Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Velocity23]

If it makes you feel any better they also trended for Olicity

https://twitter.com/Pedrok_Russell/status/522492954477625346

[quarks]

Also, pfft, does trending while ilegally livestreaming a show counts?

 

 

Yes, but I refuse to blame Brazil for any of this.

[Velocity23]

If it makes you feel any better they also trended Olicity but that was a few hours before the show.

https://twitter.com/Pedrok_Russell/status/522492954477625346

[bravelittletoaster]

Oh my God, they actually buried her in a fridge?  What a bunch of dicks.

 

tbh I'm a snob and tend mostly to watch "prestige" tv, so my forays into network and basic cable fare are occasional at best, and I'm not accustomed to being treated like shit by tv writers.  The only other example I know firsthand of viewers being trolled hardcore by writers is Glee.  Maybe the Arrow folk should ask them how that worked out for them.  Ha.

Edited October 16, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[apinknightmare]

Oh my God, they actually buried her in a fridge?  What a bunch of dicks.

 

No, they put her in a freezer while they figured out where to bury her, which was in an old grave in a pine box. But yeah, dicks.

[Sakura12]

I'm bitter that I was robbed seeing more of present day Sara and Nyssa. Instead they are probably going to stick everyone with Nyssa and Laurel scenes. Unless she's tranqing her I don't want to see Nyssa and Laurel. It was Sara and Nyssa's relationship that I was interested in. What's next is Laurel going to be bonding with Sin? Are they just going hand all of Sara's meaningful relationships to Laurel.

I saw a really good answer to the "Laurel has to become BC because comics" debate. All Laurel has is the name, however that's like someone saying they are your sister because they have the same name as her. You're not doing to accept that person as you sister.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Sakura12

[somewhereother]

I went from being amused at the sometimes stupidity of the show to being outright bitter this week. 

 

I honestly thought that there was a long game of accepting and recognising that laurel is dishonest, fairly incompetent and mentally unstable and that at one point the writers would acknowledge that this was a direction that they were working towards. Everyone would then heave a sigh of relief and say 'I knew it'.

 

Then Sara died (and in such a way). Then the reference to the freezer with the line “we didn’t know what to do with her”. There is no way that was a not deliberate.

 

Now I feel like the writers are just gas-lighting the fans with the character of Laurel. And I am tired of it. I am not interested in trying to reconcile Laurel as written/acted and what the writers say about her or her intended role as BC. That is just too much heavy lifting, its exhausting. The mental gymnastics required to make her actions in any way palatable let alone heroic are at present reliant on the audience not listening to the dialogue, forgetting any previous actions of the character, and ignoring facial and body language cues - that is ridiculous.

 

The main impression I am left with is that they must have really hated Black Canary to punish her like this.  I went from ignoring Laurel and accepting that season 3 was make or break for her, to having a hair trigger of intolerance for her presence - is that how I am meant to feel about the lead of a show?

Edited October 17, 2014 by somewhereother

[tv echo]

In their haste to dump her into the nearest open grave and move on as though she never existed, I imagine there are a fair number of things that the EPs forgot about Sara. But my guess is that you won't hear very much about her, one way or another, once the 'mystery' of why the EPs killed her is resolved.

I agree, Danny Franks.  It's ironic, given that this season Sara's death will supposedly motivate Laurel the way Tommy's death motivated Oliver in Season 2. 

 

But once the 'mystery' of her killer is solved, it'll be like "Sara Who?"  Forget about Sara.  Forget the sister-swapping.  Forget we once had this awesome Black Canary.  Look over here (waving hands), we've got this brand-new awesome Black Canary in fishnets!  And her name is Dinah Laurel Lance - just like in the comic books!

[Menrva]

To preface, the following is my opinion and I don’t expect anyone to agree with me. And I’m sorry, but I really need to vent about the clusterfuck that is Laurel Lance. 

So yes, I’m bitter about Sara’s death as well. What a horrendous, pointless, cruel way to end a wonderfully multi-layered, complex character. I was disgusted. And now I have to see Laurel waltz in from Planet Look At Me!Look At Me! assume the mantle of Black Canary, suddenly able to take down villains because she’s Dinah Laurel Fucking Lance, and that’s how it’s in the comics, so that’s that…

I mean, there’s no point in arguing, is there? The EPs have decided and we fans have no recourse (except to stop watching the show, I guess). Because let’s face it, Laurel could eat newborn babies live on TV, she could confess to being an Adolf Hitler fangirl and that Mein Kampf is like, her most favorite book ever, and nothing will stop her from becoming Black Canary. It’s a done deal. She’s already been shown being totally at ease with blackmail, lying, abusing her powers as an ADA, shooting people in the back and assaulting someone lying in a hospital bed. And this is someone I’m supposed to root for? Honestly, Laurel disgusts me. She’s a selfish, manipulative bitch. I’m sorry, I know that Laurel has her fans and there are some who are indifferent to her, but she just makes me seethe.

I really enjoyed Arrow, for the most part, but I just don’t know if I can continue watching anymore. I’m pissed that one character is so toxic for me that I can’t enjoy the rest of the show. Arrow is far from perfect, and it has some serious issues with how it treats its female characters but I liked it well enough until this season. Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm not sure that I've ever watched a show where the people in charge actually resent a character they have created because their creation was a success.  The death by dumpster, literal fridging, and burial in a wooden box seem like such overkill that I'm left wondering if the EPs had some major personal issue with Caity or what.  It just seems like an awful way to treat an actress on your show. 

 

I wish that the EPs would get the memo re: Laurel Lance.  If she was a successful character, people wouldn't be removing her image from the S3 poster, she wouldn't show up multiple places as "worst character", she wouldn't have been pushed aside as the love interest, and the guest actress that was hired to inhabit her "destined" role as BC wouldn't have become so popular.  

 

I sometimes wonder if there is a deliberate attempt to make Laurel as inept as possible, but then I realize that they just killed the only other viable BC option that they had.  I can't fathom why they would have done that if they intend to resolve Laurel's arc by her not becoming BC.  If you want to leave yourself an out, you don't get rid of your only backup, but that's exactly what they did.  Here's hoping that if Laurel's story is an epic fail, the EPs just let it go.  Stop trying to make it happen if people don't want it.

 

[writersblock51]

I sometimes wonder if there is a deliberate attempt to make Laurel as inept as possible, but then I realize that they just killed the only other viable BC option that they had.  I can't fathom why they would have done that if they intend to resolve Laurel's arc by her not becoming BC.  If you want to leave yourself an out, you don't get rid of your only backup, but that's exactly what they did.  Here's hoping that if Laurel's story is an epic fail, the EPs just let it go.  Stop trying to make it happen if people don't want it.

 

Let's just toss out a theory that there's something in KC's contract that stipulates that she becomes Black Canary within a certain time frame.  If her contract is for 3 years, it would have to be during that time.  4 years, and so on.  Based on that 1 assumption, it becomes more feasible that the show's hands have been tied since the lack of enthusiasm for Laurel was apparent to most people during season 1.  "Most people" being advertisers, critics and social-media savvy fans.

 

The show decides to re-cast Sara for her long planned return (the EPs have said that they knew all along that Sara didn't die on the Gambit). Instead of returning to Starling City as Ravanger, however, she's Canary.  The show can test the waters to see if 'most people' like her enough to see her show up, interact with Oliver and Laurel (the original Black Canary in the show's plan), and then ease her out.  This would open the way to Laurel taking over.  Canary 2.0, keeping the show's record of 'the 2nd incarnation = the REAL one" relatively intact.  Maybe this 2nd season will give fans a chance to like Laurel more (but not really, hence the stupid writing for her).

 

The problem, using these assumptions, then becomes what to do with Sara/CL because she's well received by "most people," and Laurel continues to slide back into vitroil or - worse - obsecurity. 

 

Contract is looming by the end of Season 2. A legal team is getting figidty.  The show decides to hide Sara's shocking(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) death during the entire hiatus, even sending out red herring clues through the cast and EPs. 

 

Then it happens - the lawyers calm down. The network, which cannot afford a lawsuit, anxiously awaits reaction. And it's brutal.  Some fans but not 'most fans' are happy.

 

The decision, then, becomes this: can the network afford the contract issue or can it better afford to have the show plod along, fuliflling it's legal obligations for this season.

 

One possible backdoor save could come out of this: write Laurel as unlikeable, inconsistent and frustrating as possible, all while within the confines of the contract.  If there is no language in the contract about the number of scenes she has to be in or lines she gets to speak, then the show gives her a few 'big scenes' and then she's not in the spotlight again.   Either KC then does her share of plodding along, doggedly talking about how great being BC will be (and asking her fans to tell the EPs how much they want her on the show) to plod through the rest of the season or - backdoor save time - she decides to break the contract, out of disgust.  The network & studio decide not to pursue legal action against her.

 

Then the decision would be: a new Black Canary (Nyssa? Sin? Someone we haven't met yet), a return of Sara via a Lazarus Pit or something, OR no Black Canary anymore.

Edited October 17, 2014 by writersblock51

[Danny Franks]

^ It would have made more sense to keep Sara alive, but have her actually say, 'I'm off to be an assassin again... stop grinning! Anyway, so I'm off, and I can't be the Canary that protects this city. You do it.'

 

*Laurel training montage. Handwave, handwave. Ridiculous.*

 

So Laurel is the Canary, and she has a bit of success and gets too big for her fishnets, and refuses to listen to Oliver because she's so super awesome and this is her destiny. And she gets killed. So there, Katie Cassidy got to be the Black Canary. She also got dead. And then Sara can return to avenge her dumbass sister's death, and everyone can just quietly forget that Laurel existed. But at least give her a decent funeral, and not one in a fridge or a packing crate or whatever.

 

But that could never happen, because these EPs have a boner for Laurel, and for writing her like a word I'm not going to use on here.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[blixie]

While I am no where near as bothered by the idea that Ray is stalker or bitter that he's involved in Felicity's story, largely because if Felicity were a dude being professionally wooed no one would be saying that, it's amazing to me how The Arrow/Flash writer producers continue to make the same mistakes over and over and over.

 

Ray could have pursued Felicity w/o having those over tones, but they went there and have called the character a  "stalker" in narrative about 10 times already. They have an amazing ability to undermine characters they ostensibly want you to buy into and root for, and spend in ordinate amounts of time getting you to root for characters they plan to dispose of (Tommy, Moira, Sara). I see them writing Iris into the same pitfalls as Laurel on The Flash too, BFF with the hero, yet inexplicably blind to what is really going with him, especially the bit where she's completely oblivious/insensitive to the 100 foot blinking light sign on his forward that he's in love with her. The actress isn't unpleasant, but I did find her overly saccharine which can be just as problematic.

[Kymmi]

While I would to dream that her contract was a 3 year contract, didn't Colin Donnell give an interview where he revealed he had a 7 year contract?  Odd that KC's would be so short when she was signed at the beginning.

[quarks]

And blixie, on a similar note, what were two of the biggest complaints about Arrow's first season?  1) The love triangle and 2) Laurel being too clueless to figure out the truth. So what are they doing this season?

 

1. Creating new love triangles on Arrow and on Flash. Bonus points for making both new love triangles somewhat questionable - Ray with the stalking, pointed out multiple times in script, and Iris and Barry with the foster/adoptive issue.

 

2. Making Iris too clueless to figure out the truth on Flash.  Arguably worse in this case because, seriously, why isn't Barry telling her? Oliver had very good reasons - he and Laurel had that past, her father was hostile to his identities, and he was a serial killer.

 

Hmm.

[Danny Franks]

And blixie, on a similar note, what were two of the biggest complaints about Arrow's first season?  1) The love triangle and 2) Laurel being too clueless to figure out the truth. So what are they doing this season?

 

1. Creating new love triangles on Arrow and on Flash. Bonus points for making both new love triangles somewhat questionable - Ray with the stalking, pointed out multiple times in script, and Iris and Barry with the foster/adoptive issue.

 

2. Making Iris too clueless to figure out the truth on Flash.  Arguably worse in this case because, seriously, why isn't Barry telling her? Oliver had very good reasons - he and Laurel had that past, her father was hostile to his identities, and he was a serial killer.

 

Hmm.

 

I said, after watching The Flash pilot, that it was so clear they were going to make the same mistakes with Iris that they made with Laurel. Only this time even worse, because everyone on that show knows that Barry is the Flash except Iris. They made her a character that clearly just lifts right out of the show, with nothing being lost. Just like Laurel always has been.

[quarks]

Since we're chatting about Flash, a few other thoughts occurred to me.

 

It seems to me that one unforeseen (to me) issue with developing Flash is that, for whatever reason, the producers have decided that it's absolutely necessary to ensure that, crossovers or no crossovers, viewers don't confuse the shows in any way. So, since Flash, for whatever reason, is mostly going light hearted and happy and brightly colored with a few odd "My dad's in jail! Turn on the grey filters" moments here and there, Arrow, to drive home this point, is going darker, visually and otherwise. Seriously I think the Arrow characters were in normal daylight in the present timeline for about five minutes of screentime in "Calm" - and it says something that two of those were Oliver/Felicity scenes, and the other was an indoors Laurel/Quentin scene. Everything else was dark and at night. "Sara" had all of two even normally lit scenes in the present timeline, both Felicity/Ray scenes.  This was also obvious in the Flash pilot - everything was bright and colorful until Oliver's cameo when oh yes, we're in Starling City now. MUST BE NIGHTTIME.

 

And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Arrow, after all, has been dark from the getgo.  But, and I think this is significant, there's a difference between "dark" and "depressing."  Even Arrow's darkest episodes before this generally had at least one uplifting or funny moment - often several.  The season one finale, for instance, despite ending in death and destruction, at least had those great moments where Moira finally stood up to help save the city, Diggle insisted on coming along with Oliver, China's economy was saved, and Thea decided to try to save Roy and they had their nice if frankly somewhat inappropriate given what else was going on makeout session.   And Felicity's little "Kinda makes him a hero, doesn't it?"

 

In contrast, this last episode was almost entirely depressing - and even some of the elements that weren't depressing had depressing moments: the first Felicity/Ray scene, which focused on stalking and how powerless she was against him, since he was able to purchase her workplace, and ended with her almost breaking down in tears; the Hong Kong flashbacks, which ended with Tommy breaking down in tears; and Thea and Malcolm, a scene that means Thea has either gone way off the deep end or is in major danger.  

 

And unfortunately, this is connected to another problem brought up on this board and elsewhere: the combination of Oliver Queen's manpain and uh, can this guy ever catch a break?

 

Because for the past two seasons Oliver has:

 

1. Been shipwrecked.

 

2. Watched his father commit suicide.

 

3. Been tortured by various people on the island and watched his lover get violently killed.

 

4. Got dumped by Helena, McKenna, Laurel, and Sara.

 

5. Lost his best friend.

 

6. Watched his mother get impaled.

 

7. Lost his company.

 

8. Hasn't had contact with his sister in months.

 

9. Dealt with two major terrorist attacks in two years.

 

10. Lost his company again.

 

11. Broke up with Felicity.

 

12. Lost his fellow vigilante/long term friend.

 

That's a lot. And at a certain point, you need to give the guy a break. It doesn't have to be a huge break, and we did get one at the end of Unbreakable. But it might have been better to make that break last for a bit longer than the end of Unbreakable and twenty minutes of the premiere.  But - that would have made it difficult to distinguish between Arrow and Flash, at least until the second show gets started.

[DrSpaceman10]

It seems to me that one unforeseen (to me) issue with developing Flash is that, for whatever reason, the producers have decided that it's absolutely 

And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Arrow, after all, has been dark from the getgo.  But, and I think this is significant, there's a difference between "dark" and "depressing."  Even Arrow's darkest episodes before this generally had at least one uplifting or funny moment - often several.  

 

That's a lot. And at a certain point, you need to give the guy a break. It doesn't have to be a huge break, and we did get one at the end of Unbreakable. But it might have been better to make that break last for a bit longer than the end of Unbreakable and twenty minutes of the premiere.  But - that would have made it difficult to distinguish between Arrow and Flash, at least until the second show gets started.

 

I completely agree with all of this. There is a significant difference between dark (season 1 and most of season 2) and depressing. I think Arrow being downright depressing this season is a large part of the reason for the ratings drop. I mean a show can be dark, but you still need to have moments of hope/light. Episode 3x02 was severely lacking in any hopeful moments. I'm hoping that the season is going to move in a lighter direction.

Edited October 17, 2014 by drspaceman10

[Password]

Since we're chatting about Flash, a few other thoughts occurred to me.

 

It seems to me that one unforeseen (to me) issue with developing Flash is that, for whatever reason, the producers have decided that it's absolutely necessary to ensure that, crossovers or no crossovers, viewers don't confuse the shows in any way. So, since Flash, for whatever reason, is mostly going light hearted and happy and brightly colored with a few odd "My dad's in jail! Turn on the grey filters" moments here and there, Arrow, to drive home this point, is going darker, visually and otherwise. Seriously I think the Arrow characters were in normal daylight in the present timeline for about five minutes of screentime in "Calm" - and it says something that two of those were Oliver/Felicity scenes, and the other was an indoors Laurel/Quentin scene. Everything else was dark and at night. "Sara" had all of two even normally lit scenes in the present timeline, both Felicity/Ray scenes.  This was also obvious in the Flash pilot - everything was bright and colorful until Oliver's cameo when oh yes, we're in Starling City now. MUST BE NIGHTTIME.

 

And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Arrow, after all, has been dark from the getgo.  But, and I think this is significant, there's a difference between "dark" and "depressing."  Even Arrow's darkest episodes before this generally had at least one uplifting or funny moment - often several.  The season one finale, for instance, despite ending in death and destruction, at least had those great moments where Moira finally stood up to help save the city, Diggle insisted on coming along with Oliver, China's economy was saved, and Thea decided to try to save Roy and they had their nice if frankly somewhat inappropriate given what else was going on makeout session.   And Felicity's little "Kinda makes him a hero, doesn't it?"

 

In contrast, this last episode was almost entirely depressing - and even some of the elements that weren't depressing had depressing moments: the first Felicity/Ray scene, which focused on stalking and how powerless she was against him, since he was able to purchase her workplace, and ended with her almost breaking down in tears; the Hong Kong flashbacks, which ended with Tommy breaking down in tears; and Thea and Malcolm, a scene that means Thea has either gone way off the deep end or is in major danger.  

 

And unfortunately, this is connected to another problem brought up on this board and elsewhere: the combination of Oliver Queen's manpain and uh, can this guy ever catch a break?

 

Because for the past two seasons Oliver has:

 

1. Been shipwrecked.

 

2. Watched his father commit suicide.

 

3. Been tortured by various people on the island and watched his lover get violently killed.

 

4. Got dumped by Helena, McKenna, Laurel, and Sara.

 

5. Lost his best friend.

 

6. Watched his mother get impaled.

 

7. Lost his company.

 

8. Hasn't had contact with his sister in months.

 

9. Dealt with two major terrorist attacks in two years.

 

10. Lost his company again.

 

11. Broke up with Felicity.

 

12. Lost his fellow vigilante/long term friend.

 

That's a lot. And at a certain point, you need to give the guy a break. It doesn't have to be a huge break, and we did get one at the end of Unbreakable. But it might have been better to make that break last for a bit longer than the end of Unbreakable and twenty minutes of the premiere.  But - that would have made it difficult to distinguish between Arrow and Flash, at least until the second show gets started.

 

You pretty much nailed it on the head for me concerning Oliver even having a reason to continue living. If he keeps losing people and things keep happening, either he goes to a psychologist or he remains closed off. I can't see him growing in any shape or form without help, whilst his world continually crumbles. Enough. No more. This coming from someone who was royally snotted off with Oliver in season 2b, but now I can't find the strength to fault him. I really can't. Just give him some win. Please.

[MostlyC]

Flash has it's own thread.  It's shiny!  It aspires to be as busy as the Arrow Thread!

 

You can find it here:  http://forums.previously.tv/forum/797-the-flash/

 

Please move your Flash Talk there.

[Ceylon5]

The relentless darkness of Arrow is one of the features that I've always liked least about it.  I like shows full of light and colour and beautiful scenery, so I find the need for the Arrow to only come out at night rather tiresome.  Also, I don't really understand why he can't go out in the daytime - is it just because his "disguise" is so poor that we're supposed to believe it works at night but wouldn't work in the daylight?  Get a better mask, then, Oliver!  Other than that I can't think of any reason for this rather pointless need to never, ever be seen in daylight in his Arrow clothes.  Or is that some accepted (however irrational) comic book thing?

 

I think it also contributes to some of the terrible nonsensical timelines on the show, because they have to try to contort the story so that all Arrow related activity happens in the dark.

[Happy Harpy]

I completely agree about the difference between dark and depressing.

 

And for me, the difference lies in Team Arrow. 

 

Felicity and Diggle didn't always agree with what Oliver did, and called him upon his shit. But they understood him, or where he came from. They believed in him when he didn't, kicked his ass when he needed it, but they were an unconditionally at his side. Even during their conflicts, there was a link there, unfailing and unwavering.

Team Arrow was enough, for me, to counterbalance even the final gut-wrenching sucker punch moment in Oliver's life, Moira's death. The whole world could be crumbling down in-universe, and I still wouldn't have found the show depressing. Because when all was said and done, Oliver had Felicity and Diggle, he would always have Felicity and Diggle...so he always won, somewhere.

 

And for me, so far, one thing is clear about S3: it aims at changing that. In obvious and less conspicuous ways, in happiness or sorrow, in fleeting episode moments or starts of long arcs...there's this constant, underlying feeling that everything is in movement to separate Oliver from Diggle and Felicity. Diggle's fatherhood and Felicity going to work for Ray seem like groundwork to write them off. Moreover

Team Arrow as a trio -and not only parts of it- is from what I gathered noticeably absent from the spoilers in the episodes to come

. There's this feeling of doom when I think of the direction of the show, this feeling that Arrow and its TV universe as I know and love it will be replaced by the ersatz of an old comic book version I don't care about.

 

For me, Diggle and Felicity were imo Oliver's light all along, therefore they were the show's light all long. And I think that when the EPs hit that "reset button", they unfortunately turned the light off.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Chaser]

I told my parents (fans, but don't read anything online) about Laurel becoming the Black Canary. My Dad's respond: "But How? Why? Is that why they killed Sara? That's stupid."

[dtissagirl]

Other than that I can't think of any reason for this rather pointless need to never, ever be seen in daylight in his Arrow clothes.  Or is that some accepted (however irrational) comic book thing?

 

For Batman? Sure. He is the [k]night, after all. For Green Arrow? Not so much. The general public even knew Oliver was GA in a few iterations, so he could go out whatever time of the day, no worries.

 

I'm always drawn to a specific kind of storytelling that can be summarized by "the world is ending: crack a joke". Which is what endeared Green Arrow to me both on Smallville, and the GA comics. Here's a dude who WILL crack a horrible joke and/or make a stupid pun while the world is ending.

 

And I thought the addition of Diggle and Felicity to the team made Oliver lighter, which made him more interesting to me. And I really felt that between 201 and 209 they hit the perfect notes in the tone of the episodes -- there was drama and angst for sure, but there was also lighter moments, and humor, and more importantly, there was this underlying sense of HOPE. Season 2B slowly started killing that hopeful tone, and 3x02 told me this is an entirely hopeless universe. And I'm not really sure I have much interest in watching that.

[Sunshine]

I completely agree about the difference between dark and depressing.

 

And for me, the difference lies in Team Arrow.... 

 

And for me, so far, one thing is clear about S3: it aims at changing that. In obvious and less conspicuous ways, in happiness or sorrow, in fleeting episode moments or starts of long arcs...there's this constant, underlying feeling that everything is in movement to separate Oliver from Diggle and Felicity. Diggle's fatherhood and Felicity going to work for Ray seem like groundwork to write them off. Moreover

Team Arrow as a trio -and not only parts of it- is from what I gathered noticeably absent from the spoilers in the episodes to come

. There's this feeling of doom when I think of the direction of the show, this feeling that Arrow and its TV universe as I know and love it will be replaced by the ersatz of an old comic book version I don't care about.

 

For me, Diggle and Felicity were imo Oliver's light all along, therefore they were the show's light all long. And I think that when the EPs hit that "reset button", they unfortunately turned the light off.

This expresses how I feel also.  They said pre-season that the first couple of episodes would be rough on Team Arrow.  It's worse than I thought.  I think the part of the show I loved the most is gone.

 

FWIW, I went from being apathetic towards Laurel and disliking KC to hating Laurel and KC in one episode. (When I say hating KC I mean as an actress not personally.  I don't know her.)

Edited October 17, 2014 by Sunshine

[Genki]

Watching with my sister this week who is similar to @10Eleven12's parents...

 

During the previously on arrow…..

 

Sis: "Why did they kill off Sara?"

Me: "So Laurel can become the Black Canary" (with much bitterness and scoffing in my tone)

Sis: "WHY?!?!???" (Disgusted look)

 

Ever time Oliver and Laurel hugged my sister was all, "No Chemistry", "I get the feeling that he hates her, as a person"

 

I really can't trust the producers and I'm back to suffering pre-finale Season 2B, this is going to be as bad as HIMYM, stress. I feel they are wilfully and deliberately trying maintain some agenda (writing for plot rather than character), that is going to make me hate this show. It's not good when I spend most of the show dwelling on some Meta-reason for why X is happening on screen.

 

And what @dancingnancy said, need moments of lighter Oliver, the show is better [/paraphrase], as much as I'm loving Stephen Amell's work right now, the show is nowhere near Season 2A for balance, quality and enjoyment.

 

I don't want Smarmy Ray, to bring the "comedy", I want the characters I like to interact and be team arrow. I even want Roy included in this.

 

Also From the media thread, cast interviews without Emily but with Kate Cassidy….I'm just going to skip all her stuff, not even giving the clicks.

 

[/bitterness dump]

[Starfish35]

So.....finally weighing in with my two cents over season three developments. I've just been sick and furious over the whole thing, but I doubt I can say anything that you all haven't already said. But like several of you, Sara's death was the end of the show for me. Barring the unlikely event that they put Laurel on a bus out of town with Huntress and Katana at the end of the season, I don't see myself ever watching this show again.

I haven't actually watched either episode. I happened to drop by TVLine before I watched the premiere and saw the headline "Arrow EP on

's Death" and thought "wait

what?" And then went straight to rage. :(

It's not just about Sara dying. I expected that at some point this season. But I never thought it would be in the first episode. I never seriously thought that they would really try to do Sara flashbacks after her death. (How pointless is that?) And I never thought they'd throw her out like trash (and literally fridge her). I always assumed she'd die a hero's death, mostly likely saving Laurel, or Sin, thus inspiring Laurel to likewise take up the hero's mantle. But this whole revenge crap? Again?

As someone else pointed out, they have now brutally executed three women so far, in a relatively short period of time, for "storyline purposes." All three were powerful strong women who ended up helpless at the hands of their executioner. And by literally placing Sara in a fridge, the writers are deliberately thumbing their noses at those who would call them out on it. If nothing else, that alone would make me rage.

And Laurel. If I hated her before, it's nothing compared to how I hate her now, and KC's interviews are only fanning the flames. And the bit about not telling her father, and the whole secret death thing? Rage, rage, rage. So much rage.

So Arrow and I are done. In spite of the other things I would like to see (Thea, Diggle, Felicity backstory), I just simply cannot deal with Laurel at all anymore. Too bad. There was a lot of potential there, but unfortunately the writers are too fixated on their comics canon. I guess we'll see how that works out for them. It doesn't work for me.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

Despite their best efforts I don't think there is anything the EP's can do to make Laurel popular beyond whoever likes her already. That ship has sailed. But it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to watch what they did to Sara and know they could have easily avoided half their problem, which is killing off the better Canary to force feed us a lesser one. They say they were always planning to bring Sara back, so they should have stuck with their original plan and made her Ravager, or come up with some other identity associated with the LoA. This would have also have had the added benefit of avoiding the mess they made of Isabel. Laurel could go on to become BC whenever the writers and KC get their acts together.

Edited October 17, 2014 by KirkB

[Guest]

I completely agree about the difference between dark and depressing.

 

And for me, the difference lies in Team Arrow. 

 

Felicity and Diggle didn't always agree with what Oliver did, and called him upon his shit. But they understood him, or where he came from. They believed in him when he didn't, kicked his ass when he needed it, but they were an unconditionally at his side. Even during their conflicts, there was a link there, unfailing and unwavering.

Team Arrow was enough, for me, to counterbalance even the final gut-wrenching sucker punch moment in Oliver's life, Moira's death. The whole world could be crumbling down in-universe, and I still wouldn't have found the show depressing. Because when all was said and done, Oliver had Felicity and Diggle, he would always have Felicity and Diggle...so he always won, somewhere.

 

And for me, so far, one thing is clear about S3: it aims at changing that. In obvious and less conspicuous ways, in happiness or sorrow, in fleeting episode moments or starts of long arcs...there's this constant, underlying feeling that everything is in movement to separate Oliver from Diggle and Felicity. Diggle's fatherhood and Felicity going to work for Ray seem like groundwork to write them off. Moreover

Team Arrow as a trio -and not only parts of it- is from what I gathered noticeably absent from the spoilers in the episodes to come

. There's this feeling of doom when I think of the direction of the show, this feeling that Arrow and its TV universe as I know and love it will be replaced by the ersatz of an old comic book version I don't care about.

 

For me, Diggle and Felicity were imo Oliver's light all along, therefore they were the show's light all long. And I think that when the EPs hit that "reset button", they unfortunately turned the light off.

 

You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly the problem. The dynamic has changed. It wasn't as noticeable with Roy in 301 (and also because there was a lot going on in the first episode) but add Laurel into the mix and everything went sideways.

 

I really thought the EP's had learned that the core three of Team Arrow is what works the best but I'm starting to realize they either have no clue or they just don't care as long as they eventually get Laurel as BC. Well done for potentially ruining your show just for one character. 

 

Yeah. I'm still bitter today and I haven't even rewatched the episode because there wasn't a single moment I wanted to see again. 

[Pyramid]

I really thought the EP's had learned that the core three of Team Arrow is what works the best but I'm starting to realize they either have no clue or they just don't care as long as they eventually get Laurel as BC. Well done for potentially ruining your show just for one character. 

 

This is what amazes me. Why tank your whole show for the benefit of one character? What are they thinking about? They must be able to see it, surely.

[pootlus]

This is what amazes me. Why tank your whole show for the benefit of one character? What are they thinking about? They must be able to see it, surely.

 

I think that's why people have started speculating that it's contractual - it's just too baffling to be anything other than a legal issue.

 

See, now we're having to fanwank the plotholes in real life as much as we're fanwanking the show.

[Guest]

This is what amazes me. Why tank your whole show for the benefit of one character? What are they thinking about? They must be able to see it, surely.

 

The EP's had a goal when they first started this show and they are refusing to change it, everything else be damned. They're are going to tank all the other characters in the process but as long as they tick that 'Laurel is BC' box then it seems they just don't care. This is often what happens with some writers. They're so attached to an idea that they can't see that it doesn't fit with the current show or characters anymore. Kind of like what happened on HIMYM. 

[Chaser]

It's so frustrating. Nothing about Laurel being the Black Canary makes any sense. The woman is already the DA (BS), she is already fighting within the system. And with Arrow and the Real Canary fighting outside of it, there is no reason to try and move your players.  And sense they have forgotten that she could 'fight' in the first season, they are training a 30 year old from scratch. She would never be at Oliver or Diggle or Roy or Thea's level.  Nice way to honor the Comic Legacy guys.

 

Seriously, can you image if they had killed off Laurel instead? The potential storylines? The attention Arrow would receive from the press for killing off their female lead? Oh the missed opportunities..

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I wish at least one of the TPTB/TIIC had the balls to make the necessary changes to increase enjoyment of Arrow. I wish a woman was sitting in the room who would disagree with  the comic fanboy's ridiculous decisions and show them the error of their ways. I wish a woman associated with the show would ask for more respect for the female characters.

 

As they annihilate Team Arrow and shove Laurel into the role of Black Canary, everything good about the show is changing and not for the better. Oliver is still dickish in his behavior and some of these lessons he should have learned. Instead he's the same idiot who jumped out of a moving car (S1) to be the lone wolf.

What Oliver had with Felicity (outside of Olicity) and Diggle made him human and gave him a likeability which the vacuum known as Laurel sucked right out of the room. He should be beyond this. While I understand his conundrum regarding Diggle and fatherhood, Felicity has been around for two plus years. His "life I lead" speech is yesterday's headline. His world isn't becoming narrower. It's expanding to allow Roy and Laurel to fit. The entire things is BS.

 

Forcing Laurel into the role of BC isn't improving the other characters or the show. A pair of fishnets won't improve Laurel unless she's going to be a hooker as a distraction.Laurel needs more than a mask and a leather jacket. Fight training and a weapon won't make her believable. Laurel could have benefited from death. You can't revamp her again. She's been rebooted and reset too many times. 

[Genki]

I really want Felicity's back story to be fleshed out, I want to meet Mama Smoak, find out the dynamic between mother/daughter and hear more about why her Dad left. [And dare I say it find out there is a bigger story to his leaving them.]

 

I want to hear about her days at MIT and for her to have a friend. (I know the friend thing is difficult because of Arrow duties and the lies she would have to tell, but I want to see the life she has outside the cave, and before Oliver and Diggle. I think Caitlyn Snow would have been a great opportunity as old MIT Classmate. Not besties back then, but knew each other, and could be friends right now. It would alleviate the "lies" conflict since they are both on superhero teams, and won't take over, since separate shows)

 

What I don't want is for all Felicity's development to be related to her love life. 

I found the Felicity to be slightly OOC in E3.02 and it felt like a set up to push her character into Ray's orbit.

I find Ray Super Smarmy. I find their interaction to be a little too forced (trying too hard to sell the screwball comedy, tech nerd connection).

He is a new toy the producers are playing with and I don't want Felicity's journey, to be overshadowed by, or only tied into his.

I resent that there is already talk of hero suit and flashbacks for him.

 

I want more team Arrow  and team arrow related flashbacks, I need them interacting in any combination, to help each other grow, to keep me interested in stories and to lighten then show. They bring the joy [hell  I'll even accept Roy (and hopefully Thea) into the fold if it would keep other outs]

 

Currently I seriously doubt I will get that. Especially with the Forced-Canary storyline.

[quarks]

The compelling part is why I keep watching. My concern is that in one episode, I had three things happen:

 

1. A potential superhero was made to look incompetent at the beginning of her superhero journey.

 

2.  A woman made the understandable and laudable choice to get on with her life - and chose to do it with the man she'd correctly accused of stalking her at the beginning of the episode.

 

3. A third woman was actually stuffed in a fridge.

 

But yes, Arrow is still exciting and compelling television, so I'll keep tuning in.

[wonderwall]

No matter how much Arrow messes up, I'll always keep watching it for these reasons:

1. Felicity Smoak
2. John Diggle
3. Oliver Queen (unless he's being a mega douche or gets back together with Laurel)
4. Felicity Smoak
5. Action
6. Oliver/Felicity (which probably won't even last but I'm still hoping)
7. Team Arrow (the original 3 no one else)
8. Felicity Smoak

Basically if it wasn't for Felicity, I wouldn't even be on this board. 

[Pyramid]

I wish at least one of the TPTB/TIIC had the balls to make the necessary changes to increase enjoyment of Arrow. I wish a woman was sitting in the room who would disagree with  the comic fanboy's ridiculous decisions and show them the error of their ways. I wish a woman associated with the show would ask for more respect for the female characters.

 

It doesn't need to be a woman, it just needs to be a person who isn't an idiot.

[Starfish35]

There are still things I like about Arrow. But at the end of the day, when any show makes me rage this much, it's time to stop watching it and walk away. I'm too angry about how this whole Sara/Laurel thing has been handled to simply just ignore it and watch for the stuff I do like. I'm not that good at compartmentalizing. And I've never been an Olicity fan, so I don't have that to hold me. (I'm not anti-Olicity, to be clear. I've just never cared all that much one way or another.)

It's not the first time. I quit watching Teen Wolf at the end of season two. Smallville at the end of season six. Stargate Atlantis I stuck with until almost the bitter end, and in retrospect that was a mistake. Not one I plan to repeat here. When a TV show is bringing me more stress than enjoyment, it's time to stop.

I'll still get to see Felicity and Original Team Arrow

on Flash, at least a little bit,

without Laurel around to ruin everything. So at least there's that. And I suppose I still have a faint hope that if there is a bad enough reaction to this whole Laurel storyline, they'll cut their losses at the end of the season and ship her off to form an offscreen Birds of Prey team with Huntress and Katana. It's unlikely though, so I'm not going to grit my teeth and cringe through the season on the off chance it might happen.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[doesntworkonwood]

@Starfish35 The Olicity Queen youtube channel uploads all of the Felicity scenes after each episode airs, if that helps :D

[Starfish35]

Awesome. :) Thanks.

[dtissagirl]

I've rage-quit enough shows to totally get where you're coming from, @Starfish35. I'm gonna miss your insights into the show, though. :)

 

I'm not at that point with Arrow yet, but all of my TV watching defense mechanisms are already in place: I'm not watching live anymore, I'm reading full recaps before watching each episode, and, well, I'm making the Bitterness Thread my home.

 

I'm not completely hopeless because I think Felicity's episode, and the crossovers with Flash might hit the tone notes I loved so much in Season 2A, but still, ASSUME CRASH POSITIONS is my motto for Arrow right now.

[wonderwall]

@Starfish35 The Olicity Queen youtube channel uploads all of the Felicity scenes after each episode airs, if that helps :D

Random trivia: Apparently Larry King follows Olicity Queen on youtube. And it's hilarious :P

[writersblock51]

 

I'm not at that point with Arrow yet, but all of my TV watching defense mechanisms are already in place: I'm not watching live anymore, I'm reading full recaps before watching each episode, and, well, I'm making the Bitterness Thread my home.

This is where I'm at for the time being.

 

I am one who had hoped Oliver and Felicity would work out long term, because I think they'd bring out the best in each other. But the spectre of Laurel continues to be the rainy, black cloud looming over them. So I'm not optimistic.

 

Only 1 person out of nearly 10 who I had convinced to watch the show (they had to catch up at some point) is still watching. I still have 3 friends who have been watching from the start who continue to watch. And the show is only being watched 'Live' for 1 of them.

 

Each turned off viewers listed Laurel as the main reason they've stopped watching.  Slade's weak motivation was another strong factor.  And the over all dark tone (and Oliver's never ending losses) was the 3rd- most reason.

[statsgirl]

While I understand the need to have Felicity branch out on her own so that being with Oliver is a choice rather than a fall-back, I don't like that it is being done at the same time as Oliver and Laurel getting closer because of Sara's death, or even at the same time as Laurel getting a big storyline as she starts on her BC journey. It feels like what I watch the show for (Team Arrow) is being petered out.

 

I didn't like it when they did that in 2b last  year, and I'm not looking forward to happening again, especially since I liked Sara.

[Sakura12]

They lost some viewers when Team Arrow got pushed aside for Sara to have more screentime (which was a complete waste now) and people liked her character. Why would then think giving the least liked character more screentime in place of Team Arrow is going to get them more viewers? 

 

That shows me they really have no idea what they are doing or they plan on following the sad footsteps of HIMYM and ruining their show because they can't let go of their original premise. Movies can keep their original ending because they only have 1 or 2 hours to get there, tv shows are on every week for however many years it goes on. Most people are in a different place from where they were 5 years ago, you can't keep the same happening, when things have changed. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm in the same boat, writersblock51. Family members (including Mom and Dad), as well as some friends, stopped watching altogether during the back half of Season 2. Too much of the Lances — and they never really warmed up to Sara (they had problems with the acting more than the character) — and not enough Team Arrow. I only got a few of them back during the hiatus by having them watch the last few eps (from Deathstroke to finale). But now I'm getting the "I'm gonna be out if they keep shoving Laurel down my throat" threat. My mom, who has a rather high tolerance for bad acting, keeps asking me why Laurel is always gasping for breath and is always agitated. She and Dad are sticking around for now, she said, because I told them Diggle and Felicity will be featured a bit more prominently in future eps.

Edited October 19, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[writersblock51]

In the "Sara" episode thread, quarks posted a theory/revelation/observation? that the show seems a bit off in terms of Oliver and Felicity because they haven't gotten back on track (in any manner) after coming to blows in 2 straight episodes.  Every argument they've had in the past has resolved to some degree where they come to terms before the next episode starts.

 

To me, this just compounds the problems that I have with the season's first 2 episodes.  There's been little to no humor as well.  I truly don't know why anyone on the show was touting how season 3 would see Oliver smiling more unless things improve for him very soon.  The show is pretty depressing right now and I'm not optimistic that it will get more balanced anytime soon. 

 

As much as I enjoyed the Dark Knight Trilogy, it is hard for me to watch unless I'm in a certain frame of mind.  Meanwhile, I can watch Cap America: The Winter Soldier anytime.

 

The hero needs to win. The hero needs to smile.  Green Arrow is not and never should be Nolan's Batman.

[calliope1975]

The hero needs to win. The hero needs to smile.  Green Arrow is not and never should be Nolan's Batman.

 

This is my biggest problem with the show. It's becoming a depressing chore to watch. 2B was episode after episode of tearing Oliver down, and it was terrible. Part of my issue with

bringing a kid/knowledge of a kid

into this show is it's going to be one more thing that Oliver loses. It's not fun to watch the hero lose repeatedly. It's not fun to watch Oliver be happy for 55 minutes and then regress him back to where he was in the first season. I don't want to watch an entire season of Oliver longing for Felicity when he's already lost his mother, his father, his sister, Sara, Shado, Slade. For fuck's sake, take your Batman jones and move to Gotham if that's the character you want to write. GA has never been as broody as Batman, nor should he be. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by calliope1975

[KirkB]

I truly don't know why anyone on the show was touting how season 3 would see Oliver smiling more unless things improve for him very soon.

 

Didn't Oliver basically smile more during his date with Felicity than he has these last two seasons? So strictly speaking, season 3 has seen Oliver smiling more, even if he never does again.