S09.E08: Evolution

[OoohMaggie]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I hate dream sequences with a passion, but if it means a couple of characters that I have been bitching about being deader than door nails coming back, I can live with it.

Fans of the Hairy One May be in luck,

[mightysparrow]

Count me in the group that thinks the 'Whisperers' story line sounds beyond absurd.  As I've said before, I don't read the comics, graphic novels, whatever so I'm not an expert on TWD plotlines.  What I know I've picked up here and there and what I know about the Whisperers doesn't sound good.  Why would humans WANT to mingle among the walkers?  To steal any valuables or loose change?  They're milling around in the middle of nowhere, 'whispering' to each other.  At least the Wolves had a purpose, as insane as it was.  I think Angela Kang is going to discover that what's 'neat and cool' in a comic book probably won't work in live-action.

Speaking of not working in live-action...I was really interested when I heard JDM was going to play Negan.  I thought he was a pretty good actor and, based on his performance in 'The Watchmen', I was confident he could play a character like Negan (violent, sick, hyper-masculine, rapist).  It's hard to know what went wrong but I think it's several things.  I get the feeling that JDM's performance isn't his own.  I'm sure Kirkman and Gimple have had input and it sounds like the suits at AMC have no problem in telling an actor what they should and shouldn't do in their performances.  I couldn't believe it when Ross said that AMC gave him notes.  I hope SAG was paying attention because that just sounds beyond the pale.  An actor's performance is between the actor and the director.  So, I get the feeling that there were enough saggy-tummied men telling JDM what they thought was 'cool'.

I also think that JDM caught Norman Reedus' disease; buying into the hype.  For a minute there, it looked like JDM thought he was the coolest cat.  I can imagine that all that fan adulation would go to anyone's head.  It didn't last long because, unlike NR, JDM strikes me as being a grown-ass man.  But I think all that attention did have an affect on his performance.  On the latest 'Talking Dead', he looked like he wanted to be anywhere but there.  He was hunched over, like he was trying to disappear into himself.  Maybe he was just embarrassed to know that he was a part of something that treated its actors so badly.

[LydiaMoon1]

57 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

They're milling around in the middle of nowhere, 'whispering' to each other.  At least the Wolves had a purpose, as insane as it was.  I think Angela Kang is going to discover that what's 'neat and cool' in a comic book probably won't work in live-action.

THIS. Can you imagine how tiresome it would be to have to shuffle around all day whispering and wearing walker skins? During the middle of a Georgia summer? Why would anybody do that? I thought the trash people were loony. This takes stupid to a whole 'nother level.

[watch2much]

so the zombies aren't evolving????  they are just weird peopled dressing as zombies?  now the series has no interest to me at all.  The idea of an evolution was really interesting to me and might have been a good way to pull this show out of the rut.  now it's just more of the same....yuck.

[LydiaMoon1]

11 minutes ago, watch2much said:

so the zombies aren't evolving????  they are just weird peopled dressing as zombies?  now the series has no interest to me at all.  The idea of an evolution was really interesting to me and might have been a good way to pull this show out of the rut.  now it's just more of the same....yuck.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to spoil that for you. I thought that had already revealed it on the show. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by LydiaMoon1

[OoohMaggie]

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I think Angela Kang is going to discover that what's 'neat and cool' in a comic book probably won't work in live-action

I think The Whisperers are a perfect example of that, when reading a comic you don’t think about whether something is plausible or believable, pretty much anything goes. Viewers of the show have to let a fair amount go without looking too closely at things, but the wearing of someone’s face just doesn’t work on so many levels that it can’t just be waved through. Despite an interesting start, for me at any rate it’s one step too far towards Z Nation.

Edited November 28, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[amazinglybored]

59 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to spoil that for you. I thought that had already revealed it on the show. 

 

They did in this episode.

 

3 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

They claim that the reduction in daylight hours makes it uneconomical to do winter filming, hence no snowy Walkers, and we all know how much the people here love all those dark scenes! 😱

How early does it get dark in Winter GA

 

Yeah, but a lot of snow makes the night brighter. Not that Georgia is a winter wonderland but AMC did the Terror.

[Token]

6 hours ago, amazinglybored said:

They need to get over the idea of big villains anyway. It’s never as good as they think it is and a post apocalyptic world is full of natural threats. I liked the disease arc in the prison and they’ve got nature on top of the walkers. I guess how to effectively kill the whisperers is the question. 

Thank you for summing up what, for me, went wrong with this show!  It was so great in the beginning, when they didn't have the big bad cartoon villains.  When the show started up with all that nonsense, that's when it got lost for me.  It was just ridiculous after that.

[enoughcats]

12 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

And of course all of the characters would have to find winter clothing.

As in real life.

[amazinglybored]

30 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Good thing that the deaf person (lip reader) showed up at The Hilltop.   They ought to give her some binoculars and see if she can pick the Whisperers out of the herd of walkers.   Then Daryl can pick them off one by one with his nifty crossbow.

 

Yeah, I could see setting them on fire being a risk because of forest fires but they could do something like that. You could even pick some off randomly to force a reaction or lay some booby traps. Spy on them until the people have to rest, sleep, eat or drink. If they had grenades, toss some into the herd. That 50 cal the saviours had would get shit done if they had bullets for it.

 

Really, at worst you’d just wait for extreme weather because that expose them one way or another.

 

 

9 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

It would also be pretty cool (no pun intended) to see walkers led out on to a frozen lake with really thin ice, just to watch them fall through.  Of course after the spring thaw they would probably just walk right out of the lake. 

 

Honestly, in a cold winter they’d freeze and people could go kill them. Lure them somewhere contained, wait until they freeze and then start killing as many as you can.

[watch2much]

3 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to spoil that for you. I thought that had already revealed it on the show. 

in retrospect now I see they did. you didn't spoil it for me.  I'm just disappointed because I thought that would be a great way to take the show.  Except for when they went to the CDC and with Eugene's charade about knowing how to cure it, they have never done anything with the actual virus.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Oberyn was most definitely sloppy because of his over confidence. His dicking around was sloppiness.

Who was Oberyn?

[LydiaMoon1]

Sooooo.....I saw a clip of the show on Tumblr and curiosity has gotten the best of me. I have to ask. What is the deal with the Kingdom and why is the fair so important to them?

[CrashTextDummie]

The entire A Plot (Eugene rescue effort) worked REALLY well and the graveyard showdown was the best and most suspenseful stuff TWD has delivered in years. Amazing what a bit of fog, an unpredictable herd and an actually shocking character death can do. There is still every chance that the Whisperers stoyline will turn out to be dumb, but if the show could maintain this kind of energy and tension year round instead of for 5 minutes at the end of a (mid-season) finale, I would very easily find myself back fully and enthusiastically on board. As it were, I'm actually fairly excited to see where it goes on the strength of that final scene alone. That was an honest-to-god well executed cliffhanger. I didn't think they had it in them.

The rest of the hour was mostly The Walking Dead at its Walking Deadliest, but I'm willing to look past that. Still, you almost have to be thankful they offed Carl so he doesn't have to suffer through the trite teenage stuff they are writing for Henry now. Speaking of Henry, I find him more tolerable now that he's not just a replacement moppet anymore, in spite of the triteness. There are shades of an actual character, there is still hope for him. I also like the new people. Yep, I'm actually feeling not too unhappy about the show at the moment. And I didn't see that coming.

Edited to add: I will also give a shout out to the cinematography in this episodes. There were several establishing shots, especially of Hilltop, that gave off a classical horror vibe. This show has never been particularly strong at doing horror (a bit ironic, considering it's a zombie show) and I thought they were pretty dang successful at establishing a sense of foreboding dread that fed really well into the final scene.

Edited November 29, 2018 by CrashTextDummie

[Colorado David]

Ok, my two cents. Not digging the idea of evolved walkers - this means their brains can evolve, so now in theory they are a quasi-sentient form of life?? Are we going to end up going down the morality road of what kind of life is allowed to live?? Or are the base walkers still just walkers, and the only talkers are the normal people in the skinsuits?? Because I do NOT like that direction for the show. And agreed with the poster above who pointed out the flaws in wearing stitched on skins as camo, no way that works long term AND yep with the stench, pretty sure real alive people would at least gag part of the time. Plus what are the normal people eating, and how? Do they just drift away from the giant herd awhile so they can chow down their lunch, and then drift back in?? SO SO SO far fetched.

I don't mind following the teen stories, as they will be the future adults - in fact the more messed up they are, the better, as I'm sure teens in that situation really would be. 

BOO on Jesus' treatment, he got a minute long slowmo exit scene?? He was way more interesting a character than that, and deserves better.  I hope the actor comes back in another good series. 

UGH Negality is on the loose again, oh yay. I'm sure he'll look up with another gang and we'll have pontification again soon. (And irritating, take the stupid tennis ball with you - tennis balls are endless fun.)

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

THIS. Can you imagine how tiresome it would be to have to shuffle around all day whispering and wearing walker skins? During the middle of a Georgia summer? Why would anybody do that? I thought the trash people were loony. This takes stupid to a whole 'nother level.

Although they film in GA, the recent seasons are supposed to be in VA (or at least the DC area).  Not that VA summers are much more comfortable.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Who was Oberyn?

Oberyn Martell, Game of Thrones. He was in a fight to the death with an opponent, got cocky when he thought he'd won, and ended up getting his skull smashed. 

[Nashville]

19 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Prostitution is supposed to be "the oldest profession".   I am shocked that we haven't seen any prostitutes in the ZA.

Who’s to say we haven’t?  Although it might be a lot harder to pick out in a barter economy....  ;>

 

Quote

I don't understand why Henry was sent to The Hilltop to be an apprentice blacksmith.  The Kingdom, Alexandria, and The Hilltop, all have horses.  I would have thought for sure that all three communities would have blacksmiths and apprentices.  At a minimum, someone has to be making horseshoes and farming tools.

You’re equating farriers to blacksmiths - two different specialties.  A farrier may have some rudimentary blacksmithing skills and tools, but not much more than is required to make and fit horseshoes.  Tool fabrication and other such advanced metalwork would be way out of the average farrier’s wheelhouse.

 

Quote

All three communities have gardens and animals.   Alexandria even has a windmill.  It seems to me that these communities really shouldn't need each other to survive.

I expect prior to whatever Big Split happened between the settlements, copies of Georgie’s handbook were being passed around liberally.  Wasn’t windmill construction one of the plans we saw in the handbook...?

 

Quote

Something drove all three communities apart

Hardly anything concrete has been said yet of what precipitated the Big Split - but there have been some clues:

1. Alexandria and Hilltop appear to be getting on okay; the Kingdom is struggling with maintaining its infrastructure basics, though, and the Sanctuary has totally collapsed.  These disparities point to an overall decrease in intercommunity support - which wasn’t the case before Rick went out with a bang.
2. Inter-settlement communication and travel has all but been eliminated as well.  Witness Michonne’s anger with Aaron upon finding out he and Jesus had been <gasp> talking; Michonne seemed to treat it as a personal betrayal.
3. The Kingdom appears to be the primary community pushing an inter-settlement “fair”; prior to his demise Jesus appeared pessimistic about the fair, and Michonne is adamantly opposed to the notion.
4. Most of the inter-settlement hostility appears focused at Michonne, both at Hilltop and the Kingdom.  It was clear Michonne hadn’t been to Hilltop for a couple of years at least; upon her arrival, though, the hostility from the Hilltop gatekeeper was noticeable- and Tara’s relative coldness towards a fellow CDBer she apparently hadn’t seen in years was both surprising, and telling.  
5. We also see indications of an amiable relationship between Hilltop and Kingdom folk (Henry’s welcome, Kingdom fighters manning watch on Hilltop’s gates, Kingdom riders with Hilltop-manufactured spears, etc.) - but none such toward the Alexandria folk, other than the DL conversations between Jesus and Aaron.

My guess(es)?  

• At some point (immediately? later?) after Ricky and the bridge went Big Bang, Michonne went hermit - totally withdrawing from trade or communications with the other settlements, and taking Alexandria with her.
• An instigating factor in Alexandria becoming the new Hermitage may have been reconstruction of the bridge.  Its stated purpose was to foster travel and trade between the settlements, to everybody’s benefit; with the defection of Sanctuary’s labor force, though, the remaining settlements would’ve been hard-put to complete the project.  If Michonne had refused Alexandria’s continued participation in the project - preferring to keep the bridge ruins intact as a monument to Rick, maybe? - then the other settlements would have suffered as a result, and hard feelings may have been generated.
• During the Last Battle with the Saviors, some settlements suffered disproportionately greater damage than others.  Hilltop was relatively unscathed, and Alexandria suffered some degree firebombing damage to both homes and their solar power array, to be sure; the Kingdom was almost totally razed and most its people killed, though, and the Sanctuary had been shot to hell by all those flying bullets which couldn’t hit a Negan for shit.  At the beginning of S9 (~18mos after the Last Battle) both Alexandria and Hilltop seemed pretty firmly back on their feet, but both the Kingdom and Sanctuary were still desperately trying to rebuild.  A cutoff and/or embargo of resources would’ve hit the Kingdom with its rebuilding efforts disproportionately hard, and probably directly contributed to the Sanctuary’s collapse.

 

Quote

I suppose they are going to have that fair after all in memory of Jesus.

 

Would that be Easter?  ;)

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nashville
Kingdom pushing the fair, not Hilltop

[rab01]

Nashville -- That's a pretty good start towards the speculation but there was probably also a specific inciting incident, not just a gradual drifting apart and not just political disagreements.  I think that because while at Hilltop Michonne mentioned a specific decision they didn't agree with but that it kept them alive to disagree.  Add to that the complete absence of any mention of Sanctuary and I'm guessing that Michonne burned Sanctuary to the ground after they had proven themselves unsustainable and refused to follow orders. It would also explain why there's no coldness between Carol and Michonne even though the Kingdom is suffering worse than Hilltop.  

I know that sounds like something that Maggie or Daryl would have done, rather than Michonne, but the show loves having the characters randomly switch sides on the big arguments so I could see them justifying the character change with Rick's death. 

[Gobi]

Another possible cause for the rift - Michonne, Darryl, and possibly others were used against their will in a game of human tic -tac -toe, explaining the "X" scars on their backs. 

[AngelaHunter]

22 minutes ago, Nashville said:

 If Michonne had refused Alexandria’s continued participation in the project - preferring to keep the bridge ruins intact as a monument to Rick, maybe?

That sounds reasonable when we saw the edict of a confused teenager practically being carved in stone tablets as The Law. I guess no one ever did bother trying to find the Remains of Ricky, well, except Daryl, who has spent six years combing the woods, apparently somehow thinking he might find Rick or his walker carcass behind a bush.

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Too bad.  The Whisperers could dress up as snowman and sneak up on the protagonists. 

I swear the posters here have much better imaginations and talent than anyone on the staff of TWD. That would be, so, like - KEWL.

5 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

I think The Whisperers are a perfect example of that, when reading a comic you don’t think about whether something is plausible or believable, pretty much anything goes.

Exactly what I've said. I can't help wondering about the logistics and behind the scenes stuff of things we see on this show, e.g. The Governor's heads in tanks. Looks cool, but I thought of how he'd explain his vision, get his minions to scour petstores in the regions, give them a list what size tanks and what sort of pumps, filters, etc. they need and tell them not to forget the formaldehyde, or Jadis' Garbage Pail Kids and how much time they took each day to rehearse that crazy synchronized marching thing they did for no apparent reason, or even the Termites, with Gareth stating, "Okay, people. We need to set up an efficient assembly line to kill, drain and process human beings so we can eat them. Who wants to do the head-bashing and throat-slitting?" I can't even go into the insanity of the Saviors with the days of work and fuel and heavy equipment they needed to cut all those huge trees and transport them to the middle of a road and stack them for no other reason than to pull a "Nyah, nyah!" on CDB. All stuff that works fine in comic books where anything goes (I loved comic books as a kid), but not live action with real people. TPTB just can't make that distinction.

16 hours ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

I honestly think Andrew Lincoln left after Chandler Riggs got the boot.

Maybe that was just the last nail in the coffin. Or maybe his decision was sealed after TPTB had him racing after Negan with rifle, pistol and axe, missing with all, then had him grab Lucille by the barbed wire end, deliver a few halfhearted thumps to Negan, jump out a window and leave Negan not-dead in Rick's own house and later have him whine to Michonne in a hang-dog way, "I tried to kill him...but I couldn't." Michonne is all, "There, there, honeybunch." Watching that amazing fuckfest had me thinking it was no wonder he looked so mortified. They turned Rick into a laughing stock, a fool and a subject of derisive memes.

[Token]

Are these Whisperers the same people who showed up a few season back with the W's carved into their foreheads?  I feel like that storyline kind of fizzled out and went no where.  Have they picked it up again now?

[amazinglybored]

18 minutes ago, rab01 said:

Nashville -- That's a pretty good start towards the speculation but there was probably also a specific inciting incident, not just a gradual drifting apart and not just political disagreements.  I think that because while at Hilltop Michonne mentioned a specific decision they didn't agree with but that it kept them alive to disagree.  Add to that the complete absence of any mention of Sanctuary and I'm guessing that Michonne burned Sanctuary to the ground after they had proven themselves unsustainable and refused to follow orders. It would also explain why there's no coldness between Carol and Michonne even though the Kingdom is suffering worse than Hilltop.  

I know that sounds like something that Maggie or Daryl would have done, rather than Michonne, but the show loves having the characters randomly switch sides on the big arguments so I could see them justifying the character change with Rick's death. 

 

I think it’s got to circle around Michonne and something she did or didn’t do... and Rick.

 

wouldn’t let or join in others wiping out the Saviours. In honour of Rick.

pushed others to try again with the saviours and house them. IHoR.

went on on the war path with the saviours in grief.   It backfired enough to get her and Daryl scarred.                               

Wouldn’t let others kill Negan part 2. The saviours tried to rescue him and help wasn’t forthcoming.  IHoR.

Wouldn’t trust and take in new people because of what happened around the time Rick died.                                 

Trusted and took in new people who betrayed them. IHoR

Started shit because Rick stupidly fell off a horse saving that failing bridge he blew up because of the plan to kill Negan. IHoR and grief rage.

Pulled back hard from the alliance they had going because of Rick’s death and it ended very badly.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Token said:

Are these Whisperers the same people who showed up a few season back with the W's carved into their foreheads?  I feel like that storyline kind of fizzled out and went no where.  Have they picked it up again now?

 

Afaik they’re different groups coincidentally starting with W.

[raven]

On 11/26/2018 at 8:31 PM, theredhead77 said:

That said - I totally loved the graveyard battle and the reveal of The Whisperers (I had a lucky guess a few weeks back since I don't read spoilers or the comics). The build up to the reveal, with the crew trying to figure out WTF is going on was fantastic. It was the first time in a long time I was creeped out and felt there was true peril and had no idea what was going on. It sucks Jesus died and that they didn't really give Maggie a proper exit. I want to know what happened between the camps. And FFS, just feed Negan to the Whisperers, or the zombies, or the teenagers. I don't care but the one thing I am not on an island about is Negan!

I can agree that the graveyard scenes were shot well (I was spoiled so the revelation wasn't a surprise).   It's nice to see some legit spooky stuff on the show.  I have to handwave away the plausibility of a bunch of people who think it's a swell idea to wear dead people's faces on their own faces.

I think Andrea Kang had done some decent stuff with the show but we're still bogged down and it often feels directionless.  One thing we all seem more interested in that the dead face wearers is what happened between the communities?  It would be far more interesting IMO to tell us and let us talk about it over the break rather than guess what happened.  This is one of the issues with the time jump.  I want to know how the councils were formed, are there committees, how are they managing upkeep of the buildings, do they do anything for fun (NOT the teenagers, I avoid YA shows for a reason).  What was it like for Michonne, managing Alexandria while raising two small children?   Has Carol really changed or is she using any minor excuse to indulge in some vengeance? 

It goes without saying we should have seen Maggie's departure. 

Quote

Ok, my two cents. Not digging the idea of evolved walkers - this means their brains can evolve, so now in theory they are a quasi-sentient form of life?? Are we going to end up going down the morality road of what kind of life is allowed to live??

There are no evolved walkers, only living people wearing dead people's faces over their own and moving among the walkers.

[dvil]

13 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

Can you imagine how tiresome it would be to have to shuffle around all day whispering and wearing walker skins? During the middle of a Georgia summer? Why would anybody do that? I thought the trash people were loony. This takes stupid to a whole 'nother level.

How do they take potty breaks? If they piss themselves, wouldn't the actual walkers smell the difference and attack?

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, rab01 said:

Nashville -- That's a pretty good start towards the speculation but there was probably also a specific inciting incident, not just a gradual drifting apart and not just political disagreements.  I think that because while at Hilltop Michonne mentioned a specific decision they didn't agree with but that it kept them alive to disagree.  Add to that the complete absence of any mention of Sanctuary and I'm guessing that Michonne burned Sanctuary to the ground after they had proven themselves unsustainable and refused to follow orders. It would also explain why there's no coldness between Carol and Michonne even though the Kingdom is suffering worse than Hilltop.  

I know that sounds like something that Maggie or Daryl would have done, rather than Michonne, but the show loves having the characters randomly switch sides on the big arguments so I could see them justifying the character change with Rick's death. 

Oh, yeah; what I was posting was purely guesswork based off general impressions - not anything resembling fact.  :)

 

7 hours ago, Token said:

Are these Whisperers the same people who showed up a few season back with the W's carved into their foreheads?  I feel like that storyline kind of fizzled out and went no where.  Have they picked it up again now?

Nah, that was a different group - the Wolves.  Carol killed and ate them all.  ;>

 

1 hour ago, dvil said:

How do they take potty breaks? If they piss themselves, wouldn't the actual walkers smell the difference and attack?

You think walkers don’t already smell like shit?  :>

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nashville
Correcting damn autocorrect

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I was going to go there, but I was too busy trying to dig myself out of holes in other threads, no need for me to dig myself another one here.

 

Something drove the communities (The Hilltop, Alexandria, and The Kingdom) apart, and Jesus was trying to mend fences, bringing them back together. Jesus thought the fair would help unite them.  Michonne didn't seem to want to have any part of the fair.  That said, now that Jesus has died, perhaps she will change her mind.

Since the six year time jump, we haven't heard anything about Sanctuary or Oceanside.

Oceanside was mentioned in the After School Special. One of the tens asked Henry if it was true that Oceanside was all women. He confirmed it was.

[mightysparrow]

15 hours ago, raven said:

I can agree that the graveyard scenes were shot well (I was spoiled so the revelation wasn't a surprise).   It's nice to see some legit spooky stuff on the show.  I have to handwave away the plausibility of a bunch of people who think it's a swell idea to wear dead people's faces on their own faces.

I think Andrea Kang had done some decent stuff with the show but we're still bogged down and it often feels directionless.  One thing we all seem more interested in that the dead face wearers is what happened between the communities?  It would be far more interesting IMO to tell us and let us talk about it over the break rather than guess what happened.  This is one of the issues with the time jump.  I want to know how the councils were formed, are there committees, how are they managing upkeep of the buildings, do they do anything for fun (NOT the teenagers, I avoid YA shows for a reason).  What was it like for Michonne, managing Alexandria while raising two small children?   Has Carol really changed or is she using any minor excuse to indulge in some vengeance? 

It goes without saying we should have seen Maggie's departure. 

There are no evolved walkers, only living people wearing dead people's faces over their own and moving among the walkers.

Thank you for pointing this out.  Michonne isn't just running a community.  She's also raising, not one but TWO small children, while her partner is off with some B-plot character.  I don't know why things are the way they are between the communities but I do know that Michonne isn't getting the benefit of the doubt that other characters are getting.  I've done it myself.   I see a lot of Michonne's behaviour is a result of loyalty to a man who isn't and never was worthy of her.  It makes me mad but I should also feel pity for a woman so loyal (and misguided) that she'll go against what she believes for love.

It was a bit much to see all the attitude that Michonne received when she approached Hilltop, especially from Tara.  WHO THE FUCK IS TARA TO JUDGE ANYBODY?  Didn't she arrive on the scene beside the man who destroyed Camp Dinner Bell's home and murdered Hershel? 

I was really surprised at just how sheepish Michonne was when she approached Carol.  It seems that Michonne feels bad about what went down.  It's easy for Carol to be on her high horse, she spends so much time up there, but maybe she should step the fuck off.  Carol had no problem bringing up Michonne's dead child in an attempt to manipulate Michonne  (manipulation is one of Carol's favourite weapons, along with matches and cookies) but if anyone knows how hard it is to be a mother in the ZA, it's Carol.  And Henry isn't exactly a glowing testament to her and Ezekiel's parenting skills. 

Since Maggie has been 'disappeared' we don't know what happened between her and Michonne and that really pisses me off.  I can't believe that the two of them would continue to be at odds after all that time, especially after Michonne discovered she was pregnant.  And what about Daryl?  Did he just sit in the woods, petting his pup while Rick's partner had to bear the burden of running a community and raising Rick's kids?  I'm hoping the story of the scars has something to do with Daryl being there for Michonne. 

It seems people forget that Michonne is the one who pushed for Alexandria and saved them all from a steady diet of dog.   Rick Grimes is the one who gets all the credit (and willingly took it) for being a 'leader' but he was against Alexandria.  Michonne had to persuade him to save his children's lives.  She also had to kick his ass to keep him from fucking things up, which he, Daryl and Carol were ready to do from Jump Street.

I don't know why Michonne is acting the way she is and it's really pissing me off.  But thank you @raven for reminding me that she's got a lot on her plate.  And she's all alone. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by mightysparrow

[Butless]

18 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

The entire A Plot (Eugene rescue effort) worked REALLY well and the graveyard showdown was the best and most suspenseful stuff TWD has delivered in years. Amazing what a bit of fog, an unpredictable herd and an actually shocking character death can do. There is still every chance that the Whisperers stoyline will turn out to be dumb, but if the show could maintain this kind of energy and tension year round instead of for 5 minutes at the end of a (mid-season) finale, I would very easily find myself back fully and enthusiastically on board. As it were, I'm actually fairly excited to see where it goes on the strength of that final scene alone. That was an honest-to-god well executed cliffhanger. I didn't think they had it in them.

The rest of the hour was mostly The Walking Dead at its Walking Deadliest, but I'm willing to look past that. Still, you almost have to be thankful they offed Carl so he doesn't have to suffer through the trite teenage stuff they are writing for Henry now. Speaking of Henry, I find him more tolerable now that he's not just a replacement moppet anymore, in spite of the triteness. There are shades of an actual character, there is still hope for him. I also like the new people. Yep, I'm actually feeling not too unhappy about the show at the moment. And I didn't see that coming.

Edited to add: I will also give a shout out to the cinematography in this episodes. There were several establishing shots, especially of Hilltop, that gave off a classical horror vibe. This show has never been particularly strong at doing horror (a bit ironic, considering it's a zombie show) and I thought they were pretty dang successful at establishing a sense of foreboding dread that fed really well into the final scene.

The show hasnt been strong at doing a horror vibe because, excluding the initial hospital scene when Rick wakes from his coma, its been a survivalist show and it got its audience off of that. The drama in showing how a group of people tried to survive an apocalyptic event. Had this been a straight horror show, it would have gotten shitty even faster, and far fewer people would be watching it.  I know that I never signed on to any horror alien supernatural or mystery shit, outside of the ZA itself, which they never handled consistently. But shitting there watching them go all Chiller Horror Theater was not received well. At all.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

Oceanside was mentioned in the After School Special. One of the teens asked Henry if it was true that Oceanside was all women. He confirmed it was.

Yeah, that was Gage.  And after Henry answered Gage, I’d guess the starry-eyed wistful sigh which escaped Gage means Addy ain’t putting out.  

Well... not to Gage, at least.  :>

[Nashville]

Quote

Something drove the communities (The Hilltop, Alexandria, and The Kingdom) apart, and Jesus was trying to mend fences, bringing them back together. Jesus thought the fair would help unite them.  Michonne didn't seem to want to have any part of the fair.  That said, now that Jesus has died, perhaps she will change her mind.

Jesus (Hilltop), or Ezekiel (Kingdom)?

 

Quote

Since the six year time jump, we haven't heard anything about Sanctuary or Oceanside.

 

Actually we have, although not in any great detail; Sanctuary is apparently defunct (Carol/Savior interactions), but Oceanside is still plodding along pretty much as before (Henry responding to Gage) - it still exists as an exclusively female community, at least.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nashville
Expansion

[rab01]

6 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Actually we have, although not in any great detail; Sanctuary is apparently defunct (Carol/Savior interactions), but Oceanside is still plodding along pretty much as before (Henry responding to Gage) - it still exists as an exclusively female community, at least.

In TWD-land, it's always dumb to ask "does that make sense" but ... does it make any sense for Oceanside to still be all female several years after the war? 

I'd get that it would always be a matriarchy but surely by now *some* of the women there would be interested in allowing the occasional man to apply for entry? Or at least be interested in having children and not exiling their male children?  Oceanside was not an enclave established by women solely attracted to other women but one where the men were all killed by saviors so wouldn't a few Oceansiders choose to resume male companionship? 

[Mu Shu]

On 11/26/2018 at 2:15 AM, Butless said:

Actress who plays Tara gives me the creeps, gor real. Shes like a modern day Manson girl. 

Ah shit.  That’s good.  

[Nashville]

Just now, rab01 said:

In TWD-land, it's always dumb to ask "does that make sense" but ... does it make any sense for Oceanside to still be all female several years after the war? 

I'd get that it would always be a matriarchy but surely by now *some* of the women there would be interested in allowing the occasional man to apply for entry? Or at least be interested in having children and not exiling their male children?  Oceanside was not an enclave established by women solely attracted to other women but one where the men were all killed by saviors so wouldn't a few Oceansiders choose to resume male companionship? 

Purely MHO, but I get the impression that while Oceanside didn’t start out that way, it sure as hell ended up that way.

Whatever its origins, Oceanside is now presented as exclusively female, and as a female “safe place”.  And I’d expect any Oceansiders who desired male companionship beyond the one-night-stand variety would probably leave Oceanside, simply because their male SO wouldn’t be welcome there.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

And I’d expect any Oceansiders who desired male companionship beyond the one-night-stand variety would probably leave Oceanside, simply because their male SO wouldn’t be welcome there.

And if I lived there, that would be me. *ahem*  Also, if I were interested in more than a one-night stand, I would hightail it outta there with my SO because there would probably be more women there who want men and I wouldn't want him to succumb to temptation.   He wouldn't get a harem, lol.

[AngelaHunter]

8 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Since Maggie has been 'disappeared' we don't know what happened between her and Michonne and that really pisses me off.

I'm thinking that Michonne continuing to keep, feed and protect Negan from those who would rightfully harm him would be a bone of contention between Maggie and Michonne that would not go away. I certainly wouldn't be willing to let bygones be bygones in that situation, seeing the man who murdered my husband and the father of my child being guarded tooth and nail by someone I would expect to be on my side. Hanging around and knowing the peasants are forced to care for and "feed Vaal" might drive me away too.

[raven]

Well Maggie had her chance and she decided not to kill Negan.  Is it ridiculous? Yes, but she decided to let him live because he would suffer more, or something.

So if Maggie is holding Negan being alive against Michonne and the people of Alexandria, it is stupid, because Maggie herself said it would be better to let him live when she was right there and had the chance to kill him. 

8 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

It's easy for Carol to be on her high horse, she spends so much time up there, but maybe she should step the fuck off.  Carol had no problem bringing up Michonne's dead child in an attempt to manipulate Michonne  (manipulation is one of Carol's favourite weapons, along with matches and cookies) but if anyone knows how hard it is to be a mother in the ZA, it's Carol. 

Though Carol is a manipulator, I didn't take that scene as manipulation.  I thought Carol genuinely was trying to talk to Michonne and was searching for common ground.  I wish we had more scenes of two good actresses working together.  Even if Carol was questioning her, I see nothing wrong with that, these people should be able to talk to each other and not just stumble around and give half sentences and half reasons about things.

[amazinglybored]

Didn’t they say Oceanside was now mostly women?

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, raven said:

Well Maggie had her chance and she decided not to kill Negan.  Is it ridiculous? Yes, but she decided to let him live because he would suffer more, or something.

Yes, it's so ridiculous, another silly anti-climax to a moment needlessly built up that again fizzled into nothing, so I disregarded it. I can't think of another reason for the hostility because if it has something to do with those stupid oooh! so mysterious "X" marks I don't want to know. Hmpphh! Hey, Maggie? Guess what? Your buddy Negan is footloose and fancy free again, and Glenn is still dead.

[rab01]

43 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I suppose I could deal with the girl with the glasses surviving, but the two douche bag twins not so much.

 

I thought Jesus was the one pushing hard for the fair to take place.  Michonne was the one acting like a wet blanket, wanting no part of it.

Successful storytelling by them -- I'm pretty sure they want us to be rooting for her to live and them to die.
 

I think the Fair is Ezekiel's idea and various people are trying to help him make it come together, Jesus having been one of them.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, rab01 said:

I think the Fair is Ezekiel's idea and various people are trying to help him make it come together, Jesus having been one of them.

My recollection was:

• Kingdom (Ezekiel) - primary driving force behind the fair, and most in need of it.
• Hilltop (Jesus) - iffy leaning to positive.  Jesus supports the concept, but getting some pushback from unspecified sources.
• Alexandria (Michonne) - generally against.  Michonne is dead-set against the fair; other ASZ entities appear neutral to faintly positive on the notion, but don’t feel strongly enough about it to push back against Michonne.
• Oceanside - no idea.

[LydiaMoon1]

What is the fair supposed to accomplish though?

[raven]

1 minute ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

What is the fair supposed to accomplish though?

My guess is just something fun, to bring the communities together.  For these reasons, I think it's a good idea; because it's TWD, I'm sure it will go to hell, if it happens  ;)

[AngelaHunter]

7 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

What is the fair supposed to accomplish though?

I have no idea, but I really want to see it. I'm sure it's going to deteriorate into a total mess of colossal proportions, because the road to Hell really is paved with good intentions. Maybe the New Kids on the Block will again get drunk and do something stupid? Someone will spike the punch and a free-for-all will ensue? Maybe Negan will crash the party? Can't wait.

[Gobi]

58 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

What is the fair supposed to accomplish though?

It's a Renaissance Faire, of course. Turkey legs for everyone!

[amazinglybored]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

I have no idea, but I really want to see it. I'm sure it's going to deteriorate into a total mess of colossal proportions, because the road to Hell really is paved with good intentions. Maybe the New Kids on the Block will again get drunk and do something stupid? Someone will spike the punch and a free-for-all will ensue? Maybe Negan will crash the party? Can't wait.

 

Oh god. It’s  going to be their version of the red wedding, isn’t it? The blue ball fair, as named by Negan. 

 

 

1 hour ago, raven said:

My guess is just something fun, to bring the communities together.  For these reasons, I think it's a good idea; because it's TWD, I'm sure it will go to hell, if it happens  ;)

 

I’m going to feel let down if it’s just for fun and it’s such a point of contention. I figured it was something more practical like a trade fair or signing up for apprenticeships.

[AngelaHunter]

Are there gonna be games? Jesters? Balloons? Surely there must still be some out-the-way dollar store around that has some dusty old party supplies hanging around.

1 hour ago, amazinglybored said:

Oh god. It’s  going to be their version of the red wedding, isn’t it?

I had to look that up on YT. Looks like fun. We can only hope.

 

1 hour ago, amazinglybored said:

The blue ball fair, as named by Negan

Speaking of jesters... All I know is that The Faire better be spectacular, after the teasing we've endured.

[Mu Shu]

3 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

What is the fair supposed to accomplish though?

An opportunity for Jerry and Zelda to wear their finest, dweebiest ren faire gear.

[Carl Malone]

Well I'm late to the party but I'm bored so here goes. Easiest way to defeat the whisperers is to just go full auto and shoot into heards. Might not hit them but you'll easily see who's dead and who isn't. I don't like how no one on the show fights the dead correctly... except for the eugene of the new group. Smart move using the car doors to stop them. Jesus and Aaron should have done that same thing with the choke point in the wall. It was only wide enough for one person to get through at the same time. They should have both posted up on the sides and start stabbing whoever came through. After five dead at most the hole would have been impossible to get through. Also in the initial death fight we see both jesus and aaron push the initial walkers away only to stab them a few seconds later. That's not how you do it. You kill the "leader" walkers and then fall back, only to kill the new leader walkers and then fall back again. Rinse and repeat. I also don't like how the first whisperer was essentially willing to sacrifice himself so kill Jesus. Seriously you made it this far in the world only to die to kill one guy when your backup isn't even ready to back you up? Ridiculous.

Other thoughts- why was the herd so focused on Eugene and Aaron instead of Daryl? I doubt they saw the group split up, but maybe they knew the firecrackers were a distraction. I don't fully understand how the whisperers are able to steer the group when there is an overpowering external stimulus. Firecrackers and a dog barking are much louder than whispering yet the whole herd shifted. There should have been a straggler or two that went in daryls direction. But its tv so why would it make sense

On 11/28/2018 at 12:26 AM, Brooke0707 said:

Wait so, did I understand that right? Regular people are sewing dead faces on and pretending to be walkers? I don’t get it. What is the point of doing that?  Not to mention disgusting. Why don’t they just try being human murderers? What am I missing? Or are they walkers with two faces? That doesn’t make sense either. I’m confused!

To be fair, I couldn’t make out what Daryl said at the end. Maybe he explained it.

it's the same concept of covering yourself in walker blood to blend in. It allows them to move freely. Although I'm not sure why they choose to literally sew their faces on.

[amazinglybored]

13 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I had to look that up on YT. Looks like fun. We can only hope.

 

The cast instantly gets to a more manageable number and maybe some disliked characters die violently. Dare to dream.

 

Or, since it’s TWD Negan kills some characters I like and wins while monologuing in the middle of it.

[OoohMaggie]

14 hours ago, Carl Malone said:

it's the same concept of covering yourself in walker blood to blend in. It allows them to move freely. Although I'm not sure why they choose to literally sew their faces on.

When Rick and Glenn initially tried the Walker guts trick, it worked until the rain washed the residue off of the sheets they were wearing, to make the skin faces that the Whisperers are using bearable to wear, they will have to be cleaned to a certain degree, surely that cleansing process will negate any effect that they would have in fooling the Walkers into believing that they are one and the same. They only appear to be using skin to cover the face, which I don’t think would be sufficient to fool the Walkers into not attacking the Whisperers, but maybe I need to relax and just go with the flow of the show Lol