his wife had been planning for months. He couldn't give them the privacy and as soon as he appeared she was doing the dishes to signal that the night was over and everyone understood that was the case. The wife immediately turned his disrespect into some proof of her love for him. She was so well-trained she didn't even think to show disappointment at her own night being cut short.

She seemed downright nervous even, scared to me. I was also pretty freaked when the other friend's immediate reaction was to run, not walk and see if he wanted ice cream. 

He was one minute away from demanding to know just exactly what his wife had been telling them all about him. Did they all know?

Leaving the game early was such a getting ahead of it move on his part. Turning on the lights. Most people's partners would be more than happy to stay away and say text me when they're gone so I can come home. It's kind of an instinctive this isn't my party situation.

i really couldn't get a read on Sam as in did she also suspect something as well or was she merely in the knee jerk about bad man behavior stage of it all. I wonder of there will be a follow-up on this issue. I hope so.

[pasdetrois]

I loved this episode. The women's pool-side chat referenced how older women are disappeared in our society, which I touched on in an earlier post. It's a bona fide cultural phenomenon and when one encounters it, it's painful and sobering. We're expected to become Cheerful Grandmas or Dotty Cat Ladies.

As played, the returning husband did appear controlling and possibly abusive. However, even if he is neither of those things, he represents the legions of men who perhaps pay lip service to equality in the home but don't really support it. Bottom line, they expect their needs and behaviors to be catered to.

I'm enjoying Sam's sweet moments with Duke. However, when Duke chomped into that Grandpa sandwich, all I could think about is how Keith Richards infamously claimed to have snorted his father's cremains.

Sam is mourning the fact that more than half of her life is over, and how to face the future.

[bigmag]

All I could think about at the end when Sam sees the bear outside is that Duke is ACROSS THE STREET AT HER GRANDMOTHER'S HOUSE and will be walking home anytime.  Hope to GOD the bear isn't roaming around then.

[pasdetrois]

Meant to sat that looked like a brown bear (grizzly), not a black bear as speculated in the opening sequence.

[TVbitch]

I got distracted while watching, why was Duke eating a Grandpa sandwich?

Just when I thought the psyhiatrist might actually have some sense about him, next thing I know they are making out.

I actually find getting older and not getting as much attention very freeing. Once I realized no one was looking at me, I stopped worrying so much about what I look like.    

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I thought it odd that Sam went to go throw Mandy out and then ended up flushing him without Duke. Wasn't Mandy Patinkin Duke's pet? Wouldn't she like to say good-bye to him? She's not even going to be able to eat his ashes for closure so what's she going to do?

I liked that the episode featured two examples of what women experience. For the first, turning invisible, I definitely fall into the camp where I like it. I never felt like I got "juice" when strange men "complimented" me, told me to smile, hit on me, honked at me, whistled at me, yelled stuff at me, ogled or stared me, followed me around or just wanted some kind of interaction with me. It just exhausted me so I'm glad it's done now.

For the second, I didn't read abuse from it but rather entitlement. Men have a way of making everything about them and women go along with it, like when the one woman ran after the husband asking him if he wanted dessert. He was so annoying asking if they were talking about him and just generally inserting himself into their party. I think Sam was 100% right to be upset about it. They had a whole thing planned to celebrate their female friendship and that's OK. It's also OK if the guys wanted to go to the game on their own, for example. But women have a right to have a male-free bonding experience as much as men have a right to a female-free bonding experience. We had an annual Women's Lunch at my work and one year this ridiculous woman let some men know about it and the men ended up coming to the lunch. It completely ruined it. The men did the lion's share of the talking and deciding what topics we would discuss, even though there were fewer men than women there. It's really nice to just get away from that and have something that is just for women once in awhile.

[pasdetrois]

Quote

I actually find getting older and not getting as much attention very freeing.

Agree about that - I no longer wear makeup every single day.

But I was speaking of being ignored in a more systematic way. As in patiently standing in line at Home Depot, waiting for my turn to get some paint mixed. Trying to get the attention of the male clerk who only deigned to answer my questions in short irritated responses. And having the clerk turn his attentions to a young woman who waltzed up and cut in front of me.

Another one is getting proper attention from young hairdressers. They aren't interested in a pudgy graying grandma - they want young fashionable clients. When my long-time hairdresser retired, I had a difficult time finding someone who was really interested in my hair.

[Ottis]

13 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I loved this episode. The women's pool-side chat referenced how older women are disappeared in our society, which I touched on in an earlier post. It's a bona fide cultural phenomenon and when one encounters it, it's painful and sobering. We're expected to become Cheerful Grandmas or Dotty Cat Ladies.

As played, the returning husband did appear controlling and possibly abusive. However, even if he is neither of those things, he represents the legions of men who perhaps pay lip service to equality in the home but don't really support it. Bottom line, they expect their needs and behaviors to be catered to.

I'm enjoying Sam's sweet moments with Duke. However, when Duke chomped into that Grandpa sandwich, all I could think about is how Keith Richards infamously claimed to have snorted his father's cremains.

Sam is mourning the fact that more than half of her life is over, and how to face the future.

Men face a similar issue. I don’t think there is anything unique about men or women of a certain age, especially after having kids, becoming invisible to “the juice.” In fact, if men with kids have a soft body they get the “dad bod” label. It’s really a wider societal aspect. 

And the husband was an asshole. He should be able to come home, but he should have done so quietly and without disturbing the women. 

Even so, Sam was obnoxious about it. 

What’s the deal with Sam and her kids all seeing dead people? 

What was under Sam’s “Sunshine” shirt that was sort of sparkly? Seemed too high for a belt. Was it in the shirt? 

Sam has issues with men. Or PA does. This show is a hostile environment for straight men. They aren’t all Louis CK.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Men face a similar issue. I don’t think there is anything unique about men or women of a certain age, especially after having kids, becoming invisible to “the juice.” In fact, if men with kids have a soft body they get the “dad bod” label. It’s really a wider societal aspect. 

There was a whole thing when Dad bod became a thing about how it was attractive. The vulnerability is seen with affection. Movies and TV shows are full of pudgy guys and older men with young hot women. There's a wider societal aspect, but it's hugely different depending on gender.

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

And the husband was an asshole. He should be able to come home, but he should have done so quietly and without disturbing the women. 

Even so, Sam was obnoxious about it. 

I thought it was great she said something, no matter how she did it. The guy coming home quietly would have been better, but it was all of a piece. His decision to come home early was motivated by the same disrespect as his walking in on them. Sam's behavior got her asked to leave. His behavior got him defended.

But iirc, Sam's real confrontation wasn't to him, it was to the other women and I thought that was great. They were the ones who reacted to the men walking in by turning into little birds in a Disney movie fluttering around Princess Husband. They had just been talking about female friendships and then men walked in and they went into support mode as if all this bonding was a pose.

[HollyG]

On 4/30/2019 at 1:45 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Plays go through many iterations before ever reaching Broadway so this might be just one in a series of readings. After the readings come workshops (which have basic direction, costumes, sets, choreography) and then an out of town production and/or an off-Broadway production. After all that, the show MIGHT end up going to Broadway.

At any of these stages, cast changes can be made. Sometimes there will be actors who stay with the role for the entire process (which can take years), but it is not uncommon to recast at different stages (sometimes an actor isn't the right fit, sometimes the chemistry isn't there, sometimes so much time has passed that the actor has committed to another project and is unavailable). There is never any guarantee that even if the show eventually makes it to Broadway that any of the actors will still be with the show by then.

Just as an example, Phillipa Soo was involved with productions of The Great Comet (2 off Broadway versions in 2012 and 2013), Amélie (2012 workshop, 2016 Los Angeles production, 2017 Broadway), and Hamilton (2014 workshop, 2015 off Broadway, and Broadway).

She was in the very early workshops for Amélie in 2012 and then she was in the off Broadway productions of The Great Comet in 2012 & 2013. She was then involved in the second workshop for Hamilton in 2014 and then the 2015 off Broadway Hamilton production and the Broadway show.

When her Hamilton contract was up in 2016, she was offered the main roles in both Amélie (which had done an out of town production at Berkeley Rep with Samantha Barks in 2015 while Phillipa was still in Hamilton) and The Great Comet. This just goes to show how different the length of the journey to Broadway can be. Amélie had early workshops in 2012 but didn't actually get to Broadway until 2017. Eight of the cast members from the first out of town production in Berkeley were also in the Broadway cast, but there were five cast members who were replaced for the second out of town try out in Los Angeles.

Similarly, there were nine actors at the Vassar workshop of Hamilton. Only three of them went on to the off Broadway cast. But from the off Broadway cast, only one change was made before Broadway (and that was due to Brian D'arcy James being cast in Something Rotten). And timewise, Hamilton took about two years to go from workshop to off Broadway to Broadway.

That was my longwinded version of saying that you never know what will happen when someone wants to take a play to Broadway. The entire cast could change or they might keep everyone. It could get to Broadway quickly or it could take years. Even though I hope that Sam gets to perform on Broadway, I think she knows better than to get her hopes up too much after just one reading. There is no guarantee that anything will come of this.

Thank you for the explanation. I don't get to see a lot of theater, and I know very little about the production of the shows. So this was very enlightening. TY

[HollyG]

On 5/3/2019 at 5:44 AM, pasdetrois said:

I loved this episode. The women's pool-side chat referenced how older women are disappeared in our society, which I touched on in an earlier post. It's a bona fide cultural phenomenon and when one encounters it, it's painful and sobering. We're expected to become Cheerful Grandmas or Dotty Cat Ladies.

As played, the returning husband did appear controlling and possibly abusive. However, even if he is neither of those things, he represents the legions of men who perhaps pay lip service to equality in the home but don't really support it. Bottom line, they expect their needs and behaviors to be catered to.

"It's a bona fide cultural phenomenon".  This.

I had a similar experience with a guy I was dating. He knew I was having women over one evening for a night of "women only" bonding. And yet he showed up, completely uninvited, without calling, etc. I told him at the front door that I still had company... but he insisted he'd stay in the bedroom and watch tv. I told him he couldn't stay, and asked him to leave. He seemed completely baffled and his attitude reflected that for a week. (baby!)

I didn't get 'abuse' from the husband.... but just that same sort of entitlement. His evening was over so he expected hers to be also. Like 'I'm here now.... all of your friends can run along home now'. And the wife obliged by clearing the plates, offering dessert, etc... making it clear the evening was over because her husband was home. 

I can't tell sometimes if it's the men or women who are completely unaware.

Edited May 5, 2019 by HollyG

[bilgistic]

I actually said out loud to the cats, "What the fuck?!" when the friend offered the husband ice cream. It was appalling.

I am 44 and overweight, but the weight is generally evenly distributed and I have big boobs. I look 10+ years younger. I have felt invisible and unattractive (I can't be bothered with more makeup than mascara) until l started working as a cashier in March. Jesus Rollerskating Christ, you'd think I was sex on a stick. All the "hey, pretty lady", "hey, baby," "smile for me" (fuck off!), and generally overt and gross hit-ons have been shocking. Men are so disgusting.

[Jeanne222]

Girls night..no men allowed.  Sam does not have a husband to walk in at her girls night out.  Let her have them!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Jeanne222 said:

Girls night..no men allowed.  Sam does not have a husband to walk in at her girls night out.  Let her have them!

Wasn't part of the point that her friend was the one who wanted to have it? Like it wasn't something they just decided to do, it was something this person wanted to do and she invited them all, even the one who was going to fly in from out of town. Her having a husband didn't mean he'd do what he did. That was a choice of this guy that showed what he thought of the whole thing.

Edited May 4, 2019 by sistermagpie

[MJS]

Could Duke be any cuter? I wonder if the scene with her hiccups was accidental and they decided to film because it was just too sweet. 

[Lemons]

On 4/6/2019 at 12:56 PM, TVbitch said:

I admit I kind of hate watch this show. ...just like I did Louie. 

I liked Louie a lot better.  His kids were funny.  Even though they were younger than these kids, they were much better actors.  

[Lemons]

On 4/7/2019 at 12:48 AM, Blissfool said:

I considered them consensual because he asked them permission, but, alas, carry on. I'll sit at my table for one. 

Same, I remember it being consensual, they just said they didn't really want to although they agreed verbally. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Episodes like this are why I love Better Things. They aren't afraid to bring up issues that other shows aren't talking about like becoming invisible, menopause (which, when mentioned on other shows, is just used as a punchline), and the kind of subtler male/female dynamics we saw when the husband came home.

Yes, when you are married, the house belongs to both of you, but when one of you plans something months in advance, the least you could do is not barge in.

It's not like the women were all sitting in the room closest to the front door and there was no way for him to come in without being seen by everyone. They were all the way in the backyard so he made a deliberate effort to interrupt them. And it wasn't like he just said, "Hi, everyone! Just wanted to let my wife know I'm home safe and sound. Nice to see you all again. Hope you're all having fun. Good night!" and then left. He went into the backyard, walked all the way down the steps, turned on all the lights, and kept asking what they were talking about and wouldn't leave, forcing the women to make polite conversation with him about the game and traffic and WHO CARES? That's a dick move, intentional or not. At best he was being inconsiderate and socially inadept. At worst he was being a manipulative control freak asshole.

I mean, seriously, you can't let your wife have a few hours with her friends? Thank goodness they weren't still naked in the hot tub when he got home.

Heh and Sam's face in that scene was totally me. I do not have a poker face so it's clear when I think someone is being a dick.

On 5/4/2019 at 11:47 AM, Jeanne222 said:

Girls night..no men allowed.  Sam does not have a husband to walk in at her girls night out.  Let her have them!

Sam hosts lots of nights at her house but that and the fact that she doesn't have a rude husband doesn't mean that she should have to host every event in her social circle (plus you know that her rude, needy, selfish kids would interrupt every ten minutes with some kind of whining complaint). That reminds me of my unmarried friend - her family thinks that because she's unmarried and doesn't have kids, she should take care of all the family crises. Nope. Besides, Nurse Carla is the one who planned the whole thing. It's not like the rest of them forced her to host the event.

Edited May 6, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo
Typo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S3.E11: Get Lit

Quote

Sam chaperones and Frankie slams. Written by Joe Hortua & Ira Parker; directed by Pamela Adlon.

Promo:

Clips

The medium

Frankie's program

Original air date: 5/9/19

Edited May 20, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Jeanne222]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Sam hosts lots of nights at her house but that and the fact that she doesn't have a rude husband doesn't mean that she should have to host every event in her social circle (plus you know that her rude, needy, selfish kids would interrupt every ten minutes with some kind of whining complaint). That reminds me of my unmarried friend - her family thinks that because she's unmarried and doesn't have kids, she should take care of all the family crises. Nope. Besides, Nurse Carla is the one who planned the whole thing. It's not like the rest of them forced her to host the event.

Yes I was wrong!  Sam does a lot of hosting and the husband was intrusive and wrong!

I guess I just quickly was looking for a solution!

[txhorns79]

On 5/3/2019 at 1:53 PM, TVbitch said:

I got distracted while watching, why was Duke eating a Grandpa sandwich? 

That whole thing was seriously weird.  I have no idea why she did that, and I'm not sure if the show actually explained why Duke needed to eat the ashes. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 5/3/2019 at 2:10 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I thought it odd that Sam went to go throw Mandy out and then ended up flushing him without Duke. Wasn't Mandy Patinkin Duke's pet? Wouldn't she like to say good-bye to him? She's not even going to be able to eat his ashes for closure so what's she going to do?

The kids had a whole ceremony for "dead" Sam. Duke could have dealt with a dead pet mouse.

[ciaoformeow]

Just when I thought the two eldest daughters were growing up a bit, the latest episode hits hard with their entitled behavior. 

I find watching the girls so hard - difficult to finish an episode when they're in most of it. 

My mom was a single mom and even at the peak of my teenage bitchiness, I would never... But then again, it may also be a cultural thing *shrug*  but I find it so painful to watch them treat Sam the way that they do. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Frankie: There is something piglike about a salon. You know, snouts in the trough of privilege and the troughs are all the hairdryers and the pig grunts are all the bits of gossip.
Toby: This one. Wow.
Sam: Yeah, I know.
Toby: She should be listened to.
Sam: Like I have a choice.
Toby: Clearly you are a sharp kid, Frankie.
Frankie: Well, thank you.
Toby: But you know that sharpness can hurt people.
Frankie: Oh, well, no, I know, but I'm not like that. I'm pretty chill.
[Sam snorts]

Sam: Phil, we're in the middle of something.
Phil: Yes, go on. I'll just sit and watch.
Sam: Don't you have somewhere you need to be?
Phil: No, not at all.

Toby: I couldn't help but notice that this house is filled with women.
Phil: Oh, yes. Flooding with estrogen. Wall to wall vaginas. It's like a matriarchal dystopia, especially as it's well known that half the women on my side of the family are witches.

Toby: You girls mind if I give you some advice? Something I wish I would have known when I was young. If you have a toxic person in your life, you need to move past him or her and protect yourselves.
Max: How do you move past a dad? It's my dad.
Toby: Don't think of him that way. Think of him as a friend, someone who let you down. What do you do with a friend like that? You move on.

Phil: Don't slouch, love. No one will take your seriously.  A man who slouches is like a man who carries a purse. You'll get away with it but everyone will judge you.

Jona: Have you ever had [marijuana] before?
Phil: I most certainly have not. Do I look like some flower child to you?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After only a few minutes, I was already having a hard time not turning off this episode. Max and Frankie are such spoiled brats that I hate every scene they're in. Frankie going on and on about how salons are a trough of privilege just made me roll my eyes. Take a look around, Frankie. You are a privileged child living in a very nice part of LA. You don't work. You don't worry about having food on the table. Your mom gives you everything you ask for. You have no chores or responsibilities. You come and go as you please. Your mom doesn't blink when she comes home from a trip and the house is full of your friends. But yes, all those women at the salons are the privileged ones, not you. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry because Frankie is so delusional or lacking in self awareness that she thinks she's chill.

Phil drives me crazy too. Yes, feel free to let yourself into my house, interrupt what I'm doing, and plop yourself down to make snide comments.

I could not believe that Max had the nerve to tell Sam, "You can't scold us. We're not kids anymore." Not to sound like a grandpa, but as long as you are living in your mom's house rent-free, she is allowed to scold you and your friends for things like leaving your drug paraphernalia out in plain sight where your 11 year old sister could have found it. When Sam came back and yelled at Max and her friends, I was like FINALLY! And no, Paisley, I don't feel bad for you just because you burst into tears because Sam was right - she practically raised you and you can't show her the tiniest bit of respect when you're getting high in her house?

As for Sam telling Frankie's teacher that she stays out all night without calling or texting and "When did that become okay?" Well, apparently it became okay when Frankie realized that there are absolutely no consequences for her actions. I know that being a single parent is hard, but the answer is not to let her 14 year old child do whatever she wants.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I could not believe that Max had the nerve to tell Sam, "You can't scold us. We're not kids anymore."

I could.  It's been so depressing this season watching the way Max and Frankie treat her, and their almost comically entitled attitudes.  These kids have no idea how good they have things.  I wanted to get up and applaud at Sam finally not being bulldozed by Max.  Seriously Sam, present Max with a bill for the money you lost when she dropped out of college, then present her with a second bill for monthly room and board. 

[Caseysgirl]

God - if Pamela Adlon’s real life children are anything like these kids I feel for her.  I was a single mom of teenagers,too, and I guess it was good that I had no money to spoil my kids with because these entitled brats are too much.

[sistermagpie]

Some of the things we saw at the poetry slam were good (particularly that one guy talking about code-switching) but I couldn't help but think of that running SNL sketch about the high school theater shows. Especially Frankie's.

I mean, Sam's exactly the kind of parent who would be in tears listening to Frankie bring up not seeing her dad and overhearing her mom crying, but it was again one of those moments where I wished (but didn't expect) Sam to say okay, if you want some truth, here's some truth: No, it would be completely irresponsible to have been open about those things at the time even if I had known them. Fourteen-year-old you would be a terrible Mom to eight-year-old you.

I get that Frankie is always mad at Sam because she can't be mad at her dad because he's not there and doesn't care, but it's still funny listening to her self-righteously talk about wanting Sam's "truth" while also criticizing everything out of Sam's mouth as stupid. Particularly at the very show where she just emotionally claimed it's what she wanted. (Which was the point, I'm sure.)

Here's the version of the SNL sketch it totally made me think of, especially the parts about "getting out the tangles":

[Ottis]

I actually am not repelled by the entitled attitudes of Max and Frankie. When you are successful enough to give your kids most of what they want, especially if you did not get what you wanted as a kid, you do it because... you can and you want your kids to be happy. And you *tell* them to be thankful and to understand their privilege and you think they do... and they don’t. Maybe mentally, but not emotionally. Because ultimately, knowing something cognitively and actually experiencing it are very different. But that’s what happens. 

Frankie is clearly bright. And she has a conscience. And underneath, I think she may be kind. Max, I’m not sure. She seems lost. 

Now the poetry slam stuff, blah. It sounds like whining disguised as art. Good for them I suppose. Pointless ultimately. 

This show is better when life happens and they deal with it. When it’s about manufactured events, it’s harder to watch. 

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Now the poetry slam stuff, blah. It sounds like whining disguised as art. Good for them I suppose. Pointless ultimately. 

Yes, that's the way it struck me. Everyone had to do poetry about how they were aggrieved in some way, with some having more of a point than others. I'm sure the Vietnamese girl was also somehow making it about her. I just found myself wondering if anybody ever thought to write a poem about something outside of themselves that wasn't just about self-righteously caring about it while other people didn't. 

Totally agree on the kids, though. With Frankie especially it seems like the point is that she's going through a phase where she's mean to her mom all the time, but it's not necessarily who she is as a person forever. 

With Max I'm now wondering if all her friends are just exactly the same as her since they're all hanging around at home too. Did they all drop out of college or was Max unique in that she even managed it for a few weeks? I have no complaints about the scene, though, because I find it a lot more true to what's being described to me than would be Max being a working photographer somehow. 

[Lemons]

8 hours ago, Caseysgirl said:

God - if Pamela Adlon’s real life children are anything like these kids I feel for her.  I was a single mom of teenagers,too, and I guess it was good that I had no money to spoil my kids with because these entitled brats are too much.

It’s definitely not the money that made these kids miserable.  Maybe they see the way Sam treats her mother and see that as normal.  It’s a bit over the top.  Even their spoken word poem was whiny. 

[Liamsmom617]

On 5/10/2019 at 7:51 AM, Caseysgirl said:

God - if Pamela Adlon’s real life children are anything like these kids I feel for her.  I was a single mom of teenagers,too, and I guess it was good that I had no money to spoil my kids with because these entitled brats are too much.

My thoughts exactly!! There is a lot I can relate to on this show as a single Mom of teens, but thankfully my kids are nowhere NEAR this disrespectful or rude to me. I like to think it's not only b/c we aren't wealthy, but that may be a big part of it. With this episode in particular, I practically stood up and cheered when Sam yelled at Max and her friends. And Frankie....if the aim of this episode (this season, really) is to make us despise Frankie, well, mission accomplished. I'm not a fan of spoken-word, poetry-slam-type stuff to begin with (YMMV), but Frankie's in particular...and her bratty rejection of Sam afterward when all Sam wanted to do was praise her....UGH. What an entitled little shit!

Edited May 11, 2019 by Liamsmom617

[CarpeFelis]

On 5/10/2019 at 2:05 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Phil drives me crazy too. Yes, feel free to let yourself into my house, interrupt what I'm doing, and plop yourself down to make snide comments.

I could not believe that Max had the nerve to tell Sam, "You can't scold us. We're not kids anymore." Not to sound like a grandpa, but as long as you are living in your mom's house rent-free, she is allowed to scold you and your friends for things like leaving your drug paraphernalia out in plain sight where your 11 year old sister could have found it. When Sam came back and yelled at Max and her friends, I was like FINALLY!

I SO wished Sam would have replied to "we're not kids anymore" with, "You know what? Adults pay their own way. If you want to be treated like an adult, either get a real job and start paying rent or move the hell out of my house. And I'm not falling for your bullshit emotional blackmail about horrible things that might happen to you."

Don't even get me started on Phyl. That woman is exasperating and just as rude and entitled as Max and Frankie. (I was horrified by her behavior at her boyfriend's party where she was generally rude to everyone and knocked a little kid into the pool to get to an Easter egg first... WTF?!) I was so glad when the medium brought up Murray and she walked out. Also when he told Frankie that she could be hurtful and to take it down a notch, especially with her mom. Not that it apparently made an impression on her for more than a minute, given how she behaved at the end.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was trying to figure out if Toby was a real psychic (only because Sam asked Matthew Broderick to come to the house and tell the kids essentially what Toby ended up telling them).

1 hour ago, CarpeFelis said:

when he told Frankie that she could be hurtful and to take it down a notch, especially with her mom. Not that it apparently made an impression on her for more than a minute, given how she behaved at the end.

But Frankie isn't like that! She's so chill! She said so herself!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, CarpeFelis said:

I SO wished Sam would have replied to "we're not kids anymore" with, "You know what? Adults pay their own way. If you want to be treated like an adult, either get a real job and start paying rent or move the hell out of my house. And I'm not falling for your bullshit emotional blackmail about horrible things that might happen to you."

Same here. Max is that age where she wants to be treated like an adult but she's still acting like a child. Adults don't have to be told to clean up the huge mess they just made in the kitchen. Adults have jobs. Adults pay rent. Adults don't leave their drugs lying around for an 11 year old to pick up. If you want to be treated like an adult, start acting like one, Max.

The only difference between Max the high school student and Max the college dropout is now she doesn't have any classes to attend. Everything else is the same - she lives at home for free, has no responsibilities, and Sam pays for everything - her food, her clothes, her constant Uber rides, etc.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside S3:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

S3.E12: Shake the Cocktail

Quote

Sam searches and takes a breath.

Promo:

Frankie's friend:

Sam's raven:

Original air date: 5/16/19

Edited May 27, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Marci]

Is part of the whole “let’s show with realism how difficult it is for women to age” the reason why Sam is in a constant battle with her hairbrushes and why she has let her ends dry out?

And, any mother who commands such little respect from her daughters should expect prostitutes, drug addicts, and grandchildren to care for until the day she dies.

Sam should have taken everything off the table and thrown it in the garbage bin. Then she should have grabbed that brat by the hair and thrown her out the door.  Then she should have looked threateningly at the others enough so that they all ran out like the little twits they are.

And the three giving that performance? Just 3 more brats who are “teaching” their parents.  Just 3 more brats who aren’t being given enough. Just 3 more brats calling everyone else entitled, as a cover for their own feeling that they should be entitled to everything they want.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Marci

[scrb]

I wonder why the show keeps repeatedly put on scenes of the daughters being disrespectful to the mother.

Do they think viewers like those scenes or that critics like them?

Or maybe the actresses can only play self-righteous.

The girls actually screech at times, like nails on chalkboard.

Are we suppose to sympathize with Sam?  More than likely, kids who talk to their parents like that all the time do so because the parents let them.

On top of that, she gives them credit cards and then complain about them using Uber too much or last night, Postmates to deliver who knows what.

So what are we suppose to conclude from the fact that Sam is such a doormat?

[possibilities]

Sam seems to feel like the way her children treat her is normal. I don't know what the show is trying to say, but it comes off like they want us to be sympathetic to Sam because kids are terrible, but I think it's her fault because she seems to 99% of the time encourage them to be shitty.

[Caseysgirl]

What exactly is Frankie’s problem with her mother?  I haven’t watched every season so I’m not sure what the genesis of all this hatred is from.  Yes, a lot of teenagers are assholes & disrespectful to their custodial parent but to leave home without a reason seems harsh. Also, if she’s only 14 and not coming home, Sam should call the police and perhaps get a PINs on her.  Brutal, yes, but someone needs to set serious boundaries.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Caseysgirl said:

What exactly is Frankie’s problem with her mother?  I haven’t watched every season so I’m not sure what the genesis of all this hatred is from.  Yes, a lot of teenagers are assholes & disrespectful to their custodial parent but to leave home without a reason seems harsh. Also, if she’s only 14 and not coming home, Sam should call the police and perhaps get a PINs on her.  Brutal, yes, but someone needs to set serious boundaries.

I think the point is that she doesn't have a real problem with Sam. She's just at a point where she hates her. Like when Sam came to her with the chili and she told her to stop being so needy. It was just everything about Sam that annoyed her. She's also making a point of being super sweet and polite to everyone else, inviting the friend to the recital, doing dishes at her friends' house. Sending orders about what Duke is allowed to touch or not touch while she's gone etc.

But Frankie's got a lot of safety nets. Her friends' parents are not only willing to have somebody else's kid move in with them for no particular reason but when they go away on vacation they enlist grandma to come and stay with her? It doesn't occur to them to tell her she needs to leave either. Sam continues to trail after her begging even though as her shrink pointed out, she's perfectly safe. There's literally no reason to worry about her getting into trouble. She's still enjoying all the benefits Sam provides like money and tutors and a phone etc. (And a bathtub when she feels gross.)

It was really hard to empathize with Sam in this ep for that reason. If it were me I think I'd be thrilled to get time away from her. She's not dead or in any trouble whatsoever so beyond that I think I'd have little interest. I'd probably also use her extended tantrum to get out of having to go to yet another one of her tedious recitals. I'd just say I forgot the date or something. 

Oh, and I doubt I'd be paying her phone bills either. Let her friends' parents buy her a phone. I'd probably also tell her to take all her anger at being a child of divorce and tell her to shout it at her father for a change. Or shout it into his voicemail since he doesn't return calls.

Edited May 17, 2019 by sistermagpie

[HoneyBeach]

First time poster, long time lurker.  I had to post to say I am not a violent person, but it was all I could do not to slap that brat's face through the tv! My own teen daughter would never speak to me like this because she knows I'm her mother, not her friend. And IF anything close to this situation ever happened between us, I would not be paying her bills or fixing her chili. Even if I was home crying and praying to God she was ok, I would not let her walk all over me. She's my only child and I love her more than anything, but NO!

[pasdetrois]

I haven't seen the latest episode, but am chiming in to say that what I see going on with Sam and her girls is the same thing I see with privileged families everywhere (which is how I classify Sam's family). There are these little mini-communities where the kids are indulged and the parents don't impose respect and responsibility. They are self-satisfied and smug about their group entitlement. 

The kids are cosseted all the way through life - from home to college to jobs to marriages. Sam has one foot in the cosseted world and one foot in the practical world, realizing that her girls need to be prepared to make their way in the world. But it may be too late for the two older ones.

I understand that they are teenagers, but there are millions of parents who don't tolerate the nonsense we see from Frankie and Max. Teenage hormones, absent daddies, etc. are no excuse.

[xwordfanatik]

I'm just watching.  Dear God, has there ever been a more nasty, vile, little see you next Tuesday than Frankie?  I went through a can't stand mom phase, my daughter did too, but to this extent? Never.  I hope Pamela's real daughter/s weren't like this.  Apparently even Frankie's friends (how does she even have friends?) cannot impart any awareness of what a loving mother she has.  Damn.  Will Frankie ever grow the fuck up?

[Darian]

I get way too defensive on behalf of Sam. My mother was nothing like her, except Sam reminds me of her because every kid who had a terrible home life could come to my house (but not stay indefinitely without parental permission, good grief) and be fed and comforted and loved by a smart-ass, no nonsense but amazingly loving woman  (guess she was something like Sam). Mother's Days were basically all my friends and my sisters' friends calling or visiting my mom (half of them called her Mom) . So I almost didn't make it through this season, because it crossed the line into too hard to watch. But I'm glad I kept going, because there's nothing else like it and when it works, it really works.