S04.E07: Down the Rabbit Hole

[Atlanta]

In the book she is more prepared. She buys a horse and is also in pants. Leghair thinks she's Jamie from a distance and so does young Jamie when he first comes across her. She seeks out Lallybroch before even thinking about a ship. She doesn't know if they are in the colonies yet so she starts there. I'm bummed that Laura Donnelly was unavailable. Jenny loves Jamie so much and bonded with Bree in the short time they had together. If non book readers are peeking in here, you may wonder why they didn't fly to North Carolina and try to pass through there, they weren't aware of all the places of portals/standing stones. I didn't truly warm up to Bree until the most recent book. However, her and Claire do form a close relationship that they didn't have back in Boston.

Who else is envious of Sophie's skin?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Atlanta

[areca]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I honestly don't have a problem with her and don't understand all the criticism. I can only imagine that book readers must have had a very different idea of her in their heads or something. That's kind of the problem with any adaptation - if the actor isn't what you pictured when you read the book it's hard to accept them as that character.

I found her acting to be wooden, uninspired, and bland at the very best.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with the book or preconceived ideas, thankyouverymuch.

[AuntieMame]

Glaze Crazy, you're very perceptive. I love the idea that Frank would have continued to be the obsessive researcher he was. Makes complete sense and is earned and in character. Frank was friends with Rogers adoptive father due to shared research interests long before Claire's adventures through the stones. It was nice to see Frank this episode. 

[Nidratime]

Here's the obituary. Click on the photo to enlarge it.

https://imgur.com/a/0HIEcVr

[theschnauzers]

One thing about the microfiche printout of the obit and the cover letter.  While we now know Bree had seen the documents in Frank’s office, they were the same documents that Fiona found and shared with Roger when he arrived in Inverness a couple of episodes back after Bree had left Boston..

[Nidratime]

Having watched the episode again, I love how 20th Century Brianna says to Lizzie's father upon hearing their plight, "Then don't let him have her." LOL! Pretty straight-forward 20th Century thinking.

Also, I think we've witnessed a circular scene. When Claire went through the stones, back to the 1940's, Jamie was entrusting his wife and baby-to-come, to Frank. And, in this episode, we just witnessed Frank handing over Brianna to Jamie, at least in Brianna's mind. He nodded his head as she headed off on a ship to America to her biological father.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Nidratime

[Atlanta]

18 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Having watched the episode again, I love how 20th Century Brianna says to Lizzie's father upon hearing their plight, "Then don't let him have her." LOL! Pretty straight-forward 20th Century thinking.

Also, I think we've witnessed a circular scene. When Claire went through the stones, back to the 1940's, Jamie was entrusting his wife and baby-to-come, to Frank. And, in this episode, we just witnessed Frank handing over Brianna to Jamie, at least in Brianna's mind. He nodded his head as she headed off on a ship to America to her biological father.

I wonder if this is a nod to when Claire helps birth Jemmy, and Bree and Roger get married. She (Claire) quietly (in her head anyway), says, "She's married!" or "She has a son." Claire continues to acknowledge Frank throughout the series.  

[Scarlett45]

31 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I wonder if this is a nod to when Claire helps birth Jemmy, and Bree and Roger get married. She (Claire) quietly (in her head anyway), says, "She's married!" or "She has a son." Claire continues to acknowledge Frank throughout the series.  

Although Claire wasn’t in love with Frank she did always acknowledge that he was an excellent father and the primary caregiver to Brianna with medical school, residency and being a physician being so time intensive, as a professor Frank had more time to spend with her.

 

In the show when Brianna finds the newspaper article and figures out Frank couldn’t be her biofather, the language Claire used was very 2018 (progressive for the 1960s) “he was your father in every way that mattered, but he didn’t make you, Jaime and I did)”. I think Claire and Frank’s relationship was very complex. They had a history of romantic love, separated by serving in WW2, years a part where Claire falls in love with someone else, and last two decades of raising a child together. 

[theschnauzers]

In the opening production was quite meticulous about the jars and labels for the peanut butter and jelly, as in time appropriate JIF peanut butter and Welch’s grape jelly.

[Squirrely]

How in the hell would Loaghaire and Joanie manage to haul an unconscious Brianna into a wagon (I assume) and up the stairs of that house and into bed? And I hope we weren't supposed to believe that Brianna would even entertain the idea of Jamie not wanting his and Claire's baby. She knows darn well why they separated!!

I like the character of Brianna. DG does a good job of making her characters flawed (some perhaps too much) and therefore realistic. She's a bit of a brat and Roger is a bit of an ass, so they deserve each other! But I found Sophie's acting to be atrocious at first, like many others. She *is* improving but she has a ways to go. It has nothing to do with her appearance or how I pictured her or what I think of the character. The actress was/is not on the same level as many of the others, IMO. Hopefully she learned a lot while working with Tobias. Those scenes and the ones with Joanie showed some great strides and I dearly want to see that continue! 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Squirrely

[WatchrTina]

4 minutes ago, Squirrely said:

How in the hell would Loaghaire and Joanie manage to haul an unconscious Brianna into a wagon (I assume) and up the stairs of that house and into bed?

Weel, that's a good question but if I had to guess I'd wager than Laoghaire has at least one servant in that big house of hers.  In the books there's definitely a servant because she ends up taking up with him (which leads to a very interesting reaction by Jamie when he hears of it.)  I'd just assume that there is a stable boy somewhere who helped get  her up the stairs and/or that she was actually semi-conscious when they found her so she COULD stagger a bit, with help, but she doesn't remember it.

[Quickbeam]

1 hour ago, theschnauzers said:

In the opening production was quite meticulous about the jars and labels for the peanut butter and jelly, as in time appropriate JIF peanut butter and Welch’s grape jelly.

And wax paper!

 

I really love Tobias and was thrilled to see him back. I can’t for the life of me understand why they cast the actor they did for Lizzie. The height alone was really jarring. 

[ruby24]

Oh no, no, no, Lizzie is ALL wrong! Why did they cast a giant?! Isn't Lizzie supposed to be like 12 or something? That actress is going to end up marrying the Beardsley twins? Or maybe they'll just do away with that story altogether. 

[Cdh20]

4 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Having watched the episode again, I love how 20th Century Brianna says to Lizzie's father upon hearing their plight, "Then don't let him have her." LOL! Pretty straight-forward 20th Century thinking.

Also, I think we've witnessed a circular scene. When Claire went through the stones, back to the 1940's, Jamie was entrusting his wife and baby-to-come, to Frank. And, in this episode, we just witnessed Frank handing over Brianna to Jamie, at least in Brianna's mind. He nodded his head as she headed off on a ship to America to her biological father.

Nice catch on that- I was thinking about the significance & I love that!

[fresiaa]

I never liked book Brianna, and I don't like TV Brianna either. But, hey, there are lots of perfectly fine people in real life that I don't like. 

It feels very natural, real life, to me that a main character is not saint or villain for a change.

[fresiaa]

7 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Frank was friends with Rogers adoptive father due to shared research interests long before Claire's adventures through the stones.

I concluded that Frank took Claire to THAT destination in Scotland because he wanted to check up on Little Roger, and the "history thing" was initially a ruse to get close to the reverend and see if the boy was all right. As Frank felt responsible for Jerry's death, and - maybe through his spy job during the war - kept an eye on Roger and his mother.

[Petunia846]

After a day to think about it, I've decided that (while I don't like Frank) the Frank scenes were good and valuable information for the story. The Loaghaire and Joanie scenes however a) went on far too long, b) didn't entirely make sense, and c) took away from what everyone really wanted to see, which was Bree at Lallybroch. Nell and the girl who plays Joanie are lovely actors, but this was not right for the story.

They're saying in the media that they wanted to show the parallel between Frank and Loaghaire, but a) there really isn't one since those relationships were not equal, and b)...who cares? It would have been just as moving (and just as artful writing) to show a contrast between Bree's life in Boston falling apart as Frank and Claire break up and then Bree finding a new family in the past when she arrives at Lallybroch and meets everyone. I know we couldn't get Jenny, but they couldn't get anyone other than Steven Cree? There are some of the cousins we haven't even seen as adults (I think), they could have hired anyone and told me they were Maggie and I'd have believed them.

[IntrovertGal]

Despite the absence of Claire and Jamie, I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed this episode. Well, I liked Brianna's part, I didn't really care about Roger's adventures at sea (but then again I had the same problem during the sea adventures in Voyager / season 3). I agree with others here that Sophie's acting has improved, there were some glimpses of genuine feelings in Brianna in this episode, so well done. The highlight of this episode for me were the father and daughter scenes between Frank and Brianna, which surprised me because I was never a big Frank fan. However, it was nice to see Tobias Menzies (and his superior acting skills) again and he made Frank very sympathetic in this episode and the father/daughter bond was lovely to see. I'm also intrigued by how much Frank actually knew about Claire's time travels but I think CarpeFelis is right about the double whammy of Frank discovering that Claire told the truth and that she would go back to Jamie and eventually die. No wonder Frank was so depressed in that scene!

It was too bad that Brianna couldn't meet her aunt Jenny due to the actress not being available. But at least she got to meet Ian and is now on her way to her parents. I'm really looking forward to Brianna meeting Jamie for the first time and hope it will happen soon (next week?).

Good to know that Laoghaire is still as nuts and evil as ever, LOL. It was crazy how quickly she changed from kind and maternal to revenge-driven lunatic! I mean, yeah, Jamie treated her shabbily but that was years ago, shouldn't she be over it by now?

Edited December 17, 2018 by IntrovertGal

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, IntrovertGal said:

I mean, yeah, Jamie treated her shabbily but that was years ago, shouldn't she be over it by now?

People stay bitter over breakups for YEARS- never mind that Jaime was the guy she always wanted, finally got, and it ended horribly.

Also this is a 18th century woman with a minor child left to raise- having a husband wasn’t just about companionship and partnered sex, your position in society depended on it. Even though they were separated and he was living in the city, she did still have a husband and there was a chance he would come back. Now just a few years later she’s working to keep her and Joanie a float and the alimony payments are late (not because Jaime is a dipshit who wants her to starve, but regardless of the reason she still needs the money). 

Taking out that Laoghaire is a few berries short of a bushel, I can see why she’s still upset.

[nodorothyparker]

If time was the only issue, Claire and Jamie should have gotten over it years ago.  They were separated far longer than they were ever together.  But grief and loss and bitterness too don't always work like that.  Some people bounce back pretty quickly and some just don't.  In Laoghaire's case, Jamie is both the girlish fantasy she "won" in the end and an honest to goodness husband who financially provided for her and gave her status as a respectable married woman.  You can see how in her mind, maybe things weren't great with Jamie off living separately in Edinburgh but there was always the possibility they could still get better with time.  Claire dropping in out of the sky as Marsali put it last season forever crushed that possibility.  And as this episode so adroitly addressed, after Claire and Jamie pranced off to the other side of the world to continue their big epic adventure she was still left there publicly known as a woman abandoned for another woman with a minor child to feed, for which he's not even meeting the terms of their alimony settlement.  

[qtpye]

I am not a book reader but always come over here to read the valuable insights from all the great posts on this thread. Two quick questions:

1. Is the petite and doll like Brianna supposed to look like her giant strapping father? Ian believed her story immediately and gave her money and valuable clothes. Besides the red hair, the actress really looks nothing like the actor who plays Jaimie unless they just think all red headed people automatically look alike.

2. The non book talk thread always has a lot less activity. I wonder if the show is having issues attracting nonbook readers as viewers? I hope this is not the case as this show is usually a very good series. 

[aemom]

19 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Did anyone else else think Brianna was being a dumbass limping along when she was surrounded by trees and could have grabbed a fallen branch to use as a cane? Isn't she supposed to be a mechanical engineer? I'm an engineer and I sure as hell would have thought to do that.

I said the same thing to my husband: "Why hasn't she grabbed a branch to use as a walking stick?"  I am not an engineer,  but was a Girl Guide for many years. ;-)

14 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Oh my gosh, you're right!  Ok, I'm just going to assume that she made and brought several sandwiches :-)

My husband also commented on how the sandwich was cut in the credits, so I said the same thing, that she brought more than one. 

14 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

And speaking of that purse . . . they made a point of having Brianna fall and then have to gather up all the items that spilled out of it.  I kept waiting for that to pay off.  I kept thinking there was something in there that she lost when she fell.  Otherwise -- what was the point of that whole scene?

Maybe just to see what she did pack with her.

14 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Oh and weirdly? I think Roger's ugly culotte pants were in fact period correct. I think they're a style with by seamen of the time.

I also thought they looked weird and paid close attention while he was on the docks. I saw many men wearing the same style, so he did his homework. 

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

In the opening production was quite meticulous about the jars and labels for the peanut butter and jelly, as in time appropriate JIF peanut butter and Welch’s grape jelly.

I noticed that too, but wouldn't Bree have made the sandwiches in Scotland?  Were JIF and Welch's PB&J available in Scotland?

The height thing bothered me about Lizzie too.  Brianna is supposed to be such an unusually tall woman, yet this Lizzie tops her by several inches.  It just doesn't look right.

Whew, good thing Bonnet didn't toss the MacKenzie baby, right, Rog?  (I wonder what would have happened to Roger?)  Rik looks about 10 years younger without the facial hair.

I'll handwave that Bri spent a couple days getting to know Ian and maybe even met some of her cousins.  It's unfortunate the writers had to skirt around Jenny.  Good thing the Murrays held on to Claire's trunk (small as it was) so Bree would have something to wear.  That fur lined coat was fabulous.

I adore Tobias Menzies.  What a treat to have him back briefly.

15 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Claire and Jamie pranced off to the other side of the world to continue their big epic adventure

AND with Marsali and the grandbabies.  A big, sprawling, happy family.  No wonder Laoghaire was jealous.

[aemom]

4 minutes ago, qtpye said:

1. Is the petite and doll like Brianna supposed to look like her giant strapping father? Ian believed her story immediately and gave her money and valuable clothes. Besides the red hair, the actress really looks nothing like the actor who plays Jaimie unless they just think all red headed people automatically look alike.

It's been a long time since I read the book, but in the book, Brianna is very tall and imposing. If memory serves, Jenny is VERY suspicious and doesn't believe Brianna until she pulls out the pearls from Jenny and Jamie's mother that Claire left with her.

Edited December 17, 2018 by AEMom
Typo

[nodorothyparker]

The pearls are confirmation that Claire is Brianna's mother and thus she's a legitimate child of theirs as Jenny surely knows that Jamie gave those pearls to Claire all those years ago.  She very much wants to believe but in the book scene Laoghaire is there shrieking about Brianna either being some kind of supernatural imposter or probably being from some army whore.  Book Brianna is pretty much a female Jamie in height and appearance, to the point that from a distance various people in the neighborhood around Lollybroch thought she was him.  Book William is also supposed to be a dead ringer for Jamie minus the red hair.  But such are the problems when you try to cast a show with actual actors instead of just writing a bunch of lookalike characters.

[qtpye]

26 minutes ago, AEMom said:

It's been a long time since I read the book, but in the book, Brianna is very tall and imposing. If memory serves, Jenny is VERY suspicious and doesn't believe Brianna until she pulls out the pearls from Jenny and Jamie's mother that Claire left with her.

 

14 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The pearls are confirmation that Claire is Brianna's mother and thus she's a legitimate child of theirs as Jenny surely knows that Jamie gave those pearls to Claire all those years ago.  She very much wants to believe but in the book scene Laoghaire is there shrieking about Brianna either being some kind of supernatural imposter or probably being from some army whore.  Book Brianna is pretty much a female Jamie in height and appearance, to the point that from a distance various people in the neighborhood around Lollybroch thought she was him.  Book William is also supposed to be a dead ringer for Jamie minus the red hair.  But such are the problems when you try to cast a show with actual actors instead of just writing a bunch of lookalike characters.

Thank you for the information. I understand the show did not want to waste valuable story time on people not believing Brianna, but it did kind of seem like any pretty red headed lass could have just stepped out of the forest and claimed to be Jaimie’s daughter and Ian would be like “ Sure, here’s a bunch of money”. 

I also realize that show Claire is actually pretty tall as well (no idea about book Claire). I guess it is a casting nightmare to try to find a lady that is the spitting image of the actor who plays Jaimie and still meets the dainty standards of Hollywood beauty. Is book Roger also a giant or is book Brianna just bigger than him...not that there’s anything wrong with that.

[WatchrTina]

10 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Is book Roger also a giant or is book Brianna just bigger than him...not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Book Roger is taller than Brianna but not as tall as Jamie.  (I'm also 6 feet tall so I pay attention to this particular issue.)  It's a good thing Roger IS that tall so that when he and Jamie finally "step outside" and work off some mutual resentment, it's a fair fight.

[AAEBoiler]

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Oh no, no, no, Lizzie is ALL wrong! Why did they cast a giant?! Isn't Lizzie supposed to be like 12 or something?

Yes, I wasn't expecting Brienne of Tarth when she was introduced on camera.

Why are people assuming that when Frank is sees the old article that a "Jamie Fraser and his wife" dies in a fire in North Carolina that he knows that it was Claire? It doesn't mention Claire by name, does it?

Finally, why doesn't engineer Brianna grab a walking stick or fashion some sort of crutch when she's walking through the forest? I would think that would help to take some pressure off of that ankle.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, AAEBoiler said:

Yes, I wasn't expecting Brienne of Tarth when she was introduced on camera.

Why are people assuming that when Frank is sees the old article that a "Jamie Fraser and his wife" dies in a fire in North Carolina that he knows that it was Claire? It doesn't mention Claire by name, does it?

Finally, why doesn't engineer Brianna grab a walking stick or fashion some sort of crutch when she's walking through the forest? I would think that would help to take some pressure off of that ankle.

It does mention Claire by name and states that she’s a healer, so Frank had reason to conclude it was his Claire. 

[fresiaa]

27 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I guess it is a casting nightmare to try to find a lady that is the spitting image of the actor who plays Jaimie and still meets the dainty standards of Hollywood beauty. 

Well, I don't think she is much of an actrice. Main problem is not that she is not tall, grumpy, pigheaded and scary with blazing red hair, it is that she is "cute" and "dainty". Bleh.

But she rocks that fur though.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I noticed that too, but wouldn't Bree have made the sandwiches in Scotland?  Were JIF and Welch's PB&J available in Scotland?

The sandwich scene was a part of a flashback to her childhood. Those were Claire’s hands making the sandwich. 

[WatchrTina]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

It does mention Claire by name and states that she’s a healer, so Frank had reason to conclude it was his Claire. 

I just re-read the obituary (there's a link to it in one of the postings above) and it does specifically name Claire as the wife of James MacKenzie Fraser.  I could not see any reference to her being a healer though.

 

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

The sandwich scene was a part of a flashback to her childhood. Those were Claire’s hands making the sandwich. 

Oooh, good catch.  I like that explanation.

Edited December 17, 2018 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

The question I'm pondering considering Bree's great walkabout is how did she not realize Inverness is a port city?  We're supposed to think the stones are close enough to it to be a short cab or car trip away and she's been to both several times.  Yet there she is trekking across greater Scotland on foot toward some port she has circled on a map much farther south, which is also what she tells Laoghaire.  I think we're to think Roger came out the other side of the stones and immediately headed straight back to Inverness where he met up with Stephen Bonnet while looking for passage.  At least that's how book Roger did it.

Yes, I realize the walk is the great walk of contrivance so she can accidentally "bump into" Laoghaire because otherwise in the very pared down version of visiting Lallybroch we got, which apparently never even occurred to show Bree to try, there's no real reason for Bree's and Laoghaire's paths to cross at all.

[AAEBoiler]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

It does mention Claire by name

Ok, I didn't remember seeing that in the printed "obituary". Thanks!

[Cdh20]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 6:04 AM, qtpye said:

I am not a book reader but always come over here to read the valuable insights from all the great posts on this thread. Two quick questions:

1. Is the petite and doll like Brianna supposed to look like her giant strapping father? Ian believed her story immediately and gave her money and valuable clothes. Besides the red hair, the actress really looks nothing like the actor who plays Jaimie unless they just think all red headed people automatically look alike.

2. The non book talk thread always has a lot less activity. I wonder if the show is having issues attracting nonbook readers as viewers? I hope this is not the case as this show is usually a very good series.

#2. I am going to answer this from my real life- most of the people I know watching are not book readers!  Partly because I recommended it! I will say that the ones who started from the get-go were probably the book readers- they were so excited to see a fave book made!

I haven't read past Voyager, so I post over there too, because it's all new to me, but I find it's hard not to be spoiled, if you are online looking up Outlander things!

#1. Bri & WIllie are supposed to look just like Jamie-something they haven't really been able to accomplish with casting.  (This has long been addressed here, sorry)

Edited December 22, 2018 by Cdh20

[Nidratime]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Book Roger is taller than Brianna but not as tall as Jamie.  (I'm also 6 feet tall so I pay attention to this particular issue.)  It's a good thing Roger IS that tall so that when he and Jamie finally "step outside" and work off some mutual resentment, it's a fair fight.

Not even Sam is as tall as Jamie purportedly is, I'm guessing. The issue of actors not being tall enough or short enough is never going to be resolved in an adaptation of the books, let alone every single other characteristic, so....

Edited December 17, 2018 by Nidratime

[Atlanta]

They also realize that Brianna has to be Jamie's since she looks just like Ellen MacKenzie Fraser (Brianna's middle name is Ellen). She's a feminine and more delicate version of JAMMF.

Quote

1. Is the petite and doll like Brianna supposed to look like her giant strapping father? Ian believed her story immediately and gave her money and valuable clothes. Besides the red hair, the actress really looks nothing like the actor who plays Jaimie unless they just think all red headed people automatically look alike.

I have some redheads in my family on my mom's side (came over from Great Britain to Virginia & NC like many of the book characters) and though I'm not a redhead, it's a common complaint that they do not all look alike. LOL

IIRC, in the book Roger has Geillis's green eyes, has black hair, and is 6'3", Jamie is 6'4", and Brianna has red hair, blue eyes, and is just under 6'.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Atlanta

[seahag50]

My mom was a total redhead...green eyes fair skin...I look just like her but...…...I have dark sallow skin like my dad..jewish...german...white blue eyes and very very dark curly hair...….but it you put my pic next to hers at same age you can not tell us apart......so yep we can look the same just a different color

[theschnauzers]

Regarding Brianna and Old Ian. IIRC, in season 3 after Claire and Jamie were reunited and Young Ian was kidnapped, I recall a scene with Jamie, Claire, Ian and Jenny at Lollybroch where Ian, Jenny and Claire were reunited and I’m pretty sure Brianna or at least the fact of her existence was mentioned. So it wouldn’t surprise me that Ian most likely figured out who Brianna was when he was visiting  Langhaire before Joanie took her to Lollybroch and I presume Joanie would have been to Lollybroch before she took Brianna there.

We weren’t shown what went on before Ian gave Brianna the money and the trunk of Claire’s clothes, but we can assume she was there long enough to be acquainted and gain information to help find Jamie and Claire once she reach North Carolina.

[Biggie B]

Here's a nit-pick of mine for this episode:

I didn't for a minute believe that little Joan could - by herself - get that horse hitched up to the wagon fast enough to get Brianna away in time before her mother returned. I just didn't buy that for a moment. Even if Joan was used to doing that chore by herself, it is no small thing to accomplish quickly, especially under such great pressure. And it's unlikely that Brianna could've offered much assistance, I imagine she's had little to no experience in harnessing a horse and getting it all set to pull a wagon. I still loved that Joan helped Brianna escape, but, what sort of hell did Joan catch from her mother upon returning home? Surely Leghair would've figured out what happened. 

It's been so long since I read the books, but I remember frequent mention of Brianna having Jamie's very noticeable cat-eyes. That's never been mentioned on the series, and I would guess it's because the actor who plays Jamie doesn't have slanted, cat-like eyes, nor does the actress who plays Brianna. But it was a big deal in the books, as I recall. 

Overall, I enjoyed the episode. I really liked seeing Frank again, as the actor is truly excellent. That moment when Brianna sees Frank on the dock, and he gives her what seemed like an approving "Go on, then" sort of look was touching. Frank loved Brianna fully and unconditionally. Whatever other shitty things he did, at least he did right by her. I even liked horrible Captain Bonnet. He's vile and I think the actor's doing a great job conveying that to us viewers. 

[Cdh20]

27 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

Regarding Brianna and Old Ian. IIRC, in season 3 after Claire and Jamie were reunited and Young Ian was kidnapped, I recall a scene with Jamie, Claire, Ian and Jenny at Lollybroch where Ian, Jenny and Claire were reunited and I’m pretty sure Brianna or at least the fact of her existence was mentioned. So it wouldn’t surprise me that Ian most likely figured out who Brianna was when he was visiting  Langhaire before Joanie took her to Lollybroch and I presume Joanie would have been to Lollybroch before she took Brianna there.

We weren’t shown what went on before Ian gave Brianna the money and the trunk of Claire’s clothes, but we can assume she was there long enough to be acquainted and gain information to help find Jamie and Claire once she reach North Carolina.

In the show, Jamie & Claire did not tell Jenny & Ian they had a daughter. 

14 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

I even liked horrible Captain Bonnet. He's vile and I think the actor's doing a great job conveying that to us viewers.

They have a magic hand with casting! 

[nodorothyparker]

Ian has a line in this episode that he figures Jamie must have had his reasons for never mentioning Brianna's existence.  He also has a line to that effect in the book because hey, what else is he going to say at that point?  Show Ian tells Brianna Jocasta's name and that of River Run, saying that she will surely know more specifically how to find Jaime and Claire from there.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Show Ian tells Brianna Jocasta's name and that of River Run, saying that she will surely know more specifically how to find Jaime and Claire from there.

Makes sense since River Run is an established plantation/estate that many people will know while Jamie and Claire's cabin is down by the creek, overlooking the mountains, near where the Indian's ghost hangs out.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I didn't for a minute believe that little Joan could - by herself - get that horse hitched up to the wagon fast enough to get Brianna away in time before her mother returned. I just didn't buy that for a moment. Even if Joan was used to doing that chore by herself, it is no small thing to accomplish quickly, especially under such great pressure. And it's unlikely that Brianna could've offered much assistance, I imagine she's had little to no experience in harnessing a horse and getting it all set to pull a wagon. I still loved that Joan helped Brianna escape, but, what sort of hell did Joan catch from her mother upon returning home? Surely Leghair would've figured out what happened. 

I thought they seemed a little too casual and relaxed riding up to Lallybroch as well. After breaking her out of her room I expected the next scene to be the two of them running away - or at least Brianna running away - accompanied by tense music. Not just clippety-clopping up a lazy road all relaxed and stuff.

[mrsjoe]

23 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I took Roger shaving off his beard as a nod to having seen historical portraits from the time period and noting that beards weren't considered fashionable, even though plenty of men did wear them.  

I figured Roger would be practical and shaved it to reduce chances of beard lice in addition to fashions at the time.

 

22 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

The timeline in this episode is pretty confusing but it seems clear that Frank's accident happens right after that scene in the car where he tells Brianna about the divorce.  What's not clear is how much time passed between Frank's death and the earlier scones-and-a-hangover scene in Frank's office, which we all now suspect is the direct result of Frank learning the truth about Claire going back to Jamie.  I suppose we COULD assume that there was a good stretch of time between those two scenes and that in that stretch of time Frank convinces Brianna to join him in taking up the sport of skeet shooting as a father-daughter bonding thing.

Yeah, the whole question of what Frank knew and when he knew it is one of the things that is the least clear to me from the books. 

Right. That’s what I was thinking. It always seemed like Frank trained Brianna on all those skills like shooting, hunting, etc from the time she was a child, so the timeline doesn’t add up.

7 hours ago, qtpye said:

I am not a book reader but always come over here to read the valuable insights from all the great posts on this thread. Two quick questions:

1. Is the petite and doll like Brianna supposed to look like her giant strapping father? Ian believed her story immediately and gave her money and valuable clothes. Besides the red hair, the actress really looks nothing like the actor who plays Jaimie unless they just think all red headed people automatically look alike.

2. The non book talk thread always has a lot less activity. I wonder if the show is having issues attracting nonbook readers as viewers? I hope this is not the case as this show is usually a very good series. 

I thought it was telling that Ian says she has her mother’s eyes, as if to acknowledge no one would believe it if they said Brianna looked just like Jamie.

7 hours ago, AEMom said:

It's been a long time since I read the book, but in the book, Brianna is very tall and imposing. If memory serves, Jenny is VERY suspicious and doesn't believe Brianna until she pulls out the pearls from Jenny and Jamie's mother that Claire left with her.

In the book, Everyone, including Jenny, believe her right away even without the pearls because she looks just like Jamie and is clearly built like him. Jenny even figures it out with no mention of who brianna could be. It’s only Laighoire who doubts her, so it’s interesting that Laighoire believes her immediately in the tv show, but then she says she’s Claire daughter first, not Jamie’s. 

I’m not sure what to make of the shifts in Laighoire’s personality. Seems odd that someone who attempted murder previously would have such a generous nature, but maybe part of that is her hatred of most men leading her to assume Brianna has been wronged by a man, kicking in her generous side.

[Nidratime]

Quote

I thought they seemed a little too casual and relaxed riding up to Lallybroch as well. After breaking her out of her room I expected the next scene to be the two of them running away - or at least Brianna running away - accompanied by tense music. Not just clippety-clopping up a lazy road all relaxed and stuff.

Well, we didn't see the initial break-out so presumably they did make a dash for it. 

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, mrsjoe said:

Seems odd that someone who attempted murder previously would have such a generous nature, but maybe part of that is her hatred of most men leading her to assume Brianna has been wronged by a man, kicking in her generous side.

Laoghaire is a a few berries short of a bushel, but she attempted to murder people who she felt wronged her in some way (or stood in the way of getting what she wanted)- she isn’t a sociopath. She doesn’t hurt people for shits and giggles.  She’s very loving towards her kids, and I can believe she’d be generous towards a stranger found on the side of the road. 

 

The interesting thing about her is that while you can understand her emotions about a particular situation, her reactions are WAY outside the bounds of “normal person”- I’ve observed many mentally unbalanced people are this way. In the 21st century Laoghaire May have been a completely different person on the right meds and some therapy. 

[WatchrTina]

5 hours ago, Biggie B said:

I didn't for a minute believe that little Joan could - by herself - get that horse hitched up to the wagon fast enough to get Brianna away in time before her mother returned.

I speculated earlier that there may have been a hired hand around the house.  Someone had to help them get Brianna up those stairs and into that bedroom.  So I'll just fan-wank that Laoghaire rode off on a horse to talk to her brother about bringing the law down on Brianna (wasn't there a brother who got involved on Laoghaire's behalf in the books? Or maybe an uncle?) Anyway, I assume Laoghaire road off in a huff and then Joanie told the hired hand to hitch the wagon for her.  It's doubtful that he had any idea of the drama going on in the house and as a servant he's probably used to taking orders from Joan -- especially if she claims they come from her Ma.

[Cdh20]

I think Laoghaire should downsize instead of whining about alimony, or get another husband! 

[Atlanta]

Can't remember which character said it in the book (IIRC in the show Murtagh says it), but Leghair will still be an immature girl (not a woman) even when she's 50.