Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[Lantern7]

Found this on Cheezburger . . . a study on howler monkeys from 2015. Given how those guys have popped up on several seasons of Survivor, I thought it wasn't too off-topic.

[marys1000]

Watched the first half of Africa last night.  I must of missed the discussion of the rule about whoever previously had the most votes at tribal council goes home after a tie, because I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they kep talking about it being such a big deal until Lxxxx?  (whiney blond girl whose name I've already forgotten) got voted off.  Was that the only time that twist was used?  I thought it was interesting, like a way to pad the deck against someone for later elimination.  Players have gotten more savvy with every season, I wonder how that twist would be used now.  It would require lots of interesting thought and strategizing.  

Every season, including the current Ghost Island there is a lot of complaining about not knowing cast members.  There is some of that in Africa.  Whatever team is losing and going to tribal gets all the air time.  Africa did benefit from that switching every few challegnes but still, you lose track and some members just don't get much air time.  I didn't know the T woman at all till the swap.  

Pretty good looking and quite fit bunch of 40+ castaways.  Even the fat farmer was a beast in challenges.   And more interesting than the whiney 4 layabouts.  Seriously I would have had the same problem as the older half of the tribe.  I mean, they weren't just lazy but cluelessly not nice at all.  I wonder how that was, being known as the laziest crew in Survivor history. 

Seemed a bit mean to have a big river nearby, beach? and not let them use it.  

The wildlife would have been incredible.  Best of any season.  

[ProfCrash]

The past vote count was used to break a tie up for the first three or four seasons. It was replaced by the rock draw at some point. I think the first time we saw that was on Marquesas. Vescepia's season... I am probably off on that.

I remember Jeff Varner being really worried in his season that the other tribe would know who had received votes because they could use that in a tie vote situation. The merge was marked by people reminding each other not to tell the other tribe who had received votes.

[fishcakes]

1 hour ago, marys1000 said:

Watched the first half of Africa last night.  I must of missed the discussion of the rule about whoever previously had the most votes at tribal council goes home after a tie, because I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they kep talking about it being such a big deal until Lxxxx?  (whiney blond girl whose name I've already forgotten) got voted off.  Was that the only time that twist was used? 

It was only used in Africa and the Outback seasons, but it got used twice during Outback. Mitchell and Keith were tied at a pre-merge vote and Mitchell had one previous vote against him, so he went out. Then at the merge, which the two tribes went into with even numbers at 5-5, all of Ogakor voted for Jeff Varner, knowing he had at least one previous vote against him (because Kimmi ran her mouth at an earlier challenge and tipped them off), and Colby deliberately drew all of Kucha's votes because he had zero previous votes.

 

15 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

The past vote count was used to break a tie up for the first three or four seasons. It was replaced by the rock draw at some point. I think the first time we saw that was on Marquesas. Vescepia's season... I am probably off on that.

No, you're right. The rock draw first appeared in Marquesas, and it took Paschal out at F4. At some point after that they made the F4 tiebreaker a firemaking challenge but kept the rock draw for ties before F4. I think firemaking first appeared in Cook Islands, but I might be wrong. I remember that one in particular though because Becky and Sundra were so inept that it went on for hours and finally necessitated Jeff giving them each a box of matches.

Edited March 20, 2018 by fishcakes

[marys1000]

Sounds like a lot of ties.  Do we have few ties in later seasons?  Due to? 

[ProfCrash]

I suspect that there were fewer ties once people realized that they could end up being booted by a rock draw. When the rule was that past votes counted against someone, you could walk into tribal knowing that you would be safe because the person with the most total votes went home with a tie. Once that is altered to if there is a tie and the tie is not broken in the next vote, all the people who did not receive votes will draw rocks, you put yourself at risk by voting for a tie. Since the risk shifts to the people voting, there is less incentive for there to be a tie.

I suspect that all returnee seasons will have the rule that was used last returnee season. Ties lead to a rock draw immediately, no revote.

I am not sure why Production doesn't like ties, I think they are drama filled, but there seems to be a movement to prevent ties.

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, marys1000 said:

Watched the first half of Africa last night.  I must of missed the discussion of the rule about whoever previously had the most votes at tribal council goes home after a tie, because I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they kep talking about it being such a big deal until Lxxxx?  (whiney blond girl whose name I've already forgotten) got voted off.  Was that the only time that twist was used?  I thought it was interesting, like a way to pad the deck against someone for later elimination.  Players have gotten more savvy with every season, I wonder how that twist would be used now.  It would require lots of interesting thought and strategizing.  

A brief history of Survivor tiebreakers:

1. In Season 1 (Borneo), the TC vote tiebreaker rules called for an immediate revote; if the tie persisted, then the tied contestants would compete in a challenge (fire making or something similar), with the loser evicted.  It was never fully invoked, however; the one tie vote (between Richard Hatch and Susan Hawk) was broken upon revote, with Kelly Wiglesworth (“The Rat”) flipping her vote and Susan being eliminated.
2. The “previous votes” tiebreaker model was the guiding rule through Seasons 2 (Australia) and 3 (Africa), and was three-phase: (a) a tie vote immediately went to a revote, (b) a tied revote went to a cumulative total of all TC votes previously cast against the two (not counting revotes), with the higher cumulative eliminated, and (c ) a cumulative vote tie went to a quiz tiebreaker, with the loser eliminated.  It was invoked twice in Season 2 (Mitchell Olsen and Jeff Varner evictions) and twice in Season 3 (Carl Bilancione and Lindsey Richter).  Carl’s elimination went all the way to a nature trivia quiz; it was the Tribe’s first visit to TC, and neither tied vote-getter (Carl nor Lindsey) had any previous TC votes to count.  Interestingly, it was the votes Lindsey garnered at this TC which determined her elimination at a later tiebreaker.
3. Season 4 (Marquesas) was the first to introduce immunity for TC tied-vote-getters.  Its tiebreaker model dictated a tied TC vote went immediately to discussion between voters (minus the tied two) to see if unanimous consensus could be achieved for elimination of one of the two vote-getters; failing that, a rock draw proceeded for all contestants not receiving a vote or having individual immunity.  This was the model which eliminated Paschal English at F4, despite his never having drawn a single vote at any TC; the vote was tied between two others, the deadlock could not be broken, Paschal and the two vote-getters were the only ones to draw rocks, and Paschal drew the purple rock.  Subsequent analysis indicated the Marquesas model could not fairly break a tie at F4.
4. Season 5 (Thailand) kept the same tiebreaker model, but with a revote re-incorporated after the initial vote.
5. This model proceeded without modification until Season 12 (Panama), when the change was made for ties from F4 on to be decided via firemaking challenges.
6. With the exception of a one-season elimination of the revote step (Season 34 - Game Changers), this is the model currently in place.

[Lantern7]

Funny115: Mike scares the heck out of Sierra. Also, a sweet "Fuck You Brad Culpepper" title.

[LadyChatts]

That was kind of a funny moment.  And I don't usually use funny and that season in the same sentence very often.

[ljenkins782]

10 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

That was kind of a funny moment.  And I don't usually use funny and that season in the same sentence very often.

I laughed so hard at that when it happened. And Mike just kept on talking as if he hadn't scared the life out of her. 

Quote

I suspect that there were fewer ties once people realized that they could end up being booted by a rock draw. When the rule was that past votes counted against someone, you could walk into tribal knowing that you would be safe because the person with the most total votes went home with a tie. Once that is altered to if there is a tie and the tie is not broken in the next vote, all the people who did not receive votes will draw rocks, you put yourself at risk by voting for a tie. Since the risk shifts to the people voting, there is less incentive for there to be a tie.

Yes, the rock draw is often used as a tool for flipping votes of people who aren't in danger at that TC. Why take a chance of going home when no one was planning to vote for you? I know I'd be super pissed if that was how my game ended. 

[Nashville]

15 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Funny115: Mike scares the heck out of Sierra. Also, a sweet "Fuck You Brad Culpepper" title.

 

13 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

That was kind of a funny moment.  And I don't usually use funny and that season in the same sentence very often.

In living color - at the 26:16 mark:

[LadyChatts]

Hee, I forgot that was so short, but still funny.  Mike really did pop out of nowhere.

Quote

I laughed so hard at that when it happened. And Mike just kept on talking as if he hadn't scared the life out of her. 

That and Carolyn seemed completely unfazed.

[SVNBob]

10 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

That and Carolyn seemed completely unfazed.

Well she could and did see him coming, so she wasn't surprised like Sierra was.

[ljenkins782]

On 3/23/2018 at 3:06 PM, LadyChatts said:

Hee, I forgot that was so short, but still funny.  Mike really did pop out of nowhere.

Ugh, even on mute, watching Dan Foley is painful. So dramatic and so utterly wrong yet thinks he knows it all. It tickles me to no end that Mike won after Dan spent the back half of the season bitching endlessly about him.  

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Ugh, even on mute, watching Dan Foley is painful. So dramatic and so utterly wrong yet thinks he knows it all. It tickles me to no end that Mike won after Dan spent the back half of the season bitching endlessly about him.  

My favorite was after Dan got voted out, and then shook his head and looked pained when Mike kept showing up at TC with immunity wins.

[marys1000]

Just finished Season 3 Africa for the firs time.  It was ort of a broken slow watch so I've already forgotten most of the first half.  An alliance numbers game so a bit boring.  A likeable cast other than Kelly first member of the jury who just seemed really unpleasant and Frank being irritating.  Tribal was the most interesting part other than the setting.  With the brunette girl and Brandan switching their votesfrom Ethan unexpectedly for a last minute unexpected Win for Kim Oyster. But I also liked the questions/talk at the tribal and the less formal relaxed nature.  Highlights the tribals now which seem very unsatisfying somehow for the last few seasons at least.  Loved the older cast.  

So that was Ethan and that was Lex, they used to get mentioned an awful lot and I wasn't sure why.  Still not sort of.  

Loved the setting, wow.  

Edited April 2, 2018 by marys1000

[Lantern7]

And I’m still certain Tom diddles his goats. Yeah, he’s funny, but he wore out his welcome in S8.

[marys1000]

So there were 3 repeat players from this cast?  Ah googled all 3 were on the same episode - All Stars.  Surprised it was Ethan then Lex and last! Tom, 5th member of the jury. 

One of the interesting things about that tribal vote was that you (1) saw how Kim had kept her opinions about Tom to herself through the game, he seemed shocked and really pissed off when she gave her honest, even o somewhat mild,  characterization of him and that honest calling out got her those two votes switched from Ethan to her and won her the game.  So yea, how often does "trashing" a member of the jury (it wasn't really trashing) get you two votes you weren't going to get before?  Especialy when it was someone sort of popular?  

I'd like to watch all the earlier seasons in order but have to get CBS all access apparently:( 

Edited April 2, 2018 by marys1000

[peachmangosteen]

I'm so confused lol. Ethan won. 

[marys1000]

He did?  Did I fall asleep at the last second?  According to google Ethan won.  Wow, what happened to me?    Going to have to rewatch the last minute.  

I remember seeing Brandon and the brunette switch their vote and then.....guess I was sleepy and thought I saw Kim win.  LOL!  Sorry

Ok, well, it was interesting to see 2 votes switch on that trashing of a jury member even though it didn't get her the win.  IT WAS CLOSE!   haha

Thanks for the correction, I would have been confusing people in the future I'm sure

Edited April 2, 2018 by marys1000

[peachmangosteen]

I don't remember the specifics of the vote, but your talk of this vote switching is kinda ringing a bell. I wanna rewatch the FTCs of every season now.

Edited April 2, 2018 by peachmangosteen

[303420]

I'm just pleased as punch to see that Kelly Goldsmith turned you off, @marys1000. I couldn't stand her, but she seemed to be the darling of message boards back then. It's nice to have company.

[LadyChatts]

Aw, I liked Kelly!  And will forever hate Lex and his stupid gut instinct (which I don't think has ever proved him right).  Not sure if you know this @marys1000 but I believe there's a reason Tom and Lex made it onto All-Stars.  In the final 4 immunity challenge (fallen comrades), there was a question about which of the women had no piercings.  Kim was given a point as the only one having the right answer, but Lex answered someone else who also had no piercings but mistakenly was not given a point.  Kim ended up winning that IC, which definitely affected the end result of the game.  Had Lex won, it's unlikely Tom would have gotten voted off, or at least it could have been a tie vote.  So I'll always believe that they were pretty much given the spot on AS to make up for that mistake.  I heard they also got more money than 3rd and 4th place got as well?

I loved Africa.  I know it's not a popular season with many, and I understand that, but it's one of my top 10 favorites.  Loved the locations, and thought the cast was entertaining.  I liked the younger Samburu alliance, so of course the first ever tribe swap will forever be a sore spot for me since it cost Silas and Lindsey, who otherwise would have likely made the merge.  I could actually have done without Lindsey, but I liked Silas.  It was funny how they tried to make the FTC vote reveal look like it was actually being read in Africa and not at a sound stage in LA.  I believed it at the time until the audience started cheering!

Edited April 2, 2018 by LadyChatts

[marys1000]

I have a terrible memory.  I can't remember when I started watching Survivor regularly.  I'm pretty sure I saw the first season but when I went back and watched it,it was like I'd never seen it before.  I know I'd never watched Africa.  A few years ago I watched Australia for the frst time and I barely remember it:(  After that not sure, some yes probably.  I do remember a tiny bit of All Stars but not Lex or Tommy.  I mostly remember BR and Amber winning the car?and they had a relationship and thinking BR should have won and he gave it to Amber. I think that might be when I started watching more regularly.  I know I watched China.   I remember  Coach because I love him in a good show entertainment kind of way and he is sort of amazing actually.  I remember bits that were crazy (Cirie, are these leaves?LOL) or made me mad.  The few contestents that I really hated (Jane)

Having (re)watched S1, Africa and  Australia I think I prefer the earlier seasons. Certainly Africa for the setting alone.  They would probably all number in my top picks but not for game play.    I like the more relaxed pace (fewer contestants)  more personal less overly done huge challenges, more real contestants.  They do seem a little light on strategy.  In that sense HII's do give players the guts and motivation to make a big play, step out of an alliance.  But I'd give that up for better the better contestants and settings.

 

Kelly was constantly complaining about everyone in secret scenes in a mean intense way.  She totally lost me when she said Frank need a medication to cure his being an introvert.  Then she was the bitter juror with her 1 to 1000 number pick because neither one of you went out of your way to get to know me.  I think she wanted Ethan to respond to flirting or something maybe, woman scorned is what her jury speech sounded like.  

Edited April 2, 2018 by marys1000

[fishcakes]

5 hours ago, marys1000 said:

I remember seeing Brandon and the brunette switch their vote and then.....guess I was sleepy and thought I saw Kim win. 

Brandon switched his vote from Ethan to Kim Johnson but not because of anything Kim said. Brandon's jury question was something like, "who are the two people on the jury who wouldn't deserve to make F2" and Ethan said, "well, YOU," which caused Brandon to vote for Kim and, while doing so, basically call Ethan a dumb shit who just threw away a sure vote. The only other vote for Kim J. was from Kim Powers and I don't think that was a switch; I think she always intended to vote for Kim, but it's been a while since I watched so I could be wrong about that. In any case, in interviews after the finale, Kim Johnson knew she had no chance of beating either Lex or Ethan, so she voted Lex out at F3 because she said she'd rather Ethan get the million than Lex.

4 hours ago, 303420 said:

I'm just pleased as punch to see that Kelly Goldsmith turned you off, @marys1000. I couldn't stand her, but she seemed to be the darling of message boards back then. It's nice to have company.

I didn't dislike her, but I don't really get her popularity on the boards either.

Edited April 2, 2018 by fishcakes

[marys1000]

If Kim Powers was the young brunette I'm pretty sure she said she switched her vote because she liked Kims answers and it was pretty amazing a 56 year old woman got that far.  I think she was originally an Ethan vote.  

Brandon made some advance comments to his questions, about not voting for someone who treated him poorly and then Ethan said his thing but when voting Brandan did harp on Ethan's answer but something he said also gave me the impression that he liked something Kim said - I think it was somethng to do with Tommy.  She called out Tommy twice in answers, not learning anything from him and his not wanting a woman to win.  Maybe I spun it wrong in my head but I got the impression that he didn't like Kim but her calling out Tommy, who probably wasn't too keen on gays either, got him to switch.  But I could be wrong.   Didn't she get a third vote too?  I must have been out of it and need to rewatch.  I remember thinking that if Kelly's number thing had gone the other way it would have been a tie.  But were there only 7 jurors?  

Oh man, just ignore anything I've said!  (Except that Kelly was awful IMO)

[ljenkins782]

49 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

Brandon switched his vote from Ethan to Kim Johnson but not because of anything Kim said. Brandon's jury question was something like, "who are the two people on the jury who wouldn't deserve to make F2" and Ethan said, "well, YOU," which caused Brandon to vote for Kim and, while doing so, basically call Ethan a dumb shit who just threw away a sure vote. The only other vote for Kim J. was from Kim Powers and I don't think that was a switch; I think she always intended to vote for Kim, but it's been a while since I watched so I could be wrong about that. In any case, in interviews after the finale, Kim Johnson knew she had no chance of beating either Lex or Ethan, so she voted Lex out at F3 because she said she'd rather Ethan get the million than Lex.

 

Quote

If Kim Powers was the young brunette I'm pretty sure she said she switched her vote because she liked Kims answers and it was pretty amazing a 56 year old woman got that far.  I think she was originally an Ethan vote.  

This is not a season I've ever cared to rewatch all that much, so I don't remember the FTC, but Ethan's answer to Brandon is kind of hilarious (if a dangerous move). 

For some reason, I DO remember the exchange between Kim Powers and Kim Johnson, which basically consisted of KimJ blatantly kissing KimP's ass by saying that her ending her engagement was incredibly brave or something like that. A little transparent, IMO, but I can totally see why KimP would have liked that. I'm sure dumping a fiancé is not the easiest thing to do or explain to anyone in your real life, so getting validation, even if it's coming from someone who's trying to win a million dollars, probably feels good. 

 

Quote

Aw, I liked Kelly!  And will forever hate Lex and his stupid gut instinct (which I don't think has ever proved him wrong).  Not sure if you know this @MARYS1000 but I believe there's a reason Tom and Lex made it onto All-Stars.  In the final 4 immunity challenge (fallen comrades), there was a question about which of the women had no piercings.  Kim was given a point as the only one having the right answer, but Lex answered someone else who also had no piercings but mistakenly was not given a point.  Kim ended up winning that IC, which definitely affected the end result of the game.  Had Lex won, it's unlikely Tom would have gotten voted off, or at least it could have been a tie vote.  So I'll always believe that they were pretty much given the spot on AS to make up for that mistake.  I heard they also got more money than 3rd and 4th place got as well?

I remember that story too. That actually really sucks that that happened, even though I can't stand Lex. Getting more money and an invite to return doesn't change the fact that they could possibly have won the million bucks and title in the first go around. Survivor in those days was still one of the hottest shows around, being the winner of one of those early seasons was a huge deal. 

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, marys1000 said:

I have a terrible memory.  I can't remember when I started watching Survivor regularly.  I'm pretty sure I saw the first season but when I went back and watched it,it was like I'd never seen it before.  I know I'd never watched Africa.  A few years ago I watched Australia for the frst time and I barely remember it:(  After that not sure, some yes probably.  I do remember a tiny bit of All Stars but not Lex or Tommy.  I mostly remember BR and Amber winning the car?and they had a relationship and thinking BR should have won and he gave it to Amber. I think that might be when I started watching more regularly.  I know I watched China.   I remember  Coach because I love him in a good show entertainment kind of way and he is sort of amazing actually.  I remember bits that were crazy (Cirie, are these leaves?LOL) or made me mad.  The few contestents that I really hated (Jane)

Having (re)watched S1, Africa and  Australia I think I prefer the earlier seasons. Certainly Africa for the setting alone.  They would probably all number in my top picks but not for game play.    I like the more relaxed pace (fewer contestants)  more personal less overly done huge challenges, more real contestants.  They do seem a little light on strategy.  In that sense HII's do give players the guts and motivation to make a big play, step out of an alliance.  But I'd give that up for better the better contestants and settings.

 

Kelly was constantly complaining about everyone in secret scenes in a mean intense way.  She totally lost me when she said Frank need a medication to cure his being an introvert.  Then she was the bitter juror with her 1 to 1000 number pick because neither one of you went out of your way to get to know me.  I think she wanted Ethan to respond to flirting or something maybe, woman scorned is what her jury speech sounded like.  

When I've re-watched older seasons, it sometimes feels like I've never seen them before.  I notice different things, or purposely try to look for edits.  I was blown away watching Thailand and the aftermath of Ted/Ghandia, thinking the show would be going into overdrive trying to defend itself, and the contestants who defended Ted would probably be deleting their SM profiles and going into hiding until the finale.  One thing I notice is the older seasons seem to drag, because there's so much footage of camp life, and the challenge scenes also seems less hectic.  I do wish they could find a happy medium between the format of yesteryear and the format of today.  Older seasons never went right into a challenge or whatever twist was being thrown at them.  I liked, too, that we really got to know the contestants better.

Africa and Gabon were my favorites for setting alone.  I enjoyed Amazon and Guatemala for similar reasons, being landlocked locations and providing a different atmosphere.  Gabon I think I liked a little better than the original Africa season for setting, mainly because of the amazing wildlife shots, and it wasn't strictly desert.  Also, this may be unpopular, but I'd love for them to go back to seasons with 16 players.  I'm fine with 20 for returning player seasons, but newbie seasons I'd love 16 only.

[LanceM]

Kelly Goldsmith has definitely done very well for herself since being on Survivor. Now works an associate professor of marketing at Vanderbilt University. 

https://business.vanderbilt.edu/bio/kelly-goldsmith/

[LadyChatts]

Didn't Kelly pass up a job opportunity to be on HvsV, then got passed over?  I know she was in consideration for that season, and was also an alternate for the first AS.  I'd still love to see her return, but I'm doubtful that will happen.

[KimberStormer]

Seen on Courtney Yates's Instagram: Boston Rob took her to Easter services at church which I think is completely adorable.

[marys1000]

10 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I love both those casts but disliked both locales, from a humane perspective re. the players.  The water situation in Africa was bullshit, or I suppose elephant shit, to  be exact.  And in both there was no body of water nearby, so the players just got dirtier and dirtier as the seasons wore on.  I want to enjoy the show without being distracted by filthy attire and bodies and concerned about dehydration issues. 

I prefer the later seasons where people are not covered in bug bites and open sores, swollen tongued, wrinkled and frozen from storms and zombies from lack of food, sleep, shelter and water.   

I think that's why they usually get coffee out there now.  People with the energy to sit up make better tv.  

The lack of water didn't last that long, at least for the one tribe that got that big silver thing full of water after which it didn't seem to be a problem.  So then the losing tribe was sort of screwed till the merge.  I agreee production shouldn't ever stint on drinking water at a minimum.  

There was a challenge that clearly showed some sort of river nearby.  Not sure if it had gators in it or they were told not to use it but I wondered why they didn't go there.   Kim cleaned herself in their tiny stream every day despite the elephant shit as Tommy had a long commentary on clearly thinking Kim was stupid.  They had the one big dump the talked about, I'm assuming they shoveled it out of there after?  I would have.  

Some of the buggier seasons bothered me more than dirty people.  Agree its no fun watching someone covered in bites that have turned into open ragged sores.  Personally I'd rather be dirty than tormented by bugs.  

I loved the wildlife.  I think it was interesting too that in Africa all the strategizing and talking had to happen within that little circle.  So you had to be careful to have conversations with everyone etc. watch your voice.  

[ProfCrash]

19 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

In the final 4 immunity challenge (fallen comrades), there was a question about which of the women had no piercings.  Kim was given a point as the only one having the right answer, but Lex answered someone else who also had no piercings but mistakenly was not given a point.  Kim ended up winning that IC, which definitely affected the end result of the game.  Had Lex won, it's unlikely Tom would have gotten voted off, or at least it could have been a tie vote.  So I'll always believe that they were pretty much given the spot on AS to make up for that mistake.  I heard they also got more money than 3rd and 4th place got as well?

All three ended up getting second place money since there was no way to know how the game would have played out.

[kikaha]

I bet they would take Kim in a heartbeat.  Same with Parv.  (Though I doubt either plays again.)  Natalie A. was scheduled to take part in season 34 but had to back out at the last second.

So I think there's three more female winners Survivor would welcome with open arms.   

Would Sophie play again?  She's a new MD now, so seems unlikely to me.  I'd very much like to see Denise again.  Also Natalie White, to find out how she does in a second season. 

Among men winners, still hope Earl, Yul, Jeremy and Mike come back.  Somewhat meh about Ben and Adam.  No need to see Tyson or Cochran, though I thought they played quite well in their winning seasons.  Same with Tony. 

[LadyChatts]

Danni Boatwright was on the short list for S34 as well.  Not sure if she got cut or ended up not being able to do it.

Of the female winners, we have: Tina, Vecepia, Jenna, Sandra (two time queen), Amber, Danni, Parvati, Natalie White, Sophie, Kim, Denise, Natalie Anderson, Michele, and Sarah. 

Tina, Jenna, Sandra, and Parvati have all played at least once after their respective wins (not counting Amber here since she won AS).  Danni, Sophie, and Natalie A. were on the short list for S34, along with Sandra who made it on (and Natalie did have to back out, which is how Sierra got on).  Michele and Vee have expressed interest in the past about coming back, though that ship likely sailed long ago for Vee.  Probst may let the outcome of KR burn at his very soul, but I could almost see Probst wanting Michele to come back.  Either to gloat about he was right that she's a terrible winner or gloat that she miraculously changed his mind.  Also, I don't know if he could override bringing her back, even if he didn't want to. 

Tina has said she'd come back again.  The only winners I doubt we'd see would be Amber and Natalie White, who went off the grid in terms of post Survivor visibility.  We don't know what the outcome of S36 or the next few Survivor seasons will be, so we may get some more female winners to add to the list.  If S40 were to be a combo of winners vs jurors/pre jurors or something along those lines, I think they could get enough female winners back.  There might be something more tempting with playing on an all winners tribe or an all winners season that might bring some winners out of their self imposed retirement.  

Edited April 6, 2018 by LadyChatts

[ProfCrash]

I can't see Tina coming back. She did fine the last time she played but her age is going to make being able to physically compete more and more challenging.

I can see Probst bringing back Natalie White and Michele because he wants to see them lose but I don't see Natalie White returning. I would be pissed if I were her and had to listen to all the bitter jury, Russell deserved to win crap. I don't think that Production treated her well, I think her edit was crap and that she did far more then we saw. Vee is another winner I would like to see back but I doubt Probst would bring her back because he thought she was boring.

I don't remember Danni or Sophie so I can't say that I care if they return or not.

I would love to see Denise and Kim back but I doubt that we would see them play again.

[SVNBob]

I guess this is the most appropriate thread for this...

I've just been involved in a minor debate on Reddit in regards to the most recent episode (S36:E08).  A question was put out as to whether there had been another occasion in which there were 4 idols in play.  Given the Idolgeddon of GC, I opined that it wasn't.

The ensuing debate revolved around one issue: does the Legacy Advantage, when active for use, count as an idol or not?  My stance is that since it is played for immunity in the same way as an HII, then it counts as one at only those particular TCs in which it is active (F13 and F6). 

What say you all here?  Is the Legacy an idol?

[LadyChatts]

I always considered it an idol as it has the same power, with restrictions.  But no different than super idols that have popped up over the seasons that had restrictions.  Heck, the current HII has the rule that it must be played before the vote is read.  

[fishcakes]

I say it counts as an idol. An idol can take any form: a necklace, a plaque, a fucking stick, so why not a piece of paper that says you have immunity?

[cherrypj]

If it gives you immunity, it might as well be an idol.

[TVFan1]

Since the Legacy Advantage gives you immunity, I say it counts as an idol.

[303420]

Definitely counts as an idol, but only at the TCs it's good for. So Dom had an idol at 13, but even if he hadn't used it, he wouldn't have had an idol at 12. 

Also, a hot dog is a sandwich and so is a taco.

[SVNBob]

From the most recent episode thread:

18 minutes ago, phlebas said:

That reminds me: pour one out in memory of our friend, The F**king Stick.

Farewell, F**king Stick. You not only gave your life to save Michael, but you also made Jason Siska look like such a gullible bonehead that we have been spared a return visit.

You did good, F**king Stick. I will remember you almost as fondly as Erik's former immunity necklace, currently chilling in Wendell's bag.

Salut.

Honestly, Jason didn't need much help from the F-ing Stick in that regard.  Dude was possibly the dimmest bulb in Survivor history until the Christy brothers in BvW2.

[Guest]

I liked Jason because he beat the insufferable Ozzie in a water challenge.

[cherrypj]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I liked Jason because he beat the insufferable Ozzie in a water challenge.

But then he started comparing himself to a god. Good one, Jason!

[SVNBob]

A discussion from the recent episode thread that really belongs here:

On 4/28/2018 at 7:10 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I agree.  I think this is also why we don’t see the ‘cut the rope’ reward challenges anymore.  Players are too savvy to reveal much and instead just all collude to get food to the most neglected, if I recall right from was it San Juan Del Sur we saw it last?   Yes, I think Jeff even stopped the challenge in frustration.   I think the auction is something else the players have learned to outsmart so it’s fallen by the wayside.  

 

23 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Right, Natalie Anderson destroyed the rope challenge just as Tony and Spencer destroyed the Survivor Auction.  She almost destroyed rewards in general that season by constantly volunteering to go to Exile and giving away her rewards.  Personally I hate it when post-merge reward challenges are group challenges instead of individual, and I wonder if Natalie is somewhat to blame for that being the seemingly overwhelming preference lately.

Totally agree they've blown it with Ghost Island and it ought to be a challenge, not a random chance (it should never be a rock draw to get there either.)  In the past when Exile Island had a hidden idol, it was always a thing you had to work for, not just a coin flip -- think of Yul triangulating, or Sugar wading through the muck.  Since Ghost Island is the theme of the whole season (and the strategy back at camp, frankly, is not that fascinating) I think we can spend a minute or two more over there with a challenge of some kind, instead of learning about everyone's tedious sob story (except for poor Purple Jenna who is apparently only interesting to the producers when it comes to lingering shots of her butt.)

 

23 hours ago, SVNBob said:

The reward giveaway was more a Jon thing.  He was definitely the ringleader of it during the Touchy Subjects challenge in question here.

And as I recall, Natalie only volunteered the once to go to Exile, and that was when two people would be there, so it was a strategy move to shore up an alliance.

 

And it was Mike that broke the auction...

 

7 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

I'll defer to you as il miglior fabbro when it comes to Survivor knowledge!  I have a distinct memory of Natalie constantly giving away rewards and driving Probst up the wall with this aggressive generosity, but it could easily be a faulty memory. 

But to my mind (not that I've ever seen the Worlds Apart auction) what Mike did was more like almost save it; the auction-ruining bullshit is people saving all their money for some advantage because min-maxing superfans on the Internet demand that this is the only possible move and if you don't do it you don't want to win, and it all coming down to a fucking rock draw with Tony winning the Tyler Perry Superidol because of course he would.  It was cool when Danni did it in Guatemala because she really really needed it and there was no way for her or anyone else to know that there was going to be an advantage (as far as I know?)  But once it's an economics textbook RATIONAL MOVE and everyone is saving their money then it's garbage.  Mike, if I understand it right, tried to betray everyone into spending their money so he could get the advantage, right?  That's at least something more interesting than nobody eating anything or taking a bath or having any fun but just being Utility Maximizing Rational Actors Responding to Incentives, and then pulling a rock literally to win the game.

The annoying thing is there's no reason for it -- they had advantages and disadvantages hidden in regular auction items for ages, and that was awesome.  Let them accidentally buy boiled bat soup and go straight to Exile without eating and be miserable with their useless money if they refuse to play.

After checking the wiki, it turns out @KimberStormer is more right than I recalled.  Natalie did start the trend of giving rewards away in SJDS.  But she really only did it the once (other than being part of the Touch Subjects cluster-rigging).  I think that Kimber's also remembering another reward that Natalie won and shared with Jon and Jaclyn, but that was the usual "share the reward" double-edged sword, and not giveaway shenanigans.  I guess I remembered it as being more a Jon thing because he led the Cluster, and then gave away his next reward, which was the next reward.

As for the auction... Ok, technically Mike didn't break it.  Production broke it when they started putting advantages in the auction and having Peachy tell them so.  And the Tony/Spencer moment should have been what made them revise the rules.  But Mike was the focus of the shattering point.

The chain of events from the Worlds Apart auction, as best as I remember (and a little wiki/video assistance), goes like this.  Usual rules of no sharing food or funds, and $20 increments are in place.  Will had been banished from the auction (more on this below), and Mike, Dan, and Carolyn still had all their $500 seed money.  A letter from home comes up as the next item.  Superfan Shirin tells everyone that when this item has come up in past auctions, Peachy will usually allow everyone to pay the same price as the winning bidder and get their letter also.  Sierra bids the $20 minimum with no counter-bids, so she wins.  And Peachy does say that everyone else can get their letter too.  Carolyn and Dan want to get their letters, but they also want the advantage...or more importantly, for Mike to not have it.  If he doesn't buy his letter also, then he's going to win the advantage by default and $20.  Everyone "agrees" to buy the letter so that they're still on even footing come advantage time (Shirin probably having mentioned the Tony/Spencer rock draw before they even left for the auction, so they all knew that would happen).  But Mike positions himself as last in the line to the podium, behind Dan,  And while Dan takes the time to blather on about his "greatest love in the world" for his wife (attempting to build a "Survivor moment", not realizing the edit he's going to get), Mike hems and haws.  When Dan finally shuts up and heads back to the bench, Mike follows.  Peachy notices and asks if Mike got his letter.  Mike tries to play it off, but everyone sees he doesn't have the letter envelope in his hands.  That's the breaking point.  Everyone gets pissed at Mike.  Dan and Carolyn try to get refunds on their letters (which leads to an actual fix for the auction.  New spoken rule: "All Sales Final.")  Mike eventually acquiesces and gets his letter too, evening out the money again, and everyone calms down.  Then comes the advantage, 3 equal $480 bids, a 3-way rock draw, and Dan getting an extra vote (which Carolyn eventually nullified with a hidden idol, voting Dan out in the process.)  Thus ending the last Survivor Auction.

 

Thing is, there was already something in place in this very auction that would fix this.  Will's banishment.  Specifically, said banishment was a covered surprise item that he "won" that sent him back to camp immediately.  While there, he got the rest of the his item, a map to a secret food cache that "would last [him] until the end of the game".  Mechanics like that, which had been in play before, would have saved the auction, and may do so eventually.  Now, I can imagine TPTB saying to themselves at the time that since they had the planned banishment/food cache in this auction that they wouldn't want to do something too similar in the same auction.  But there are ways they can use things they've already done to repair the auction and bring it back.

Then again, the auction is kinda boring and time-consuming, so I'm not too upset that it's gone.

[MissEwa]

25 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

Thing is, there was already something in place in this very auction that would fix this.  Will's banishment.  Specifically, said banishment was a covered surprise item that he "won" that sent him back to camp immediately.  While there, he got the rest of the his item, a map to a secret food cache that "would last [him] until the end of the game".  Mechanics like that, which had been in play before, would have saved the auction, and may do so eventually.  Now, I can imagine TPTB saying to themselves at the time that since they had the planned banishment/food cache in this auction that they wouldn't want to do something too similar in the same auction.  But there are ways they can use things they've already done to repair the auction and bring it back.

Then again, the auction is kinda boring and time-consuming, so I'm not too upset that it's gone.

Yep. You could fix the auction. It might take a couple of seasons, but you have one with no advantage, where it just ends and tough luck to anyone who didn't buy anything. Or you make the advantage a covered surprise item that goes up second that someone buys for $40. Or you hide it in a plate of food. Or you make it a parchment that turns out to be a disadvantage instead. The problem wasn't the auction, it's that it got too predictable. 

[ProfCrash]

I would say make the advantage a hidden item and the first or second item. Get out of the way right off the bat. Someone will buy it for cheap, everyone will be shocked, and then they will bid on other things. Then fuck with them by tossing in an individual immunity idol that is covered towards the end and watch their heads explode.

[Special K]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I would say make the advantage a hidden item and the first or second item. Get out of the way right off the bat. Someone will buy it for cheap, everyone will be shocked, and then they will bid on other things. Then fuck with them by tossing in an individual immunity idol that is covered towards the end and watch their heads explode.

Agree.  The key is to mix it up from season to season.  It was the predictability (and announcing what's going to be "on sale") that broke it.

[MissEwa]

That's a great breakdown. I know in the early days it was every 3 days like clock work. I'm not sure when it changed. Perhaps when they went from the normal 16 to 18 and then to 20 cast. By the time they get to Day 35 I think the Survivor players and production are over it and want to get it in the can. Oddly enough, I always notice the day count but I don't know if I've ever realized towards the end it was that rush or if it's even presented that way.

In a 39-day season, with 16 players can get to three players on Day 38 with TCs every three days and then one on day 38 (I think?). But we haven't had a 16-player season in forever - and I think that's partly why? A medevac or two and suddenly you don't have enough people left. 

So they've made 18/20 player seasons the standard, and for a while it worked because there seemed to be a run of seasons with at least one quit/medevac. But that's eased off recently so there are too many players at the end and need to do a bunch of back-to-back TCs. It's one of those rare cases where I'm willing to see that the producers are in a tight spot, not of their own making. 

I think the reason for bunching them at the end is simpler though - the less players there are, the less is going on. When you're down to the last 4 or so there's just not that much strategy to discuss (especially now), if you're getting on each others nerves (which you are, almost certainly) there's no-one else to go talk to, everyone's tired so conserving energy so no fun adventures, idols are done so no idol hunts. From a production point of view there's not that much interesting stuff to film, it's harder to craft a story because there aren't enough thread to tie together, and it's usually just not that interesting to watch. Outback went for 42 days and they had 3 days (and a whole episode) with just the F3 and it felt like the longest three days in the history of television. 

That said, I feel like a few of the final episodes recently have started with too many players, and just ended up being (maybe)RC/IC/TC/(maybe)RC/IC/TC/IC/TC/FTC and nothing else, and that's boring too.