Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Wynterwolf]

9 hours ago, scriggle said:

In the article linked above, they say the fan theory that old!Steve was at Peggy's funeral is wrong. In another article I read they're confirming that theory. So which is it? You'd think they know definitively since they wrote the screenplay.

Right?  And obviously, Young!Steve would have had no interest at all in meeting Peggy's husband and paying his respects, and it wouldn't have seemed weird at all if he wasn't there with the rest of Peggy's family.  And yeah, I have no problem with him not knowing about Sharon, because she was extended family... but he would have been curious as hell about Peggy's 'husband', particularly after him watching that video of Peggy talking about Steve 'saving' him.  And the idea that Steve Rogers (who's face was everywhere during the war) could hide, and yet still be part of Peggy's life after 1945 is just ludicrous. 

6 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

That kind of death is clearly harder to get over, as we are still heatedly discussing it.

Yeah, I could fairly easily roll my eyes and handwave the time travel fiasco, but the (continued!!!) disrespect to the character(s) is what doesn’t go away.

6 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I just wish they'd stop acting like the only thing that creates a new timeline is taking an infinity stone as justification for Steve being able to go back. The film very explicitly addresses that they can't go back and kill Thanos as a baby.

They can’t even keep track of their own excuses anymore.

This is apparently from the commentary track (from here)  :  

Quote

“It never changed. Both Tony and Cap’s endings were very clear throughout the entire process,” Joe Russo said. “You cannot tell a story between two films unless you understand the ending of the second film.” McFeely echoed that sentiment: “We put stakes in the ground and drove at them.”

I felt from the beginning that this was true.  That they had predetermined endings they were trying to get to (regardless of where any of the previous storytelling had actually led them, "culmination" of 10 years of storytelling be damned), and that's why the storytelling was so poorly done, because there just wasn't enough screen time left to set it up properly. 

But I don't believe them when they say that they knew what Steve's ending was going to be prior to when IW was released (and I wonder if that was because there were still ongoing negotiation happening with CE, that eventually fell through).  And the thing is, if this is true... if they did know as early as before IW was finished, then they did truly, epically fail in the storytelling.  They did NOTHING in IW to set up Steve and Peggy (they actually did more to potentially set up Steve and Nat). 

 And if this was going to be Steve's grand exit, Peggy should have been in EG... they should have had a fucking conversation, we should have been able to watch the characters emotionally reconnect and she should have been part of the action, not just have Steve stare longingly at a picture a few times. 

But in any scenario, there is simply no excuse for having him choose to go back to the past.  And yeah, I still would have liked to have seen him reappear with Nat on the platform (have that be the 'surprise' at the end, because him being able to get Nat back would have required so much less handwaving than what they did), and then have the two of them decide to go planet hopping to help with the restoration after the un-snap.

[stealinghome]

Now THAT is a road trip buddy movie that I would pay top dollar to see.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, clack said:

As to the fan-fic alternatives to his dying or returning to the past : Steve is de-serumed and returns to the shrimp he was, Steve just mysteriously disappears,etc. -- they are all terrible ideas.

Furthermore. If Steve had been de-serumed, the way to continue would be stick him in an Iron Man suit. But that would be recycling the idea of Bruce in a suit.

[swanpride]

Tony's arc isn't about self-sacrifice. He was always ready to do that if push comes to shove. It is about legacy. Remember, his biggest fear in AoU was that they lost and he would survive. I think he prefers to die so that everyone else could life. And he most likely loves the legacy he left - in the world, in Morgan and in Peter.

The issue with Steve is that his arc was for me always to find a home in THIS time, not to hold onto a lost era. Plus, I really don't see him going back to the past as happy end for him.

[clack]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

The issue with Steve is that his arc was for me always to find a home in THIS time, not to hold onto a lost era. 

That was the intention at one point.

In Winter Soldier mourns Peggy, acquires a potential new love interest in her niece, exchanges his old job in the army for a new, equivalent one working with SHIELD and the Avengers,  and begins learning about 21st c. culture.

His arc: letting go of his past and acclimating to his new surroundings, while integrating his old-fashioned values of loyalty and patriotism into his new world. An immigrant's story, if you will -- bringing the best of the old culture into the new.

But that arc doesn't work once Chris Evans decides to leave the role. Or rather, it works only if Steve dies. Otherwise, every MCU from now would 1st have to get out of the way, "hey, where is Captain America? Why isn't he helping out?"

[swanpride]

Well, if he had come back scrawny, it would have answered the question….

Or you do the tragic ending of him saying that this is now his home and then ending lost in time AGAIN!

[clack]

Even scrawny Steve is as big as most of the MCU female superheroes. And even without superpowers, Steve's tactical skills and leadership qualities would still be highly useful to the team.

A more tragic end for Steve would not fulfill his character:

A loser with a big heart is given a serum that transforms him into a super-soldier. He then spends the next dozen years in combat before dying young, having never known happiness in love.

That character arc doesn't seem to be a satisfying one to me. Too sad for Marvel.

Edited August 4, 2019 by clack

[Cirien]

15 minutes ago, clack said:

Even scrawny Steve is as big as most of the MCU female superheroes. And even without superpowers, Steve's tactical skills and leadership qualities would still be highly useful to the team.

A more tragic end for Steve would not fulfill his character:

A loser with a big heart is given a serum that transforms him into a super-soldier. He then spends the next dozen years in combat before dying young, having never known happiness in love.

That character arc doesn't seem to be a satisfying one to me. Too sad for Marvel.

This assumes that *Peggy* is it for him. Which while a romantic notion isn't realistic. At all Natasha, Tony, Pepper etc, they've all had numerous love interest which could have been "the one" but Steve is forever tied to Peggy. That's depressing 

(and yes Haley Atwell I'm side eyeing you so hard) 

[clack]

3 hours ago, Cirien said:

This assumes that *Peggy* is it for him. Which while a romantic notion isn't realistic. At all Natasha, Tony, Pepper etc, they've all had numerous love interest which could have been "the one" but Steve is forever tied to Peggy. That's depressing 

(and yes Haley Atwell I'm side eyeing you so hard) 

Romantic love isn't rational.

Steve was a lonely guy. Women didn't give him the time of day. Suddenly, this beautiful, intelligent, capable, strong-willed woman comes into his life. I get why he would carry a torch.

Is there for Steve a more worthy potential mate? Pepper might come close, but she's taken. Natasha is broken inside.

[Crs97]

In the first Avengers, he saves the waitress who gushes about him.  I thought I had read something that she was going to be a bigger part of his life, but she ended up disappearing.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

In the first Avengers, he saves the waitress who gushes about him.  I thought I had read something that she was going to be a bigger part of his life, but she ended up disappearing.

She originally had more scenes in The Avengers but they were cut. Steve meets her in the very beginning of the movie and she flirts with him and then there were scenes showing her throughout the Battle of New York. I think most of them were on the dvd and can be found on YouTube. 

I don’t think she was ever supposed to be a serious love interest. Whedon just likes following ordinary people in his movies. There was a similar arc with a mother and son in Ultron that was also deleted. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

23 hours ago, swanpride said:

Well, I assumed that those timelines DIDN'T happen and where just possibilities. It would be a little bit much if there is another timeline for every decision someone might have made differently.

The thing is, if you listen to physicists talk about the multiverse, this is exactly how many of them think it works. Every decision branches off. The multiverse is seemingly infinite. I'm obsessed with the notion. 

[swanpride]

Yes, I know, the possible science behind it. I am thinking more about what makes sense for narrative purposes.

[Cirien]

7 hours ago, clack said:

Romantic love isn't rational.

Steve was a lonely guy. Women didn't give him the time of day. Suddenly, this beautiful, intelligent, capable, strong-willed woman comes into his life. I get why he would carry a torch.

Is there for Steve a more worthy potential mate? Pepper might come close, but she's taken. Natasha is broken inside.

You never forget your first love. That's true. But it's not about being worthy. It's about Peggy not being given a glance since TWS and yet suddenly she's given prominence in Cap's last film?

That support group was for people who lost people in the *snap*. And Steve decides to bring up Peggy ( who died peacefully in her sleep btw- talk about inappropriate) ? 

(Also Natasha isn't broken- that's an awful way to describe her)

[Raja]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Yes, I know, the possible science behind it. I am thinking more about what makes sense for narrative purposes.

Teal'c of Stargate SG-1 points the way. "Only my reality counts". We know, but in don't and can't care about what happens in the other realities until they show us that branching reality story. 

I guess a Disney + miniseries will tell the story of branches made by Loki's not being brought back to Asgard as a prisoner 

[clack]

3 hours ago, Cirien said:

You never forget your first love. That's true. But it's not about being worthy. It's about Peggy not being given a glance since TWS and yet suddenly she's given prominence in Cap's last film?

(Also Natasha isn't broken- that's an awful way to describe her)

Until Endgame, we never saw Steve taking a piss. Doesn't mean he wasn't doing it several times daily all along.

Natasha was trained as an assassin since childhood. She refers to herself as a "monster". In her "red ledger" talk with Loki, there is an ominous reference to a "hospital fire" incident. That's what I mean by "broken inside" -- she's a damaged person., damaged by what has been done to her, and what she's done to others.

[Bruinsfan]

16 hours ago, clack said:

Is there for Steve a more worthy potential mate? Pepper might come close, but she's taken. Natasha is broken inside.

Since MCU Thor appeared to have no romantic interest in Lady Sif, he should have hooked a brother up. (Or sister, it's not as if Sif would have been getting a bad deal either!)

4 hours ago, clack said:

Until Endgame, we never saw Steve taking a piss. Doesn't mean he wasn't doing it several times daily all along.

Man, just how extensive ARE these deleted scenes that are getting released with the digital movies?

[dmeets]

Quote

As I said previously, my issue with the alternate timeline is that alt!Peggy is not his Peggy. His Peggy died in 2016 after a long and happy life. There's an alt!Steve there trapped in the ice. So does prime!Steve lie to alt!Peggy so he can take over alt!Steve's life and alt!Peggy doesn't notice the difference? Because let's be real, prime!steve of 2023 is not the same as he was in 1945. Does prime!Steve tell her who he really is and alt!Peggy decides she wants him and not her Steve? Then what happens to alt!Steve?

I've got it! They went for the Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me ending, where

Spoiler

Heather Graham ends up with both Austin and Austin From 5 Minutes Ago.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Since MCU Thor appeared to have no romantic interest in Lady Sif, he should have hooked a brother up. (Or sister, it's not as if Sif would have been getting a bad deal either!)

Man, just how extensive ARE these deleted scenes that are getting released with the digital movies?

Is talking about a deleted scene a spoiler? In any case they are up on YouTube 

[BetterButter]

[VCRTracking]

33 minutes ago, BetterButter said:

"Captain Clench" Heh.

[festivus]

"Five years have passed since half the population vanished or as introverts call it: Winning the lottery" LOL

I liked the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff they'll try to explain 100 times part. 

Didn't work, should have gone for 101.

(SQUEE)

[Spartan Girl]

Good stuff, but I'm disappointed that they didn't even touch the controversy of Steve's ending or why the fuck was Ross at the funeral. The movie didn't make EVERYONE happy, Honest Trailers! Saying it was better than GOT isn't a very high bar.

[Dandesun]

I haven't had the time to watch it yet but if they don't touch on something someone else said in this very thread about the population (sorry! I don't remember who!) basically just going back to what it was in the 1970s and WHY exactly can't we have Major League Baseball?

Can you imagine half the population getting wiped out in a snap... readjusting for five years... and then bringing all of those people back?

What a mess.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I haven't had the time to watch it yet but if they don't touch on something someone else said in this very thread about the population (sorry! I don't remember who!) basically just going back to what it was in the 1970s and WHY exactly can't we have Major League Baseball?

They made a joke about how baseball is still unpopular.

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I haven't had the time to watch it yet but if they don't touch on something someone else said in this very thread about the population (sorry! I don't remember who!) basically just going back to what it was in the 1970s and WHY exactly can't we have Major League Baseball? 

Can you imagine half the population getting wiped out in a snap... readjusting for five years... and then bringing all of those people back?

What a mess.

Spider-Man Far From Home treats it where everyone is kind of like "Man, that was really weird, wasn't it? Let's just move on".

[blueray]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Good stuff, but I'm disappointed that they didn't even touch the controversy of Steve's ending or why the fuck was Ross at the funeral. The movie didn't make EVERYONE happy, Honest Trailers! Saying it was better than GOT isn't a very high bar.

maybe they'll talk about it on their commentary episode. They are now posting them on separate days.

[VCRTracking]

On 8/6/2019 at 2:05 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Good stuff, but I'm disappointed that they didn't even touch the controversy of Steve's ending or why the fuck was Ross at the funeral. The movie didn't make EVERYONE happy, Honest Trailers! Saying it was better than GOT isn't a very high bar.

20 hours ago, blueray said:

maybe they'll talk about it on their commentary episode. They are now posting them on separate days.

Yep they talk about it. One of the commenters believes the theory that Cap created an alternate reality and they joke about the main Steve keeping the other Steve from being found in the ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFsOtqGUuMk

Edited August 7, 2019 by VCRTracking

[krankydoodle]

The Russos just wrapped up a Reddit AMA.

[JessePinkman]

I listened to the Endgame commentary, it's very good if you want to understand why they made certain decisions in the script  and characters emotions and blah blah blah motivation. They hardly discussed the technical aspects of the film! And this movie was wall to wall CGI and set pieces and about a billion moving pieces. I wanted to hear more about how they put this beast together. So that was disappointing.

[ramble]

I always like this YouTuber’s Marvel compilations. Infinity War + Endgame 

[Jeebus Cripes]

7 hours ago, krankydoodle said:

The Russos just wrapped up a Reddit AMA.

I didn't have time to read everything, but this bit they answered:

Quote

Reggie_48
Can you help me/everyone understand how Captain America got back to the main time line when he returned all the stones, because it contradicts the time travel theory stated by Banner earlier in the movie.

Banner said that when you go back in time you make a seperate time line, so it doesn't effect the past, but if Captain America was in a different time line when he returned the stones, how did he back to the main time line without the use of the quantum suits

Russo_Brothers

You are correct in that he would have had to have worn the quantum suit, using a pym particle to make the jump. He's not wearing the suit on the bench, because that is not the exact moment to which he returned.

Glad they cleared that up. Could they clue in the writers while they're at it?

Edited August 8, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[Wynterwolf]

10 hours ago, ramble said:

I always like this YouTuber’s Marvel compilations. Infinity War + Endgame 

That personal is a literal genius with videos. This is just extraordinary.  

[Wynterwolf]

6 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Russo_Brothers

You are correct in that he would have had to have worn the quantum suit, using a pym particle to make the jump. He's not wearing the suit on the bench, because that is not the exact moment to which he returned.

And they could have EASILY SHOWN THAT, by giving a glimpse of a suit under the bench in a hold-all, or hidden in a nearby trash can, or something.  Which makes me think that it wasn't what they originally had in mind...  because I could see everything playing out in exactly this way if you revolve your whole storyline around a time loop, and then realize at the very last minute (like at the preview screening?), that it was actually a really terrible idea.  

But I could actually handle that, IF the Old!Steve that showed up was the Steve that had been under the ice in that alternate timeline. And that our Steve is still... somewhere, doing something. And I can actually imagine that our Steve purposely creating that alternate timeline might help 'the multiverse', if the people from that verse can go to other verses to help out (like this Steve did with getting Sam a new shield).  

Also, polyamory is totally a thing in that alternate timeline...  😉

Edited August 8, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[Racj82]

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:05 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Good stuff, but I'm disappointed that they didn't even touch the controversy of Steve's ending or why the fuck was Ross at the funeral. The movie didn't make EVERYONE happy, Honest Trailers! Saying it was better than GOT isn't a very high bar.

They actually didn't use the word everybody for Endgame. They said they gave a satisfying conclusion. That was it.

And the word everyone isn't literal in any instance. Not everyone hated the Game of Thrones finale as they said in the honest trailer for example.

I really don't give a damn how people end series at this point. Make the ending you want to make. If I don't like it, I don't like it. I just move on. Doesn't mean it was waste of my time or I need to go all internet outrage like so many people do.

[Crs97]

When I was little and would be furious with the ending of a movie, my mother would listen for awhile and then finally (in desperation) tell me it really ended the way I wanted it, but they ran out of film and time.  Worked when I was five.  Frankly, still kinda works at 50.

[Jeebus Cripes]

47 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

When I was little and would be furious with the ending of a movie, my mother would listen for awhile and then finally (in desperation) tell me it really ended the way I wanted it, but they ran out of film and time.  Worked when I was five.  Frankly, still kinda works at 50.

Headcanon is the only canon. 

[Cirien]

12 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I didn't have time to read everything, but this bit they answered:

Glad they cleared that up. Could they clue in the writers while they're at it?

 

These are the same people who essentially said that the reason Cap wasn't on Vormir was because he wouldn't recognise Red Skull -

Yep. The man has an Eidetic Memory but he wouldn't recognise Red Skull. 

[Wynterwolf]

But... it's also important to interrogate and examine who is being left out of these epic narratives and why, and what the underlying messages are that we might not consciously be aware of.  Particularly as they relate to historically marginalized identities.  This movie was a cis het white dude's fantasy.  It's not in the least bit surprising that a lot of people felt not only betrayed, but also harmed by what was portrayed on screen.  

[Jeebus Cripes]

9 hours ago, Cirien said:

These are the same people who essentially said that the reason Cap wasn't on Vormir was because he wouldn't recognise Red Skull -

Yep. The man has an Eidetic Memory but he wouldn't recognise Red Skull. 

The Russos or the writers? Who said this foolishness? 

[swanpride]

You really don't need an eidetic memory to remember the red skull. Honestly, it was kind of surprising that neither Hawkeye nor Black Widow recognized him, but you can excuse that with neither of them being particularly interested in History. Though we KNOW that Natasha saw a picture of the Red Skull in the Winter Soldier. But I guess I wouldn't connect a grainy newspaper picture with some guy on a foreign planet decades later, either. But Cap or Bucky should recognize him.

[scriggle]

13 hours ago, Cirien said:

These are the same people who essentially said that the reason Cap wasn't on Vormir was because he wouldn't recognise Red Skull -

Which begs the question: why use Red Skull in the first place if they weren't going to tie it back to Steve?

So many things about AE make no sense.

[swanpride]

In order to conclude the dangling plot threat of what happened to him.

[Bruinsfan]

It was him or some new character who would have no emotional impact whatsoever, right?

I'd assumed that when Steve was ready to return to his own timeline, he could have just asked Dr. Strange (or the Ancient One if she was still alive) to send him home with the Eye of Agamotto/Time Stone, since it wouldn't have been destroyed in the divergent one he'd been living in. I guess keeping his quantum suit works too, though either he had to keep the thing in working order for 70+ years or wait until someone in the divergent timeline could restore it.

[JessePinkman]

The Russo brothers were joking.

[Wynterwolf]

14 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

23 hours ago, Cirien said:

These are the same people who essentially said that the reason Cap wasn't on Vormir was because he wouldn't recognise Red Skull -

Yep. The man has an Eidetic Memory but he wouldn't recognise Red Skull. 

The Russos or the writers? Who said this foolishness? 

I'll cut them a tiny bit of slack in this instance, though it was a poorly articulated joke... apparently they just meant because the character was being played by a different actor (though with the makeup, it obviously would have been easy to extrapolate).  

[clack]

On 8/8/2019 at 4:29 PM, Wynterwolf said:

But... it's also important to interrogate and examine who is being left out of these epic narratives and why, and what the underlying messages are that we might not consciously be aware of.  Particularly as they relate to historically marginalized identities.  This movie was a cis het white dude's fantasy.  It's not in the least bit surprising that a lot of people felt not only betrayed, but also harmed by what was portrayed on screen.  

I think it's more that what was once understood to be mere fanfic sexual fantasy -- the two heterosexual male characters going gay for each other (Spock and Kirk) -- has transmuted into what some people now want to see made official, made canon, played out on screen, and get angry when that doesn't happen.

But Steve and Bucky ending up as a couple was never in the cards, and feeling betrayed (and harmed!) because a character who was always portrayed as a heterosexual man ends up married to a woman is, imo, unreasonable.

[swanpride]

I didn't expect them to end up being a couple. In fact, I prefer them as epic bromance (just like I prefer Steve and Natasha as friends, and Clint and Natasha as friends). But there is no denying that the whole Captain America Saga has always been more about Bucky than Peggy. And I can understand why some people feel that the denying of this bromance in favour for a heteronormative ending which conforms to the really, really old idea that the hero has to get the girl in the end does both the character and the franchise a disservice.

[SimoneS]

On 8/10/2019 at 1:53 AM, swanpride said:

I didn't expect them to end up being a couple. In fact, I prefer them as epic bromance (just like I prefer Steve and Natasha as friends, and Clint and Natasha as friends). But there is no denying that the whole Captain America Saga has always been more about Bucky than Peggy. And I can understand why some people feel that the denying of this bromance in favour for a heteronormative ending which conforms to the really, really old idea that the hero has to get the girl in the end does both the character and the franchise a disservice.

I can easily deny that "whole Captain America Saga has always been more about Bucky than Peggy." I don't even know where that perspective comes from. This story has never been an epic bromance and anyone wanting it was doomed to disappointment.  

This has always been Steve's story, period. A young man who becomes one of the world's greatest heroes. To quote from one of my favorite MCU movies, "a symbol to the nation, a hero to the world, the story of Captain America is one of honor, bravery, and sacrifice." Steve has had many strong friendships with several people on his journey; Sam (who is always ignored), Bucky, and Natasha. That Steve chose to reunite with Peggy, his one and only love is his reward for all he gave the world. I am thrilled that Steve got that happiness, love, and peace while he was still young enough to enjoy it. He deserved it and earned every moment. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by SimoneS

[swanpride]

A young man whose most important decisions have been about Bucky. Why did a break out of the propaganda circle to become captain America for real? To Rescue Bucky. Who is the person he grieved over before his last fight against the Red Skull? Bucky. Why did he really die towards the end of The Winter Soldier? Because he couldn't bring himself to fight Bucky once the rest of the world was save. And why did Civil War happen? Because of Bucky. Who did he watch go to dust in Infinity War? Bucky. And who is he talking about to a group of "survivors" later on? Peggy. It doesn't really make that much sense. I can kind of get behind the idea that Thor is able to walk past Loki but not past his mother, since what he wants and needs the most is a good dose of sympathy. But that after everything which happened Bucky doesn't play any role in Endgame at all feels very dissatisfying.

Not just in regard to Steve, btw. At the very least they could have added a scene in the battle in which Bucky and Tony share a moment. ANY kind of moment.

[Danny Franks]

5 minutes ago, swanpride said:

A young man whose most important decisions have been about Bucky. Why did a break out of the propaganda circle to become captain America for real? To Rescue Bucky. Who is the person he grieved over before his last fight against the Red Skull? Bucky. Why did he really die towards the end of The Winter Soldier? Because he couldn't bring himself to fight Bucky once the rest of the world was save. And why did Civil War happen? Because of Bucky. Who did he watch go to dust in Infinity War? Bucky. And who is he talking about to a group of "survivors" later on? Peggy. It doesn't really make that much sense. I can kind of get behind the idea that Thor is able to walk past Loki but not past his mother, since what he wants and needs the most is a good dose of sympathy. But that after everything which happened Bucky doesn't play any role in Endgame at all feels very dissatisfying.

Not just in regard to Steve, btw. At the very least they could have added a scene in the battle in which Bucky and Tony share a moment. ANY kind of moment.

Notice how not one bit of this is actually about what Bucky feels and thinks? That's why it's not an epic bromance. Bucky is reduced to a macguffin to compel Steve's plot forward and provide him with manpain.

Peggy had more agency in one movie than Bucky had in five. And it wasn't too dissimilar in the comics - Steve had to be gone for Bucky to step out of the shadows and become a hero, and I hope that's echoed in the Falcon and Winter Soldier series, where we'll see Bucky actually get real character development.