Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[VCRTracking]

13 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I will have to rewatch the movie, but that I am pretty sure that article got it wrong. The Ancient One said that the problem is if the Avengers lose or aren't able to return the stones to exact time then her world in the past would be left without a defense. I am pretty sure she never mentioned being worried about creating alternative timelines. Bruce promises that they will and if Strange didn't believe that they could, why did he give the Time Stone to Thanos? Strange's decision to give Thanos is what convinces her to hand over the Time Stone. She realizes that Strange must know that it is the only way to defeat Thanos and that the stones would be returned without damaging the past.  

Your mostly right. She says "The Infinity Stones this may benefit your reality but not my new one. In this new branch reality, without the time stone the forces of darkness would overrun the world." Bruce then says once they're done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own timeline at the moment it was taken, so in that reality, it never left"

Edited April 28, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Sakura12]

They're going into some Game of Throne territory here, since Sharon made out with her uncle. 

How did Cap not tell his wife that Shield was taken over by Hydra? Could he really live with Peggy and not tell her that? It works better being an alternate timeline and he kept a pym particle so he could return to the spot he left all those years ago. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Sakura12

[Wynterwolf]

Just now, Sakura12 said:

They're going into some Game of Throne territory here, since Sharon made out with her uncle. 

How did Cap not tell his wife that Shield was taken over by Hydra? Could he really live with Peggy and not tell her that? 

Yeah, don't go there... that way lies madness.  How could he happily take his kids to the zoo, while Zola continue to torture Bucky, how could he casually sit down to dinner with his family on December 16, 1991... the list goes on.  That Steve would either be eaten alive by guilt, or a monster.  

[VCRTracking]

9 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They're going into some Game of Throne territory here, since Sharon made out with her uncle. 

How did Cap not tell his wife that Shield was taken over by Hydra? Could he really live with Peggy and not tell her that? 

Who's to say he didn't?  As I said exposing Hydra would just create an alternate timeline with a history Cap would have no knowledge of. Maybe the best strategy was preventing Hydra from doing even more damage than they could have. Fighting them secretly from within, like Sydney Bristow and SD6 in ALIAS.

Edited April 28, 2019 by VCRTracking

[anna0852]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They're going into some Game of Throne territory here, since Sharon made out with her uncle. 

How did Cap not tell his wife that Shield was taken over by Hydra? Could he really live with Peggy and not tell her that? It works better being an alternate timeline and he kept a pym particle so he could return to the spot he left all those years ago. 

I'm absolutely going with alt-time line. Because then I get to keep my wonderful Agent Carter-verse along with the MCU that followed AND I can be happy Cap and Peggy got a happy ending after all. 

I assume in the happy ending timeline Cap made sure to retrieve Bucky, support Peggy's rise in SHIELD, keep HYDRA from rising, etc.... And after Peggy has peacfully passed away and when Cap know the end of his time is near he uses his last Pym particle to come back and pass on his shield to Sam.

And I assume he told Bucky about his plan long before they all walked out to the woods. That was clearly a forever goodbye, which would make no sense when they all expected Cap to be on the platform again in about 5 seconds.

[ramble]

I didn’t love it or hate it. It was good. It was fine. I got tired of fat, drunk Thor. It was funny for awhile but it ran on too long. Same with Professor Hulk. Too much of him in that form and his hands seemed out of proportion to his head which seriously distracted me. I love me some Cap and Peggy however that ending fell flat for me. I did not like Bucky barely interacting with Cap. I’m not a Stucky fan girl in the sense I want them to be a couple but Bucky has been Steve’s best friend for years. They should have had a couple of moments. 

Tony and Peter had nice moments. Little Morgan was adorable. I have always liked Hawkeye but I really loved him in this. He worked for me and his final scene with Nat was well done if infuriating. We getting a Black Widow movie now but she’s dead? Ugh. Her death was the one that surprised me. 

The chyron of Five (dramatic pause) Years (another dramatic pause) Later felt a little weird to me. I realized I’d really like to see a movie about those five years. Probably not what I was supposed to be thinking of in that moment. 

Maybe when I watch it at home eventually it will have a different impact. I saw it with a dud of an audience. No reaction when Steve picked up Thor’s hammer or really any shared reaction. Avengers Assemble got nothing! And someone brought a two year old to the theater who of course cried with all the noise and stimulation. The mom could be heard saying “c’mon just cuddle and take a nap” several times until someone asked her to leave. 

I enjoyed the portals opening and everyone showing up. But why the crap couldn’t Bucky have spoken to Cap first? I get the “on your left” reference but it still frustrated me. I do look forward to being able to pause and pay attention to everyone who showed up for the fight. It was too much to take in during that scene. I liked Wanda’s attack on Thanos. It felt right. The girl team up felt a bit forced to me. I enjoyed seeing it but it felt put together rather than naturally formed and the three women I saw the movie with (who liked it a whole lot more than me) all pointed that out as well. I know the big end scene had emotional impact but, oddly, I knew that logically more than I felt it. I expected Tony to die, and honestly Steve as well, so maybe that’s why it didn’t have the same punch. When Clint saw his wife calling his phone that hit me harder. Idk. I read reviews of people loving it, I read here about loving it, my friends loved it... Maybe I’m am just a silly old bear. 

[Guest]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:05 PM, Sakura12 said:

They're going into some Game of Throne territory here, since Sharon made out with her uncle. 

How did Cap not tell his wife that Shield was taken over by Hydra? Could he really live with Peggy and not tell her that? It works better being an alternate timeline and he kept a pym particle so he could return to the spot he left all those years ago. 

Until the Russo’s or Feige say differently I’m sticking with this version. When Howard walks in on Tony he is looking for Zola. There’s no way Steve would have stayed quiet while Zola grew Hydra within Shield. 

Of course, now I really want to see the timeline where Steve, Howard and Peggy found Shield. Maybe they will do that on What If.

On 4/27/2019 at 9:15 PM, anna0852 said:

And I assume he told Bucky about his plan long before they all walked out to the woods. That was clearly a forever goodbye, which would make no sense when they all expected Cap to be on the platform again in about 5 seconds.

Sebastian Stan did a really nice job of showing that Bucky knew Steve wasn’t coming back. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Guest

[ramble]

[Silver Raven]

Sharon is not Steve's biological niece, she's his wife's niece.  There's nothing incestuous about it.

[scarynikki12]

Saw it again tonight.

My new mission in life is to get my hands on a print of Cap facing down Thanos and his army before Avengers Assemble. That shot is legitimately one of the most beautiful moments I've ever seen in a movie. I need it on my wall.

[Jeebus Cripes]

On 4/25/2019 at 11:59 PM, shireenbamfatheon said:

Lots of great moments, but I'm really disappointed by both Tony and Steve's arcs and feel that it'd have been better if their fates had been reversed. We've seen Tony sacrifice himself in nearly every Avengers movie and I really expected Steve to take on that role this time. But nope, it was Tony having to sacrifice himself once again and this time for good, leaving his kid to have to grow up without a father just like he did. It just felt needlessly cruel, especially when Steve's arc also contradicted everything up till now. 

I know Peggy is a fan favorite, but Steve's decision to ditch everyone, including his BFF Bucky who's also a man out of time and a lot more traumatized than Steve ever was, to be with her invalidated his entire journey throughout the MCU and rang hollow. "I'm with you till the end of the line", "The man who wanted family and stability died in the ice 75 years ago", "When I see a situation headed south, I can't look the other way," the Sharon kiss, his friendship with Sam, his bond with the rest of the Avengers -  all this development to show that he'd found a new family, place, and purpose, was tossed aside so he could be with a woman he knew for 2-3 years and who went on to have a happy marriage of her own with someone else. Steve tore the Avengers apart and nearly killed Tony for Bucky, reunited with him briefly, lost him again to Thanos for five years, and then he finally got him back and they barely exchanged two words before Steve left him for good. 

Peggy moved on and went on to have a life of her own, and so should Steve. If they couldn't even give him that, I'd much rather he'd died defeating Thanos and giving Tony the opportunity to be present for his daughter's childhood. RDJ wouldn't even have needed to be in any more movies since his character had already retired for Pepper and Morgan.

Additionally, Tony telling his dad that he did his best was some grade A BS. A man who never even bothered telling his son he liked him certainly did not do his best. His emotional abuse was the root of 99% of Tony's issues and insecurities. I really expected Tony to tell Howard that his father taught him how not to raise one's child. I'm not here for him suddenly empathizing with his abusive and neglectful father when Howard did nothing to earn it.
 

Word to all of the above, and I would love this post a thousand times over if I could.

On 4/26/2019 at 10:19 PM, Wynterwolf said:

At least I'm not the only one that thought Cap's ending made no sense after I started thinking about it...

This article sums up all my feels really well. It's a shame, too, because I was enjoying the shit out of this film up until Steve's dumbass time travel shenanigans. I adore Peggy, but it feels so out of character to me that Steve would chose to flake out on everyone in his life just to get that damned dance with her. The motivation here is purely selfish. Peggy lived a full life without him, and this ending is a disservice to both characters, IMO. Also, I don't buy the theory that Steve was her husband all along in this timeline for one second. That's just a hot damned mess of retconning, and just, no. No. I never thought I would say this, but holy shit, I think Steve dying would sit better with me. I feel like they ruined his arc, and it pisses me off to no end.

This is also bugging me, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but why in the hell could they not have just used the time machine Tony built to snatch up previous versions of the dearly departed? After the timestones were restored at the end by Steve, could they not have just gone back to before Tony, Nat, Vision, etc, were killed and bring them into the now? That shit worked like a charm for Gamora. I mean, they already created multiple diverging timelines, might as well do a few more, nay?

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

Sharon is not Steve's biological niece, she's his wife's niece.  There's nothing incestuous about it.

Let's say for the sake of argument that it's true. So he kisses Sharon and acts like he wants to move on with her, but then goes back to the past to marry Peggy thus erasing the marriage she had with Souza or whoever she got with in the other timeline? Never bothers to check in with Sharon after the Snap is reversed, and after she stuck out her neck for him, Sam, and Bucky in Civil War?

That is not the Steve Rogers I know. Even if you don't like Sharon or ship them, that's just wrong.

Shipping and time traveling issues aside, it's a complete betrayal of Steve's character. Post Winter Soldier, he made it clear that he wasn't the same guy that went into the ice anymore. He had made a new life for himself. Sure, he still had a place in his heart for Peggy, but he was HAPPY that she moved on and had a good life. 

Plus, he's been living in the present for years, he really wanted to go back to the 40s with boiled food and polio?! Geez.

Other than going down in battle, a better ending for him would have been just retiring and giving the shield to Sam, then going off to find a life for himself IN THE PRESENT. They could leave whoever he hooks up with ambiguous. That way all the shippers (except the Steggy ones) can just imagine whatever ending they wanted.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Perfect Xero]

Quicksilver: Sacrificed himself to save Clint.

Black Widow: Sacrificed herself in place of Clint.

Iron Man: Snapped the Infinity Stones after Clint ran around holding them for 10 minutes instead of putting the damn glove on and doing it himself.

You're the worst, Barton.

[starri]

[Crs97]

I am still crying.

 Tony Stark was my favorite character,  and Pepper and Tony were my favorite couple.  One of my frustrations was how Tony always seemed to have to prove himself to the other Avengers - they happily used the equipment he built for them, lived in the compound he provided, asked him to figure out complicated stuff only he could understand; but they were quick to call him selfish and bad and not worthy to be one of them.  So yet again he has to sacrifice while they (minus Nat) get to live out their happy lives. 

Well crap.

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Your mostly right. She says "The Infinity Stones this may benefit your reality but not my new one. In this new branch reality, without the time stone the forces of darkness would overrun the world." Bruce then says once they're done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own timeline at the moment it was taken, so in that reality, it never left"

I saw it yesterday but, was a bit emotional at this point. Do you remember what Hulk tells Steve as he's getting on the platform? He warms him that he has to return the stones to the exact time they were taken. Does he also warn him not to do anything else or or could cause issues? I thought he did.

[SimoneS]

One comment about Loki and Tesseract; When Loki stole it and escape, it likely changed the timeline i.e., the events that unfolded leading to Thanos. However, since when the Avengers returned to the future everything was the same, we know that at some point "someone" went back to that moment and prevented Loki from escaping with the Tesseract, thereby putting the events back into the order in which they originally occurred.

Loki stealing the Tesseract does appear to be the backdoor pilot to his tv show. If true, that Loki is still an angry murderous ass, but maybe by the time his show ends, he matures into the man who sacrificed himself for his brother. I can see that Loki knowing that there was only  one out of million chances to defeat Thanos making the decision to go back to that moment to prevent himself from escaping with the Tesseract. At least, that is how I would have the story play out if I was Marvel, after all it brings the maximum drama.

Edited April 28, 2019 by SimoneS

[Wynterwolf]

Alright, so the ‘Steve creates an alternate timeline’ isn’t working for me either, and the main sticking point I keep having with any ‘Steve goes back into the past to stay and live a happy life’ scenario, is that eventually there will be 2 Steves, because he’s abandoning his own timeline for one when another Steve already exists. And in order for him to get the Shield he had with him, his younger self would have to be unthawed, because anything else is just too convoluted (getting more vibranium, having Howard make another one, etc).  And that’s just too weird for me.  If someone else can figure out how to make that work in a feasible way, I’m all ears. 

So, new theory (one that I, at least, can live with and I think is still canon compatible at this point in time. And yes, my brain came up with this at 3 o’clock in the fucking morning, thanks a LOT Kevin Fiege):

Steve was somehow kidnapped when he went to take the stones back.  OldSteve that shows up on the bench is a Skrull, and they did get a shield from somewhere in the past (because they knew they had to give a seemingly plausible reason for Steve’s absence).  That’s why (I think, correct me if I’m wrong) we never actually saw the full face of the man Peggy was dancing with, because she was dancing with her ‘not Steve’ husband.  And if I’m remembering wrong, and we did see Steve, I am fully okay with him going back to give her that dance, I think that would be romantic and fitting and totally in character for him, but not him staying.  But, if he did go back to the ‘40s to give her a dance, maybe that’s where they grabbed him. 

That also puts a different spin on all of OldSteve’s interaction (though this is not to take anything away from Cap!Sam, I absolutely support that 1000%), and a different spin on Steve’s goodbyes, especially him telling Bucky he’d be back.  I just can’t see him saying specifically that if he had already decided not to come back.  I’m also leaning heavily towards that Bucky being a Skrull too, because of his “I’ll miss you”, and also because he’s the one that points out OldSteve on the bench, but doesn’t go over to him. 

So there, are you happy now brain?  Can you shut up about this now??? (and yes, honestly I am happier believing Steve was kidnapped, than trying to make sense of what they strongly implied he did.  I also fully recognize and accept the irony of me using the words “too convoluted” earlier). 

[SimoneS]

There was one plot hole that surprised me. After Thanos tapped into Nebula's memories and found everything that occurred in the future, I expected him to blow up at Gamora, but nothing. He only focused Nebula's betrayal, but Gamora is the one whose betrayal ultimately contributed to his doom. I suppose they didn't want to pull on that thread since it would mean that he would have to turn on her and it would have been difficult to him bringing her to the future with him.

It was a deep moment when Nebula sadly closed Thanos' eyes after his death. He had emotionally tormented and physically abused her and Gamora for most of their lives, but they still loved him. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by SimoneS

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

So there, are you happy now brain?  Can you shut up about this now??? (and yes, honestly I am happier believing Steve was kidnapped, than trying to make sense of what they strongly implied he did.  I also fully recognize and accept the irony of me using the words “too convoluted” earlier). 

If I think to much about the time travel, results, etc., I just end up with a headache.

I'm okay with Tony and Nat being dead and Steve's ending.  I would think the success of Wonder Woman, Black Panther, and Aqua Man, has shown Hollywood they don't have to keep recycling the same super heroes over and over again.

I loved Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, but I was okay with his death to.

[ChromaKelly]

I'm also having a hard time with There Are Two Caps Running Around That Timeline thing. The only way I can reconcile that is the Cap that went back in time stays only as long as that timeline's Cap is frozen, and he comes back when that Cap gets unthawed.

[blueray]

I really enjoyed this movie. It did play off a lot of the established plot points and great character development. Such as Steve holding the hammer. As sad was Tony's death it did play off for a great character moment and complete his arc. One think I was wondering was why Dr. Strange couldn't just levitate it get it snap without anyone having to wear it? Maybe I'm thinking of more Harry Potter, but that seems like something he could have done. But I guess that takes away the awesomeness of what was established in the IW that this was the one way and why he traded the stone for Tony's life. As he needed to be alive in order to be at the right point of time (and location) to be able to grab the stones five years later.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the use of Thor actually. It makes sense that he'd turn to alcohol. The guy has lost his whole family, his home and most of his people. He had the opportunity to save half the universe but missed. He then seeked revenge but it didn't bring anyone back.  I'm looking forward to seeing him approve and continue on with the Guardians.

I love the time travel stuff, always fun to see scenes of the characters from a different point of view (especially when they are seeing them selves). Loved the added scenes as well like Thor talking to his mother.

My only complains are very minor. It did seem like Captain Marvel was sort of just thrown in there. She was the reason Tony (and Nebula) made it home which is good. Also she comes into the final battle but is instantly defeated. But I guess that's okay as I'm glad the focus was on the established characters. I'm not sure Steve's story at the end makes any sense as it would possibly change the timeline to much, unless he always was married to Carter. Also I (and my whole theater) was surprised when there was no after credit scene.  You'd think they would advertise  Spiderman but I guess they wanted it to seem like the finally.

Anyhow, I loved this movie and it would get a perfect score it I were to rate it.

Edited April 28, 2019 by blueray

[raven]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

. So he kisses Sharon and acts like he wants to move on with her

He kissed her but I don't know if that meant he wanted to move on with her, just that he was ready to try dating someone.

I was never squicked out by the Sharon thing though.   Steve was attracted to her before he knew who she was, not because she was Peggy's niece.   I do agree that "can't go back Steve" was a bit easily replaced in this movie with "I can't move on Steve" but it made sense to me because of their failure to stop Thanos.  That's not something you brush past easily.

At first I thought Steve settled with Peggy in 1970. He had to go back to 1970 to return the stone.    She still has his picture on her desk.  Sure she would be older than him (though she looked the same age).  Maybe her husband has died. 

When I thought about it more, I have to go with alternate realities.   The time travel discussion with our heroes (before they go) makes it clear that they're saying not to go back on your own timeline and change things, that will screw things up even more in their current reality.  Yet changes do happen (Loki escaping with the stone, Steve telling other Steve about Bucky; even Tony's conversation with Howard could have caused some kind of future ripple effect; Thor talking to Frigga), which presumably causes different branches of the time tree.   Our heroes cannot go back and undo those things, because they will be messing with their own histories (Steve cannot prevent himself from talking to past Steve.  Tony could not prevent himself from talking to Howard, etc.) Nebula shot a Nebula from a different time stream, which is why "our" Nebula didn't die.  If she had shot a past self, then current Nebula should have died.  It's actually impossible to put the time stones back at the exact time they were taken, because those acts are in our current Avengers' pasts.

Remember, the Avengers only went back because they needed to gather the stones and snap everyone back to existence, not to re-set themselves and the past five years.  They couldn't, it would have devastating consequences on their present and Tony didn't want to lose Morgan.

So presumably there is a timeline where Steve could be with Peggy but it is NOT the timeline we have been watching through the various movies and TV shows.  None of that history was changed. 

[TigerLynx]

16 minutes ago, blueray said:

Loved the added scenes as well like Thor talking to his mother.

I liked Thor's mother telling him to eat a salad.

[Crs97]

31 minutes ago, raven said:

Remember, the Avengers only went back because they needed to gather the stones and snap everyone back to existence, not to re-set themselves and the past five years.  They couldn't, it would have devastating consequences on their present and Tony didn't want to lose Morgan.

So presumably there is a timeline where Steve could be with Peggy but it is NOT the timeline we have been watching through the various movies and TV shows.  None of that history was changed. 

So is this essentially string theory?  In any of these timelines, can Tony be bouncing grandbabies on his knee? 

[raven]

3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

So is this essentially string theory?  In any of these timelines, can Tony be bouncing grandbabies on his knee? 

Yep.  Though that's pretty much the extent of my timey wimey theorizing 😄

[dkb]

The movie definitely hit harder with me the second time I watched it. I was sobbing when the title card reads Voromir. 

Scarlett Johansson is not my favorite actress but she was great in this movie the whole way through. Trying so hard to hold it together after they realize the stones are gone, finding out about what Clint was up to, and then the "it's ok, let me go." 😭😭

And as soon as they start passing off the gauntlet I was tearing up, and was ugly crying while trying to be quiet. Till the end with Steve and Peggy dancing, 😢🥰.

I get all the reasons it falls apart with time travel but for me the emotional payoffs were satisfying that I really don't care to much about the inconsistencies. Still love reading all your theories though!

@Spartan Girl, as soon as I saw Ross at the funeral I thought about the fact you would hate it!

Edited April 28, 2019 by dkb

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, raven said:

So presumably there is a timeline where Steve could be with Peggy but it is NOT the timeline we have been watching through the various movies and TV shows.  None of that history was changed.

Yes, exactly... but then how does OldSteve show back up in the main timeline?  I mean you can go with OldSteve being from far enough in the future of that alternate timeline that a Stark has perfected not only time travel, but time travel between different alternate time lines, but... that's a lot of 'off screen' activity.  And it's still not a good look for the MCU timeline Steve abandoning everyone in his main timeline to create another timeline that still already has a Steve.  

Edited April 28, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

So is this essentially string theory?  In any of these timelines, can Tony be bouncing grandbabies on his knee? 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😭

[starri]

Boom.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, raven said:

He kissed her but I don't know if that meant he wanted to move on with her, just that he was ready to try dating someone.

 I was never squicked out by the Sharon thing though.   Steve was attracted to her before he knew who she was, not because she was Peggy's niece.   I do agree that "can't go back Steve" was a bit easily replaced in this movie with "I can't move on Steve" but it made sense to me because of their failure to stop Thanos.  That's not something you brush past easily.

At first I thought Steve settled with Peggy in 1970. He had to go back to 1970 to return the stone.    She still has his picture on her desk.  Sure she would be older than him (though she looked the same age).  Maybe her husband has died. 

Yeah, that doesn't really make it better if her husband just died.

I was among the minority that was fine with Steve dating Sharon. I wish they had just explored that more instead of this ending. The fact that Steve just basically leaves her high and dry without a thought makes me want to slap his pretty face. And/or the Russos.

[raven]

20 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

And it's still not a good look for the MCU timeline Steve abandoning everyone in his main timeline to create another timeline that still already has a Steve.  

He doesn't abandon them.  He returns 5 seconds after he left and gives Sam the shield.  Steve's original timeline has Sam, Bucky, Wanda, Scott, Bruce, the Wakandans, Thor and the Guardians - as Carol said, not everyone has the Avengers.  Steve trusts them to get the job done.  Somewhere along the line he's learned something about time travel (he's on the bench rather than in the machine).

There's a timeline for every possibility; there's definitely timelines where Steve has died.  There's one where Steve dies in the ice, where Steve is killed by Red Skull or during the experiment from skinnySteve to superSteve, where he dies in a bunch of different ways.  Maybe with the help of the the Ancient or Dr. Strange, Steve chooses a timeline that needs him, one where the universe would be worse off with no Steve, where because Hydra comes to power, every timeline is in danger.    Depending on when he arrives, maybe only Peggy knows the truth.  I don't think Steve would lie to her about anything. 

According to the events in Endgame, we can't say Steve can go back and change anything in the timeline of this past - Rhody suggests killing baby Thanos and Bruce shoots that down because *time travel rules*.  Anytime you go back though, you change something just by virtue of being there.   He can go back and change something in a different timeline without breaking *time travel rules*.  It also doesn't mean that in whatever time line he settles, things happen exactly the same as we saw in the movies.

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The fact that Steve just basically leaves her high and dry without a thought makes me want to slap his pretty face. And/or the Russos.

One kiss to me isn't leaving her high and dry.  She helped Steve because of who she is and because she thought it was the right thing to do, not because she was mooning over Steve. 

[Sakura12]

20 minutes ago, starri said:

Boom.

Yeah I just saw that, 1.2 billion in 5 days. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Sakura12

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, raven said:

There's a timeline for every possibility; there's definitely timelines where Steve has died.

And that's another issue, exactly when did he go back?  The scene at the end implied that it was around the late 40's-ish (though it also could have been any time before that), so did he sneak onto the Valkyrie, hide until AlternaSteve got rid of everyone and then killed his alternaself, so he could try to land the plane instead of crash it into the ice?   That's dark, man.  And that is some desperation to run away from your problems.

[loosy]

Holy Shit.

I wonder how long that one is going to hold up. The next Star Wars is the final one, too, isn´t it? Though momentum seemed to wane a  bit for that franchise.

Edited April 28, 2019 by loosy

[nilyank]

35 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yes, exactly... but then how does OldSteve show back up in the main timeline?  I mean you can go with OldSteve being from far enough in the future of that alternate timeline that a Stark has perfected not only time travel, but time travel between different alternate time lines, but... that's a lot of 'off screen' activity.  And it's still not a good look for the MCU timeline Steve abandoning everyone in his main timeline to create another timeline that still already has a Steve.  

Well, in Spiderman: Into the Spider-Verse, we know there was a machine created by Dr Ock that could go into the different timeline. In one MCU universes, Tony could look at the specs and have it perfected. It only took him a day to create a device to allow time travel.

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, nilyank said:

Well, in Spiderman: Into the Spider-Verse, we know there was a machine created by Dr Ock that could go into the different timeline. In one MCU universes, Tony could look at the specs and have it perfected. It only took him a day to create a device to allow time travel.

Yes, definitely possible.  But it's huge point to leave out of the narrative of the movie.  

[Enigma X]

I have said it in every television and movie forum that I like that  uses time travel: I love science fiction and fantasy but hate time travel plots. It is way too easy of a get out of jail card and the paradoxes it causes are just headaches. With that said, I know it is a major go to for the  science fiction and the fantasy genres. So, I live with it.

[VCRTracking]

If you can just change the past then they can go back and save Natasha and Tony. The only reason not to is you'd just create alternate timelines and not change the present. So either Steve is in a causal loop(if Peggy's letter thing is legit) and didn't interfere and change the past or he created an alternate timeline and somehow went back to his old one to give Sam his shield.

Edited April 28, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Vera]

 

 

1

Quote

Tony Stark was my favorite character,  and Pepper and Tony were my favorite couple.  One of my frustrations was how Tony always seemed to have to prove himself to the other Avengers - they happily used the equipment he built for them, lived in the compound he provided, asked him to figure out complicated stuff only he could understand; but they were quick to call him selfish and bad and not worthy to be one of them.  So yet again he has to sacrifice while they (minus Nat) get to live out their happy lives. 

They weren't living there for free. They couldn't be expected to be Avengers and earn to support the Avengers. Avenging is a fulltime job. Tony is incredibly privileged in that he inherited both his father's brains and most importantly, Stark Industries.

Tony could afford to bankroll the Avengers. He's a billionaire whose wealth is built on the blood of others.

Not once did the other Avengers ever call him selfish or not worthy to be one of them. Even after the Ultron debacle, they never blamed him or kicked him out. They were willing to die to protect the people who suffered due to his mistakes. 

Most of the Avengers were on the run for two years because of him. He's the one who wanted to sign a paper that violated their Civil rights. was willing to have them locked up for breaking the Accords but didn't bother turning himself in when he himself broke them. 

Tony did live his life. He married Pepper and had Morgan. Even if for a little while, he was happy and we got to see it. Time was devoted to developing his relationship with his wife and daughter. He got to be his usual genius self. He got a reunion with Peter and they gave him the glory of killing Thanos. He dies knowing they won. He got a funeral and a video saying goodbye. Every known Avenger was at his funeral and then some. Even Harley was brought back for it. Tony is treated as the most important character and is given the send-off of one. 

Comparing it to the rest:

Steve tries to help the others move on but can't seem to move on himself, then gets involved in the time heist. He loses Nat. Loved the shot of him wielding Mjolnir and beating up Thanos. He then goes to the past to join Peggy. Which, while I love Steve and Peggy, you can't think too much about this because it's a massive plot hole and some questionable characterization. Would have preferred if they had found another way to reunite them. 

Clint turns into a mass murderer. Joins the heist and then loses Nat. He's then largely just there and finally reunites with his family. 

Bruces merges with the Hulk off-screen. He gets to be his genius self. Helps with the heist and also loses Nat. I've watched this twice and I don't remember what he was doing during the final battle. 

Thor turns into someone so dependant on alcohol and gains a lot of weight. He's not all there during the planning stages of the heist and Rocket has to collect the Stone out of Jane, because he runs away. Loved his talk with Frigga though and the fight with Thanos. After which, he hands over the leadership officially to Valkyrie and runs off to join the GotG. 

And Natasha, the first OG Female Avengers. She was the second Avenger we met. She's having trouble moving on and is the one leading what's left of the Avengers. We see her helping out with plotting the heist. They for whatever absurd reason, she and Clint are the ones who go off to Vormir where she dies so that Clint doesn't. Then we get a scene with all the OG men sitting at a dock talking about how they can't bring her back and how they have to make her death worth it. That's it. She isn't at the final battle, not at the female superhero team up. She doesn't get to see that they won. She gave up her life for a chance that they would. There's no funeral or montage. If it wasn't for Clint at the lake or that blink and you miss it scene between Bruce and Steve, you would think they had completely forgotten that they had killed her off.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Vera

[VCRTracking]

The people she was closest too talked about and missed her. I get the reason they didn't have 2 funeral scenes or give Tony and Natasha a double memorial.

[Vera]

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, raven said:

One kiss to me isn't leaving her high and dry.  She helped Steve because of who she is and because she thought it was the right thing to do, not because she was mooning over Steve. 

In-Universe, that kiss was also about seven years ago and I didn't get the impression that Steve and Sharon had been dating in all that time or that they'd even been in touch with each other. It was just a kiss that didn't lead anywhere. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, ramble said:

Idk. I read reviews of people loving it, I read here about loving it, my friends loved it... Maybe I’m am just a silly old bear. 

I feel the same way. There were a lot of really amazing moments but several aspects of the plot felt forced. In the end I loved the characters, the callbacks and most of the fan service moments but I really didn’t like the story. 

[Crs97]

Tony was actually and to his face told he was unfit to join the Avengers at the very beginning.  He was only invited/shanghaied when the crisis started in Avengers, and that’s when Captain America told him he was nothing but a suit.  He risks his life to save them, and when Bruce and he start trying to plan to protect the world and it goes horribly awry, only Tony gets blamed.  Don’t even get me started on civil war.  We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

What was the exchange between FRIDAY and Pepper at the end?

[TigerLynx]

59 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I have said it in every television and movie forum that I like that  uses time travel: I love science fiction and fantasy but hate time travel plots. It is way too easy of a get out of jail card and the paradoxes it causes are just headaches. With that said, I know it is a major go to for the  science fiction and the fantasy genres. So, I live with it.

Sometimes I like time travel, sometimes I don't.  When it is actually necessary to the plot (and that is very rare) depending on how it plays out, I might like it.  When the writers just don't want to deal with what they wrote, it annoys me to no end.

While I liked parts of this movie, the statements by both Tony, Bruce, etc., saying we have to be careful, we can't change the past, but then past events were changed and the writers didn't bother to address it, that's lazy writing.

Edited April 28, 2019 by TigerLynx

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, raven said:

One kiss to me isn't leaving her high and dry.  She helped Steve because of who she is and because she thought it was the right thing to do, not because she was mooning over Steve.

True. But her character still deserved better. She's a huge Captain America character in her own right in the comics and in the end the Russos threw her under to the bus for the Steggy Stan's and to give more screen time to ScarJo.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Wynterwolf]

35 minutes ago, Dani said:

13 hours ago, ramble said:

Idk. I read reviews of people loving it, I read here about loving it, my friends loved it... Maybe I’m am just a silly old bear. 

I feel the same way. There were a lot of really amazing moments but several aspects of the plot felt forced. In the end I loved the characters, the callbacks and most of the fan service moments but I really didn’t like the story. 

Yeah, that was exactly how I felt.  I loved it in the moment (and there is nothing wrong with that!!).  It wasn't until later when I tried to connect some of the dots, and fill in some of the off screen narrative that... WORMS, WORMS EVERYWHERE.  Literal crates of cans of worms.   

And the more you think about it, the more issues become apparent (that have NOTHING to do with "shipping").  

I also don't like Noble Sacrifice tropes (which are just Suicide tropes decked out in a fancy suit).  I'm a scrappy back alley fighter type, and I generally consider Noble Sacrifice tropes to be the refuge of the unimaginative, and I would never have considered the Russos to be unimaginative.  

I'm sure there is an in-universe explanation for everything, but we weren't give enough information on screen (in a 3 hour movie!!!) to reasonably be able to figure that out, and that's poor storytelling.  

And Steve's characterization just doesn't work for me, he deserved to be able to help rebuild the new beginning that they all paid so dearly to create, not run away and hide in the past.  And they literally could have sent him all over the universe to help do that off screen.   

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

And Steve's characterization just doesn't work for me, he deserved to be able to help rebuild the new beginning that they all paid so dearly to create, not run away and hide in the past.  And they literally could have sent him all over the universe to help do that off screen.   

Exactly. A decade spent firmly establishing Steve has a character who can’t turn is back on his friends or from injustice is negated for a happily ever after. 

The other thing that bothers me the more I think about it is Natasha’s death. The two Avengers best equipped to be in New York retrieving the space and mind stones are instead sent to a alien planet all alone when the team had no clue who or what was guarding the soul stone. Isn’t it convenient that team “we don’t trade lives” just happened to send the two who could fulfill the soul for a soul requirement. 

Scarlett and Jeremy acted the hell out of the scene but she belonged in that final battle. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Guest

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

The other thing that bothers me the more I think about it is Natasha’s death.

Oooooh, don't even get me started on what they did to Natasha.  I'm am still too livid to even talk about it yet.  And this goes back to what I was complaining about earlier in that the plot was manipulated to create certain outcomes, not to tell a narratively sound story.  It's just... moar worms!!!

But also yes, Scarlett and Jeremy were amazing in that.  It's kind of like with Thor, HUGELY problematic material, but CH did an outstanding job with it nonetheless.  

Edited April 28, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[markx]

16 hours ago, Dani said:

The most controversial thing about ‘Avengers: Endgame’ is going to surprise you

This article has Hulk and the Ancient One’s time travel explanation. I agree with it’s conclusion that each change creates a new timeline. The implications of the alternative is head ache inducing for me.  It also has a a list of the possible new timelines created throughout Endgame. 

One possible explanation is that the timeline we're watching *isn't* an original timeline, but is one where Steve has travelled back in time (and never returned to his original timeline).

It means the old Steve we see at the end isn't exactly the same Steve we've seen all along, but came from another timeline. Meanwhile our Steve travelled back in time to in turn create a new timeline.

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I will have to rewatch the movie, but that I am pretty sure that article got it wrong. The Ancient One said that the problem was if the Avengers lost or weren't able to return the stones to exact time then her reality i.e. world in the past would be left without a way to defend itself. I am pretty sure she never mentioned being worried about creating alternative timelines.

I see these as consistent - I don't think the article is saying that the alternative timeline is what she was inherently worried about (rather it was the loss of the stone in her timeline, as you say), rather the article tries to use what she said to understand what the time travel rules are meant to be.