Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[peachmangosteen]

Who all has played four times?

[ljenkins782]

11 hours ago, Daisy said:

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2. Who is your favorite four-timer? Mine is Cirie, and I would put her and Ozzy at the top. I know, Rob made it to Day 39 twice, but he missed the jury the other two times. Had Rupert not tossed himself under the bus in Blood Vs. Water, he would've been a contender.

Cirie.
Ozzy... I don't know. I loved Ozzy (Cook Islands) but i hated him in Micronesia and in South Pacific. but i liked him here. 

But I can't tell a lie. i've always liked Rob. so it would be he + Cirie for me. 

Same, I've always liked Rob in Survivor (Amazing Race, not as much). And I feel like Cirie got screwed in Micronesia, the oddness of the numbers at the end suggest that it was intended to be an F3, but the injuries and withdrawals changed the plan. I definitely think she got screwed here, but now that a million idols and advantages are part of the game, it was just a matter of luck. 

Rupert is one that I wish had not played even twice, much less 4 times. I actually liked him in Pearl Islands, but that went downhill with All Stars and just kept nosediving with each subsequent appearance. 

Same with Ozzy, liked him in Cook Islands but less in later seasons. He was kind of wallpaper for me this season, but his jury performance last night pushed me back into dislike. 

[NutMeg]

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The record-holders for most immunity wins in a season: Colby, Tom Westman, Terry, Ozzy (Cook Islands), Mike Holloway and Brad Friggin' Culpepper.

That's very interesting, because they all had such different styles (and also faced different challenges). What blowed me away with Ozzy his first season was how effortless each challenge seemed to be to him, and how elegantly he tackled them. Terry, for me, was very different: he won challenges, but there was never any of Ozzy's gracefulness, he was efficient but they're was no thrill in seeing him win (I mean, no wow factor in how he did it). I compare these two because it seems to me that they had to go through rather similar challenges and clearly, one was an artist there, the other one just a competent executant.

Tom had to demonstrate a different skill set, more strength-based, and I'd put him in Ozzy category in that it seemed natural to him and he did it elegantly. In contrast, Mike Halloway seemed to have a hard time and to push himself to his limits. More power to him, but aesthetically less pleasant.

Brad is somewhere in between. Not the most elegant, but nevertheless made it seem easy. A notch below Tom and Ozzy, but above Mike and definitely above Terry.

And because this post is only about challenges and elegance or lack thereof in performing them, I'd like to add the beautiful and very unique way Parvati tackled the pole Challenge in HvV, that visual may be my favourite ever. It seemed like such an impossible feat, but there she was, with just one foot and one hand on the pole, like the rest of her body was resting on air, and looking like she coud stay in there for days. There was also a dive by Aras, Danielle and Courtney in RI that was just a thing of beauty, the way they were all moving in unison under water.     

[azshadowwalker]

On 5/24/2017 at 10:20 PM, Lantern7 said:

 

2. Who is your favorite four-timer? Mine is Cirie, and I would put her and Ozzy at the top. I know, Rob made it to Day 39 twice, but he missed the jury the other two times. Had Rupert not tossed himself under the bus in Blood Vs. Water, he would've been a contender.

Cirie, hands down. Since Rupert was technically a 4-timer, he is second. Ozzy is next. Fuck Rob.

[Lantern7]

Three writers rank Survivor winners in the middle of Game Changers. Can't agree with all of the results. They focused on performances in the champs' respective seasons, as opposed to legacies. Seriously, would JT rank that high after he gave Russell a ticket to Day 39 in S20? Since Sandra's two wins are counted separately, she is not at the top. The highest-rated player is someone I can't agree with . . . partially because I cannot remember the person (having burnt out brain cells in earlier seasons), partially because a huge turning point came from an obnoxious little shit and the dumbasses that enabled him. But that's me. Oh, and Tom is at the top for me, even if Ian is still in therapy.

[KimberStormer]

That was not a huge turning point.  What changes if it didn't happen?  Was Bill some strategic powerhouse, or the challenge master who kept the men on top?  Would losing Monica one turn early change anything for anybody?

That move was not especially more idiotic than any thrown challenge and meant literally nothing for the game.  If the obnoxious little shit in question had gotten to Day 39 maybe he could have brought it up as some asinine resume point but a) he would have quit like the shitty baby he is anyway, b) nobody would even remember by then and c) if they did they would have been like "yeah that was completely fucking stupid Colton, we're giving the win to Leif"

[Lantern7]

Okay, maybe not that huge. Hang on . . . checking Wikipedia . . . confirming feelings . . .

From what I remember, the women had lost their third challenge out of four. I recognize that the traditional twist came afterward, and some of them might have gotten numbers on one tribe. But then fucking Colton got his briefs in a knot, he got the wussbags of Manono to do Tribal Council to oust Bill, and the tribes were even heading into the twist. In my mind (which I admit can come up with flawed reasoning), we might not have had the series ending with five women in the last days. Manono's decision to do TC may have unleashed a karmic hurricane that wiped them out as the women picked them off. On the other hand: Tarzan, Troyzan and Leif. Not a Murders' Row of strategic gameplay. I'm stunned Troy made it to the end of Game Changers.

I think I knew Earl was an alternate, but he never watched the show? Okay, that is impressive that he won. I feel that Yau Man would've gotten it had Dre kept his promise, but Earl lasting that long was amazing with that fact retroactively put in. Probst is probably butthurt by Fiji because damn near anybody could win. Also, no alpha dudes in the final phase.

[NutMeg]

8 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

That was not a huge turning point.  What changes if it didn't happen?  Was Bill some strategic powerhouse, or the challenge master who kept the men on top?  Would losing Monica one turn early change anything for anybody?

That move was not especially more idiotic than any thrown challenge and meant literally nothing for the game.  If the obnoxious little shit in question had gotten to Day 39 maybe he could have brought it up as some asinine resume point but a) he would have quit like the shitty baby he is anyway, b) nobody would even remember by then and c) if they did they would have been like "yeah that was completely fucking stupid Colton, we're giving the win to Leif"

Had a good laugh at your alternative c) scenario. Because really, all the men Kim had allied with after the merge, and a few of those that were left of the other tribe, were more than ready to bail on Colton. Which is probably as much a testament to their character (distancing themselves as much as possible from Colton) as to the pull Kim had. And I think that attraction worked because for a while she didn't know where the dice would end falling and she was genuinely considering an alternate alliance in case the first one she had in mind didn't work out. Never before or since have I seen a winning player who has been so good at considering all possible occurrences and found a way to profit from them all. Parvati comes close, but she's less of a plan-it-all-in-advance player and more one who goes with the flow and seizes any opportunity.         

[Lantern7]

Thinking about it, I would've ranked Bob above Fabio. I know, Bob lucked into his win, but at least he had an intelligent vibe. Had quitters been expelled from the jury, Fabio would have lost to some other guy whose name I don't care to look up. Probst probably likes him for his looks. He looks at Bob, he gets traumatic memories from high school chemistry class.

[MissEwa]

I was rooting for Fabio at the time, because a) the alternatives were worse and b) there were some theories/rumours/wishful thoughts floating around that the dumb surfer dude thing was an act, which would have been cool. Alas, they were not. He was a terrible winner in a terrible season. 

I agree with some but not all of that list - it is nice to see Kim get recognition since she played brilliantly. Yeah, the guys gave up immunity. Yeah, Colton quit. You could make an 'X wouldn't have won if thing-completely-out-of-X's-control hadn't happened' argument for any winner, if you wanted to. I don't get why her win gets asterisked so readily. 

[simplyme]

I didn't make it through the list. Once I saw that Adam was ranked higher than Sophie, I gave up. (Also, I hate page-by-page slideshows.) I'm not sure why the authors of that article considered Adam's FTC performance to be "strong" even disregarding the revelation of his mother's cancer. Adam won because no one wanted to lose to the neurotic girl with panic attacks or the self-righteous guy with no strategy, but he wasn't really ever running the game. Hell, most of the time Hannah ran him. Adam was a (very loud) mess much of the time. Sophie knew who she wanted to end up with, made sure to quietly get rid of the people she didn't while letting others think they were in charge, and let Coach and Albert make asses of themselves along the way. It wasn't flashy, but it was effective. I'm a bigger fan of effective than loud.

[Daisy]

Okay let's look at this list. 
33 - Bob, okay I can buy that. didn't really like him near the end either. Too pompous. Michele at 32, I can get that too. I think Amber at 31 is a lot lower than where I think I would put her. like having Fabio over Amber? Really? (They acknowledged the fact that Amber said she was 'lucky' to be there in the first place - but I think Tina said that a lot in her final 2 as well and I think being lucky is important. And you really can't say "I'm here because Lex was a frigging idiot." 

29 - Natalie... sure. 28, Vecepia (again, I think that's really low). Jenna at 27... hmmm. i guess. Aras at 26.. yah I can see that. Mike way too high at 25.  Ethan at 24... yah. okay, Sophie at 23 - brzt, no. Danni at 22... hmmm. no, too low. so is Chris at 21. (i'm sorry. someone who is able to lie as baldly as he did, and then turn around and continue to sweet talk and lie in the final tribal - deserves to be a lot higher than 21).  Adam at 20 - way too high. 

Tyson at 19... hmmm. Yul at 18... hmmm. I dont think Cochran should be 17. tina is at 16.. Heidik at 15. I think that's fairish. (I do wish he wasn't such a scuzz bucket because i think seeing him play in new survivor would be so interesting). Tom at 14.

Natalie/Earl tied at 12. (that's interesting). Denise at 11 - nope. Sandra 1.0 at 10 hmm. Rob at 9. JT is tied for 6th. I don;t know if I'd have him that high to be dead honest with you. Or Jeremy Collins (tied with him for 6th). Sandra 2.0 is Tied 6th too.. Hatch is 5, Tony at at 4 (what? what?)  Parv + Todd tied at 2, and Kim at 1.  

I'm just quickly going to try to re-work this, going by what I read and a touch of legacy (but not too much). 

For Me. My Top 3 would be Kim, Rob and Parv.. Bing bang Boom.  I think they all are the same type of player. Kim ran her game out of "love" like Everyone loved Kim, no one 'feared' her. Rob ran his game out of fear and Parv ran her game out of charm and seduction. Parv would be my #1, then Kim-Rob tied at 2.  4, Hatch (for 'creating' the game), Todd at 5, Sandra 2.0 at 6, Tony at 7 Tom at 8, Tina at 9 and Brian at 10.  

(Parv, Rob/Kim, Hatch, Todd, Sandra2.0, Tony, Tom, Tina Brian)

11 Earl, 12 Yul, 13 Sandra 1.0, 14, Chris, 15, Danni, 16 Natalie A, 17 Tyson, 18 Vee, 19, Amber, 20 Jenna, 21  Sophie 22 Ethan, 23 Jeremy, 24 Adam and everyone else shakes out. (and that's really on the top of my head and re-reading everything). I know people would argue that Jenna shouldn't be that high, I know on the RHAP countdown Rob says he has her way lower because she always wanted to quit. Yah but she didn't and I think she played relatively well - a lot better than I think Adam did (who did play a decent game) and Mike who was in the position he was in because he kept shooting himself in the foot. 

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

For Me. My Top 3 would be Kim, Rob and Parv.. Bing bang Boom.  I think they all are the same type of player. Kim ran her game out of "love" like Everyone loved Kim, no one 'feared' her. Rob ran his game out of fear and Parv ran her game out of charm and seduction. Parv would be my #1, then Kim-Rob tied at 2.  4, Hatch (for 'creating' the game), Todd at 5, Sandra 2.0 at 6, Tony at 7 Tom at 8, Tina at 9 and Brian at 10.  

(Parv, Rob/Kim, Hatch, Todd, Sandra2.0, Tony, Tom, Tina Brian)

11 Earl, 12 Yul, 13 Sandra 1.0, 14, Chris, 15, Danni, 16 Natalie A, 17 Tyson, 18 Vee, 19, Amber, 20 Jenna, 21  Sophie 22 Ethan, 23 Jeremy, 24 Adam and everyone else shakes out. (and that's really on the top of my head and re-reading everything). I know people would argue that Jenna shouldn't be that high, I know on the RHAP countdown Rob says he has her way lower because she always wanted to quit. Yah but she didn't and I think she played relatively well - a lot better than I think Adam did (who did play a decent game) and Mike who was in the position he was in because he kept shooting himself in the foot. 

Out of curiosity, why is Denise so low? She's not one of my top five but she didn't luck into it and she made the right move at the right time to win. 

[Daisy]

12 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

Out of curiosity, why is Denise so low? She's not one of my top five but she didn't luck into it and she made the right move at the right time to win. 

to be honest with you - because I really can't remember her game. (which is more me than her probably, while I am admittedly a Survivor-Pedia, it really much stops at 20 for insta-recal and everything is one big blob of Survivorgoo). Philippines is one of those seasons i have to do a rewatch on (I'm going to be doing one from 18 on one of these days because I always do 1 through 20 ;) - maybe that's why im so fresh LOL). 

 Honestly I think maybe from Ethan through Jeremy/Adam you can have her in there (I could even really have her tied with Ethan if I wanted to and I don't think it would bother me). I think more of what Denise's game was, was that she survived Survivor LOL I think she was the first person to go to every single tribal (not even Stephanie had that luxury)  and she did make the right move, but I don't know if she really had quote/unquote game (again, admitting, I don't really remember her game.).

[simplyme]

IMO two of the problems I have with their ranking system is that it seems to weigh too heavily 1) how much a person controlled the game and 2) winning challenges. I don't think either really gets you the game. That tends to be determined by a solid strategy based on recognition of one's standing in the tribe and good social game.

I mean, what about a person who knows they can't outright control the game but manages to subtly affect it and place themselves where they need to be to win?  Natalie White, for example, read her tribe well and knew exactly how she had to play to win: be the nonthreatening female with the great social game. She was responsible for getting Galu to vote Erik out, and he was her advocate at the end. But she ends up penalized in the rankings for not winning challenges and not being the obvious driver of the game. However, had she tried to take control early on, she would have been voted out, and later in the game it would have lost her votes. 

Also, I am seriously bored by the lack of anything on TV, so I have been overanalyzing Survivor. My apologies for the spate of recent long posts.

[enlightenedbum]

Todd played a garbage game and had to have his ass saved repeatedly by Amanda.  I actually consider him a less impressive winner than Bob or Fabio, because at least they didn't create terrible situations for themselves intentionally.  I know I say the jury cannot be wrong by definition, but the jury was wrong in China.  That whole cast was filled with absolute morons who were fooled by the most transparent suck up and braggart the game has ever seen.  In particular, I wish James were smarter, so Todd would be known for making one of the five dumbest plays ever.

[Lantern7]

I can't rank Rob so high. I just can't. He was on a season full of idiots. I wish the show was more statistics-friendly . . . there could be a formula that could factor in strength of competition, environment, gameplay, rewards won, rewards taken upon, etc. But it's probably best as a subjective matter For me, that's Tom Westman in second, behind Sandra. Her two wins would count as one for me. Once again: 78 days in the game, 77 with the two biggest assholes ever cast, and she did not murder either of them.

[KimberStormer]

Everyone has their own taste and therefore everyone's going to have their own favorite winners, eh.  Honestly I don't understand why Fabio is always ranked so low, when he played exactly like so many people are always saying people should play; he played a social game, stayed under the radar, won key immunities, played the jury like a concert pianist and owned FTC to the point that at least a couple of the votes for Chase were because Brenda and someone else thought he wasn't going to get a single vote and felt sorry for him.  If you're a Big Moves hater, a "you don't have to run the game to be good" type, a "the jury can't be wrong" anthropic principle purist, a "the social game is the game, full stop" fellow, a "challenge winners deserve it tho" Ozzy/Joe fan, or if you'd just like to see the one person on a season who isn't a complete asshole win the game, I don't see what problems you could possibly have with Fabio's game and win.  He did fine!  I'd rank him above many winners myself, indeed above some who people often rank as The Best Ever.

[Lantern7]

Funny115: The Keith & Wes entry. I take a little exception to Mario likening the "Blood vs. Water" seasons to The Amazing Race, especially with Natale & Nadiya competing in the second one. Big friggin' whoop. How many Survivor people was cast on TAR? I'm thinking six, and I might be short on that. And don't get me started on Big Brother. I do give props for the "Fuck You Brad Culpepper" image at the top.

[enlightenedbum]

I think there were only four Survivor -> TAR contestants: Rob, Amber, Jenna, Ethan.  Can't recall any others.  More Big Brother -> TAR, I think.  And the Andersons are the only TAR -> Survivor I think, though I think Parvati initially applied for TAR and got shunted off to Survivor.

[Lantern7]

Just checked: TAR25 had Keith & Whitney from Survivor: South Pacific.

[enlightenedbum]

Well, there's a very good reason I forgot those two.  Maybe the most boring people to be on either show.

[MissEwa]

4 hours ago, Daisy said:

to be honest with you - because I really can't remember her game. (which is more me than her probably, while I am admittedly a Survivor-Pedia, it really much stops at 20 for insta-recal and everything is one big blob of Survivorgoo). Philippines is one of those seasons i have to do a rewatch on (I'm going to be doing one from 18 on one of these days because I always do 1 through 20 ;) - maybe that's why im so fresh LOL). 

 Honestly I think maybe from Ethan through Jeremy/Adam you can have her in there (I could even really have her tied with Ethan if I wanted to and I don't think it would bother me). I think more of what Denise's game was, was that she survived Survivor LOL I think she was the first person to go to every single tribal (not even Stephanie had that luxury)  and she did make the right move, but I don't know if she really had quote/unquote game (again, admitting, I don't really remember her game.).

Thank you for your answer. I think maybe she suffers for the fact that she had a pretty low-key edit, especially for someone who was at literally every tribal council, but I think she played a great social game. And as much as I want to be mad at her for cutting Malcolm it was 10000% the right thing to do. 

3 hours ago, simplyme said:

Also, I am seriously bored by the lack of anything on TV, so I have been overanalyzing Survivor. My apologies for the spate of recent long posts.

Don't apologise! I'm a bit the same (what Peak TV?) and I like that these threads are still kicking along in the off-season.

[Daisy]

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I can't rank Rob so high. I just can't. He was on a season full of idiots. I wish the show was more statistics-friendly . . . there could be a formula that could factor in strength of competition, environment, gameplay, rewards won, rewards taken upon, etc. But it's probably best as a subjective matter For me, that's Tom Westman in second, behind Sandra. Her two wins would count as one for me. Once again: 78 days in the game, 77 with the two biggest assholes ever cast, and she did not murder either of them.

this is true. I remember why on RHAP they had them separate, so I think in my head i've always had it separate, though I thought the same thing. 78 days (at the time) - and she had a total of 2 votes against her period (and theoretically those 2 doesn't count because she idol'ed them out). Maybe she should be #1 on my list. Sort of like Borneo. no matter what you say about Borneo it always has to be #1 because it created the game we love.  Thus Sandra has to be #1 because she won twice. Period. Fullstop. 

To speak both sides of my mouth - I always thought that Amanda should have won China, it's one of those seasons where i got a big pout on because she had it. But the reason why she lost was she totally fell apart in Final Tribal. Now.  all things considered. maybe if she was stellar and then lost - i could see it - but Todd was rocked that final. But looking at my list yah I have him super high - which is weird because I usually don't. 

@simplyme - i can't tell a lie - I do give a big credence on how you do control the game (which is why I have Parv, Kim, Rob, Hatch) so high. I think if you can pretty much dictate a game from start to finish - and really not be a target at all  that's very impressive. on top of everything else. 

Though I will always play the card of - challenge wins shouldn't matter (ie: Sandra in 3 seasons has won all of 0) because you have to play what your strengths are. If you aren't a young physical person - the likihod of you winning (or being a "Bob) isn't going to happen. but. you have to outplay in other ways. 

I really have to wonder why some seasons get flat out ignored for repeats. 
Marquesas only had Kathy and Rob. 
Guatemala is batting zero (i honestly think this is the only season not to have a repeat cast member).  Every season but 11 has been represented. 
 

11 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

Thank you for your answer. I think maybe she suffers for the fact that she had a pretty low-key edit, especially for someone who was at literally every tribal council, but I think she played a great social game. And as much as I want to be mad at her for cutting Malcolm it was 10000% the right thing to do. 

Don't apologise! I'm a bit the same (what Peak TV?) and I like that these threads are still kicking along in the off-season.

you are totally welcome. 
and I agree. brilliant move for her. 

I wish Canada had access to Hulu. I only have my old VHS tapes and my DVDs of the show. 

[SVNBob]

12 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Guatemala is batting zero (i honestly think this is the only season not to have a repeat cast member).

Technically, Stephanie's appearance in HvV counts as someone from Guatemala returning.  But since she was a returnee in Guatemala to start, it is with an asterisk.

In the same manner, Malcolm and Andrea appearing on GC mark the only appearance of returnees from season 26 (FvF2...Cochran's win.)  Again, asterisks apply since they were already returnees for that season.

[kikaha]

I don't remember most of the early seasons too well, and some more recent seasons are a bit of blur (Bob's win e.g.). That said, here are a few of my personal rankings of Survivor winners and near-misses:

Wins that impressed me the most:

Jeremy

JT

Earl

Kim

Best performance ever: tie between Boston Rob (All Stars) and Parvati (HvV)

A few other great winning performances:

Denise

Natalie A.

Tom (I suspect it's no longer possible to win this way)

Best performances that didn't win (other than BR and Parv):

Kelley Wentworth

Cirie (Micronesia)

Malcolm (Philippines)

Bottom of the pile wins for my taste:

Natalie W.

Sophie

Sandra (HvV)

I still think Boston Rob and Parv are the two best Survivor players ever, with the most rounded games that can beat you socially, strategically, physically and back-handedly. 

[simplyme]

5 hours ago, Daisy said:

 

@simplyme - i can't tell a lie - I do give a big credence on how you do control the game (which is why I have Parv, Kim, Rob, Hatch) so high. I think if you can pretty much dictate a game from start to finish - and really not be a target at all  that's very impressive. on top of everything else. 

Oh, it is impressive. But my big gripe with "Did they control the game?" is that the ability to control the game depends on who is cast. Rob is very charismatic, very take charge, very strategic, good at challenges, good socially, and yet he couldn't control the game in HvV. He correctly identified the threats, but they out maneuvered him. So rather than looking at it as "Did they control the game?", I try to appreciate as much as possible the position each person was in and how they used it to their advantage. Because playing a good enough under the radar game to make it to the end and win can take a lot of skill, too, but it doesn't get as much glory.

It bothers me that Sophie gets dismissed so often. She always knew what she was doing. She won three individual immunities, including beating Ozzy to earn the last one so he could be voted out and stay out (it was a redemption island season). But IMO partially because so many people were unlikable that season and partially because she was just quiet and effective, she's underrated. Ranking Adam above her makes my eye twitch.

I thought Todd was a pretty good winner. He had his flaws (when he got paranoid and Amanda corralled him), but he had a great social game overall and he killed that FTC. Amanda played a great game and then turned into that Sadmanda caricature at FTC that she's pretty much been ever since where she's wishywashy, babbles about morals, cries, and clings to the alpha males. I want the old Amanda back. That Amanda would have kicked Todd's ass in FTC and taken home the million. I think there was a doppelganger switch the morning of day 39 or something. Maybe the real Amanda is trapped in some Chinese temple, muttering about biting apples.

I can't figure out what to think about Tony. I feel like most seasons, his tribe would have voted him off for being a paranoid, controlling, in-your-face nutball, but it worked for him. Or his idols and a cautious tribe did. So he's either just crazy or crazy like a fox, and darned if I know which.

[enlightenedbum]

I don't think Todd's FTC was that impressive, frankly.  Just that the cast was stupid and fell for his transparent bullshit.  He couldn't point to anything he actually did so he just talked like he theoretically did stuff but no one was smart enough to ask for any specific thing he did.  Because the answer was "hand a (theoretically) athletic dude two immunity idols for no reason" and nothing else, really.

[MissEwa]

I always forget about Sophie, @simplyme - she's another one who got a very low-key edit for a winner *and* she was on a terrible season, but you're right, she's under-rated. 

It's not a universal rule, but I do think that those winners edits that leave viewers kinda scratching their heads so often belong to women: Natalie W., Denise, Sophie, Michele... The first three were definitely overshadowed by big male personalities on their seasons, and Michele just by everyone. It doesn't happen every time - Natalie A., Kim and Sarah got much more traditional 'winners edits', so much as those exist - but I can't think of any male winners who got that same head-scratcher edit. 

[enlightenedbum]

I recall even Kim was basically invisible until the asshole quit.

[Daisy]

5 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

I don't think Todd's FTC was that impressive, frankly.  Just that the cast was stupid and fell for his transparent bullshit.  He couldn't point to anything he actually did so he just talked like he theoretically did stuff but no one was smart enough to ask for any specific thing he did.  Because the answer was "hand a (theoretically) athletic dude two immunity idols for no reason" and nothing else, really.

that bugged me. On TWOP most of us ripped that crap up. like "I chose someone weaker than me YAY, I worked with Amanda, YAY!" yah but what else did you do? . I might have to rethink my Todd ranking. (which means a China re-watch) because I think i have a lot of "evolution of strategy" in my head. so i might be thinking some of that. and I know Todd got a lot of credence for his FTC.. (but now i am wondering yah but Amanda didn't help matters). 

[Nalan]

19 hours ago, simplyme said:

I mean, what about a person who knows they can't outright control the game but manages to subtly affect it and place themselves where they need to be to win?  Natalie White, for example, read her tribe well and knew exactly how she had to play to win: be the nonthreatening female with the great social game. She was responsible for getting Galu to vote Erik out, and he was her advocate at the end. But she ends up penalized in the rankings for not winning challenges and not being the obvious driver of the game. However, had she tried to take control early on, she would have been voted out, and later in the game it would have lost her votes. 

Natalie is penalized because she simply isn't Russell.  That's it.  Plain and simple.

15 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

Well, there's a very good reason I forgot those two.  Maybe the most boring people to be on either show.

In fairness, I blame the editing for them being "boring."  Multiple people on South Pacific said that Keith and Whitney certainly had personalities and were fun to be around.  It was just that that season was, unfortunately, The Coach, Ozzy, Brandon, and Cochran Show, with a Side of Jim.  So pretty much every other castaway, including Sophie, the winner(!), got overshadowed in favor of the five big (very much male) characters of the season.  Keith and Whitney were, sadly, victims of that.  It was one reason I was glad that they made it to TAR25.  Their personalities got to come out more then.  That show doesn't hide their teams' personalities.

14 hours ago, MissEwa said:

Thank you for your answer. I think maybe she suffers for the fact that she had a pretty low-key edit, especially for someone who was at literally every tribal council, but I think she played a great social game. And as much as I want to be mad at her for cutting Malcolm it was 10000% the right thing to do. 

I would think that that would rank Denise higher, not lower.  The fact that she was the very first castaway to go to every one of them and still walk away unscathed puts her at least in the top fifteen winners, if she can't be considered among the top ten.  And if not surviving every Tribal Council, then at least the move that turned the game should put her in consideration -- her idea to blindside Pete, Abi, and Artis with the latter's vote-off at F9.

3 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

I recall even Kim was basically invisible until the asshole quit.

Kim was visible well before that.  When the swap happened, the focal point of the season shifted from Sabrina to Kim.  But she'd had a decent focus before then.  The swap was just when her true game really started.

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, Nalan said:

I would think that that would rank Denise higher, not lower.  The fact that she was the very first castaway to go to every one of them and still walk away unscathed puts her at least in the top fifteen winners, if she can't be considered among the top ten.  And if not surviving every Tribal Council, then at least the move that turned the game should put her in consideration -- her idea to blindside Pete, Abi, and Artis with the latter's vote-off 

To clarify: I'd rank Denise pretty high - top 10-15. She played a great game and if it wasn't going to be Malcolm I'm glad it was her. I am slightly gobsmacked that at 41 (at the time of winning) she's the oldest ever female winner though. 

[kikaha]

1 hour ago, MissEwa said:

To clarify: I'd rank Denise pretty high - top 10-15... I am slightly gobsmacked that at 41 (at the time of winning) she's the oldest ever female winner though. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe only one male winner has been older than that.  And he is widely considered one of the worst winners ever. 

Denise is easily top ten for me, and maybe in the upper half of that.  Even though she went to all those tribals, I don't recall that she was ever in danger of going home.  One of the most masterful social games in Survivor history. 

The fact that Malcolm could easily have won that season -- and would have been just as deserving as Denise -- is one reason I think so highly of Philippines. 

[enlightenedbum]

I like putting things in tiers to clarify things for myself, so I'd do something like (and I've ranked these within the tiers):

Two Time Winner

Sandra, in a class by herself

Dominant Games (Solo)

Kim, Brian, Rob

Dominant Games (With a Partner...They Didn't Necessarily Need)

Yul (Becky strategically, Ozzy physically), Earl (Yau-Man), Parvati (Cirie), Denise (Malcolm),

Dominant Games (With a Partner...They Probably Needed)

Amber (Rob), Tom (Ian), JT (Stephen)

Solid Wins (Pre-BIG MOVES)

Richard, Natalie White, Chris, Sophie, Vecepia, Tina, Danni, Jenna, Ethan

Solid Wins (BIG MOVES!)

John, Tony, Mike, Sarah

I Didn't Watch

Jeremy, Tyson, Michele, Natalie Anderson

Unimpressive Wins

Aras, Bob, Fabio, Adam, Todd

I think the BIG MOVES era is less impressive and would get their clocks cleaned by the more subtle players of earlier times.  And if you want to say Rob needed the partner of Probst/casting, I wouldn't agree necessarily but I'd understand the impulse.

Edited June 6, 2017 by enlightenedbum

[enlightenedbum]

Though if you're asking for best players ever, I actually jump Natalie White a few spots and insert a bunch of non-winners (Cirie and Cesternino first and foremost) ahead of everyone below Denise.  Natalie just couldn't play a proactive game with the crazy person she was playing against.

[KimberStormer]

53 minutes ago, enlightenedbum said:

I think the BIG MOVES era is less impressive and would get their clocks cleaned by the more subtle players of earlier times. 

How come?

Also dude did you not see Cambodia either??  I think you'd enjoy Jeremy's game a whole lot.  No BIG MOVES on his part, and really a truly masterful win.

[Nalan]

1 hour ago, enlightenedbum said:

I think the BIG MOVES era is less impressive and would get their clocks cleaned by the more subtle players of earlier times. 

I would agree on Cochran, Mike, and especially Tony, but Sarah?  I think she could adapt to the subtler eras.  Actually, given what a dominant game she played, I'm shocked she's not up with the dominant game winners.

[MissEwa]

4 hours ago, kikaha said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe only one male winner has been older than that.  And he is widely considered one of the worst winners ever. 

No you're right. That surprised me too - in my head the age range of Survivor winners was a lot bigger.

[azshadowwalker]

18 hours ago, kikaha said:

 

I still think Boston Rob and Parv are the two best Survivor players ever, with the most rounded games that can beat you socially, strategically, physically and back-handedly. 

How does Rob beat anyone socially? He didn't even make jury in Marquesas. He was hated by everyone but Amber, Rupert and Jenna Lewis in All Stars. HvV, bye! His great social game was hoodwinking a bunch of noobs in RI.

[Lantern7]

I can't rank Amber that high, either. She only got the one vote from Shii Ann. Rob got three votes, and the other three were against him. Technically, they were for Amber, but those voting that way would have traded that in for punching Rob in the face.

[Daisy]

15 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

I like putting things in tiers to clarify things for myself, so I'd do something like (and I've ranked these within the tiers):

Two Time Winner

Sandra, in a class by herself

Dominant Games (Solo)

Kim, Brian, Rob

Dominant Games (With a Partner...They Didn't Necessarily Need)

Yul (Becky strategically, Ozzy physically), Earl (Yau-Man), Parvati (Cirie), Denise (Malcolm),

Dominant Games (With a Partner...They Probably Needed)

Amber (Rob), Tom (Ian), JT (Stephen)

Solid Wins (Pre-BIG MOVES)

Richard, Natalie White, Chris, Sophie, Vecepia, Tina, Danni, Jenna, Ethan

Solid Wins (BIG MOVES!)

John, Tony, Mike, Sarah

I Didn't Watch

Jeremy, Tyson, Michele, Natalie Anderson

Unimpressive Wins

Aras, Bob, Fabio, Adam, Todd

I think the BIG MOVES era is less impressive and would get their clocks cleaned by the more subtle players of earlier times.  And if you want to say Rob needed the partner of Probst/casting, I wouldn't agree necessarily but I'd understand the impulse.

Actually. I like this. I really do. 

[Lantern7]

Funny115: Kat learns about appendixes. Basically, most of this is centered on Colton almost dying after about two weeks of treating people like shit. Forgot about Kat, though. Favorite line: "I'm going to call this a quit, Colton.  I just wanted you to be aware of that."

BTW, is there a threshold on how much abuse a detested person should receive? I mean, the mere thought of Colton gets me angry, especially when his backstory suggested a guy worth rooting for ("He's gay and his last name is 'Cumbie,' for God's sake" would be third on my list). Watching his appendicitis scare did not deter me from snarking on him. But I was a bit sad when I heard Caleb got killed by a train. Nobody should go through that. I mean, if Colton is constantly stepping on rakes the help left on the lawn, and they smack him in his face? I won't lie . . . the thought would make me smile.

[KimberStormer]

Hmm, I do love Kat, and crapping on Colton is always...

Quote

Jeez, you freaking cyborg.  Is there even a semblance of a human in there?

Ah there you are Mario, I thought so.

[laurakaye]

For those of us streaming old seasons, is there any season of Survivor that you refuse to watch a second time?

I have Hulu and in the past few months have re-watched seasons 12 through 31, with the exception of season 15 (China) and season 30 (Worlds Apart).

I remember being bored to tears by the Todd/Amanda combo, plus I seem to recall Amanda's half-closed eyes and semi-comatose manner of speaking drove me nuts.  And while there were some great players on Worlds, the whole Shirin/Will thing really bothered me, as did every word that came out of Dan Foley's mouth.

Anyone else?

[LadyChatts]

Redemption Island, South Pacific, Caramoan, All Stars, and Samoa (nothing really against Samoa, other than it was the Russell show and I found it boring as a result). 

[Nalan]

1 hour ago, LadyChatts said:

Redemption Island, South Pacific, Caramoan, All Stars, and Samoa (nothing really against Samoa, other than it was the Russell show and I found it boring as a result). 

I can actually rewatch South Pacific.  I just enjoy seeing Sophie win after Coach and Albert essentially make asses out of themselves in the back half of the game.

[simplyme]

Since I'm rewatching with someone who didn't start watching Survivor until MvsGx, I don't feel I can skip seasons. I think that's ended up being a good thing for me because I've rewatched seasons I probably would have passed on and gotten different things out of them the second time through. Courtney Yates, for example. I knew I liked her, but rewatching both China and HvV solidified my love. She's terrible at most challenges, but she knows exactly who she is and provides some great color commentary. She also knows exactly how to handle Probst when he's pushing things in a certain direction at TC, like harping about Courtney still being there in HvV while Rob-the-challenge-beast is gone. Her response was something like, "Well, Jeffrey, I didn't vote for Rob. I didn't vote for Tyson either. They were my allies and they're gone because they were not members of the dominant alliance."

I also didn't realize how good of a game Cirie played in Micronesia until I rewatched. She talked people into the Ozzy blindside. She came up with the idea of Erik giving his immunity necklace to Natalie and helped coach people on how to pull it off. She lost the final immunity challenge to Amanda. Had she won it, I feel like she wins the season.

Rewatching Tocantins was... interesting. I came away much less impressed with both JT and Stephen than I had been the first time. For all the talk we do of Stephen reigning in JT, he really doesn't except for one vote where JT stupidly considers voting Sierra out instead of Tyson. They both spend astonishing amounts of time talking about how noble Coach is and how he plays the game without lying, even after Sierra calls him out and Coach is caught in a lie. I ended up concluding that 1) JT must be much more charming in person, and 2) much of Timbira was so freaking dysfunctional that anyone who acted like a leader would get their vote.

[Nashville]

3 minutes ago, simplyme said:

She came up with the idea of Erik giving his immunity necklace to Natalie and helped coach people on how to pull it off.

The "Cirie is such a mastermind" freight train always runs off the rails for me when Erik's eviction is cited as supporting evidence.  To me, this move was - and will always be - less about Cirie's Survivor supergenius, and more about Erik's colossal superstupidity.  It's the Survivor equivalent of building a monstrous Rube Goldberg contraption to step on an ant.  :)

[Oholibamah]

37 minutes ago, simplyme said:

Since I'm rewatching with someone who didn't start watching Survivor until MvsGx, I don't feel I can skip seasons. I think that's ended up being a good thing for me because I've rewatched seasons I probably would have passed on and gotten different things out of them the second time through. Courtney Yates, for example. I knew I liked her, but rewatching both China and HvV solidified my love. She's terrible at most challenges, but she knows exactly who she is and provides some great color commentary. She also knows exactly how to handle Probst when he's pushing things in a certain direction at TC, like harping about Courtney still being there in HvV while Rob-the-challenge-beast is gone. Her response was something like, "Well, Jeffrey, I didn't vote for Rob. I didn't vote for Tyson either. They were my allies and they're gone because they were not members of the dominant alliance."

I also didn't realize how good of a game Cirie played in Micronesia until I rewatched. She talked people into the Ozzy blindside. She came up with the idea of Erik giving his immunity necklace to Natalie and helped coach people on how to pull it off. She lost the final immunity challenge to Amanda. Had she won it, I feel like she wins the season.

Rewatching Tocantins was... interesting. I came away much less impressed with both JT and Stephen than I had been the first time. For all the talk we do of Stephen reigning in JT, he really doesn't except for one vote where JT stupidly considers voting Sierra out instead of Tyson. They both spend astonishing amounts of time talking about how noble Coach is and how he plays the game without lying, even after Sierra calls him out and Coach is caught in a lie. I ended up concluding that 1) JT must be much more charming in person, and 2) much of Timbira was so freaking dysfunctional that anyone who acted like a leader would get their vote.

I too have this "JT and Stephen kind of suck" phenomenon come over me when I rewatch Tocantins. I always end up liking them again after, but I hate seeing how shitty they treat Sierra and Erinn, then turn around and coddle Coach. 

I do enjoy the season though because I generally think it's well-edited and interesting. It helps to watch with Erinn as a guiding perspective ("who is this jackass" will never not be amazing), even though she doesn't get a ton of airtime. 

23 minutes ago, Nashville said:

The "Cirie is such a mastermind" freight train always runs off the rails for me when Erik's eviction is cited as supporting evidence.  To me, this move was - and will always be - less about Cirie's Survivor supergenius, and more about Erik's colossal superstupidity.  It's the Survivor equivalent of building a monstrous Rube Goldberg contraption to step on an ant.  :)

For me, Cirie's genius here is that her pitch to Erik actually does make sense. She voted with the Fans against Amanda in the previous vote, which provides Erik a reasonable expectation of a common goal. She establishes a narrative that Erik is untrustworthy due to past actions: this both gives him reason to "redeem himself in the eyes of the jury", and figures giving away immunity as a transaction to prove his loyalty to Cirie in exchange for her vote against Amanda. 

I still think it was a bad decision, but viewers backseat-drive all the time that people should play to win, not just advance themselves one more week. I don't see Erik winning at FTC just from running Immunity until the end. He needed a move. This wasn't it, but that's easy for us to see from our couches.