S11.E08: The Witchfinders

[hnygrl]

It DOES bother me that they don't wear period clothing and nobody in whatever period they land in don't seem to care. I mean, you in the 15th century when any and everything that's off-center is considered the work of the devil? These four people show up in form-fitting, 'sensual' clothing? Showing off their bodies that way? So blatantly? And NOBODY got offended? NOBODY? I have a problem with that.

It DOES help to fan-wank that the tardis supplies camouflage for them but if the writers are going to negate that I have a problem with it. 

King James wanting Ryan to be his 'protector' with that 'smile' on his face? Hilarious! I laughed so hard! (first time this season!!!)

First thing I do now is check and see if Chibnall wrote/co-wrote/directed it and if he did  I already know the ending's gonna suck. But he didn't this go round and guess what? STUCK THE LANDING!  In a sucky, sucky season, this episode didn't suck. It was still stressful and annoying and SJW-ish to the freaking max (women as second class citizens much? Damn) but overall it was not bad...

I kept thinking "wish you'd stayed a MAN now don'tcha?" Every time she got told to shut up, be quiet, stop thinking, etc. cause as a male doctor she didn't have to deal with this. She was automatically listened to as an expert simply because of the penis....

 

See? SJW to the max. Can't we have ONE DAMN EPISODE that doesn't cater to this shit?

[Dobian]

19 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I kept wondering what King James was doing in the Colonies, then I had to remind myself they were in England. Looks like witches were a "problem" on both sides of the pond.

Witch hunts were fairly common in Europe going back to the middle ages.  I doubt that the real King James would have partaken in them, though.  He had more important things to do, and I doubt being personally on hand to massacre whole villages would have been a very good PR move.  But the show wanted an excuse to put the flamboyant king into the middle of the action, so that's reason enough.

[tennisgurl]

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, it felt like a classic historical Who episode to me. It had a lot of drama, a lot of comedy, and memorable side characters, both the historical characters, and the made up ones. I really liked that they dealt with the Doctor being a woman in this incarnation, and how that can make her ability to jump right in and take charge rather difficult in some parts of the past. 

We got some solid guest casting this week! Alan Cumming is clearly the big get here, but I also liked seeing O'Brian from Downtown Abbey as Becka, and the actress who played Willa held her own as well. I know that Alan Cumming tends to ham it up to almost impossible levels, but I thought it worked here, and he dialed it back a few times to lend to some really nice character beats. I liked his take on King James, and how he was managed to be silly, threatening, and sympathetic at various times. He was kind of the side antagonist, but he also more or less came around and helped the Doctor, and the show did clearly have some sympathy for him and his never ending tragedies, and how his horrible luck has led him to this point. And his crush on Ryan was hilarious, and I loved seeing Ryan and the gangs reactions to it. I mean, I dont know how most people would handle being hit on by a historical figure you've certainly grown up learning about, including being called a "Nubian Prince" by said historical figure, but he played it well. As for the real King James sexuality...yeah pretty much all historians say he was definitely either gay, or bisexual, and leaning towards men. He had heirs, but thats just kind of what you did when you were royalty (lay back and think of England and all that) and need more kids to keep the line moving. I also liked that he seemed to be deliberately hiding a Scottish accent behind a fancy English accent. 

There were really a lot of nice little historical bits thrown in for people who know more about the time period, like the reference to John Dee, Queen Elizabeth's (the woman who had James mother executed) official court magician, and the Witchfinder General was a real guy who ran around England during the British Civil War executing witches and holding witch trails. I do wish that the gang would wear more historical clothes though. I just like costumes damn it!

The mud alien/witches were cool, and looked really creepy. They were a nice villain to have causing trouble in this historical story. And Jodie had some real meaty material this week, especially when she was telling King James how she understood how people could get scared and want safety and security, but that people can do better than that. She also had some fun scenes in the start, being super excited about the party and the apples and such. Also loved her quoting Clarkes Third Law at the end. It was a really good showcase for her Doctor. 

[Chaos Theory]

Also in this episode they didn’t know...,when they were.  They ASKED a lot of people a few times where and when they were.  It’s hard to pick proper attire when your time machine is being ornery.  

You might argue that they could have changed later but going back to the time machine has its own problems and also wastes time they might not have.....just to put on a dress.  

Edited November 27, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Occasional Hope]

I thought James should have had a broader Scots accent.

But historically he really was obsessed with witches and involved in specific cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemonologie

http://llewellyn.com/journal/article/2186

[ElleryAnne]

Pretty good episode.  One of the few this season that I enjoyed enough to watch again.  I found it visually appealing - the setting, the mud aliens (their make-up as well as the physical staging of them in the woods), the costumes (particularly James')... it was engaging to watch.  The plot wasn't bad, and it had elements of creepiness that weren't just depressingly due to the flaws of mankind.  And there were some good lines throughout.  In general, it felt like an episode of Doctor Who.

I'm one of those who is annoyed by the inattention to period clothing, but I've just decided to accept that the bar isn't set very high this season on things like that.  It takes me out of the story sometimes (it did in Demons of the Punjab, as well), but if the story overall is good enough, I get drawn back into it quickly enough.  

AC was great as King James.  The role suited his style well.  (Or vice versa.)  JW, as usual, was excellent.  

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Also in this episode they didn’t know...,when they were.  They ASKED a lot of people a few times where and when they were.  It’s hard to pick proper attire when your time machine is being ornery.  

You might argue that they could have changed later but going back to the time machine has its own problems and also wastes time they might not have.....just to put on a dress.  

They were aiming for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth I, they said so (missed by about 50 years). That being the case - all the more reason to dress appropriately! I don't mind them wandering around in their normal gear if they end up in the past by accident, but if they are deliberately choosing to go to the past, they should dress accordingly.

7 hours ago, hnygrl said:

It was still stressful and annoying and SJW-ish to the freaking max (women as second class citizens much? Damn) but overall it was not bad...

SJW? You're kidding, right? In the 17th century, women were second class citizens. Ignoring that fact - in the middle of an episode about witch hunts in particular - would have been as anachronistic as Yasmin's jeans. Historical episodes are supposed to portray the period of time they are set in as accurately as possible,  or what's the point? And the truth is that misogyny has played a big part in human history, in some eras rather more so than others. In the early 17th century when witch hunt fever was rife, a huge number of innocent women were victimised and murdered, that is just a historical fact. This episode is about witch hunts in the early 17th century, therefore of course it portrayed the kind of sexism women would have faced back then, it had to - just as an episode set in the American South in the 1950s had to acknowledge the racism of that time and place. Telling the truth about an era of history, and using the truth about that era to create a television drama, is not being a 'social justice warrior', it is just historical accuracy.

[tennisgurl]

Its too bad that King James didnt happen to meet Captain Jack. I feel like they would have really gotten along. 

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Occasional Hope said:

I thought James should have had a broader Scots accent.

But historically he really was obsessed with witches and involved in specific cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemonologie

http://llewellyn.com/journal/article/2186

He was raised in a high born court so he probably didn't speak like Billy Connolly but he does use the term 'lassie' to remind us that he's James the 6th as well as James the 1st. 

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

Witch hunts were fairly common in Europe going back to the middle ages.  I doubt that the real King James would have partaken in them, though.  He had more important things to do, and I doubt being personally on hand to massacre whole villages would have been a very good PR move.  But the show wanted an excuse to put the flamboyant king into the middle of the action, so that's reason enough.

The line I kept expecting him to come up with was "It is better my people to come together against witches than Catholic against Protestant". Surprised they didn't make a gunpowder plot joke?

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, Llywela said:

We will never know for sure, sure - but given the existence of letters in which James referred to Buckingham as his 'husband', 'sweetheart', and the one he loved 'more than anyone else', explicitly writing that 'I desire to live in this world only for your sake', not to mention constructing secret tunnels to connect their bedchambers...it does seem pretty safe to presume that they were more than just good friends!

I stand corrected, everyone is always saying historical figures were gay, Richard the Lionheart and Abraham Lincoln etc but that's pretty convincing. 

[AudienceofOne]

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

Telling the truth about an era of history, and using the truth about that era to create a television drama, is not being a 'social justice warrior', it is just historical accuracy

Didn't you know that historical accuracy is being a SJW now? And scientific facts are socialism. And documented events are fake news? And repeating things that people actually said and did is defamation? Welcome to the post-factual world. It's a fricking nightmare. 

[ae2]

4 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Didn't you know that historical accuracy is being a SJW now? And scientific facts are socialism. And documented events are fake news? And repeating things that people actually said and did is defamation? Welcome to the post-factual world. It's a fricking nightmare. 

And ascribing faults to people for things they never said! It's a hollow man nightmare!

[Dobian]

18 hours ago, Occasional Hope said:

I thought James should have had a broader Scots accent.

But historically he really was obsessed with witches and involved in specific cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemonologie

http://llewellyn.com/journal/article/2186

It was fun learning about him and his preoccupation with witches.  He was a pretty nutty king.

[Eulipian 5k]

Did Ryan actually get that he was being hit upon? By the King of the realm? It's fascinating to learn all the intrigue and gossip from "merry" ole England/Britain.

I hope Alan C. had some ale to wash down all the scenery he was chewing, Dilly, Dilly. This was as wild a performance as Tom Hulce did in 1984's Amadeus. Seeing the Doctor referred to as "Lassie" was priceless.. at least he didn't call her a timorous beastie.

[libgirl2]

52 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Did Ryan actually get that he was being hit upon? By the King of the realm? It's fascinating to learn all the intrigue and gossip from "merry" ole England/Britain.

I hope Alan C. had some ale to wash down all the scenery he was chewing, Dilly, Dilly. This was as wild a performance as Tom Hulce did in 1984's Amadeus. Seeing the Doctor referred to as "Lassie" was priceless.. at least he didn't call her a timorous beastie.

The look on his face told me he got it. 

11 hours ago, eliot90000 said:

It’s one thing to know something to be the case and another to actually experience it.

Exactly. I guess he/she finally got to see the female companion side. 

[taanja]

On 11/26/2018 at 12:28 AM, Llywela said:

Don't mistake a throwaway gag in one episode for a permanent feature of the show. The TARDIS has never 'disguised' its occupants to look appropriate in any given timezone before - if they know they are going to the past, they usually dress accordingly. And have fun doing so - remember Rose's excitement at dressing up for the Victorian era, her first trip to the past.

I have decided that the biggest problem I have with Thirteen is her overuse of the word 'presumably'. She says it All. The. Time. Like, twice in one short speech, so that it really stands out. And sure, the Doctor is usually guessing, extrapolating, making explanations up as they go along, but they aren't usually so obvious about it! It makes her seem really uncertain, where the Doctor would more normally project confidence.

That is what stood out to me this ep-- the Doctor came across and confused and fearful. The Doctor-- no matter the situation or the trouble or whatever-- was always the smartest one on the room. Always winging it-- always in control/confident even when he/she wasn't. YKWIM?

The not changing into time appropriate clothing took me out of the ep. Especially Ryan's big puffy jacket.

Though don't get me wrong -- I did like it.

[TwirlyGirly]

9 minutes ago, taanja said:

<snip> The Doctor-- no matter the situation or the trouble or whatever-- was always the smartest one on the room. Always winging it-- always in control/confident even when he/she wasn't. YKWIM? <snip>

I must respectfully disagree, especially in terms of 12.

One of the things I disliked about 12 - most notably during his first season - was that he often came across as totally clueless. If not for Clara, often telling him what to do - he would have completely mucked things up. Contrast that to 10 and 11, who both came out of the starting gate pretty much full speed ahead (despite dealing with the effects of regeneration, which they ALL do)  - 10 dealt with the Sycorax, and 11 with Prisoner Zero.

I, too, really liked the episode!

[ganesh]

This was a lot of fun, but scary and exciting at the same time. I didn't have a problem with the psychic paper listing the Doctor as 'witchfinder assistant.' Also funny hats. 

They give Graham one good rip every episode - 'well when you put it like that it makes total sense.'

I was getting a little sick of how everyone was a witch and satan this and satan that, but it was because the woman was hiding her injury/infestation. 

I kind of wish they could have just convinced the aliens to leave than to imprison them again. It's not like they aren't still going to be mad. I guess moving the entire town and wiping it from history and no one would think to go there. 

The king was a little much, but hitting on Ryan cracked me up. 

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its too bad that King James didnt happen to meet Captain Jack. I feel like they would have really gotten along. 

You win. 

6 hours ago, taanja said:

That is what stood out to me this ep-- the Doctor came across and confused and fearful.

She knew something was going on but just couldn't figure it out until the end. I'd say she was at least half a step ahead because she knew the not-mud was alien and really didn't click until the tree branch she was chained two flashed lightning. 

[John Potts]

One unfortunate outcome of this story would be that a witch hunt found somebody who really was possessed - granted, by an alien rather than a devil, but beings from the underworld (alien prison) escaped into our world and took over the bodies of (presumably) "true born Christians". Yes, the fact that it was the witch hunter herself who was actually possessed and that the King came round to the Doctor's point of view would tend to mitigate the effects of that, but this story will no doubt inspire yet more witch hunts. I know they said that nobody had heard of the town, but some story is bound to get out (if only because the King actually had his right hand man killed).

[Eulipian 5k]

10 hours ago, eliot90000 said:

That “SJW” nonsense is actually about people looking to be excused for their rudeness.  I tend to disregard anything anyone who uses that term says.

Nice.

It sounds like the privileged, (or aspirants to), have come up with a term so that they can ignore people. "Oh that Rosa Parks, she's just an SJW so let's label her and ignore her cause"; (or accuse her of playing the race card).

[babs j.]

James I's parents had the same grandmother- Henry VIII's elder sister Margaret - really narrowed the gene pool.  Probably worse than Victoria and Albert being first cousins.

[Eulipian 5k]

Just re watched the 12th, (PC) lecturing Bill about the change from The Master to Missie.

The Doctor: "Oh we're an advanced society way beyond your petty divisions of gender..."

Bill Potts: "Yet you call yourselves Time Lords"

The Doctor: "Shut up"

Do ordinary Gallifreyans have to defer to Time Lords? Do they enter the TARDIS from the back?

[rab01]

49 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Do ordinary Gallifreyans have to defer to Time Lords? Do they enter the TARDIS from the back?

Aren't they all time lords?  

[Eulipian 5k]

9 minutes ago, rab01 said:

Aren't they all time lords?  

No. In "Listen" as his folks entered the barn where the young doctor was asleep, (Clara under the bed), you could hear them lament "If he keeps this up, he'll never become a Time Lord". So I gather it's an earned title, like a Shao-Lin monk or a Jedi.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Eulipian 5k
use a 21st century reference!

[ganesh]

That was like that in the classic era iirc. The Time Lords were basically the government. 

[DanaK]

Just now, ganesh said:

That was like that in the classic era iirc. The Time Lords were basically the government. 

It also seems like a Gallifreyan had to go to school to learn how to be a Time Lord, learning things like regeneration. Do we know if offspring of Time Lords, like the Doctor's granddaughter Susan, had the same powers and abilities like The Doctor does?

In regards to the episode, I wonder if the Doctor was just pretending she couldn't get out of the rope tie when she was tied up before the trial in order to get through to King James, or was she really unable to get free? It was obvious that she figured she could wiggle free of the dunking trap because of her ability to hold her breath and get out of chains thanks to Houdini

I somewhat had to feel sorry for Becka with what she was going through. She was terrified and had no understanding what was happening to her. Unfortunately, she went with the superstitions of her time and lashed out in a way she understood and killed 36 women. I think the actress really sold her distress there after the dunking when the "mud-people" were approaching and she told her story.

[ganesh]

No, they're "given" a set of 12 regenerations on becoming Time Lords. Eleven was given another set from them on Trenzalore. 

[DanaK]

On 11/25/2018 at 3:42 PM, MarquisDeCarabas said:

What did the Doctor say when she put on the witch finder hat?

Something like "it's a flat team structure", similar to what Graham said to King James during their initial meeting

[rab01]

26 minutes ago, ganesh said:

No, they're "given" a set of 12 regenerations on becoming Time Lords. Eleven was given another set from them on Trenzalore. 

Wait, but River Song also had regenerations just from having been conceived on the Tardis, right?  She used up one or two before meeting the Doctor and then gave him all of her remaining regenerations to undo his death in the Kill Hitler episode ... 

So, are regenerations related to the TARDIS technology and then bestowed by the Time Lords?  And, are ordinary Gallifreyans really OK with some people in their society being granted multiple lives but not them?

Edited November 30, 2018 by rab01

[ganesh]

Timey whimey. 

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, rab01 said:

Wait, but River Song also had regenerations just from having been conceived on the Tardis, right?  She used up one or two before meeting the Doctor and then gave him all of her remaining regenerations to undo his death in the Kill Hitler episode ... 

Wow, you mean Moffatt repeatedly broke established world building mythology for his own plot purposes? Stunned.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, DanaK said:

Something like "it's a flat team structure", similar to what Graham said to King James during their initial meeting

'Flat team structure', yes, repeating what Graham had said earlier - i.e. non-hierarchical. It was Graham's way of trying to make her feel better about having him put in charge over her - and then her way of agreeing that yes, they are a team, non-hierarchical.

I invite everyone curious to know more about ordinary Gallifreyans and Time Lords to go away and watch the Fourth Doctor adventure 'The Invasion of Time', which was the first time the show offered any real information about the wider population of Gallifrey. But also bear in mind that the mythology of Time Lords has grown piecemeal over the 55 years of the show, and a lot of it was written by people with no access to detailed information about what their predecessors had said about it.

[WatchrTina]

Most of the aliens were inhabiting dead bodies so when they were forced back into their prison, the human bodied they had been reanimating fell to the ground.  That's not the case for the main character (can't remember her name -- the one who kept stirring up witch-hysteria so no one notices she was leaking black ooze.)  That human was not dead -- her body was shared with an alien.  If they could have forced the parasitic alien back into the prison, perhaps she could have lived.  But King James killed her, which angered The Doctor.  

This has been a recurring theme ever since 13 turned up.  Remember that scene on the crane in the very first episode?  The Doctor got mad when someone kicked the bad guy off the crane.  She likewise got angry when one of her team used that alien weapon on the bad guy in the Rosa episode.  I feel like this is all leading to something.  I feel like we are headed to an episode where all of those deaths are going to mentioned -- where someone (maybe the companions) are going to be on trial and we're going to be treated to a retrospective of all the people that have been killed by companions or in the general vicinity of this particular Doctor.

[AnimeMania]

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

She likewise got angry when one of her team used that alien weapon on the bad guy in the Rosa episode.

Ryan didn't really kill him, just sent him to another time period.

[WatchrTina]

On 12/1/2018 at 5:58 AM, AnimeMania said:

Ryan didn't really kill him, just sent him to another time period.

True but that's exactly what the weeping angels do.  They don't "kill" you.  They transport you so far back in time that you die before you can live your way back to the time you were from. (Or at least that is true most of the time -- I think we did see an elderly Rory on his death-bed in the "Angels Take Manhattan" episode.)  Weeping angels are one of the creepiest villains in the history of the series so I can imagine The Doctor really not liking one of her companions using a weapon that emulates the Angels' particular evil skill.

Edited December 5, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Eulipian 5k]

23 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 They transport you so far back in time that you die before you can live your way back to the time you were from. (Or at least that true most of the time -- I think we did see an elderly Rory on his death-bed in the "Angels Take Manhattan" episode.)

We see Inspector Billy Shipton on his deathbed with Sally Sparrow in the original Blink episode. The angels zap you into the past and live off your life energy in the time you just vacated.

[starri]

I was very late to seeing this episode, but I enjoyed it very much.  Alan Cumming was clearly having a marvelous time with what he was doing.

Apparently he's been asked to be the Doctor once or twice, but has no desire to move to Cardiff.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:45 PM, Dobian said:

It was fun learning about him and his preoccupation with witches.  He was a pretty nutty king.

But a good one, too bad his son and one of his grandsons didn't follow his example. Would love a story with Charles 2nd, the party king but who founded the Royal Society. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Rainsodden]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, whoknowswho said:

They were saying "Duck" which is the historically correct term. We've changed it to "dunk", here in the Colonies, lol.

Honestly, I hated it.  First one I've really disliked.  Couldn't handwave the clothes or the fact that a woman--who would NEVER have been a "surgeon" (historically correct term) in that time period, just couldn't. And get pissed off every time they just ignore the fact that no woman would be seen without a bonnet on, let alone running around in pants/culottes or whatever it is.  Stop it, show.  Get around it by dressing them in somewhat proper costume or at least for those shows where it's obviously way in our past--if she says shes the Doctor--have them correct her and address it better, right there and then...women just were not doctors before the 1900s, anywhere in the world.  Bothers me when Outlander does it, bother's me in Doctor Who, too.  Women didn't chop down trees, or act as chief inquisitors, either.  We had no personal power, and hand waving it doesn't make it so.  Even if it's a kid's show, the premise was good, but it was just not a good one for me. 

ETA-I've been on this earth as long as The Doctor (1960s), times have changed a whole lot for us. 

I really like Jodie's character a lot, love the team but stories have sucked a bit.

Although not strictly relevant to this episode, you might be surprised to know the first women to qualify as doctors, in many countries including the UK, US, and Canada, was actually in the 1800s. Not many of them and they had a hard fight, but they did manage to get educated, qualify, and practice. (And, of course, there is a very long history of women practising medicine in various capacities, but I understand your gripe to be specifically about the title). 

To a certain extent, I agree with you. The lack of historic clothing does bother me, and I don't think we should gloss over the difficulties of women in the past, particularly given the rights women have today were hard-fought for. 

However, I also think there's a real danger in painting the past with too broad a brush. The status of women and ideas about gender roles vary from era to era (there's a train of thought that the redefinition of gender roles in the Victorian era seriously harmed women, and they had more freedom and possibilities in the eras immediately preceding, for instance), and there have been always been outliers--women who through birth, circumstances, or inclination did unusual things. There were women who had power--in most cases soft power, but in some cases direct power. It's also worth remembering that our perception of women in the past is often shaped by upper-class women, because they tend to be the ones stories are told about, and the lives of working class women were quite different (the general rule of thumb is the lower you are on the social pyramid, the more freedom you have, although by the same token your life is more likely to be nasty, brutish, and short.) And although I'm bugged by the lack of historic clothing, the idea of what was 'proper' is hugely region/era/class specific (I admit to not being hugely familiar with the 17th century, so can't comment, but in the 18th, daring young noblewomen did sometimes wear breeches to ride, and the impression I've gotten is it was considered mildly racy, but not a social shunning type offence.) I think it's a disservice to ignore what women did and could accomplish. 

That said, here's what we're told about Becka in this episode: a) she was born into what appears to be a peasant family, b) she married a wealthy landowner, c) said landowner is no longer in the picture so presumably she's a widow (I don't remember this being addressed in the episode, but please let me know if there was a line about it I missed.) 

With this in mind, I have no problem with her cutting down a tree. It's certainly not something an upperclasswoman would be doing normally, and it's a bit eccentric, but as a peasant lass, likely she was accustomed to hard labour before her marriage, and there appears to be no one in her family who could stop her from doing so. 

I also have no problem with her appointing herself chief inquisitor of the village because, well, taking care of the village would be her job. It would have been her husband's job, and in the absence of him having a son/brother/other male relative (which don't appear to exist), it would fall upon his widow. Remember that 'widow' was historically once the cushiest role for women, or at least women of rank and property. They no longer had to answer to husbands or fathers, they had control over their own property, in many eras standards of sexual morality were relaxed for them, and sometimes they inherited roles or responsibilities from their late husbands. (Note, as with all things, this does not uniformly apply across all eras and regions.) In this case, she exercised her responsibility for the village in the form of witch hunting. 

And I have really abused brackets in the post.

[DanaK]

@Rainsodden Becka’s husband had indeed died as I recall, so she was now a rare female landowner. Unfortunately, she let things get out of hand with the witch killin’

What was really interesting was how quickly she deferred to the Doctor, seeing her as a Witchfinder General when presented with the Psychic Paper id. The Doctor only implied she was someone in authority, not specifically what she was when she presented the id. It suggests strongly that Becka felt in desperate need of help, and perhaps as well, was easily willing to see another woman as someone in authority

Edited December 15, 2018 by DanaK

[whoknowswho]

20 hours ago, Rainsodden said:

Although not strictly relevant to this episode, you might be surprised to know the first women to qualify as doctors, in many countries including the UK, US, and Canada, was actually in the 1800s. Not many of them and they had a hard fight, but they did manage to get educated, qualify, and practice. (And, of course, there is a very long history of women practising medicine in various capacities, but I understand your gripe to be specifically about the title). 

To a certain extent, I agree with you. The lack of historic clothing does bother me, and I don't think we should gloss over the difficulties of women in the past, particularly given the rights women have today were hard-fought for. 

However, I also think there's a real danger in painting the past with too broad a brush. The status of women and ideas about gender roles vary from era to era (there's a train of thought that the redefinition of gender roles in the Victorian era seriously harmed women, and they had more freedom and possibilities in the eras immediately preceding, for instance), and there have been always been outliers--women who through birth, circumstances, or inclination did unusual things. There were women who had power--in most cases soft power, but in some cases direct power. It's also worth remembering that our perception of women in the past is often shaped by upper-class women, because they tend to be the ones stories are told about, and the lives of working class women were quite different (the general rule of thumb is the lower you are on the social pyramid, the more freedom you have, although by the same token your life is more likely to be nasty, brutish, and short.) And although I'm bugged by the lack of historic clothing, the idea of what was 'proper' is hugely region/era/class specific (I admit to not being hugely familiar with the 17th century, so can't comment, but in the 18th, daring young noblewomen did sometimes wear breeches to ride, and the impression I've gotten is it was considered mildly racy, but not a social shunning type offence.) I think it's a disservice to ignore what women did and could accomplish. 

That said, here's what we're told about Becka in this episode: a) she was born into what appears to be a peasant family, b) she married a wealthy landowner, c) said landowner is no longer in the picture so presumably she's a widow (I don't remember this being addressed in the episode, but please let me know if there was a line about it I missed.) 

With this in mind, I have no problem with her cutting down a tree. It's certainly not something an upperclasswoman would be doing normally, and it's a bit eccentric, but as a peasant lass, likely she was accustomed to hard labour before her marriage, and there appears to be no one in her family who could stop her from doing so. 

I also have no problem with her appointing herself chief inquisitor of the village because, well, taking care of the village would be her job. It would have been her husband's job, and in the absence of him having a son/brother/other male relative (which don't appear to exist), it would fall upon his widow. Remember that 'widow' was historically once the cushiest role for women, or at least women of rank and property. They no longer had to answer to husbands or fathers, they had control over their own property, in many eras standards of sexual morality were relaxed for them, and sometimes they inherited roles or responsibilities from their late husbands. (Note, as with all things, this does not uniformly apply across all eras and regions.) In this case, she exercised her responsibility for the village in the form of witch hunting. 

And I have really abused brackets in the post.

LOL-about the abused brackets.  I use brackets a lot, too.

I do realize women were traditional healers and midwives from the Middle Ages to present day.  It just was really dicey for them during certain centuries, in both England and North America. mid1500s-1700s generally was a bad time to be a woman, and practice medicine in general.  If you lived during the wrong age, you could be labeled a witch, and killed. All it took was an accuser.  Wasn't King James from the 1600s--isn't that the time period? If not, I need to go fix my post! 

If it had been 1800s and upwards in North America, women were much more free to practice medicine.  Not that it was ever a walk in the park, but the bad days during the witch trials in America, and I assume in England were truly dreadful for people marked as witches. If you were innocent, you died, if you were guilty, you died.  Lose/lose.

Being both what would be considered a pagan, and in medicine my whole life, it jarred me personally.

I have no trouble with Becka (theoretically) chopping down the tree, I'm a woman farmer with hand tools.  Would take me a week or so to chop that tree down with an axe, but that's quibbling.   More, it's the lack of period costume that bothers me. I had so much fun with a character I hate (Clara) during the Robots of Sherwood, because she and the Doctor were in period dress, it was a fun episode, although many hated it.  Surely the BBC has a costume dept?  If you go back to Mickey's seasons ( I think it was Micky, but maybe it was Rose) who had a puffy blue parka that bugged me.  Amy's mini skirts bugged me, too-- it's something Doctor Who isn't consistent with, people's attires.  If they are off world it isn't bad, but if they are in a period piece, I'd love to have The Doctor and companions (or "fam" lol), in such an important theme time to dress kinda for the occasion. Or just retcon it with a throwaway line at least about the Tardis projecting a hologram wardrobe for the companions, like they did for 11 and Clara. 

Possibly I got the years wrong. 

I'm from Canada and much more up on what happened historically here in NA, than England.  And too lazy to do googling, I need to go read Game of Thrones stuff. ;) 

[Occasional Hope]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:15 AM, whoknowswho said:

They were saying "Duck" which is the historically correct term. We've changed it to "dunk", here in the Colonies, lol.

Honestly, I hated it.  First one I've really disliked.  Couldn't handwave the clothes or the fact that a woman--who would NEVER have been a "surgeon" (historically correct term) in that time period, just couldn't. And get pissed off every time they just ignore the fact that no woman would be seen without a bonnet on, let alone running around in pants/culottes or whatever it is.  Stop it, show.  Get around it by dressing them in somewhat proper costume or at least for those shows where it's obviously way in our past--if she says shes the Doctor--have them correct her and address it better, right there and then...women just were not doctors before the 1900s, anywhere in the world.  Bothers me when Outlander does it, bother's me in Doctor Who, too.  Women didn't chop down trees, or act as chief inquisitors, either.  We had no personal power, and hand waving it doesn't make it so.  Even if it's a kid's show, the premise was good, but it was just not a good one for me. 

ETA-I've been on this earth as long as The Doctor (1960s), times have changed a whole lot for us. 

I really like Jodie's character a lot, love the team but stories have sucked a bit.

The history on DW is always a bit dodgy.  But then so is the science.

 

Actually, I have actually seen a licence for a woman as a surgeon in the 1660s (later than this, obviously, and extraordinarily rare, but still shows it was possible, and I believe there are a few examples elsewhere too.)  OTOH surgeons were not doctors but in lower regard.  The term Doctor was used only for someone with a higher academic degree, which would have been out of reach for women, and is most common at this date for DDs (Doctors of Divinity), with higher degrees in theology.  Doctors of physic(k) were what we now call medical doctors - in the US the term physician is still routine too. 

There had been women in the medieval ages who practiced medicine before the universities gained control of the subject, eg 'Dame Trotula'; and they were then more marginalised.

A number of women trained as doctors in the UK and the US in the 19th century.  

[John Potts]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:37 PM, AnimeMania said:

The Doctor get plenty of practice holding his/her breath every time he/she gets thrown out of the TARDIS into space.

Or maybe picked up a few tips from other Time Lords over the years - Romana could suspend her breathing completely (it's not spelled out for how long, but at least a few minutes).

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, John Potts said:

Or maybe picked up a few tips from other Time Lords over the years - Romana could suspend her breathing completely (it's not spelled out for how long, but at least a few minutes).

Respiratory bypass system - the Doctor has made use of that a few times over the decades. And the Third Doctor once put himself into a such a deep trance that he didn't need to breath at all, to survive being locked in a room with no oxygen. The Doctor has quite a few tricks up their sleeve for dealing with these situations!