Loathesome!: Characters We Hate

[Mabinogia]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And throughout their whole relationship, he made a point of mansplaining Buffy’s own feelings to her. Like he thought he knew what she needed better than she did. That, people, is a big red flag.

Anyone, man or woman, who tries to tell me what I'm feeling, as if I'm not the one actually feeling it....

[Bastet]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And throughout their whole relationship, he made a point of mansplaining Buffy’s own feelings to her. Like he thought he knew what she needed better than she did. That, people, is a big red flag.

I never watched Buffy, but that description gives me flashbacks to the horrible Gio on Ugly Betty.  From the moment he met her - when she dared ask for extra sun-dried tomatoes on her sandwich she was paying him to make and he went off about how he's a sandwich artist who knows the proper ingredients and ratios and she's a sell-out who works for a fashion magazine (yes, seriously) - that's all he ever did.

That show was fun, but it gave her absolutely terrible boyfriends without acknowledging they were terrible.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Bastet

[Spartan Girl]

It’s very telling that in “The Yoko Factor” when Riley is all paranoid about Buffy going to see Angel—made worse by Xander in his typical tactless fashion blabbing all the details of their past**—and he and Angel have their little alpha-male fight, his response to Buffy flat-out asking if she ever gave him a reason not to trust him was basically “I’m so in love with you it makes me crazy.” Um, wow. That’s neither an apology or accountability.

More telling us that he’s so preoccupied up with confronting Angel that he didn’t even notice her injuries from fighting Adam. Angel was the only one that asked her if she was all right. 

**Sidenote: As always, fuck you, Xander. “The one who sees” should have STFU when it was obvious Buffy hadn’t told all the details, and it sure as shit wasn’t his place to do it for her.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spartan Girl
Modifying comment to be less crude

[Blergh]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s very telling that in “The Yoko Factor” when Riley is all paranoid about Buffy going to see Angel—made worse by Xander in his typical tactless fashion blabbing all the details of their past**—and he and Angel have their alpha-male dick-measuring contest,  

I realize that even on cable TV this would have been a figurative rather than a literal contest and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were just using that as an allegory instead of trying to be literal. However, I so did NOT need  to have that image put into my brain!  There may be some folks out there who like envisioning spectacles such as that but I DO NOT!  Besides, there have been females who have been known initiate into verbal spats and/or have verbal contests with males and other females so that allegorical saying somewhat ignores that part of the picture.

And I say this as someone who otherwise AGREES with your summations and is relieved that I never bothered to watch that show!

Edited February 13, 2022 by Blergh

[Spartan Girl]

57 minutes ago, Blergh said:

I realize that even on cable TV this would have been a figurative rather than a literal contest and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were just using that as an allegory instead of trying to be literal. However, I so did NOT need  to have that image put into my brain!  There may be some folks out there who like envisioning spectacles such as that but I DO NOT!  Besides, there have been females who have been known initiate into verbal spats and/or have verbal contests with males and other females so that allegorical saying somewhat ignores that part of the picture.

And I say this as someone who otherwise AGREES with your summations and is relieved that I never bothered to watch that show!

My apologies. I meant it figuratively, not literally. I will go back and modify it.

[scarynikki12]

My Riley hate began when he found out about Buffy being the slayer. There's a scene where they compare kill counts and he learns that she's killed hundreds of demons. Her number makes his look almost nonexistent and he gets insecure about it. The rest of their relationship was an extension of this but this first moment alway stands out. At this point in the show they wanted to sell Riley as Buffy's new love interest so why not have his reaction be amusement? He could have been stunned into silence, then started laughing about how he had a long way to catch up, and done the I'm Not Worthy bow. Or really anything other than the expected insecurity to learning his girlfriend is stronger and a better fighter.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

At this point in the show they wanted to sell Riley as Buffy's new love interest so why not have his reaction be amusement? He could have been stunned into silence, then started laughing about how he had a long way to catch up, and done the I'm Not Worthy bow. Or really anything other than the expected insecurity to learning his girlfriend is stronger and a better fighter.

I would have loved him if he'd said something like "wow, I've got some catching up to do." And then their relationship was fueled by a playful competition where he knows he doesn't stand a chance of winning since she is literally destined to be the slayer, but does his best just to keep up, and support her. 

Riley, to me, was basically a slightly older Xander if Xander grew out of his awkward phase and joined the military. 

[JustHereForFood]

36 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Riley, to me, was basically a slightly older Xander if Xander grew out of his awkward phase and joined the military. 

I remember someone pointing out that Xander was probably such a fan of Riley because he saw him as a sort of self-insert of himself.

[Blergh]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

My Riley hate began when he found out about Buffy being the slayer. There's a scene where they compare kill counts and he learns that she's killed hundreds of demons. Her number makes his look almost nonexistent and he gets insecure about it. The rest of their relationship was an extension of this but this first moment alway stands out. At this point in the show they wanted to sell Riley as Buffy's new love interest so why not have his reaction be amusement? He could have been stunned into silence, then started laughing about how he had a long way to catch up, and done the I'm Not Worthy bow. Or really anything other than the expected insecurity to learning his girlfriend is stronger and a better fighter.

Too bad he couldn't have been like Annie Oakley's husband Frank Butler who (contrary to stage productions) was NOT intimidated by her prowess but was impressed by it from the start and adored her while helping to hone her skills as her manager. 

[Mabinogia]

21 hours ago, Blergh said:

Too bad he couldn't have been like Annie Oakley's husband Frank Butler who (contrary to stage productions) was NOT intimidated by her prowess but was impressed by it from the start and adored her while helping to hone her skills as her manager. 

Now that's hot! A supportive man who actually helps his woman shine! Can we get some of that please Hollywood. 

 

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Now that's hot! A supportive man who actually helps his woman shine! Can we get some of that please Hollywood. 

 

That would be so nice.

[Spartan Girl]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:51 PM, JustHereForFood said:

I remember someone pointing out that Xander was probably such a fan of Riley because he saw him as a sort of self-insert of himself.

And he'd probably feel the same way about Mal Reynolds on Firefly -- now there was ANOTHER toxic Whedon male. Admittingly, I haven't watched enough of that show to form a concrete opinion, but Mal definitely struck me as a tool. @Wiendish Fitch since I know you despise him, would you care to give a more detailed post on why he belongs in this thread?

[vibeology]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:51 PM, JustHereForFood said:

I remember someone pointing out that Xander was probably such a fan of Riley because he saw him as a sort of self-insert of himself.

That would certainly explain Xander's awful speech to Buffy when Riley left. One toxic man defending another.

[Ambrosefolly]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:45 PM, scarynikki12 said:

My Riley hate began when he found out about Buffy being the slayer. There's a scene where they compare kill counts and he learns that she's killed hundreds of demons. Her number makes his look almost nonexistent and he gets insecure about it. The rest of their relationship was an extension of this but this first moment alway stands out. At this point in the show they wanted to sell Riley as Buffy's new love interest so why not have his reaction be amusement? He could have been stunned into silence, then started laughing about how he had a long way to catch up, and done the I'm Not Worthy bow. Or really anything other than the expected insecurity to learning his girlfriend is stronger and a better fighter.

I know that everyone hates of Riley. I wasn't a fan either because I didn't think Marc Blucas clicked as Riley. I wished they cast Pedro Pascal instead of that throw away character they had. I have a feeling he would have made the character and storyline work better. But my take on it was that they were pushing Riley aside in favor of Spike being her new love interest. So like they do with a lot of other male love interests that they think are too "vanilla," they made him look as bad as possible and got rid of him. 

[JustHereForFood]

On 2/16/2022 at 7:51 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

I know that everyone hates of Riley. I wasn't a fan either because I didn't think Marc Blucas clicked as Riley. I wished they cast Pedro Pascal instead of that throw away character they had. I have a feeling he would have made the character and storyline work better. But my take on it was that they were pushing Riley aside in favor of Spike being her new love interest. So like they do with a lot of other male love interests that they think are too "vanilla," they made him look as bad as possible and got rid of him. 

Yeah, it's the whole "Ron the Death Eater / Draco in leather pants" approach. Bleh.

[Spartan Girl]

That was probably the case. Not that Spike was any better.

The thing is, Riley’s issues were somewhat caused by his lack of self-identity once he’s no longer in the Initiative and not having super strength. But instead of recognizing that issue, he lets it turn into resentment towards Buffy for 1) being stronger and 2) not considering him the center of her universe. 

Compare that to Angel’s brief stint as human in “I Will Remember You”. Unlike Riley, he had more emotional maturity to realize that he needed to figure out who he was now that he was no longer a vampire, but was willing to figure that out with Buffy and not let that get in the way of their relationship. Had things gone differently, he would have been fine to to just let Buffy shine without being insecure about his lesser abilities. But the only reason why he gives that up a la time reversal was because he had first-hand knowledge she would be doomed to die and couldn’t live with himself their happy ending would come at the cost of millions of lives, including hers. 

Say what you want about Angel, but he ultimately put Buffy first in the relationship. Whereas Riley, the “one that came along once in a lifetime,” did not.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[scarynikki12]

21 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Not that Spike was any better.

I still hate that Spike was ultimately considered a romantic hero when he was the dangerously obsessed stalker. The most honest the show ever was about him with regard to Buffy was when he had her chained up, threatening to stake Druscilla as proof that he was "in love" with her, and then Buffy responded "the only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious". There was a tiny bit of awareness that their season 6 relationship was toxic but the solution was to return his soul to make their history legitimate rather than kill him/make him the final Big Bad/make him a loyal lieutenant of The First/something else. Buffy's season 7 mantra of "he has a soul now" could have been commentary of the victim desperately trying to convince herself that everything is fine while her concerned and loving friends and family work to remove her from a dangerous and deadly situation. If Souled Spike was a completely different person then season 7 could have worked but he was the same guy he'd always been.

[Hiyo]

Yeah I never understood why Angel with a soul was a completely different person than without, but Spike was basically the same person.

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yeah I never understood why Angel with a soul was a completely different person than without, but Spike was basically the same person.

The writers wanted to have it both ways. They wanted Spike with a soul, but they wanted to keep him to keep his sarcastic vamp personality and not revert to mild-mannered nerdy William, which frankly screwed the pooch of the established “vampire bites you, you die, demon hijacks your body and memories” canon.

Really, it would have been more realistic to just to keep resouled William completely driven mad by all the terrible things Spike had done. Instead, as Angel later summed up, he just spent a few weeks in a basement and magically came to terms with his past. Lazy.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yeah I never understood why Angel with a soul was a completely different person than without, but Spike was basically the same person.

Especially since, when alive Angel was the asshole and Spike was just a soppy poet. 

 

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Really, it would have been more realistic to just to keep resouled William completely driven mad by all the terrible things Spike had done.

That would have been really compelling...and must too interesting for Joss to deal with. He seems to like black and white but seems a bit confused as to which is which. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Especially since, when alive Angel was the asshole and Spike was just a soppy poet. 

 

Well, Angel aka Liam was just a run-of-the-mill drunk dudebro, not really evil. Imagine “waking up” a century after he died/was bitten and finding out he murdered thousands of people, including his own family. The guilt and anguish he felt for centuries afterward drastically changed who he was, and that was far more believable a character arc than what Whedon did with Spike.

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The writers wanted to have it both ways. They wanted Spike with a soul, but they wanted to keep him to keep his sarcastic vamp personality and not revert to mild-mannered nerdy William, which frankly screwed the pooch of the established “vampire bites you, you die, demon hijacks your body and memories” canon.

Really, it would have been more realistic to just to keep resouled William completely driven mad by all the terrible things Spike had done. Instead, as Angel later summed up, he just spent a few weeks in a basement and magically came to terms with his past. Lazy.

The "demon hijacks your body" thing never really held water anyway. Angel's guilt over things he did as Angelus make no sense in that case. Drusilla being driven made before she was turned makes no sense either. They all remembered everything they did, as humans and vampires.

The characters were always played as being the same people they had been, but evil. But at least when Angel had a soul, his guilt kept most of his personality under wraps (handy, particularly in his Buffy days, before he'd really figured out how to act). In Angel, he started to show more of the personality traits that he'd had as a human, and that were amplified in Angelus.

Spike being a completely different person, before he was turned, was kind of dumb and just added to a muddled character. If they'd been able to plan his whole character out, and had him still quoting his own shitty poetry as a vamp, it would have worked much better.

Him still being wisecracking, 'charming' Spike after his soul was restored was probably due to the writers loving him so much, but the unwitting context is that he never felt bad about any of the things he did in those two hundred years of evil.

[Mabinogia]

9 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The "demon hijacks your body" thing never really held water anyway. Angel's guilt over things he did as Angelus make no sense in that case. Drusilla being driven made before she was turned makes no sense either. They all remembered everything they did, as humans and vampires.

That was just them trying to make Angel less culpable when he was a vampire so people would accept him as Buffy's true love. 

 

9 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Spike being a completely different person, before he was turned, was kind of dumb and just added to a muddled character. If they'd been able to plan his whole character out, and had him still quoting his own shitty poetry as a vamp, it would have worked much better.

OMG, that would have been hilarious! Surely someone, at some point would get to say "oh, just bite me and put me out of my misery!" while Spike was mid-sonnet. 

I actually did a mind fanfic (thought it, didn't write it down) where I rewrote Spikes past so that he was a royal executioner. His name was Spike because of his habit of sticking his victims heads on spikes on the gates into London as a warning to criminals. My original character was a witch he had done this two who was hunting him down. She ends up falling for Giles because who wouldn't? but she outs Spike's true past as an executioner rather than some simpering, moody poet. (I have a very strange imagination). 

I will say, since Spike was supposed to have died very early on, and Joss was basically forced to keep him around because fans loved him, I get them not actually having a character arc for him. And the idea to make him Buffy's love interest was basically one of the showrunners using her power to make the show do her own fanfic fantasy. 

Funny thing is, at the time I loved Spike and loved the idea of Spike and Buffy but now...I tried watching the show a few weeks ago/couple months (time has no meaning when you are home all the time) and nope. IDK what I was thinking. Still hate Angel and Riley though. That hasn't changed. Still loathe Xander, though in season 1 I kind of liked him, during the shows run I grew to despise him and rooted for his untimely demise every episode. 

[SJC]

Rory Gilmore owns this thread.
I am somewhat surprised at the loathing many GG watchers have for her. I get that she grew more and more entitled in the OS and was totally unlikeable in AYITL, but I don't think she was loathsome. 
I actually find her more likeable than Emily Gilmore who in my opinion was a vile witch from day one.

[JustHereForFood]

1 hour ago, SJC said:

Rory Gilmore owns this thread.
I am somewhat surprised at the loathing many GG watchers have for her. I get that she grew more and more entitled in the OS and was totally unlikeable in AYITL, but I don't think she was loathsome. 
I actually find her more likeable than Emily Gilmore who in my opinion was a vile witch from day one.

Rory is one of my most favorite characters from any series ever. I still haven't figured out why I keep going into the GG topics on this forum, with all their hate towards her. Emily and Richard are my unfavorite characters, along with Sookie, but Emily is still fun to watch. And once in a while, I would pick her side instead of Lorelai's, though that was very rarely.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, SJC said:

I am somewhat surprised at the loathing many GG watchers have for her. I get that she grew more and more entitled in the OS and was totally unlikeable in AYITL, but I don't think she was loathsome. 

I do.  I love her seasons 1-3 or 4.  But, sleeping with a married man, stealing a yacht, acting like a brat after her grandparents took her in, acting superior to the rich because she grew up "poor."

[Spartan Girl]

26 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I do.  I love her seasons 1-3 or 4.  But, sleeping with a married man, stealing a yacht, acting like a brat after her grandparents took her in, acting superior to the rich because she grew up "poor."

There was a pretty good video calling out Rory on all her crap:

 

[SJC]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I still haven't figured out why I keep going into the GG topics on this forum, with all their hate towards her.

Reddit is much worse. Ugh.

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, sleeping with a married man, stealing a yacht, acting like a brat after her grandparents took her in

All of that was awful, I agree. 
I still somewhat liked her in the OS though.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, SJC said:

Rory Gilmore owns this thread.
I am somewhat surprised at the loathing many GG watchers have for her. I get that she grew more and more entitled in the OS and was totally unlikeable in AYITL, but I don't think she was loathsome. 
I actually find her more likeable than Emily Gilmore who in my opinion was a vile witch from day one.

For me it's because I loved her in the beginning. For the first three seasons and most of season four she was a really great character. She loved reading, school and hanging out with her best friend and/or mom.  It was a nice change from the millions of TV teenage girls who were always chasing guys and partying. I liked her closeness with her mom, and always trying to bridge the gap between her mom and her grandparents. Then she just suddenly changed. She became an entitled spoiled brat who got everything handed to her, slept with a married man, chased other guys while she was dating Dean twice and couldn't handle one criticism. She was even worse in the revival. I really hate that a character I really liked became so horrible.  

I've always hated Emily. She started out a horrible person became even horrible to the point I wondered why Lorelai didn't cut her out of her life for good. She didn't care what Lorelai wanted or what made her happy. She wanted Lorelai to do and be exactly like Emily wanted. And her and Richard's constant praise for Christopher who did nothing to support or raise Rory while constantly putting down Lorelai and Luke. Richard was horrible too.  

[SJC]

1 minute ago, andromeda331 said:

I've always hated Emily. She started out a horrible person became even horrible to the point I wondered why Lorelai didn't cut her out of her life for good. She didn't care what Lorelai wanted or what made her happy. She wanted Lorelai to do and be exactly like Emily wanted. And her and Richard's constant praise for Christopher who did nothing to support or raise Rory while constantly putting down Lorelai and Luke. Richard was horrible too.  

I'd like to frame this.

Edited February 22, 2022 by SJC

[bluegirl147]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:05 PM, SJC said:

I actually find her more likeable than Emily Gilmore who in my opinion was a vile witch from day one.

 

23 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Emily and Richard are my unfavorite characters

 

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I've always hated Emily

I have found my people.  Emily was the worst.  I totally understood why Lorelei left.  And Emily was a horrible influence on Rory.

23 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

my unfavorite characters, along with Sookie,

I didn't dislike Sookie but man did she get on my nerves a lot.

In fact I'm not sure there was a single character that didn't get on my nerves.

Actually Logan didn't get on my nerves.  Dean and Jess both did but not Logan.

[SJC]

33 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Emily was the worst.  I totally understood why Lorelei left.  And Emily was a horrible influence on Rory.

This !!
*Some* folks dislike Rory & Lorelai so much that they proclaim Emily to be the best Gilmore Girl. Huh ?!
 

[JustHereForFood]

5 minutes ago, SJC said:

This !!
*Some* folks dislike Rory & Lorelai so much that they proclaim Emily to be the best Gilmore Girl. Huh ?!
 

I think it has to do with some of the snarky comments she sometimes made. I've noticed that a lot of viewers like snarky characters on TV that they would probably hate IRL, even if they are often otherwise total assholes. Case in point, Violet from Downton Abbey.

[SJC]

Makes sense.
IRL Emily likely would have eventually been slapped.

[juno]

2 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

In fact I'm not sure there was a single character that didn't get on my nerves.

I notice this a lot with many shows. Characters that start off as irritating or unpleasant become just unwatchable after a few seasons; Tom in Parks, Emily in GG, Dwight and Angela in Office, Allan in 2 and a half men and Jenna and Tracy in 30 Rock.

Some you can power through to the end of the shows some you can't. Most of the stars of 2 and a half men made the show unwatchable after a few years.

[Sweet Tee]

Quote

*Some* folks dislike Rory & Lorelai so much that they proclaim Emily to be the best Gilmore Girl. Huh ?!

Hey, I am perfectly capable of disliking all three of them.  

If I had to pick one, then Lorelai got on my nerves the least but she still had plenty of moments where I wanted to shake her and ask what she was thinking.

But yes, Emily was awful.  In the early seasons, I could kind of see both sides.  But, getting Christopher to try and break up Luke and Lorelai crossed a line that she never came back from IMO.

[Blergh]

No doubt the next two generations' entitlement and selfishness were inspired by Emily's example (and her rarely if ever getting called on it). 

[Zella]

3 hours ago, juno said:

Tom in Parks, Emily in GG, Dwight and Angela in Office, Allan in 2 and a half men and Jenna and Tracy in 30 Rock.

I'd add Sheldon in the BBT to that list. I refuse to believe Sheldon IRL would have had any friends left after a couple of seasons because he was such a dick to people, and the longer the show went on, the worst he got. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Zella

[Blergh]

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'd add Sheldon in the BBT to that list. I refuse to believe Sheldon IRL would have had any friends left after a couple of seasons because he was such a dick to people, and the longer the show went on, the worst he got. 

Yeah, his 'friendships' were about as realistic as all of Riley Matthews's peers adoring her on her show for the same reason. It would have helped make BOTH characters at least more tolerable if they'd gotten called out for being annoying (and possibly shunned if they didn't sincerely  attempt to change for the better) instead of having others congregate around them!

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I think it has to do with some of the snarky comments she sometimes made. I've noticed that a lot of viewers like snarky characters on TV that they would probably hate IRL, even if they are often otherwise total assholes. Case in point, Violet from Downton Abbey.

I think your right about that. I think that's why I like Michel on GG he can be snotty to customers and not be fired. As someone who's worked in retail for a decade. I've wished many times I could do that to rude or snotty customers but I didn't want to get fired.

3 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

Hey, I am perfectly capable of disliking all three of them.  

If I had to pick one, then Lorelai got on my nerves the least but she still had plenty of moments where I wanted to shake her and ask what she was thinking.

But yes, Emily was awful.  In the early seasons, I could kind of see both sides.  But, getting Christopher to try and break up Luke and Lorelai crossed a line that she never came back from IMO.

I agree about Lorelai. As annoying as she can get I'm still impressed that she left home got a job and raised a daughter on her own. She worked her way up the inn to manager, went to community college and opened her own inn. I also really liked how she was always there to help Lane and Mrs. Kim so the same thing that happened to her and Emily didn't happen to them. Rory lost all her good qualities and Emily never had any. 

[SJC]

3 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

Emily was awful.  In the early seasons, I could kind of see both sides.  But, getting Christopher to try and break up Luke and Lorelai crossed a line that she never came back from IMO.

That was horrid. 
And she was worse than ever in AYITL. Her storyline in *all* 4 episodes was TERRIBLE in my opinion.

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

It would have helped make BOTH characters at least more tolerable if they'd gotten called out for being annoying (and possibly shunned if they didn't sincerely  attempt to change for the better) instead of having others congregate around them!

Agreed. Another option that also works for me is, ala It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Vice Principals (which I am currently rewatching), all parties in the friend group or friendship are so deeply toxic or damaged that it makes sense that they vibe together while the rest of the world is clearly horrified/repulsed by said people. 

[LennieBriscoe]

On 2/3/2021 at 1:59 AM, Danny Franks said:

He's incredibly good as the vapid, entitled arsehole in The Hour, a BBC drama about the birth of television news in the 1950s. 

West plays the philandering, charismatic rich boy who is picked as the news anchor, against Romola Garai's extremely competent producer (who he naturally sleeps with before she realises just what a tool he is) and Ben Whishaw's razor sharp journalist who wanted the job West's character trips into.

I was so hoping for a thread on "The Hour"! Absolutely love Ben Whishaw! (And the "Moneypenny" running gag!) 

Edited February 23, 2022 by LennieBriscoe

[Spartan Girl]

Kate on This Is Us is getting very tiresome. She expects Toby’s unconditional support for her problems, but if Toby loses weight or admits he’s having a hard time dealing with their son’s vision impairment or needing to find a job, suddenly it’s a big problem for her.  

[Shannon L.]

15 hours ago, juno said:

I notice this a lot with many shows. Characters that start off as irritating or unpleasant become just unwatchable after a few seasons; Tom in Parks, Emily in GG, Dwight and Angela in Office, Allan in 2 and a half men and Jenna and Tracy in 30 Rock.

Some you can power through to the end of the shows some you can't. Most of the stars of 2 and a half men made the show unwatchable after a few years.

I mentioned this recently on the UO thread when they were talking about Will and Grace.  I had to stop watching eventually because Karen and Jack, who I thought were funny the first season or two, continued to get worse until they were insufferable.  I said that the shows that I enjoyed all the way until the finale were shows where the characters either stayed the same or showed some growth w/o losing their core personality traits (M*A*S*H, WKRP and Designing Women come to mind examples, although I did give up DW after Suzanne and Charlene left--I didn't like the new characters).

[bluegirl147]

If a show has a character I don't like from the beginning such as Randall from TIU I can enjoy the show. I might complain about them but I know whatever they do is going to bother me so it tends to bother me less.  If a show has a character I initially disliked but then grew to like such as Logan from Veronica Mars all the better. It usually means there is good writing and acting.   But if a show has a character I did like but then totally ruined I will hate everyone involved in that horrible decision.  I'm looking at you AJLT. What you did to Miranda is unforgivable.  

[Spartan Girl]

I wasn’t really a fan of Miranda on SATC, but on AJLT she has really become the worst. And the fact that Cynthia Nixon and Michael Patrick King keep trying to gaslight us into thinking that otherwise makes me want to tear my hair out.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

If a show has a character I initially disliked but then grew to like such as Logan from Veronica Mars all the better.

That's how I feel about Rory from Gilmore Girls. Or Julia from Party of Five. Mary from Young Sheldon.

[Katy M]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:52 PM, Sweet Tee said:

But yes, Emily was awful.  In the early seasons, I could kind of see both sides.  But, getting Christopher to try and break up Luke and Lorelai crossed a line that she never came back from IMO.

I feel like I liked everybody better in the earlier seasons.  Except for Lane and Paris. i always loved Lane and Paris was much better in the later seasons.  I'm also sure this isn't true for every single character, but I mean major ones.

[SJC]

39 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm also sure this isn't true for every single character, but I mean major ones.

Anna was the WORST.