S14.E09 : The Spear

[strippedhalo]

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I thought Dean came up with the original plan and organized who would be going with who?

He did. I think they acknowledged Leader!Sam with Garth and the rest of the off-screen hunters, but Dean was the clear and unquestioned leader of the core four.

[S Cook Productions]

19 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

He did. I think they acknowledged Leader!Sam with Garth and the rest of the off-screen hunters, but Dean was the clear and unquestioned leader of the core four.

I thought so too. He’s like, “let’s go,” and they did. Even Cas who has followed and lead armies for centuries always follows Dean’s lead- usually without question. Credit to Dean’s natural leadership. :)

[Pondlass1]

How many episodes before the 300th?  How long have we got?

Thing is - now that we have Michael/Dean back again what will they have him do?  I hope they don't waste Jensen's talents by having him stand about looking evil and stunning and just talking and talking about his dire plans.  Demon Dean at least got to kill Lester and chase Sammy with a hammer. MoC Dean killed a Stein kid in cold blood. 

I'm a passive person in real life, however I'm fervently hoping consumption Jack explodes when Michael snaps those fingers thus causing Sam & Cas to yell 'Look what you've done to OUR KID!'. And Michael will smile one of those FU Dean smiles.  But, of course, we all know the snapped fingers will only result in Michael disappearing from the room.  Not much of a cliffhanger.

Michael still has Dean along for the ride, he obviously doesn't know it, but Dean's there.  Nobody puts Dean in the corner.

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, Bergamot said:

was "squirming" too much -- I guess Dean was so much trouble that Michael could not properly "digest" him -- but he always intended to get him back. And that makes me happy. Even though I know it won't last long enough.

I loved the body language and cadence Jensen used when Michael was describing how Dean "squirmed too much" with the little shoulder waggle. It was both creepy and one of those light comic touches that Jensen is so adept and thoughtful about with his acting. I loved how he mocked them for not taking the step to check on whether Michael fully left because let's be real, everyone watching asked that same question.

Edited December 14, 2018 by catrox14
because mobile posting is the pits

[Binns]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I, too, thought that Michael`s plan was to break Dean by seemingly granting him freedom and close to victory. I mean, he was apparently annoyed and bothered by Dean trying to resist him, that Dean was fighting towards the goal of getting back home. So he unexpectedly grants him that goal, lets him return to family and friends, lets some time pass so Dean feels more like himself and more in charge. Then he even lets Dean get an effective weapon, almost taste victory and then, and only then, he repossesses him. At first they would break anyone`s spirit. 

Now I have no doubt Dean will be back to fighting him by the next episode so Michael underestimated his fighting spirit. But as plans go, this wasn`t a bad one.

I feel like Michael is VASTLY underestimating Dean and that will be his comeuppance. Dean might get knocked back a little bit but he’ll come back roaring. 

 

Aside...how amazing was Jensen showing ua what it was like for Dean to be fighting him...the little wriggles and facial expressions....

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But, of course, we all know the snapped fingers will only result in Michael disappearing from the room.  Not much of a cliffhanger.

I honestly think he will just snap himself into a snazzy suit. They were just taking the piss out of everyone with pulling a Thanos ending. I`m sure they consider it a cool cliffhanger that, because it evokes a mega-popular movie, people will just love. Worrying that any continuation is likely gonna be a letdown a) comes later or b) not at all. I mean, the actual MCU probably has to worry about the continuation being a letdown since it is easier to deliver a great set-up than to stick the landing. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I don't think Dean was broken at the moment Michael took him back. I think he is now broken inside though because Michael gave him freedom and Dean thought it was over. To be controlled again would be debilitating. And that was the point.

 

It isn't the best writing but I understand why Jensen couldn't be Michael for 9 episodes. It would hurt the show because a lot of fans would revolt. So they are trying to sprinkle a little in without long stretches of him being gone. The 300th isn't until 13th so we have several more episodes before that.

 

It appears in the preview that the angel cuffs are on Michael, which is how they get him back to the bunker. That should be fun. Reminiscent of capturing Demon Dean and trying to get him out. 

 

The last 10 minutes was amazing and the rest was decent. I have to admit that Dean fumbling with the spear in one scene then wielding it like a kung fu master in the next scene didn't work for me. The comedy aspect should have been left out. 

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just wish they didnt have Dean lie to get the spear back. Now, not only will not!Kaia be pissed her weapon is broken, she'll be justifiably angry at him. Sure, desperate times and all that, but we know Dean could've convinced her without lying. Guaranteed there will be more dressing down of his character (both senses of the word) when Teenage Mutant Ninja Sue returns.

Maybe they could've spent less time letting random werepire Michael speechify to random Michael!Monsters and shown him breaking Dean.

And sorry, these 'nods' to other shows and movies are just too frequent not to feel more like lazy ripoffs than homages.

I don't understand why anyone cares if she was lied to(I mean I do know the show will hold it over Dean but...).  Kaia Sue is a murderer, she murdered our world's Kaia and she was going to kill Claire.  She has no redeeming qualities, zero, zilch, none.  Who cares if they lied to her to get the spear, it's the least she deserves for what she has done.

[Pondlass1]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I honestly think he will just snap himself into a snazzy suit.

(*I'm hoping for a snug t-shirt and those pants Jensen poured himself into for the recent Jax convention.)

Michael doesn't seem like a flannel and denim type of guy.  So even if the SL short-lived and weak, at least we'll get to see Jensen spiffed up.  He cleans up so good.

[Casseiopeia]

wrong thread

Edited December 14, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[sarthaz]

I'm glad they got our characters to this point, but it took them all being morons for 57 minutes to get there. Forget Michael wearing Dean to the prom. What's concerning is Dabb inhabiting him (and Sam and Cas). They're all idiots now.

[BabySpinach]

Dean's face is NEVER this blank or cold. He's always expressing some thought or emotion, even when there are no words for him to say. This is what truly and comprehensively differentiates him from Michael. So awesome! 

[tennisgurl]

Oh Dean. You should have aimed for the head. 

That was a freaking epic ending, I am actually fully on board with seeing where the story goes from here! I mean, its kind of what I expected to happen (Michael wouldn't just leave Dean after everything he went through to get him) but I didnt see it happening in this exact way, and the resolution was just what I wanted. The return of Michael Dean is going to be epic! Or, at least, I REALLY hope that it will be. We were promised Michael Dean, and now we might actually get more than two minutes of him. I loved Michael basically laughing at the guys for not questioning more about why he left Dean in the first place, because, yeah, thats pretty much what everyone has been thinking this whole time. 

So Jack comes back from the dead, and is already in damsel position again. I like Jack fine as a character, but the show constantly pushing him as this Big Important Person, who is practically more plot device than character (how many times will the Winchesters have to rescue him?) is such a massive pain, and takes away from the time that we could have with other characters. I mean, we get several Jack centric episodes, or with jack getting major subplots, while we get about three seconds of the much hyped Michael Dean, and Cas gets a couple of subplots if he is lucky. Its just too much too fast. 

Hi Garth, nice to see you! Glad that he survived I hope that he comes out of this alright, it was actually a pretty good plan to have him come back for this, I hope it all works out. I wonder if him having some of Michael's grace will come back to help out at some point. And Ketch came by for a visit too! Hi Ketch! For as much as I've complained about the billions of pointless hunters this season, I do appreciate them bringing back some older characters this season, and actually finding good uses for them, and not bringing them back just to make them evil or kill them off pointlessly. At least, so far. 

So looks like Mary never got around to answering her sons desperate begging for a three second phone call, or bothered to call or visit to check on Jack or her kids, after his death and resurrection, as she apparently cared about Jack so much at some point. Keep earning that Mother of the Year award, Mary! 

So Cas is basically like "I should be safe from the Darkness, because its waiting for me to be happy, and I can never be happy! Loophole!" which is just super depressing, in several levels. I get why he doesent want to tell Sam and Dean what happened right now with so much going on, but I hope he tells them the truth before that check gets cashed. 

Oh great, Kaia is back, and still as ridiculously overpowered as always. Of course the only way to stop her is to lie to her, no way could Dean fight her, or just convince her to let him power the stupid thing. And she still only has the same stupid hood, which I think the show thinks is badass, but mostly just looks like a crappy Death Eater cosplay from a Harry Potter fan convention. And now that Dean lied to her, we can look forward to amazing wonderful uber badass Kaia coming back to kick everyone's asses with riotous fury, lecturing everyone on what an awful person Dean is, while Dean can only look sad and agree. Ugggggg.

Jensen as Michael is already awesome, and I cant wait to see more of him. I guess I cant say I wanted to spend a whole season without Dean, but I really hope we get a bit more of Michael Dean in the next batch of episodes. Just the way that he changes his body language, especially when he kind of wiggled around talking about how Dean was fighting against him, was just so fascinating. I think that if Michael wanted to make Dean fight harder, he would have killed or hurt Deans people, as that would have pissed him off, and made him all full of rightful revenge, but by proving that he was never really free, and there is no escape from him? Thats a pretty good way to fill him with despair, and make him just shut up and go along for the ride. I dont think that will actually happen, as there is no way that Dean will EVER give up, but I can see why he came up with this plan, as its pretty diabolical. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

The episode was boring and predictable.  Michael is now back in Dean, no surprise there.  I really would hope they would get past this Michael thing, it has gone on far too long.

It's had about 20 minutes in the first 8 episodes. Jack coughing had more time.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Should the brothers have known that?  Absolutely yes.   If the brothers had been thinking ahead, they would have had Sam in control of the spear all along.  Especially when they didn't know why Michael had left Dean's body in the first place.

This is why I believe that Dean's earlier speech was a set up for failure.

[SueB]

So Dean's happy place is to run a dive bar? 

 

As Dean was being taken over, it flashed to the bar multiple times and ended with him there. I like how the beer is "Texas Star."

 

 

This bar set is definitely new.  Although the set appears to be the same one Gabriel used to trap Lucifer at the end of last year.  But I think this is where Michael "stashed" Dean.  

Interesting choice.  But who's the drunk?

[BabySpinach]

Some additional thoughts, since I'm still caught up in the buzz...

Michael isn't a half-bad villain, certainly leagues better than Colonel McShittySouthernDrawl and s11-onwards Lucifer. The latter was no more than a toddler throwing a tantrum who got by on dumb luck and even dumber surrounding characters. He was just flinging poop at the walls, breaking daddy's toys, and being an overall petty, sadistic, entitled little shit.

Michael has a clear goal, subtle methods, and outmaneuvers his enemies with strategy and manipulation. His plan to "break" Dean is both diabolical and deeply personal. He has an interesting but understandable outlook on his (and Jack's) place in the universe. He doesn't hurt/kill people for no reason, nor whine about daddy not paying enough attention to him. He is utterly certain about who he is and what he is meant to do. It's refreshing to not have to put up with pathetic, clearly over-compensating Big Bads for once.

This was the first time we've seen Dean fight with a spear, so yay for new things! Dean fumbling it and then using it flawlessly later on makes a kind of sense, if you squint a bit. He could be adept at fighting with a spear but maybe sucks at the fancy twirls and flourishes because they don't serve a function and he's never needed to learn them. Take note, Kaia... 

I found the conversation between Michael and Jack to be surprisingly engaging, because the dialogue was specifically tailored to the circumstances surrounding these two characters. That's the kind of substance I want between Dean and Michael. I want them to establish a unique dynamic, the more personal the better. I want to learn things about both of them, and see if/how their principles and perspectives affect each other. That'd sure be nice, wouldn't it?

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I honestly think he will just snap himself into a snazzy suit. They were just taking the piss out of everyone with pulling a Thanos ending. I`m sure they consider it a cool cliffhanger that, because it evokes a mega-popular movie, people will just love. Worrying that any continuation is likely gonna be a letdown a) comes later or b) not at all. I mean, the actual MCU probably has to worry about the continuation being a letdown since it is easier to deliver a great set-up than to stick the landing. 

Hee... A la Sweet from "Once More With Feeling" (Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode).

But really even though I loved Avengers: Infinity War, when Dean snapped his fingers that wasn't the first reference that popped into my head. I don't know why, but the first reference that popped into my head was Dream Demon Dean from "Dream a Little Dream of Me" when he snapped his fingers at the end of the episode, probably because then, too, the screen went black.

[sarthaz]

Angels snapping will always make me think of Assbutt's brother exploding Cas.

[devlin]

I just can’t get over in that last scene how there is no trace of dean. He just doesn’t feel like dean. It’s almost as if Jensen has an ability to completely transform himself. 

[trudysmom]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And they know damn well what they are doing.

Well...yes and no.  I refuse to give them credit for knowing how to keep me coming back, that goes to the characters they keep jerking around.  How to really tell this compelling story, not rush through it, give it the time, tension and suspense it deserves, then really pull it out in the end with a WOW, no I have zero faith they can do that. 

 

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe they could've spent less time letting random werepire Michael speechify to random Michael!Monsters and shown him breaking Dean.

You took the words straight outta my mouth.  

[Casseiopeia]

So we just spent 9 episodes (almost half the season) to get back to where we were in the premiere.  Michael is possessing Dean still creating/activating his monster army, Jack is still human-ish (but currently not dying because of some soul slicing spell), Sam is still Chief (and still getting knocked out), Castiel is still getting beat up (although he was trying to distract Were-Michael)...about the only progression in the season was that Kaia's magic stick is now broken and in some future episode Castiel is heading back to S13.  The plot seemed to only move about an inch or two.  At least to me.

Shockingly I am kind of wanting to get back to Nick.  At least his story was progressing.

[sino8r]

What a flaming turd this season has been. So angel possession has no rules now? Michael isn't a demon. Demons don't need permission. Angels do. Even Lucifer needed it. I could see a demon leaving a weakness to reinhabit a vessel but not an angel. They are still built a certain way. Just because Dean said yes once doesn't leave an open door to reinhabit anytime he wishes. This has been shown before with Gladarel. It can not be done.  But these idiot show runners have no rules or don't remember their own lore. Every bit of angel lore since season 4 is totally pointless now. This is no more than a crappy supernatural soap opera like the rest of the stuff on the CW. Despite what some of y'all think, Jack is only interesting thing on this show in the past couple of seasons and he's been neutered as well. It's no different than what they've done with Castel or making angels less powerful or more so to suit the particular storyline. I get some of y'all really love to see Jensen and Jared take on different roles in the show but this was predictable and lame. And then forcing a failed spinoff to be part of the lore is stupid as well. Plus, it's killed all momentum and restarted the season. 

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, sino8r said:

What a flaming turd this season has been. So angel possession has no rules now? Michael isn't a demon. Demons don't need permission. Angels do. Even Lucifer needed it. I could see a demon leaving a weakness to reinhabit a vessel but not an angel. They are still built a certain way. Just because Dean said yes once doesn't leave an open door to reinhabit anytime he wishes. This has been shown before with Gladarel. It can not be done.  But these idiot show runners have no rules or don't remember their own lore. Every bit of angel lore since season 4 is totally pointless now. This is no more than a crappy supernatural soap opera like the rest of the stuff on the CW. Despite what some of y'all think, Jack is only interesting thing on this show in the past couple of seasons and he's been neutered as well. It's no different than what they've done with Castel or making angels less powerful or more so to suit the particular storyline. I get some of y'all really love to see Jensen and Jared take on different roles in the show but this was predictable and lame. And then forcing a failed spinoff to be part of the lore is stupid as well. Plus, it's killed all momentum and restarted the season. 

My headcanon is that it's possible because it's AU Michael and maybe in his world the rules are different.

[devlin]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon is that it's possible because it's AU Michael and maybe in his world the rules are different.

And Michael did say he owned dean and that he had left the door open a crack. And if nick can still be alive despite being stabbed and shot on multiple occasions, I am more than happy to handwave this 

[ZennyKenny]

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

That doesn't make it any less boring and predictable. 

Was there any doubt that Michael was going to end up back in Dean's body?  No. 

Should the brothers have known that?  Absolutely yes.   If the brothers had been thinking ahead, they would have had Sam in control of the spear all along.  Especially when they didn't know why Michael had left Dean's body in the first place.

True! I hate it when the writers have the brothers ignore obvious trains of thought just to serve the pathetic excuse for a plot twist. It''s no different from when Sam was receiving visions of Hell and no one speculated the obvious possibility that they were coming from Lucifer. Stop making our boys look dumb!

[catrox14]

[mertensia]

@SueB, that was totally a shout-out to Die Hard! So much of this was!  Hitomi Plaza for Nakatomi Plaza. A dead guy in the elevator shaft. Checking out the lobby security monitors. Garth/Sam for John/Al, etc., etc.  Except for Jingle Bell Rock. That's from Lethal Weapon.

As I thought, Michael left a back door in Dean.

[Bergamot]

On 12/14/2018 at 2:30 AM, BabySpinach said:

Ketch was surprisingly adorable in his brief appearance. He was so proud of himself for mailing the egg to them, d'aww.  

Not just any mail -- he paid extra! Certified Priority Express! Hee! Sadly, I think one reason I found that funny is not just because of the actor's good comedic timing with his lines, but also because I am still hoping that those presents I ordered online are going to get here in time for Christmas. Yes, if the fate of the world depended on the mail, we would all be in trouble!

 

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Couldn`t care less about Kaia!Sue. I mean, she had to know that unexpected things can happen in battle so she had to at least entertain the possibility that she would not be seeing it again. And who knows, by the time it becomes relevant, Jack might be fully-powered again.

Yes, I don't care that Dean lied to Kaia, but it does still bug me. Not because I don't want to have Dean shown doing something wrong, but because if he does, I want it to be part of his story, not just Dean being used as a prop for a character like Kaia. When Dean lied to Sam about John's last words, it was an important part of his story, and the motivations and implications for his character were examined. But Dean lying here to Kaia, just like the scene of Dean pointing a gun at original Kaia, (which was again shown taken out of context in the previouslies,) is not really about Dean or his character. It is about using Dean as a villain to create extra drama and sympathy points for the writer's precious pet character. The show should be using Kaia to tell Dean's story, not using Dean to tell her story, because this is not her show.

Of course, as Aeryn points out, it is a moot point anyway, because it has been acknowledged right from the start that Jack's grace is going to regenerate itself. Michael himself just confirmed this, so I expect the process to start sometime in the next few episodes. It is ironic because if this season has been about anything, it has been about Jack's story, about Jack learning to be human without his grace, and about Jack getting sick without his grace, and the fact that it is going to be just rolled back makes all the drama seem like much ado about nothing.

[SueB]

11 hours ago, sino8r said:

What a flaming turd this season has been. So angel possession has no rules now? Michael isn't a demon. Demons don't need permission. Angels do. Even Lucifer needed it. I could see a demon leaving a weakness to reinhabit a vessel but not an angel. They are still built a certain way. Just because Dean said yes once doesn't leave an open door to reinhabit anytime he wishes. This has been shown before with Gladarel. It can not be done.  But these idiot show runners have no rules or don't remember their own lore. Every bit of angel lore since season 4 is totally pointless now. This is no more than a crappy supernatural soap opera like the rest of the stuff on the CW. Despite what some of y'all think, Jack is only interesting thing on this show in the past couple of seasons and he's been neutered as well. It's no different than what they've done with Castel or making angels less powerful or more so to suit the particular storyline. I get some of y'all really love to see Jensen and Jared take on different roles in the show but this was predictable and lame. And then forcing a failed spinoff to be part of the lore is stupid as well. Plus, it's killed all momentum and restarted the season. 

Historically true (bolded) but we've seen this moment foreshadowed for a LONG time:
- AUMichael had the ability to 'get inside people's heads' (S13 -- an ability that OUR Universe Angels never demonstrated with the same level of control)
- AUMichael told Dean "I own you" when they were having the argument in the mirror
- The ghoul saw AUMichael's presence IN Dean when he said "YOU!"
- Dean started fuzzing out two episodes ago when Jack was mentioned and when the initial solution (the shaman) to Jack's illness was devised
- We know AUMichael was listening in (i.e. STILL connected to Dean) because it's likely that was AUMichael's grace that Jack took in (and nearly killed him)**

So, what does this do to the historically true lore:
- It says AUMichael is a 'no take backs' kinda guy.  You say 'yes' once and he has the ability to leave a part of himself behind in order to re-enter the person.
- It also says that since squirmy Dean WAS a problem for AUMichael, there are SOME rules that still apply.  If Dean can take control, he may be able to cast him out.  In 14.2 AUMichael 'left' of his own accord. Now it would appear that he left more that residual grace behind.  He left enough to establish a toehold on Dean that would allow him to waltz back in.  

In sum:
- Perhaps it's the AU aspect.  Perhaps it's the power of Michael as the most powerful Archangel.  Or maybe a combo of both.  But THIS AUMichael was able to "leave the door open" once Dean gave his initial yes.  It doesn't throw out the old lore, it expands it IMO.

**Shady Russian was definitely working for Michael.  See comments in that thread. 

[mertensia]

I wonder if the difference is simpler than that. Sam expelled Gadreel. Michael left on his own. He was never expelled.

Also, of course, he seems to have left a backdoor on Dean.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, mertensia said:

I wonder if the difference is simpler than that. Sam expelled Gadreel. Michael left on his own. He was never expelled.

Also, of course, he seems to have left a backdoor on Dean.

Except Dean did expel him.  He told him in no uncertain terms to get out.  So if Michael left, permission had been rescinded.

[Pondlass1]

We don't get the promo at the end of the episode in Canada - or not on the channel I watch anyway (Space).  But it seems odd that they end on the ominous finger snap cliffhanger, only to reveal seconds later in the promo that everyone's ok and Michael has changed outfits.

It's like the movie trailers that tell you the whole story plus ending.  No one has a clue about suspense any more; and  episodes are crammed with exposition and spoon fed plot.  If you watch the early episodes there's  more thinking needed on the part of the viewer.  Even that Titanic episode didn't explain what was going on until half way in.  Dean driving a different car, Bobby married to Ellen... what the heck's going on...?? Dabb would have it all explained in the first two minutes. He thinks we're all ten!

[mertensia]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Except Dean did expel him.  He told him in no uncertain terms to get out.  So if Michael left, permission had been rescinded.

But it wasn't successful. 

[ILoveReading]

Just now, mertensia said:

But it wasn't successful. 

Regardless, permission was revoked.  Michael shouldn't have been able to get back in once he left.

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Regardless, permission was revoked.  Michael shouldn't have been able to get back in once he left.

It would have made more sense for them to have had Michael so powerful that he could leave part of himself in Dean and still be able to possess someone else.  I still go with it being different rules for possession because AU reasons. It would also explain why Michael was able to take over Earth - 2 like he did. 

[Lemuria]

I think there’s probably a difference Between archangels and ordinary angels. Sam was not able to kick Lucifer out (don’t get me started on that whole taking control forever business because I didn’t buy it then and I’m not buying it now). And with Gadreel—and I could be remembering it incorrectly—didn’t  Sam have to shove/toss Gadreel out? I don’t think just saying “I revoke permission” was enough. 

 

Michael was never thrown out; he left. Now, maybe he did that to avoid being thrown out, or it may be that you can’t do that to an archangel.  The thing is, he never left completely – – that’s what this episode told us (and which many of us already suspected) – – and since his ties to Dean were never actually severed, he could simply slip back in. 

[DeeDee79]

18 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I think there’s probably a difference Between archangels and ordinary angels. Sam was not able to kick Lucifer out (don’t get me started on that whole taking control forever business because I didn’t buy it then and I’m not buying it now). And with Gadreel—and I could be remembering it incorrectly—didn’t  Sam have to shove/toss Gadreel out? I don’t think just saying “I revoke permission” was enough. 

 

Michael was never thrown out; he left. Now, maybe he did that to avoid being thrown out, or it may be that you can’t do that to an archangel.  The thing is, he never left completely – – that’s what this episode told us (and which many of us already suspected) – – and since his ties to Dean were never actually severed, he could simply slip back in. 

Good points. Also if I'm remembering correctly wasn't Raphael able to slip back into his vessel after he vacated him and left him a drooling mess? It didn't seem as if he would have been coherent enough to even give consent to be repossessed so it must not have been a requirement.

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

I wonder if the difference is simpler than that. Sam expelled Gadreel. Michael left on his own. He was never expelled.

I think this is the key.  Michael wasn't expelled, he left of his own choice, and "left the door open", somehow.  Considering how often this show screws with the canon, this didn't really bother me at all.

I liked the episode.  Happy to see Garth again, but it will be interesting to see what happens to him.  He can't stay in the trunk forever.  Dean becoming Michael was very cool.  Yes, we knew it was going to happen, but it was still frightening.  I personally am glad they didn't keep Michael in Dean this whole time.  I'd have missed Dean too much.  

I have mixed feelings about Dark Kaia.  Part of me is glad they didn't forget she existed in our world after last season, but she really doesn't have much purpose in this storyline.  I'd have much preferred that they reference back to Michael's actual spear as the weapon that could kill him, since they made such a big deal out of taking it with them.  It makes more sense than this magic spear that just happens to kill Archangels.  

I know not everyone has enjoyed the season so far, but I'm liking it.  Especially those episodes with no Nick/Lucifer.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I know not everyone has enjoyed the season so far

I think the handling of the Michael storyline and prioritizing any other random crap over it has been a letdown, the potential was there for something soooo much better. However, judging the episodes that we got, I really only thought the Season Opener and especially episode 3 blew chunks. The other episodes I was okay with, nothing too offensive and the occasional scenes I even liked. That`s still betting a far better average than Season 8.B or 9.A or 12.B.

Even this episode didn`t suck and it was penned by Berens. Even stupid DarkKaia was just a random cameo and we didn`t get her stupid posing and trash-talking Dean again.  I don`t like that she is still meant to be taken as such a badass threat and of course we needed the out-of-context bit with her doppelganger again in the previouslies. Groan.

Stuff that actually bugged me a bit more about this episode was more production side.  The slow-mo "hero walk" is usually a bit goofy but I`m genuinely a sucker for such scenes so I almost always let it slide. But the musical cue for it? Yes, I get the Die Hard reference and yes, I know the music. I saw some people on tumblr going "oh my, I never knew Ode to Joy had lyrics" which made me giggle because since they are German lyrics, of course "Freude schöner Götterfunken" is very familiar here. But it just didn`t mix well with the scene. You need to play it for someting more dynamic (even if something is happening in the background) than just walking.

The slow-mo walk actually worked better in the promo with different music. This just made it too goofy and too comical. 

Likewise Dean doing physical comedy with the spear doesn`t gel with him later being able to competently wield it in battle. Not everything needs goofy comic relief in it to break the tension. 

 Also, the snap is just too much of an Avengers joke right now, again, making the scene too comical despite wanting to end on a note of cliffhanger-y suspension.

Everyone on this show should really embrace the notion of "less is more" when it comes to comedy.  

[ILoveReading]

The problem is that technically Sam never revoked consent for Lucifer.  He took hold of him before he jumped.  Then Cas pulled him out and left part of him behind.   So technically Sam never really expelled Lucifer.  But Lucifer still needed Sam's permission to repossess him. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But Lucifer still needed Sam's permission to repossess him. 

But Lucifer didn't have a chance to leave the door to Sam open a bit, like Michael did.  Michael had plenty of time to set up his return, Lucifer didn't.  Or they just crapped all over the lore again, which is their wont.

[BabySpinach]

I think, given the precedent set by Raphael all the way back in season 5, consent in terms of archangels is a different beast from regular angel possession. They may need that initial "yes," but once they're inside it looks like they can open up a permanent re-entry route if they choose to. Lucifer may have just been too arrogant to bother, which would be pretty in-character of him.

Cas did say in season 5 that archangel vessels were a direct line to their possessors. While they all look dumb now for not taking precautions upon Dean's return, I don't necessarily see it as a lore retcon.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Cas did say in season 5 that archangel vessels were a direct line to their possessors. While they all look dumb now for not taking precautions upon Dean's return, I don't necessarily see it as a lore retcon.

I am certainly not one to defend anything under Dabb yet I can find ways for this to work without it being LOLcanon.   I

 I think it would be best explained for the show to acknowledge  there are differences between the AU and Earth 1 and in the AU once in a vessel it's irrevocable and maybe that's why humans resisted Michael so fully after they were allies. But that requires more imagination than they have demonstrated thus far.  So I'm not hopeful it will be the answer.

[Cambion]

So, just finished a second watch.  I have no clue if this is what TPTB intended, but here is my take on Michael's cracked door.

Back in Season 9 (and perhaps even earlier - I'm not sure) it was established that being possessed by an angel could/would/did leave some Grace in the vessel.  Remember Cas removing Gadreel's from Sam?   We've seen a couple of other Archangel possessions - Lucifer, though I'm not sure if he counts since technically he is also a demon, and is, therefore, a special case that seems to have some angel rules and some demon rules.  Raphael was another archangel who possessed two vessels (that we know of).  He also, left one of his vessels and came back -- remember the vessel Donnie Finnerman who was left drooling in the wheelchair (S5)?  Then Raphael showed back up in Donnie after we saw that Donnie was catatonic.  Since Donnie was drooling, I'm gonna say he probably did not say yes again, so Raphael just jumped back in.  Maybe it has to do with the grace that is left behind?

In "The Spear"  when Garth attacked Sam and Jack, he said, "he's in my head".  Well, how did Michael do that?  He did it because he had the monsters drink the potion containing his grace.  And their eyes flashed blue the way Dean's do when Michael possesses him?   That's what gives him the connection to Garth.

So that's gotta be the connection to Dean.  And while we haven't seen angels be able to jump back into a vessel without permission, we have seen Archangel Raphael do that and now Michael.  so, maybe since "Archangels are fierce. They're absolute. They're Heaven's most terrifying weapon."  they also have different powers/rules for possession than angels.  So perhaps they have the power to use their Grace as a wedge to get into the minds of their vessels whenever they want.  And in Michael's case, into the minds of his monsters, too.

Anyway,  that's my theory...

Edited December 15, 2018 by Cambion

[devlin]

I am confused. Why are people hating on dean for what he said to dark kaia. What did he do that was so wrong? Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t she kill original kaia while attempting to kill Claire 

[Bobcatkitten]

I think the finger snap is his signal to his army to turn the city and there will be lasting damage even if Michael is immediately captured and taken to the bunker. 

[MysteryGuest]

27 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I think the finger snap is his signal to his army to turn the city and there will be lasting damage even if Michael is immediately captured and taken to the bunker. 

I thought the same thing, so we'll see what happens.  There's an army of monsters out there, so the hunters who've come to clean up will have their hands full.  

I'm not mad at Dean for lying to Kaia.  What choice did they really have?  As far as they know, this is the one weapon in the universe that can hurt him, so they're going to have to get it.  They could have just killed her to do that, honestly, but they tried to persuade her to give it to them, instead.  And while he did lie about Jack's ability to send her back, I have no doubt that if they had been able to do what they set out to do, they'd have done whatever they could have to help her get back to her world.  Sadly, things didn't work out so well.  But she's still around, so they may get that chance later on.

[Casseiopeia]

On 12/14/2018 at 1:39 PM, SueB said:

So Dean's happy place is to run a dive bar? 

 

As Dean was being taken over, it flashed to the bar multiple times and ended with him there. I like how the beer is "Texas Star."

 

 

This bar set is definitely new.  Although the set appears to be the same one Gabriel used to trap Lucifer at the end of last year.  But I think this is where Michael "stashed" Dean.  

Interesting choice.  But who's the drunk?

Except wasn't Dean drowning the entire time?

[Cambion]

29 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Except wasn't Dean drowning the entire time?

Yeah, but Michael may be trying something different this time to keep Dean from squirming too much.  Dean did say he was fighting the water/drowning, perhaps that is what Michael felt and called squirming.