Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Jeebus Cripes]

5 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm sure some are, but I know a lot that are angry for how Peggy was reduced to a prize (good article about the issue of male entitlement in Steve's arc here). 

I feel like the ending was designed to appeal most to people who either haven't seen the prior movies, or don't remember much about them and so were only going by what was shown in this movie, so it was more like a stand alone.  But even with that, there are still so many logical fallacies that you can't make any scenario work with the text 100%, so you have to either fill in a lot, or ignore stuff.  

OMG, I should print out that article and hand it to everyone who asks me why I'm so upset. 

[blugirlami21]

I'm glad I'm not the only one rubbed wrong by Steve's ending. I felt so let down by the ending that they gave him because that wasn't Steve. Steve would never be so selfish.  Whether he created an alternate timeline or not, he took it upon himself to decide Peggy's life. To usurp her future. How could he do that knowing that she had a great life? Kids? How could he stand by and live through time knowing what he knew? Knowing about Hydra and Bucky?

I was jarred by the constant Steggy reminders throughout the film because what they ultimately had was a moment. That's it. They hadn't even had a first date when he died. Who's to say it would have even worked out had he not crashed the plane?

And he looked like a total hypocrite because he never once took his own advice. Move on. He wasted Tony and Natasha's sacrifices and totally regressed as a character. 

And it was lazy. They could have had him actually retire. Still pass the shield to Sam and I don't know spend some time with the people he was so desperate to bring back. I would have been fine with him getting that dance with Peggy and then coming back to the future because that's where he belonged. Or they could have just killed him, that would have been preferable to me.

I legit am going to pretend that it didn't happen. The movie ended with Steve returning the stones off screen and then getting on with his life like he was supposed to.

Edited May 22, 2019 by blugirlami21

[festivus]

9 hours ago, scriggle said:

2023!Steve is not the same person as 1945!Steve. He's experienced so much in the decade or so he's been unfrozen. Peggy would absolutely notice the difference. I simply can't believe she would be okay letting her 1945!Steve stay in the ice to marry 2023!Steve.

I know! There's no way that Peggy Carter would let her Steve stay frozen in the ice. Plus can you imagine the conversation when our Steve showed up? She would be like where did you come from? He would have to tell her the truth. It honestly doesn't make sense on any level.

I already bitched about the leaving Bucky thing but what about Sam? He didn't tell his friend he probably wasn't coming back? What an unbelievably shitty thing to do to your friend. Your friend that just missed 5 years of his life.

All of this happened so the writers could have their little shock moments at the expense of ruining Steve's character. I don't think they thought this through. For myself I'm just going to have to go with my space idea so I can still like Steve. 

10 hours ago, Dandesun said:

But, at the same time, it has opened up the multiverse and I read comics and Into the Spider-Verse is a thing. There are tons of endings. Whatever canon, I've never settled for you when I didn't want to anyway.

But you know they didn't even have to do it. They had already established the multiverse when Loki took off with the Tesseract. Plus there were shenanigans when they took the stones, I'm sure there where shenanigans when Steve put them back. 

6 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

And he looked like a total hypocrite because he never once took his own advice. Move on. He wasted Tony and Natasha's sacrifices and totally regressed as a character. 

Bingo!

[Dee]

I'm just glad Steve made sure to return to the current timeline to give his husband Sam their shield as a wedding present.

[scriggle]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

I'm just glad Steve made sure to return to the current timeline to give his husband Sam their shield as a wedding present.

Only because his other husband Bucky didn't want it. 😀

Yeah, I ship the OT3.

Actually let's make it the barbershop quartet because Steve totally found a way to bring back Natasha in exchange for the soul stone.

[Wynterwolf]

39 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Actually let's make it the barbershop quartet because Steve totally found a way to bring back Natasha in exchange for the soul stone.

Yep, that's where I'm living these days... 

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, scriggle said:

Actually let's make it the barbershop quartet because Steve totally found a way to bring back Natasha in exchange for the soul stone.

Steve goes to return the Soul Stone which is guarded, for some reason, by the Red Skull and we don't get to see that? We don't get to see Steve punch the shit out of that guy, shove the stone up his ass and go "GIVE NATASHA BACK NOW!!!"  -- what sort of fucked up world IS this?!

And when he gets Nat back, he hugs her... one of those great big Steve hugs and just rocks her back and forth for a bit and then says 'Your ledger is clear.'

Edited May 22, 2019 by Dandesun

[Bruinsfan]

17 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Nah, Steve 'tidied up' the issue of a second Cap, if you know what I mean. 

Threesome?

[Danny Franks]

7 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Threesome?

Foursome. He finally got to learn what Howard really meant when he said "fondue".

[Wynterwolf]

26 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Threesome?

There is already fic!!!  🤣

[scriggle]

I read/heard an interview with the Russos or Markus & Mcfeely where they explained they went with the 5 year jump to raise the stakes, so there’d be consequences.

But what they really did was put the Avengers in a no-win situation. I know from the Spiderman2 trailer, the deification of Tony has begun in the MCU but would the world really hail the Avengers as heroes?

Let me ramble a bit about the 5 year jump. I don't think these suppositions are far-fetched.

• Thanos snaps his fingers and half of all living things turn to dust
• Countless more deaths occur immediately post-snap due to plane crashes, car crashes, etc
• Entire surviving population is severely traumatized
• In the months/years post snap, many more deaths from suicide, famine, violence over resources, disease, etc.
• World begins to reach a new "normal," people begin to move on, new relationships, children are born, etc.
• The UnSnappening: the dusted are brought back.
• The world is thrown into chaos. Again.
• More deaths from famine, violence over resources, disease, etc.

Are people really going to regard the Avengers as heroes after that? Some will. But for every person who does, there'll be one who blames them. Blames them for the snap. Blames them for the post-snap collateral deaths. Blames them for the chaos resulting from the UnSnappening. Once people learn time travel was involved, there'll be people who'll want to know why they didn't prevent the snap and all those collateral deaths.

On the other hand, if the Avengers were able to go back and prevent the snap from happening (something that wasn't given due consideration because Tony had a kid), prevent all those collateral post snap deaths, there'd be those who hate the Avengers for erasing their new lives/families.

No-win situation.

I really don't think the Russos/M&M/Feige thought this all the way through. I have no faith any of the consequences of the UnSnappening will be dealt with in any meaningful way in the MCU. It'll be handwaved away, all those consequences be damned. Because really all they cared about was Tony having a kid and family for those 5 years so they could set him up as the hero who sacrifices himself to save the world.

I probably haven't explained this well but it's something to think about.

[festivus]

Nah, we're supposed to take what's spoonfed to us and be happy. (yes, I've been to other sites where you don't DARE criticize Marvel). I love the MCU but they can and do fuck-up. I think what happens to the world after the snappening is fair to discuss. I mean I had to wade through pages of talk in the Civil War thread about the accords so I think this is a fair subject to discuss.

Edited May 22, 2019 by festivus

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, scriggle said:

I read/heard an interview with the Russos or Markus & Mcfeely where they explained they went with the 5 year jump to raise the stakes, so there’d be consequences.

But what they really did was put the Avengers in a no-win situation. I know from the Spiderman2 trailer, the deification of Tony has begun in the MCU but would the world really hail the Avengers as heroes?

Let me ramble a bit about the 5 year jump. I don't think these suppositions are far-fetched.

• Thanos snaps his fingers and half of all living things turn to dust
• Countless more deaths occur immediately post-snap due to plane crashes, car crashes, etc
• Entire surviving population is severely traumatized
• In the months/years post snap, many more deaths from suicide, famine, violence over resources, disease, etc.
• World begins to reach a new "normal," people begin to move on, new relationships, children are born, etc.
• The UnSnappening: the dusted are brought back.
• The world is thrown into chaos. Again.
• More deaths from famine, violence over resources, disease, etc.

Are people really going to regard the Avengers as heroes after that? Some will. But for every person who does, there'll be one who blames them. Blames them for the snap. Blames them for the post-snap collateral deaths. Blames them for the chaos resulting from the UnSnappening. Once people learn time travel was involved, there'll be people who'll want to know why they didn't prevent the snap and all those collateral deaths.

On the other hand, if the Avengers were able to go back and prevent the snap from happening (something that wasn't given due consideration because Tony had a kid), prevent all those collateral post snap deaths, there'd be those who hate the Avengers for erasing their new lives/families.

No-win situation.

I really don't think the Russos/M&M/Feige thought this all the way through. I have no faith any of the consequences of the UnSnappening will be dealt with in any meaningful way in the MCU. It'll be handwaved away, all those consequences be damned. Because really all they cared about was Tony having a kid and family for those 5 years so they could set him up as the hero who sacrifices himself to save the world.

I probably haven't explained this well but it's something to think about.

Marvel Boss Explains How Hulk's Snap Did More Than Just Bring Everyone Back

"What was made clear during Endgame is that when a Snap happens, the snapper basically envisions what they want to happen and it becomes so. Feige explained that since Bruce Banner was Smart Hulk when he performed his Snap, he just made sure that he brought everybody back safely. Hey presto, a potential plothole perfectly rationalized and explained."

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, scriggle said:

I read/heard an interview with the Russos or Markus & Mcfeely where they explained they went with the 5 year jump to raise the stakes, so there’d be consequences.

But what they really did was put the Avengers in a no-win situation. I know from the Spiderman2 trailer, the deification of Tony has begun in the MCU but would the world really hail the Avengers as heroes?

Let me ramble a bit about the 5 year jump. I don't think these suppositions are far-fetched.

• Thanos snaps his fingers and half of all living things turn to dust
• Countless more deaths occur immediately post-snap due to plane crashes, car crashes, etc
• Entire surviving population is severely traumatized
• In the months/years post snap, many more deaths from suicide, famine, violence over resources, disease, etc.
• World begins to reach a new "normal," people begin to move on, new relationships, children are born, etc.
• The UnSnappening: the dusted are brought back.
• The world is thrown into chaos. Again.
• More deaths from famine, violence over resources, disease, etc.

Are people really going to regard the Avengers as heroes after that? Some will. But for every person who does, there'll be one who blames them. Blames them for the snap. Blames them for the post-snap collateral deaths. Blames them for the chaos resulting from the UnSnappening. Once people learn time travel was involved, there'll be people who'll want to know why they didn't prevent the snap and all those collateral deaths.

On the other hand, if the Avengers were able to go back and prevent the snap from happening (something that wasn't given due consideration because Tony had a kid), prevent all those collateral post snap deaths, there'd be those who hate the Avengers for erasing their new lives/families.

No-win situation.

I really don't think the Russos/M&M/Feige thought this all the way through. I have no faith any of the consequences of the UnSnappening will be dealt with in any meaningful way in the MCU. It'll be handwaved away, all those consequences be damned. Because really all they cared about was Tony having a kid and family for those 5 years so they could set him up as the hero who sacrifices himself to save the world.

I probably haven't explained this well but it's something to think about.

[scriggle]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Marvel Boss Explains How Hulk's Snap Did More Than Just Bring Everyone Back

"What was made clear during Endgame is that when a Snap happens, the snapper basically envisions what they want to happen and it becomes so. Feige explained that since Bruce Banner was Smart Hulk when he performed his Snap, he just made sure that he brought everybody back safely. Hey presto, a potential plothole perfectly rationalized and explained."

It seems to me the redditor is referring to those who were dusted in the snap being suddenly brought back 35000ft up if they were in a plane and going splat or in the middle of the ocean if they were on a cruise and then drowning. So Bruce brought back all the dusted safely.

I don't read into Feige's answer that people who died because the pilot of their plane was dusted and the plane subsequently crashed or were mowed down by a suddenly driverless car or committed suicide because their family turned to dust before their eyes were brought back by Bruce.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Marvel Boss Explains How Hulk's Snap Did More Than Just Bring Everyone Back

"What was made clear during Endgame is that when a Snap happens, the snapper basically envisions what they want to happen and it becomes so. Feige explained that since Bruce Banner was Smart Hulk when he performed his Snap, he just made sure that he brought everybody back safely. Hey presto, a potential plothole perfectly rationalized and explained."

Not too far-fetched, considering he's Professor Hulk, and would have the forethought to consider that sort of thing. And also a nice reference to when Greg Pak rather daftly tried to write into the Hulk comics that even in his crazed rampages, the Hulk used his understanding of physics to ensure nothing he ever crushed, knocked down, flung or otherwise damaged, resulted in any people being killed.

Regarding Natasha, I can also believe that her death is unfixable as part of the deal you make to get the Soul Stone in the first place. But I'm envisioning a scenario where Hawkeye decides to visit one of the fourteen million realities, grab their Natasha and say "this place is fucked, Thanos wins,' then drag her back to the prime timeline.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, scriggle said:

It seems to me the redditor is referring to those who were dusted in the snap being suddenly brought back 35000ft up if they were in a plane and going splat or in the middle of the ocean if they were on a cruise and then drowning. So Bruce brought back all the dusted safely.

I don't read into Feige's answer that people who died because the pilot of their plane was dusted and the plane subsequently crashed or were mowed down by a suddenly driverless car or committed suicide because their family turned to dust before their eyes were brought back by Bruce.

Bruce has lived in the post-snap world for 5 years so he was probably thinking about that. I can imagine him thinking to bring back all who were dusted and anyone who died directly because of the Snap like people in planes, patients in hospitals, bereaved loved ones who committed suicide...

[blugirlami21]

Hmmm I've thought about that too but I would imagine wishing that anyone or anything directly or indirectly affected by the snap be safely fixed would do it.

Thinking more about Steve's ending. It would have been cooler if he was a little late coming back and his response was I had a date. A nice callback without ruining his or Peggy's characters.

I still kind of hate that Natasha was killed because she was the least explored avenger. I would be fine with them maybe bringing a Natasha from an earlier timeline or universe forward but if it was something they wanted to do they would have with Tony as well.

Edited May 23, 2019 by blugirlami21

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, blugirlami21 said:

Thinking more about Steve's ending. It would have been cooler if he was a little late coming back and his response was I had a date. A nice callback without ruining his or Peggy's characters.

That would have been nearly perfect. I honestly don't understand why they regressed his character and had him pining for her throughout the film, but since they did, having him get his date and come back would've worked for me. 

[Raja]

When producers were saying "all life" was snapped away I didn't think that they meant it. So for a scene of birds chirping we pretend that  some animals don't reproduce at a much faster rate than humans. So we get to Professor Hulk cleaning up all the collateral damage. Story wise I just wish they leave it alone. We might get the answer in Spider-Man Far From Home.

NBC just had a series were people returned from disappearing without aging and that was just one plane load, not the entire universe. It will be messy no matter what instructions Dr Banner gives the stones. Not limited to new partnerships forming in the five year gap. Jobs being filled by a generation which might be displaced as room is found for returnees. Property  trying to be reclaimed by original owners etc.

Since it was shown the happily ever after remains just another person's head canon. Where as the mess gives us another chance at a future Zemo. And even if everything was put back in place someone will ask why didn't Professor Hulk eliminate  cancer or cure their pet issue when he had the stones.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

When producers were saying "all life" was snapped away I didn't think that they meant it.

While they consistently keep reiterating that they did, and while also never even acknowledging the ramifications for the rest of the universe.

From a storytelling standpoint, I think the biggest issues have come from them allowing Thanos to make the snap.  If they hadn't done that, I don't think the scope of their story would have gotten quite so far away from them.  They basically went a step too far... for shock value, not for storytelling value.  And if they had kept the scope to something that would be more inline with a 2-3 hour movie, they still could have used Time Travel and creating the mulitverse to stop him, but it would have eliminated so many of the unanswerable questions if they hadn't been so hot to kill everyone.  And when you have to spend countless interviews and AMAs trying to 'explain' your movie, that's generally a pretty clear indication of a failure in the storytelling.  It was still a very pretty movie, though. 

[clack]

The most I expect of a MCU movie is that it makes at least some dramatic sense in the moment. None of the movies can hold up to scrutiny if you think about them afterwards.

They all deal in impossibilities. Super soldier serum made from an implausibly  unreplicable formula? Radioactive spiders bestowing super powers?  Kung fu that enables tiny Russian women to defeat multiple  military-trained men twice their size in hand-to-hand combat?

They wanted to give Steve Rogers a sentimental send-off. So maybe the time-travel aspects don't make strict logical sense, but then again the very existence of Captain America doesn't make logical sense.

YMMV on whether Steve returning to the past makes dramatic or emotional sense. It satisfied me.

[Wynterwolf]

Man, now I can't stop thinking about what COULD have been if they had stuck with character based storytelling and ended the IW cliffhanger on the team finding out just what Thanos had planned (because Nebula and Gamora are uniquely qualified to tell them that).  And then Endgame could have been about what they had to do to stop him (together, as a team, as Steve said). 

We could have seen some of Bruce and the Hulk recovering and making peace with each other, we could have seen Steve, Nat, Bucky and Sam working as a team, we could have seen Tony finally realizing that his fear-based slide into fascism in CW was not the best approach for his ultimate goal of protecting those he loved. 

Vision  could even still have died in EG, and Wanda could have gone ballistic and she could have had a actual story arc about that.  And we could have seen Shuri and her discussing possibilities as part of the epilogue.

Quill and Gamora going for the Soul stone would have been heart-wrenching and it would actually made sense for them to have been the ones to go there.

They could have had a helluva time convincing Strange to let them use the Time Stone in the time heist, but with Tony and Bruce making sense, he could still have realized that it was the best choice (creating the mulitverse vs letting Thanos win). 

And then Nebula and Gamora could have been the ones to decide what to do with Thanos after he was defeated, maybe with Thor's help. 

CurrentTimeLineLoki could still have died in the same way, but 2012Loki could still have escaped with the tesseract,..

So many possibilities for character growth and character-based endings. 

I still want to see Steve going forth among the stars, helping other worlds... and he and Bucky could have had an actual conversation, where Bucky decided to stay on earth to help the new Cap!Sam, and we could have gotten Hero!Sam to make him getting the shield from Steve the major moment it deserved to be, and Natasha could have even gone off with Steve if they really wanted her out of the MCU. 

And Tony could have made the choice to retire, finally realizing that he needed to step back and let the next generation take the lead, because that was the smart thing for him to do.   And then the epilogue could have been his and Pepper's wedding.  Still plenty of room for blood and guts and tears and sorrow, but also hope, and focusing forward.  

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, clack said:

The most I expect of a MCU movie is that it makes at least some dramatic sense in the moment. None of the movies can hold up to scrutiny if you think about them afterwards.

They all deal in impossibilities. Super soldier serum made from an implausibly  unreplicable formula? Radioactive spiders bestowing super powers?  Kung fu that enables tiny Russian women to defeat multiple  military-trained men twice their size in hand-to-hand combat?

They wanted to give Steve Rogers a sentimental send-off. So maybe the time-travel aspects don't make strict logical sense, but then again the very existence of Captain America doesn't make logical sense.

YMMV on whether Steve returning to the past makes dramatic or emotional sense. It satisfied me.

This. I've already said that if I wanted to ruminate on the impact of mass bereavement and confusion, I'd watch The Leftovers again. If I wanted to watch something that explores all the possible consequences of time travel, the paradoxes and logical inconsistencies I'd watch... well, any time travel movie that asks you to think about paradoxes rather than outright saying, 'don't worry about all that, just enjoy'.

What I wanted with Endgame was a really great, emotional and action packed finale to this era of the MCU, and I feel like I got that.

[Jeebus Cripes]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

This. I've already said that if I wanted to ruminate on the impact of mass bereavement and confusion, I'd watch The Leftovers again. If I wanted to watch something that explores all the possible consequences of time travel, the paradoxes and logical inconsistencies I'd watch... well, any time travel movie that asks you to think about paradoxes rather than outright saying, 'don't worry about all that, just enjoy'.

What I wanted with Endgame was a really great, emotional and action packed finale to this era of the MCU, and I feel like I got that.

Damn, I really wish my scumbag brain could just chill like this. I'm all hung up on whys and what-ifs. 

[supposebly]

I can't recall any movie, book, or TV show with time travel that made any sense as soon as you think about it. It just doesn't work.

So, I can't really get too upset about logic and character assassinations in movies that have magic suits, magic potions that make people invincible, others that make them big and angry, and flying hammers. Just the little I read about the story lines in the original comic books make any issues this had, well, trivial.

They went for emotional, and sacrificial, and had to give a few characters something approximating an emotional arc and an actual ending, so I'm good. To be honest, I thought that Civil War made a lot less sense emotionally. For Steve AND Tony.

Logic? Who cares? It's time travel and superheroes! 

The real tragedy? Thor's dad bod. That's all I have. And I was a bit surprised that he can get fat to begin with. I mean I've never seen him work out either. How is that for logic?

I enjoyed it.

[festivus]

50 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Damn, I really wish my scumbag brain could just chill like this. I'm all hung up on whys and what-ifs. 

I think I could have been chill if it wasn't for Steve. I wish they had just killed him and left Tony alive. But then they wouldn't have gotten to pull the ol' switcheroo on us cause most of us thought Steve was gonna be the goner. But even as much as I used to fear for Steve's death, I would have preferred it.

[Danny Franks]

49 minutes ago, supposebly said:

The real tragedy? Thor's dad bod. That's all I have. And I was a bit surprised that he can get fat to begin with. I mean I've never seen him work out either. How is that for logic?

I feel like Thor had to work really hard to get fat. Similar to Cap not really being able to get drunk because his metabolism is too supercharged, I reckon Thor's Asgardian genes are always trying to revert to 'shredded', and he has to truly abuse his body just to get a bit of a belly.

It would be a funny beat in Guardians 3, to show that he's gone back to being his usual ripped self, seemingly without doing anything. Quill would hate that, Drax would genuinely admire it.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Kel Varnsen]

19 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I feel like Thor had to work really hard to get fat. Similar to Cap not really being able to get drunk because his metabolism is too supercharged, I reckon Thor's Asgardian genes are always trying to revert to 'shredded', and he has to truly abuse his body just to get a bit of a belly.

But most Asgardians aren't completely ripped like Thor is and are still super strong. So how does Thor even work out especially on earth? Plus consider that on earth he has access to Earth based junk food then maybe I can see him getting fat.

[Wynterwolf]

[Jeebus Cripes]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But most Asgardians aren't completely ripped like Thor is and are still super strong. So how does Thor even work out especially on earth? Plus consider that on earth he has access to Earth based junk food then maybe I can see him getting fat.

Two words: Little Debbie. 

[benteen]

11 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I liked the scene between The Ancient One and Bruce a great deal.

[Bruinsfan]

Me too, her appearance was an unexpected delight. And I loved how quickly she formed deep sympathy for Bruce.

I really hope she reappears in the next Dr. Strange movie through flashbacks, Time Stone shenanigans, or whatever it takes to get more Tilda Swinton on my movie screen.

[benteen]

Yeah, Ancient One and Bruce had a really good (non-romantic) chemistry together.  I also liked seeing another off-camera moment from the Avengers with her defending the Sanctum during the invasion.

[mary2013]

On 5/23/2019 at 11:00 AM, Wynterwolf said:

While they consistently keep reiterating that they did, and while also never even acknowledging the ramifications for the rest of the universe.

From a storytelling standpoint, I think the biggest issues have come from them allowing Thanos to make the snap.  If they hadn't done that, I don't think the scope of their story would have gotten quite so far away from them.  They basically went a step too far... for shock value, not for storytelling value.  And if they had kept the scope to something that would be more inline with a 2-3 hour movie, they still could have used Time Travel and creating the mulitverse to stop him, but it would have eliminated so many of the unanswerable questions if they hadn't been so hot to kill everyone.  And when you have to spend countless interviews and AMAs trying to 'explain' your movie, that's generally a pretty clear indication of a failure in the storytelling.  It was still a very pretty movie, though. 

I disagree with this. Why film one of Marvel's biggest comic book stories, and then end it half way through?  Thanos succeeded and the Avengers failed. If you're going to switch it around, why bother.  Pick another story. 

[Dee]

Box Office: 'Avengers: Endgame' Faces Uphill Battle to Catch All-Time 'Avatar' Record

Quote

In spite of a massive four weeks at the box office that has left the Marvel Studios title with $2.62 billion in worldwide ticket sales, Endgame faces an uphill battle, according to industry experts.

“It’s slowed down more than we all expected,” says Shawn Robbins, chief analyst at BoxOffice Media, who, after the film's first weekend, had optimistically forecast Endgame crossing Avatar’s record in mid-June. He has since moved back his prediction to Labor Day, if it hits the record at all. Robbins notes that "no movie had opened on that level, globally.”

“Avatar was all about the marathon and now it’s about the sprint,” says Paul Dergarabedian, senior media analyst at ComScore, noting that the films' releases could not be more opposite.

While Avatar's rise to the top was gradual — spending over 60 weeks in theaters and receiving a late summer re-release more than half-of-a-year after its December debut — Endgame did a "lion's share of its business in the first few weeks," says Robbins.

It is also important to note the growth of the international box office as a major difference between the 2009 and 2019 marketplaces. Avatar’s $204 million in Chinese ticket sales made up 7 percent of the movie’s total global box office, while Endgame’s $608 million accounts for 23 percent of the movie’s global box office to date.

[VCRTracking]

Avengers: Endgame’ Provides a Roadmap for Healing from Psychological Trauma

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Avengers: Endgame’ Provides a Roadmap for Healing from Psychological Trauma

Yikes.  That is one seriously fucked up (and self-serving) view of Endgame's handling of 'trauma recovery'.  

[blueray]

On 5/23/2019 at 6:28 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

But most Asgardians aren't completely ripped like Thor is and are still super strong. So how does Thor even work out especially on earth? Plus consider that on earth he has access to Earth based junk food then maybe I can see him getting fat.

I think that it would be hard, however if he wanted to he could have found something that was heavy enough. Thor obviously didn't care about it anymore. So lack of exercise and bad eating habits would cause that. That being said he may still be "healthier" then a human that does that diet. He is able to still fight as seen in the movie.

I want a scene with him and Quill working out. And Thor being able to lift way more weights lol.

[VCRTracking]

[anna0852]

That must have been the day they shot the funeral. 

[Bruinsfan]

5 hours ago, blueray said:

I want a scene with him and Quill working out. And Thor being able to lift way more weights lol.

Thor's probably more than 500 times as strong as a human being of his build. I'd imagine he can lift more with his tongue than Quill can backlift.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Bruinsfan

[ChromaKelly]

I saw Endgame again tonight and I am okay with most of it except - you guessed it - Steve's ending. I don't want to beat a dead horse and rehash all the whys. Most of the previous comments here capture why I am unhappy with it. A comment upthread brought up the notion that there was pressure from somewhere to make sure Steve has a female love interest and I can totally see that. I'm wondering they also wanted to kill off the Stucky shipping. Steve blew up the Avengers for Bucky, fought like hell for him, saw Bucky turn to dust in front of his eyes, and not one mention of wanting to get him back? There were several Peggy callbacks in the movie, like hey? Remember her? Zero mention of Bucky is finally healed, they are reunited, when bam, he's taken from Steve again. Even if they kept it to just friends, it makes no sense for there to be no mention of Bucky by Steve, given that TWS and CW exist. For that matter, Sam gets nothing either.
OK, besides that, I truly do like the movie and it does give closure to the Avengers. Couldn't help but cry at Tony's death again, and during the credits. An era is over.
One other thing I thought of - shouldn't Nebula have known that she shouldn't have gone back to a time and place where she exists? That her mind is essentially backed up to the cloud and it could cause conflicts? And Nebula does seem to know how Thanos got the Soul Stone, and she doesn't tell Clint and Nat?

[Jeebus Cripes]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Anyone know who the fella in the mocap suit is (the one who isn't Ruffalo)? 

46 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

One other thing I thought of - shouldn't Nebula have known that she shouldn't have gone back to a time and place where she exists? That her mind is essentially backed up to the cloud and it could cause conflicts? And Nebula does seem to know how Thanos got the Soul Stone, and she doesn't tell Clint and Nat?

I guess she didn't consider the cloud, but it was pretty damned shady not mentioning Gamora and the Soul Stone. 

[Perfect Xero]

I've decided that the only thing that makes sense is that: 1. Widow was the one who assigned the missions. 2. Gamora told Widow what she suspected/knew about the Soul Stone test. 3. Widow specifically picked herself and Hawkeye for that mission with the intent to sacrifice herself and told no one else knowing that they "don't trade lives", and any surprise she showed was just her being a super spy.

I think this is the only way to explain serial killer Hawkeye being brought back into the fold, and the two of them being chosen for a space mission on an unknown planet.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

One other thing I thought of - shouldn't Nebula have known that she shouldn't have gone back to a time and place where she exists? That her mind is essentially backed up to the cloud and it could cause conflicts? 

Keep in mind that Nebula's tech "upgrades" were done against her wil. So she might not completely understand how they all work.

[frenchtoast]

I think that Nebula knew that Gamora didn't leave Vormir, but I don't think she knew that Thanos killed her. She could assume that Thanos let her die/didn't try to save her. She wasn't there and Thanos didn't explain the whole soul for a soul thing. Perhaps Nebula figured that having a team that wasn't hell bent on destroying the universe would figure out a way to get both out alive. And maybe that's why Widow and Hawkeye went because they knew they were a formidable team that had worked together for so long and they weren't going to let anything happen to the other. 

[cambridgeguy]

21 minutes ago, frenchtoast said:

I think that Nebula knew that Gamora didn't leave Vormir, but I don't think she knew that Thanos killed her. She could assume that Thanos let her die/didn't try to save her. She wasn't there and Thanos didn't explain the whole soul for a soul thing. Perhaps Nebula figured that having a team that wasn't hell bent on destroying the universe would figure out a way to get both out alive. And maybe that's why Widow and Hawkeye went because they knew they were a formidable team that had worked together for so long and they weren't going to let anything happen to the other. 

She had to at least suspect the challenge wouldn't be a physical one.  Why else would you send your two weakest team members? 

Speaking of Hawkeye, I guess he's off the hook for his murderous rampage?  Even if Hulk revived all of his victims (which seems unlikely) he's still a murderer.

[festivus]

7 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

A comment upthread brought up the notion that there was pressure from somewhere to make sure Steve has a female love interest and I can totally see that. I'm wondering they also wanted to kill off the Stucky shipping.

I wonder about this too. I do think they were like, we have to get rid of Steve, how do we do that? Then make many mentions of Peggy to remind people because there are people who only go see these at the theater and probably don't really remember CA: TFA that well. Even so they could still have Steve mention Sam and Bucky at that meeting since they were people he loves that were actually dusted. As far as he knew at that point, Peggy was dead and gone forever. Even so there is part of me that does think they want to kill the idea that Captain America is gay. To that I say so what if there are people that think he is? What does it matter? It's probably only a small percentage of the people that go see these movies. It's definitely not hurting their bottom line.

32 minutes ago, frenchtoast said:

I think that Nebula knew that Gamora didn't leave Vormir, but I don't think she knew that Thanos killed her. She could assume that Thanos let her die/didn't try to save her. She wasn't there and Thanos didn't explain the whole soul for a soul thing. Perhaps Nebula figured that having a team that wasn't hell bent on destroying the universe would figure out a way to get both out alive. And maybe that's why Widow and Hawkeye went because they knew they were a formidable team that had worked together for so long and they weren't going to let anything happen to the other. 

I think it's probably mostly this but I do think Nebula at least had an inkling of what might happen. I think to her that it would be acceptable outcome if it meant they could stop Thanos. She's still the Nebula that had to grow up with him and knows that sacrifices will have to be made to stop him. She'll still do what has to be done but at least now she's become someone who will feel bad about it. Nebula was one of the best things about this movie, I truly love her character.

[VCRTracking]

I still love how they re-created the end the 2012 Avengers: