S07.E08: Unmasked

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, Angel12d said:

Dinah a couple of episodes ago: "William is Oliver Queen's son, should we trust him?"

Dinah now: "I trust you, William, because I see the good parts of Oliver in you."

WTF kind of inconsistent nonsense is this?!

Because now Oliver and Dinah are sort of partners in the present. You expect continuity? What’s that? 

[Mellowyellow]

What happens to little William? Is he coming home? I couldn't understand what they said in that bit.

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

What happens to little William? Is he coming home? I couldn't understand what they said in that bit.

They talked about seeing him over his Christmas break from school.

[Mary0360]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Dinah a couple of episodes ago: "William is Oliver Queen's son, should we trust him?"

Dinah now: "I trust you, William, because I see the good parts of Oliver in you."

WTF kind of inconsistent nonsense is this?!

I think it's just part of the implying Oliver is dead and/or evil like Felicity. Like "once upon time Oliver was good and you have those good bits even though he turned out to be the worst like his evil bitch of a wife who I'm sooo much better then"

 

Honestly I'm really really hoping there will be a big swerve and Dinah is really the bad guy or working on the bad side because if her smug ass ends up continuing to be the sanctimonious Star City hero I'm rooting for team villain.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Mary0360

[Mellowyellow]

I just realised I enjoyed watching Mumbles more than Dinah. Mumbles was funny with his ranting and turtle gear.

Dinah is humourless.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

What I wouldn't give for them to spin Dinah off to Batwoman

I'd rather they spin her off into a slow painful death.

[Mary0360]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'd rather they spin her off into a slow painful death.

Preferably by Maya, Felicitys maybe baby.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

I think it's just part of the implying Oliver is dead and/or evil like Felicity. Like "once upon time Oliver was good and you have those good bits even though he turned out to be the worst like his evil bitch of a wife who I'm sooo much better then"

It just felt like such a sharp turnaround. This isn't like weeks or months have passed and she's learned to trust him. It's basically the same day or maybe the day after or something. It makes no sense she'd distrust William for being Oliver's kid one day and then trust him for being his kid the next. 

[Mary0360]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

It just felt like such a sharp turnaround. This isn't like weeks or months have passed and she's learned to trust him. It's basically the same day or maybe the day after or something. It makes no sense she'd distrust William for being Oliver's kid one day and then trust him for being his kid the next. 

Well like someone else said it could also be because Dinah and Oliver became partners in the present they need to reinforce that Dinah did regard him highly once upon a time in the future. It's just the writers suck.

[KenyaJ]

46 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I was going thru the Arrow tag and 95% is Felicity, Maya and Olicity. No one cares about Dinah. 

I love that Felicity was a top ten trending topic the entire time that we were seeing nothing but Dinah on our screens.

 

No matter how much this show disappoints me, I will never not be grateful for these two and their commitment to being stupidly hot together.

[PennyAngel]

When I was watching the episode where Diaz was attacking Felicity, I remembered thinking about how she got away. He was attacking her and then she was somewhere else. She made the excuse of the guards coming, but something was off. It was just weird. I believed more happened in the scene that is going to come out later. I believe that is what changed her.

[KillahBee007]

Wow. What a true disappointment of an episode. The only things that worked for me where the Olicity scenes and FS. I don’t care about Blackstar except that she doesn’t like DD so WIN. Way WAY too much DD. ENOUGH.  

Now we have National Treasure: Arrow. Like who is this John and why is cutting Oliver and Felicity out? I love that he’s finally getting his due but at the expense of everything else? Nope. 

Also? Rene? You and your crew are the reason everything went to shit. FS has been at the forefront and for the most part, they’ve nailed the character but if they are gonna force DD and Oliver working together....that is some bull. 

 

Present and future DD sucks. William is annoying. 

[catrox14]

The manufactured angst between Oliver and Felicity is just so stupid.  Is this an alternate timeline they haven't explained? Oliver has no reason to be mad at Felicity about a gun, because he was super proud of her for hacking....so what? It's STOOPID.

[tennisgurl]

So I saw the first half, and my thoughts: 

This half was better than the second, mainly because we actually got some of what I wanted to see this week.

Loved seeing how Oliver was struggling with his post prison life, freaking out in the shower and being nervous in crowds. And it was amazing seeing Felicity taking over and helping to steer him away from people he just isnt ready to deal with yet. And he remembered their anniversary, AND we finally got some kisses! But then the camera moved away. Turn it back, you cowards! Its been a whole half season damn it! Those scenes were all amazing, like eating cotton candy that can clear your skin!

Rene is the NTA member I hate the least these days, which is weird, considering he pulled some of the worst shit of all of the Newbies. Granted, being the best of NTA is like being the least smelly dumpster diver, but its still something I guess. Dinah is just aggressively smug, and Curtis is just a pain in the ass. At least there was minimal Curtis. Thank Beth for small favors. 

I only care about ARGUS stuff to get to the reveal that they're the bad guys, and Diggle can realize what an idiot he has been this whole time. I do still love Lyla though, hopefully she makes it out alright.

Now that I've kind of gotten used to Kat McNamara with blond hair and not red, and her many tattoos being in different places, and presumably less magic and accidental kinda incest (maybe? There are a lot of long lost relatives around here!) I like Maya and I totally ready to see more of her in the flash-forwards. Her fighting style looks very similar to Oliver, but changed a bit due to the obvious size difference. Interesting. And she apparently hates Dinah and is working with Felicity, and told Dinah that everything sucks because of her, so obviously I am totally on her side! More people tell Dinah that shes the worst! 

Max asking why Oliver still even gives a crap about the city is kind of the best question anyone has asked him in ages. 

So...much...Dianh....UGGGGGGGGG!

[Simba122504]

I knew it was Oliver's other half sister.  The one he doesn't know exists yet.  It's funny how both Moira and Robert had outside children. Oliver is their only biological child together. I enjoyed the episode but there are things I had a problem with. Oliver working for the CCPD.  Please end this.  The O/F break up because the reason is stupid and I hate unnecessary drama especially when we're on S7. Oliver was not there and neither was Diggle. Oliver has done way worst things and at this point he should accept these kind of things. Also the GA should not have a soft wife. She would never survive if she wasn't tough. D/L going to see Diaz and of course leaving Oliver in the dark which of course is going to blow up their faces. Oliver fighting to save the city is useless if the future is that bleak. 

[Velocity23]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

I was going thru the Arrow tag and 95% is Felicity, Maya and Olicity. No one cares about Dinah. 

[olicityfan25]

Diggle going to Diaz for help should paint him as evil too. I mean if that's what they did to Felicity than they should say that about Diggle also. 

The writers are dumb.

[JamieLynn832002]

Rewatching (because apparently I hate myself) I'm more okay with Oliver. I feel like he's more terrified than anything else. Terrified that, after everything they've been through, he's losing the woman he loves again, there's nothing he can do to stop it and it's mostly his fault. The somewhat goofy look on his face when she says she loves him more than anyone should love another person indicates to me that he's still fully in love with Felicity, whoever she is now but he doesn't know how to fix this. Oliver has always said all he wants is for Felicity to be happy and whether they stay together or not, it's pretty clear that this Felicity isn't happy. She's petrified and he (with fairly solid assists from their suckyass friends and Diaz) did this to her.

[Ophanim]

I really chose wrong episode to come back, did I? 

Well, considering this is like second episode I watched in long pause of this show - yeah, better to stay awhile a longer. Way too much characters I really don't like nor I am interested to see. I know when I am not welcomed to the show anymore, and that's when I am not fed well. This show stop feeding me with OTA long time ago. 

Question: Did the one point of episode was how people can change or can not change? I didn't sleep at all this night so maybe I get things wrong...

Edited December 4, 2018 by Ophanim
additional q

[thuganomics85]

So, that all happened.

Being generous, I can actually see why Oliver might be on edge after finally getting out of prison and had his concerns been simply over Felicity almost shooting Diaz, I could even understand his reaction, because while hypocritical, Oliver is definitely someone who I think wants her to not become as messed up as he has become.  But him being so stunned that she is carrying a gun and shooting the assassin is just freaking baffling.  Really, Oliver?  I know you're still adjusting, but it never occurred to you that she was probably living her life looking over her shoulder the entire time you were gone (which, you sprung on her at the last minute, but alas), and she needed something to protect herself since everyone else apparently abandon her, since they're assholes?  And her working alongside Black Siren and Anatoly is somehow bad, even though you've worked alongside the likes of... well, take your pick over all the villainous characters you've teamed up with to face off against a bigger evil or to protect someone you love.  Seriously, I just have to believe his time in prison is still fucking with his head.  Pull it together man, before you lose her... again.

And on a side note to Oliver: while I can understand why you will still have misgivings with Black Siren, you can kindly shut up about dissing Anatoly.  That guy is no saint, but he's saved your sorry ass several times and, again, is one of the few that has actually helped Felicity in her hour of need.  But you are acting like she was aligning with Chase or Damien Dahrk.

Yeah, between the main story and the flashbacks, this episode really did feel Dinah-heavy, which makes no sense to me, except if the show is worried that some of their original cast members are thinking of leaving, and they're hoping the Noobs can take the mantle.  To which I say.... HA!

Blackwatch or whatever her name was cool, at least.  Not overtly familiar with Katherine McNamara, but she seems like a solid addition.

Bringing back Max Fuller was kind of fun, even if it reminded me that his episode was when they introduced Deadshot and I really, really miss Deadshot.

And now we see how they're going to keep Diaz in the picture, thanks to Diggle and Lyla needing his help for... reasons.  At this point, I hate everything about ARGUS.  And at this rate, Diggle might end up being the true villain of this season.

At least they revealed that the New Green Arrow is a woman and is apparently also a child of Robert Queen.  Once they find out, Rene is so hooking up with her, right?  Because the guy is totally obsessed with "him."

I really wouldn't be surprised if Future Felicity actually does end up turning bad because everyone else simply sucks.

[Mary0360]

37 minutes ago, Ophanim said:

Question: Did the one point of episode was how people can change or can not change? I didn't sleep at all this night so maybe I get things wrong...

 

I personally thought the theme of the episode was dumpster fire, but if you asked the writers it was probably something along the lines of how traumatic experiences can either change you for the better or worst and the choices you decide to make. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Mary0360

[Mellowyellow]

I watched all the Olicity scenes again and I think I would have been left feeling better if he said he loves her. She said the most beautiful I love you to him and the dumbass just gaped at her with his goldfish mouth.

Tell her you love her!!! Tell her you love her no matter what. Gawd I'm pissed. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[Morrigan2575]

6 hours ago, Trisha said:

Not to defend Oliver in *any* way, but the moment she shot the guy truly surprised me. Everything else she’s done this season felt totally rational, but that was the first moment I thought maybe there was more to it than completely justified self-preservation and the real source of her “darkness” is actually some serious PTSD. So if that was my reaction and I’ve been following her arc all season, I kind of get why Oliver was so caught off guard. I think it could have been depicted much better though (more shock/surprise from him, without the undertones of disgust/disappointment). 

Which would make sense if she shot a downed/defenseless guy for no reason. However, she didn't it. She shot the guy after Oliver took his eyes off of him to question why Felicity had a gun and wasn't hiding behind him and, the guy attempted to lunge at Oliver. She basically shot (not killed) in defense of self and others.

The thing is, it's not like Felicity hasn't pulled a gun on people before. It's also not like Felicity has some moral code about not using guns. We've seen her do both, so this whole Felicity is pure light doesn't make much sense to me.

Now, I kind of see what they were trying to show (I think) that both Oliver and Felicity were broken by the 7 months time apart. That Oliver is suffering and can't adjust to being "on the outside" so he's clinging to the Felicity he knew before prison. And Felicity felt weak/vulnerable/scared being alone with no support so she become obsessed with protecting herself anyway she could

The problem is (for me) they kind of haven't shown Felicity do anything that extreme IMO so the execution failed.  I'm also struggling with the idea that a woman using a gun for self protection after being victimized is a bad thing. This is what bothers me the most because I'm sure it's not the intention but, the execution made it seem that way to me.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

I re-watched the home invasion scene (ok ALL the Olicity scenes multiple times because while everything sucked they are still the most amazing OTP chemistry wise) and noticed a few interesting things.

Felicity has always been a "grab the nearest weapon" kind of girl but in previous action scenes, if Oliver was there, he'd protect her and she'd go along with it. I rewound several times and while Oliver tried to dive for her, she skedaddled off pretty quickly, risking being hit by some arrows and then waiting to make a beeline for her gun. 

That to me is pretty telling based on previous Olicity action scenes. She doesn't trust him or want to depend on him to protect her anymore. I'm not saying she used to sit around and wait to be saved (she always went for a blunt object) but this time it felt like she wasn't going to look to him to be the person to watch her back anymore. I don't think she's even intentionally doing it. She obviously still loves him and she protects him as evidenced by the beginning of the episode but he's not her protector anymore. She's only going to rely on herself from now on. 

Oliver's meltdown about the gun was badly written because melting down about a gun seems silly in the scheme of things on this show but I think it was their clumsy way of showing how much Felicity has changed (again gun is dumb but they were trying to make a point). When when she had the gun, Oliver (who had survived Lian Yu and seen stuff) pretty much got the shock of his life and it was like he didn't even care about the home invader anymore. He was all "WTF" and ready to demand she talk about her feelings. Then when she shot the guy, followed by her trashing her old self, Oliver's world kind of collapsed. 

I think that Oliver has realised he killed the girl with the red pen. She's always been grey and urged him to do what needed to be done (pleaded for him to kill Ras in S3) but she's never been this particular version of herself and he played a pivotal role in creating her through his choices. This is his biggest fear come true. Didn't Chase tell Oliver he destroyed everything he touched? I think that's hitting home right now.

Olicity really need to be given more screen time. I need him to tell her she can be any version of herself, he'll love her anyway. And then I want him to slowly work on gaining back her trust and making her feel like she can depend on him again.  

[JamieLynn832002]

43 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I watched all the Olicity scenes again and I think I would have been left feeling better if he said he loves her. She said the most beautiful I love you to him and the dumbass just gaped at her with his goldfish mouth.

Tell her you love her!!! Tell her you love her book matter what. Gawd I'm pissed. 

I agree but I think part of the problem is that, to Oliver, whether he loves her isn't even a question and then she followed that with indicating she isn't sure their relationship is good for her/she's good for their relationship right now and I'm guessing he shot right past reassuring her that he loved her to full-blown panic-mode. He's existed for months mainly on the hope of getting his family back and now his wife is seemingly saying that while she wants that too, she isn't sure it's possible and unfortunately, Oliver often seems to go goldfish mouth when worried.

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I agree but I think part of the problem is that, to Oliver, whether he loves her isn't even a question and then she followed that with indicating she isn't sure their relationship is good for her/she's good for their relationship right now and I'm guessing he shot right past reassuring her that he loved her to full-blown panic-mode. He's existed for months mainly on the hope of getting his family back and now his wife is seemingly saying that while she wants that too, she isn't sure it's possible and unfortunately, Oliver often seems to go goldfish mouth when worried.

True! It's very him but I just wanted to shake him to death and scream "NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR GOLDFISH!!! MAN UP AND DO SOMETHING!!!!!!"

[ComicFan777]

It really bothers me that when Felicity decides to protect and defend herself and her family, the implication is that she is a completely different person now. 

When Oliver decided to not kill when he used to, no one said that he is a completely different person.  When Diggle killed his brother, no one said that he was a completely different person.  Dinah went on a murder rampage, and becomes a vigilante, goes on a rampage, and goes anti-vigilante.  No one says that she is a completely different person.  They changed because of circumstance.  

This completely different person thing only applies to Felicity. 
Felicity adapted to her circumstance - there's nothing wrong with that.  

[KenyaJ]

The more I've been thinking about Oliver's reaction to Felicity telling Oliver why she's changed, the more it's pissing me off because it feels so OOC for Oliver. In 701 it was obvious that he felt extreme guilt about not being there to protect her and William from Diaz. The Oliver I know would be feeling even guiltier now that he's seen firsthand the ways that she's had to adapt to the threats that faced her while he was away.

That Oliver would have come home from prison understanding how detrimental his unilateral decision was to their relationship and prepared to spend every day trying to make it up so him. Having this Oliver ask "How many times do I have to apologize?" felt so off and not at all the way I'd expect him to react to seeing the impact his choice had on her. It's especially jarring because Felicity was so attuned to the way he was struggling to adjust to being back in the outside world. She was kind, loving, and supportive , giving him pep talks and running interference with anyone who made him feel uncomfortable. By comparison, he doesn't appear to realize that she's scared, scarred, and traumatized, even though it couldn't be more obvious. How can he not see and understand that? How is he not offering her the same kind of emotional support she gave him? How can he think a few apologies are sufficient to repair the damage of turning her entire life upside down? She lost her husband, son, home, company, "friends," and sense of security and he acts put out that she has the nerve to still be upset that pulled the rug out from under her. 

The last thing I want is to see Oliver self-flagellating himself with guilt as he did in past seasons. But it feels wrong that this situation with Felicity is the first time he appears to be taking it relatively easy on himself. His acknowledgmentand apology in the last scene for putting her in the position where she had to defend herself was so half-assed and he was so quick to accept Felicity telling him it wasn't on him.

I'm not at all mad that Oliver was upset and freaked out by seeing Felicity shoot someone. I wouldn't expect anything less of him. But in any other season, this would've kicked in his protective instincts rather than his judgmental ones. In any other season, he'd be trying to figure out a way to help her, just like Diggle would have helped her figure out a way to capture Diaz. Instead of supporting her, they're both judging her for the way she's reacting to a traumatic experience. I hate the way their characterization is being sacrificed for the sake of making us wonder if we're watching Evil Future Felicity's origin story. It's weird, because like @Chaser said upthread, the writing for Felicity has actually been pretty great this season. It just sucks that to make her storyline happen, Diggle and Oliver are forced to react to her in ways that don't feel authentic to who we know them to be. Fix it, Jesus.

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

They talked about seeing him over his Christmas break from school.

That's surprising - I would have expected Oliver to hop on the first flight to wherever his boarding school is just to say hello.  Alternatively, if he's worried about being tracked I'm sure Barry or Cisco would be happy to help out.

 

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The problem is (for me) they kind of haven't shown Felicity do anything that extreme IMO so the execution failed.  I'm also struggling with the idea that a woman using a gun for self protection after being victimized is a bad thing. This is what bothers me the most because I'm sure it's not the intention but, the execution made it seem that way to me.

The execution might not have been great here but I think the point was that Felicity pulled a gun on a guy whom Oliver had already beaten and disarmed (which is fine), but when he got up to run away she immediately shot him and easily could have killed him.  That's unwise on a pragmatic level (hard to interrogate a corpse) and it's pretty brutal for someone who is supposed to be the the heart of the team.

[Velocity23]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That's surprising - I would have expected Oliver to hop on the first flight to wherever his boarding school is just to say hello.  Alternatively, if he's worried about being tracked I'm sure Barry or Cisco would be happy to help out.

 

The execution might not have been great here but I think the point was that Felicity pulled a gun on a guy whom Oliver had already beaten and disarmed (which is fine), but when he got up to run away she immediately shot him and easily could have killed him.  That's unwise on a pragmatic level (hard to interrogate a corpse) and it's pretty brutal for someone who is supposed to be the the heart of the team.

Well its clear as day that there is no team to speak off. All of them turned their back on her and she had to survive the best way she could.

[insomniadreams88]

I find it so strange (stupid) that they’re so determined to make us think Felicity has gone evil that apparently the only way to do that is to show no one has her back in the present or future. 

Also, I’m annoyed that Dinah’s talking about knowing Oliver/seeing parts of him in William/whatever that was when she (and Curtis and Rene) hated OTA last season and we’ve never really seen her become friends with anyone but Diggle. It really feels like a “well, she’s BC (or at least one of them)” thing. 

[benteen]

Reading all these reactions makes me glad I stopped watching this show.

Oliver really freaked out about Felicity having a gun?  Really?  He does realize that she isn't a meta and is not a trained fighter?

[Mary0360]

@KenyaJ first of all 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

 

And I think you hit on something with the fact that the writers interpret an emotionally evolved Oliver as an Oliver who doesn't blame himself or beat himself up for anything, even if it's something he should actually take some accountability on. It's like they've decided because so much of old was him always blaming himself, to show he's a new Oliver they just decide to do the opposite. Because that's how basic their brains are or how basic they believe their audiences brains are. See he's changed guys!

 

I think that's what bugging me with the writing, in particular with the FF, it seems to be written as though the audience are really basic and stupid and can't understand nuance. Like "we want to do a is Felicity evil in the future? mystery. Better beat the audience over the head with it by having all the characters repeatedly question Felicitys "darkness" and overreact to her fairly normal actions for this show. Just in case the audience don't get it." 

 

Have a look around Beth and co. The peak television landscape is full of well written, intelligent shows with complex characters. Audiences can appreciate smart tv shows that require them to think for themselves.

 

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

The execution might not have been great here but I think the point was that Felicity pulled a gun on a guy whom Oliver had already beaten and disarmed (which is fine), but when he got up to run away she immediately shot him and easily could have killed him.  That's unwise on a pragmatic level (hard to interrogate a corpse) and it's pretty brutal for someone who is supposed to be the the heart of the team.

The guy was lunging at Oliver so then she shot him, it was a self defence tatic. Also seeing as everyone on Team Arrow has shot at or even killed someone on this show in the course of their Vigilante duties I don't see why Felicity doing the same is "brutal".

 

Rene freaking shot at Felicity last season and almost got a bullet in her. And no one questioned Renes morals or feared for his immortal soul. In fact the writers treated Felicity and Oliver like the bad guys and had them apologise to Rene. 

 

But Felicity picking up a gun to defend an intruder that broke into her home and was trying to kill her and her husband is treated like something shocking and unreasonable.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Mary0360

[way2interested]

23 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

And I think you hit on something with the fact that the writers interpret an emotionally evolved Oliver as an Oliver who doesn't blame himself or beat himself up for anything, even if it's something he should actually take some accountability on.

He did take accountability for it though. He said that he was one who put her in the position to feel like she was alone in defending herself and apologized and Felicity told him that it wasn't on him. He could continue to feel guilty for it but it would also be going exactly against what Felicity wants in that moment.

23 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

The guy was lunging at Oliver so then she shot him, it was a self defence tatic.

I keep watching it and it still looks like to me he was running away so Oliver couldn't get answers and Felicity shot him (not only probably because in her mind intruder = instant danger, whether the intruder was taken down or not) because he wasn't staying still. I don't think it was brutal so much as slightly trigger-happy and obsessed with protecting herself, which the episode kept emphasizing in all of Felicity's scenes.

Edited December 4, 2018 by way2interested

[apinknightmare]

I rewatched parts of the episode because I'm a glutton for punishment (but I avoided most of Dinah, so not THAT much of a glutton for punishment). 

Two things would've made the Olicity stuff much better for me:

1. I would've liked to have seen one of these many apologies Oliver gave to Felicity about his decision to go to jail for, uh, the rest of his life! I got to see him deliver apologies to three absolute assholes who didn't actually deserve them at the end of last season, and when he actually does something wrong and monumentally stupid/dangerous/hurtful (the Oliver trifecta, bless), that one happens offscreen? I wish I had chainmail curtains to protect me from Arrow because THIS FUCKING SHOW, I SWEAR.

2. Like @Mellowyellow mentioned, an "I love you" from Oliver. On first watch, I thought the "the old you was the person I fell in love with," was an indictment on "new" Felicity, but on rewatch I realize it wasn't anything other than a defense of the "old" Felicity to the person who was putting her down. But, even when Oliver was in the midst of his idiocy in prison, Felicity still told him that she loved him - it would've been nice to hear him say it, especially since they didn't shy away from him telling her he wanted to work things out between them, and she gave him such a lovely I love you during their convo. So it's not like they left it out to up the drama and make us question the state of their relationship , because Felicity's the one with misgivings, and she even managed to say it to him.

 

Also, I would really like a director's cut of this whole season without the flash forwards so I can pretend they don't exist. What a bleak, plot over character-y mess. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by apinknightmare

[olicityfan25]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That's surprising - I would have expected Oliver to hop on the first flight to wherever his boarding school is just to say hello.  Alternatively, if he's worried about being tracked I'm sure Barry or Cisco would be happy to help out.

 

The execution might not have been great here but I think the point was that Felicity pulled a gun on a guy whom Oliver had already beaten and disarmed (which is fine), but when he got up to run away she immediately shot him and easily could have killed him.  That's unwise on a pragmatic level (hard to interrogate a corpse) and it's pretty brutal for someone who is supposed to be the the heart of the team.

I think he was going after Oliver when she shot him. Because he got up again and Oliver punched him.

[apinknightmare]

It's kinda hard for me to tell if the guy was going after Oliver or if he was making an attempt to escape because of the angles. The guy was in a closet that Oliver was standing in front of, but it seems like he goes to the right (away from Oliver) when he gets up - but that could just be the way it was shot. 

Also - because I just watched that whole fight twice, HOW did Oliver get so bad in the span of a week? He busted up a whole prison last time we saw him and now he's parkouring into air, and swinging 2 feet above someone's head? I weep.

[Mellowyellow]

I hate that this show shoved Dinah down our throats and yet dangles Felicity so that she trended and we're on 4 pages discussing it.

I want to quit but I can't. I feel like they are holding me hostage with Felicity and forcing me to watch that sour nag Dinah.

***

Random note but Felicity is a tea drinker!!! There was a tea bag!

[way2interested]

34 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Two things would've made the Olicity stuff much better for me:

Aesthetically I agree although I wonder if for 1. they considered the last scene enough (opinions of if it actually was aside) and for 2. if they felt it was already established in the beginning scene with Oliver adding "for the rest of my life" to his quoting of his vow (also opinions of if it actually was aside).

[Primal Slayer]

Why do I have the feeling we're going to find out that Rene is the mayor or something in the future? Dinah telling him to run for office or whatever probably wasn't for nothing. 

[ladylaw99]

There is so much I hate about this episode.

OTA - this is what started me on this crazy journey and kept me going.  Now they have managed to kill any scenes that I would look forward to seeing with Diggle.  Why?  Even the scene with Oliver and Diggle was off.  

I can't believe Diaz came back so soon.  I knew he would be back but, the very next episode. Please.  I need a break from this lame villain.  Where is Stanley, at least I understand the words that come out his mouth.

I know Oliver and Felicity need to work on issues  but I just wanted  a few scenes of them enjoying being with eachother.  7 months of not being together and I got 1 scene, maybe 2 if you include the gala.

FF not interested at all anymore.  Maya is great and I like her but I am bored.  They are taking to long to reveal information.

Not interested in the NGA, i like the old one just fine.

Dinah needs to go or reduce her screen time.  Highlight Curtis one scene.

Oliver in law enforcement is stupid and this is why I didn't want his identity to be revealed.  I don't know, maybe this break is going to be good.  The problem is they didn't leave me wanting to come back.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Aesthetically I agree although I wonder if for 1. they considered the last scene enough (opinions of if it actually was aside) and for 2. if they felt it was already established in the beginning scene with Oliver adding "for the rest of my life" to his quoting of his vow (also opinions of if it actually was aside).

Oh, I'm sure they considered a lot of this enough in the writers' room, and probably had what they thought were great reasons for how it all unfolded (assuming they thought about it that much, which maybe they didn't). I was just talking about what *I* would've liked to have seen from the episode's arc, because none of it really felt right to me as-is.

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Why do I have the feeling we're going to find out that Rene is the mayor or something in the future? Dinah telling him to run for office or whatever probably wasn't for nothing. 

Maybe that's why Star City went to shit, LOL.

[Chaser]

I have a lot of problems with the last Olicity scene. It was designed to put a question mark on Olicity so I found the dialogue off. What direction was Olicity going that wouldn’t have been good for her? For a guy who experienced PTSD himself, he clearly wasn’t getting the point here.

And the whole tone of the scene was too subdued for me.  After everything they went thru the past 7 months to get back to each, it was a rather nonchalant conversation. 

[Mellowyellow]

Have we ever had Olicity conflict where Oliver handles things well instead of either badgering or being a stunned mullet?

He is supportive of her when they are sailing along (the ep with tiny Ray, 604) but I find him incompetent when a something big strikes their relationship.

S3 - told her he couldn't be with her then moped instead of doing something about it and moped some more when she moved on

S4 - stunned mullet again after she walked off and then tried to con her into staying with him with the fake wedding

S5 - stunned mullet for a bit while she dated Tiny Hands and it took almost dying and Felicity making the first move for him to be all "Hurrah I is dating Felicity again"

S6 - badgered her into marrying him at someone else's rehearsal dinner, sulked when she refused, more sulking even when Nazis attacked. He did settle down after the Nazis so I'll give him that. 

S7 - stunned mullet again as soon as Felicity says she's not sure of what's ahead for them

I want to see some kind of growth in him this time round. Dammnit Oliver do something and make sure it's appropriate! This shit is on him this time and he needs to do something!!!!! The right thing, not walk sound with helpless mullet face. 

[tv echo]

You all have eloquently expressed my own outrage and disappointment at this episode...

While I loved seeing Oliver as the Green Arrow again, watching him work with Dinah and Rene was not enjoyable. (If there's too much of Oliver working with Dinah at the SCPD the rest of this season, I may claw my eyes out.) I also question how Oliver can leave Diaz alive but have no hesitation in killing all those minions (how does he know some of them aren't just innocent club guards?).

Oliver now knows something of what Felicity went through while he was in prison. But he still appears ignorant of the fact that she had to resort to getting help from Black Siren and Anatoly because she was essentially abandoned by Diggle, Lyla, Dinah and Curtis (I'll give Rene credit for helping her). Diggle continues to disappoint this season with his stupid decision to keep ARGUS asking Diaz for help a secret from Oliver & Felicity.

Felicity gave me strong Moira Queen vibes during this episode, especially when she was so protective of Oliver and running interference for him during the gala party. And... she's developing a new security system! 

As someone else noted upthread, Felicity is clearly suffering from PTSD after almost being killed by Diaz and from the months of stressful, frustrating, isolating efforts to capture Diaz with little or no help from her so-called friends during most of those months. Why doesn't Oliver recognize that? 

I really don't want more Olicity angst, although I understand the reason for Felicity's anger and Oliver's surprise. Why can't they be happy for at least an entire episode?

In S4 I was angry at Oliver for keeping his son a secret from Felicity and lying to her about it.  But that anger will be nothing compared to how angry I will be at Oliver if he turns away from Felicity now, when the only reason she turned dark was in order to capture Diaz and get Oliver out of prison. I want Oliver & Felicity to resolve this issue quickly and remain a married couple. I want Oliver to fall in love all over again with this new Felicity.

I will be even more angry at Beth Schwartz (and MG) if Oliver & Felicity break up after spending seven months apart. 

I was spoiled, so I knew about the introduction of Katherine McNamara as Maya and the introduction of Sea Shimooka as Emiko Queen (I'm assuming). I've been hoping that Maya is Olicity's kid, but the flashforward scenes that have aired so far don't look promising in that regard. She and William are strangers!

Btw, I found the intentional foreshadowing cringeworthy, when Oliver said: "Yeah, Christmas vacation feels like it's 20 years from now."

ETA: I wonder if the increased Dinah screentime and Canary focus are due to a mandate from DC because of the upcoming Birds of Prey movie (I know, different version of Black Canary).

Edited December 4, 2018 by tv echo

[way2interested]

16 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I want to see some kind of growth in him this time round. Dammnit Oliver do something and make sure it's appropriate! This shit is on him this time and he needs to do something!!!!! The right thing, not walk sound with helpless mullet face. 

Do what exactly though? Not sass, it's just that the episode left it with Oliver taking his cues from Felicity as it often does (s5 it was because she was moving on and any conversation about getting back together had to be started by her since she was the one who said she would talk with him about it and then never did until 520, s3 it was because she unequivocally was trying to move on and any move to try to win Felicity back post-307 or post-315 would have been extremely petty/selfish/not what Felicity would have wanted so he waited until she initiated romantic contact with him, s6 he didn't badger her, he asked her and then got confused and hurt with her answer but accepted it and moved on so much so that when Felicity took the lead later he was genuinely surprised). He can reaffirm his love but at this point he's asked what they can do going forward and is reaching out and Felicity has shared her feelings and thoughts about what she's concerned is best for her and Oliver is likely to support what she chooses.

[Sunshine]

Why does Dinah have a Mark of 4 tattoo?  If the 4 pillars of heroism are courage, compassion, selflessness and loyalty are they planning on showing her as a hero at some point in the present day? The words compassion, selflessness and loyalty are not the first words that spring to mind when I think of Dinah. Courage is a toss up because she’s a meta.  

Smug and self-righteous, come to mind first. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Do what exactly though? Not sass, it's just that the episode left it with Oliver taking his cues from Felicity as it often does (s5 it was because she was moving on and any conversation about getting back together had to be started by her since she was the one who said she would talk with him about it and then never did until 520, s3 it was because she unequivocally was trying to move on and any move to try to win Felicity back post-307 or post-315 would have been extremely petty/selfish/not what Felicity would have wanted so he waited until she initiated romantic contact with him, s6 he didn't badger her, he asked her and then got confused and hurt with her answer but accepted it and moved on so much so that when Felicity took the lead later he was genuinely surprised). He can reaffirm his love but at this point he's asked what they can do going forward and is reaching out and Felicity has shared her feelings and thoughts about what she's concerned is best for her and Oliver is likely to support what she chooses.

I would have liked to see a bit more support from Oliver? Some reassurance that he believes in her always and he'll love her no matter what, rather than the crappy implication that this new Felicity is not someone he could love (I'm not sure that was the intention behind the scene but that's certainly how it came across tbh). An onscreen apology and an "I love you" would've been nice too. Also maybe some recognition that she's clearly suffering with PTSD, which he himself should recognize and I'm actually annoyed they didn't have him point out. She's not dark, she has PTSD, ffs.

Because the fact is Felicity was still very much Felicity in this episode, which makes Oliver's reaction even more disappointing, IMO. She apologized for freaking him out (showing awareness of his own PTSD), was super supportive of him going to the gala and showing the city the man he really is. She gave him a pep talk. Ran interference at the gala when he was struggling being around people and being asked questions. Told him she loved him. Literally all she did differently was use a gun as a matter of defense. So I feel like Oliver's shock at how much she's changed doesn't really work when she's clearly still the Felicity he knows and loves with a few minor differences. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[Quark]

I'm baffled as to why this episode was so hyped up because it was quite mediocre.

Oliver seemed quite vulnerable at the start of the episode, but it only seemed to last five minutes. Would have liked to have seen more of that. Stephen Amell played it quite well for what it's worth.

Backstar seems intriguing.

So much Dinah and Rene, especially Dinah. Quite depressing that Oliver has to work for Dinah now.

Curious to see what happens with Oliver's sister. Would much prefer to see her and Oliver teaming up.

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I would have liked to see a bit more support from Oliver? Some reassurance that he believes in her always and he'll love her no matter what, rather than the crappy implication that this new Felicity is not someone he could love (I'm not sure that was the intention behind the scene but that's certainly how it came across tbh). An onscreen apology and an "I love you" would've been nice too. Also maybe some recognition that she's clearly suffering with PTSD, which he himself should recognize and I'm actually annoyed they didn't have him point out. She's not dark, she has PTSD, ffs.

Yeah, reassurance is fine, and I agree, but the post I thought was about going forward. He can say that he loves her (I'm actually on the side that the scene as is was fine and was just implying that Felicity's sudden disdain for her old self was wrong because he loved her, he literally started with "how could you possibly think that?" before he said that.), but he asked what they can do now and Felicity gave him her thoughts and feelings. Him taking extra initiative besides just words (which Felicity already cast aside and said that she can't do anything with an apology) could possibly be interpreted as going against what Felicity would want. And to be fair, Oliver never called her dark or brutal or ruthless, he actually called her out on her obsession with security to an uncharacteristic way enough to secretly carry a gun which she didn't used to do.

19 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Because the fact is Felicity was still very much Felicity in this episode,

Yeah, that's why he didn't actually break things off or leave or do anything rash and just was talking to her at the end of the episode.