S04.E08: Episode 08

[attica]

I approve that the three fellows decided tuning the motel tv to Say Yes to the Dress was on point for their love-is-love cover. That made me snort.

I doubt I can stand another season of non-stop manfeels. Ruth and Maura are the reason I watch. We'll see how this season wraps up.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Will Allison's father try and get that kidney now? I wouldn't be surprised if his wife killed Allison for that reason.

I'm confused - you mean get it from her corpse? That's not possible. All of her organs are damaged beyond use due to her being dead for several days by the time they found her.  He could attempt to see if Joanie is a match but I believe she is too young to donate to an adult (even if Cole would permit it, which I'm sure he wouldn't). So Alison's father is back to at-home dialysis while he waits for a non-relative donor.

[jenifaohjenny]

12 hours ago, Lkw8596 said:

So, in real life she left the show over a salary dispute....on the news today.  She was being paid less than Dominic West. 

I too believe the Ben angle is a red herring...too convenient. 

Season 5 is the last....Vic is dying which will leave  Helen free again.  I bet Noah and Helen get back together as changed people by “the affair”....full circle.  

Good for her - I respect that decision. 

[LilaFowler]

I think Ruth looks rather foolish making a deal out of a pay dispute that she isn't actually certain exists and she's just assuming things. Does she know what Maura Tierney or Joshua Jackson make? They have had comparable screen time since the start of the show.

[Irlandesa]

12 hours ago, Lkw8596 said:

Yes, her discussing the pay disparity goes back to February, at which point she requested to leave the show and they obliged.  That was today’s news.  Google it and lots of sources come up. 

I guess I'm just not finding them.  All I have been able to find so far are articles suggesting a link between the Radio Times interview from Feb and her character's death but suggestion is all they have....I don't see current quotes or even sources saying that's why she left.  Production was already well under way at the time of that interview and she may have already wrapped her scenes if they were front loaded.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Irlandesa

[Lemons]

I think I’m the only one who wasn’t feeling sad or anything.  I never liked her character.    I only feel bad for the small child.  

The whole Ben storyline is weird.  He knew her for six weeks but claims he was willing to give up his fsmily for her?  Why?  

[Chas411]

14 minutes ago, Lemons said:

The whole Ben storyline is weird.  He knew her for six weeks but claims he was willing to give up his fsmily for her?  Why?  

Because she's Alison. No other explanation should be needed....

but yeah it's pretty much the same as Noah back in season one.

[Lozu68]

2 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

I think Ruth looks rather foolish making a deal out of a pay dispute that she isn't actually certain exists and she's just assuming things. Does she know what Maura Tierney or Joshua Jackson make? They have had comparable screen time since the start of the show.

I have seen an interview from maybe 2 years ago  with Maura by Larry King...it’s on YouTube. He asks her point blank if she is paid less than the men on The Affair...she answered “yes.” (but went on to say, she isn’t complaining because she feels incredibly lucky to get paid to do what she does for a living.) 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Lozu68

[Elizzikra]

24 minutes ago, Lozu68 said:

 

2 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

I think Ruth looks rather foolish making a deal out of a pay dispute that she isn't actually certain exists and she's just assuming things. Does she know what Maura Tierney or Joshua Jackson make? They have had comparable screen time since the start of the show.

 

She didn’t know a few months ago but I think she (and her agent) have been in the business long enough to gather facts and make an informed decision. She may not be announcing salaries publicly but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t know what they are.

[LilaFowler]

25 minutes ago, Lozu68 said:

I have seen an interview from maybe 2 years ago  with Maura by Larry King...it’s on YouTube. He asks her point blank if she is paid less than the men on The Affair...she answered “yes.” (but went on to say, she isn’t complaining because she feels incredibly lucky to get paid to do what she does for a living.) 

But she said just recently that she doesn't know for sure what his salary is because they have never discussed it.

[Elizzikra]

5 minutes ago, LilaFowler said:

But she said just recently that she doesn't know for sure what his salary is because they have never discussed it.

Or she does know (not necessarily because he told her but because she or her agent found out) and she just didn’t want to discuss it publicly. 

[WaltersHair]

I've always wondered what the secret arithmetic of Hollywood salaries was all about. Dominic Dunne seems to popup all over the freaking place. Never saw 300 and there he was. And he was on The Wire (brief moment of silence).

I've watched some TV in the past (an obscene amount really) and I don't know Joshua, Maura or Ruth nearly as well. I know them now that I've watched the series for 4 seasons but how well known is The Affair?

I know Gillian Anderson has been low balled for years over The X-files and she finally said enough. Is it because she's female, or not as recognizable as a star in the states?

[bilgistic]

1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

I've always wondered what the secret arithmetic of Hollywood salaries was all about. Dominic Dunne seems to popup all over the freaking place. Never saw 300 and there he was. And he was on The Wire (brief moment of silence).

I've watched some TV in the past (an obscene amount really) and I don't know Joshua, Maura or Ruth nearly as well. I know them now that I've watched the series for 4 seasons but how well known is The Affair?

I know Gillian Anderson has been low balled for years over The X-files and she finally said enough. Is it because she's female, or not as recognizable as a star in the states?

It's the same as in any other industry, and isn't a secret. Men are paid higher than women, period.

Edited August 7, 2018 by bilgistic

[Elizzikra]

2 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Dominic Dunne

Dominic West? Dominic Dunne was a true crime writer but I’m pretty sure he died a few years back...

Maura Tierney has been on Tv since the 80’s. She was on a critically acclaimed show called Newsradio and then in ER for probably a decade. I’d say she is reasonably well-known and well regards. Joshua Jackson was in Dawson’s Creek for about 8 seasons. Not sure what he did right after but again has been working steadily andnis well regarded.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Elizzikra

[WaltersHair]

Quote

IDominic West?

Oops. Yes.  I've tried hard to understand his appeal, but he gets work, so good for him.

Haven't watched anything the others were in except News Radio briefly. I quit the big three networks years ago and never ever watch medical shows. Ever.

[LoveLeigh]

I am sort of angry in terms of how the writers dealt with Ruth Wilson's departure from the series. With only one more season to go, they did not have to kill her off. They could have had her just move away and leave Joanie with Cole and Luisa. Why create so much heartbreak? And I have a feeling the sorrow is going to get a lot worse. 

I have seen many shows where the main character or minor characters die and this just hit me. Maybe it was the way Cole reacted. It just seemed so sad, such a loss.

I think the last time I felt like this was when Quinn died in Homeland. But I did not feel this way when Baz died in Animal Kingdom. Maybe it has to do with the actor's skill and ability to really create a character that we believe actually exists in the real world. 

[yourmomiseasy]

I was shocked, but then thought about it and it wasn't really a shock that Alison would kill herself.  I feel like she already wandered out into the ocean once and Noah or someone had to save her.  It might have been the episode where it was revealed that she was a cutter?  I guess I was more shocked that the show would kill her off and do it off-screen -- granted I think it won't remain off screen.

I hope Luisa sticks around at least for a while because Joanie is going to need a stable parent and I don't know that Cole is going to be able to be that for her for a while.  

[Dminches]

Fortunately most people on this forum have not lost a child but if you had you would know that the concept of Alison never getting over Gabriel’s death and ultimately killing herself despite having another child is very real.  She was broken from the point of Gabriel’s death and it seemed like she was never going to recover.  

[MojitoMama]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

Dominic West? Dominic Dunne was a true crime writer but I’m pretty sure he died a few years back...

Maura Tierney has been on Tv since the 80’s. She was on a critically acclaimed show called Newsradio and then in ER for probably a decade. I’d say she is reasonably well-known and well regards. Joshua Jackson was in Dawson’s Creek for about 8 seasons. Not sure what he did right after but again has been working steadily andnis well regarded.

Joshua Jackson also starred on Fringe. I came to The Affair for him and Maura Tierney (she was great in a recent episode of Black Mirror). Ruth Wilson was a bonus. I had never noticed Dominic West in anything before. Not a fan but that is probably because of the character and not the actor.

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

Dominic West? Dominic Dunne was a true crime writer but I’m pretty sure he died a few years back...

Maura Tierney has been on Tv since the 80’s. She was on a critically acclaimed show called Newsradio and then in ER for probably a decade. I’d say she is reasonably well-known and well regards. Joshua Jackson was in Dawson’s Creek for about 8 seasons. Not sure what he did right after but again has been working steadily andnis well regarded.

 

Joshua was also on Fringe, and he was EXCELLENT.

Edited August 7, 2018 by cardigirl

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I am sort of angry in terms of how the writers dealt with Ruth Wilson's departure from the series. With only one more season to go, they did not have to kill her off. They could have had her just move away and leave Joanie with Cole and Luisa. Why create so much heartbreak? And I have a feeling the sorrow is going to get a lot worse. 

I find it much more believable for Alison to have killed herself than that she would leave Joanie (granted suicide is leaving Joanie, forever and irreparably) but it's different.

Quote

Joshua was also on Fringe, and he was EXCELLENT.

Right! I never watched that one but heard really good things.

[preeya]

4 hours ago, MojitoMama said:

Joshua Jackson also starred on Fringe. I came to The Affair for him and Maura Tierney (she was great in a recent episode of Black Mirror). Ruth Wilson was a bonus. I had never noticed Dominic West in anything before. Not a fan but that is probably because of the character and not the actor.

 

West played a cop (Baltimore detective) in the great series "The Wire"

Edited August 8, 2018 by preeya

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I had never noticed Dominic West in anything before. 

He had a very small part in St. Elmo's fire - he was the boyfriend of Kirby's (Emilio Estevez) crush (played by Andie McDowell). So he's been paying his dues for a long, long time.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Elizzikra

[preeya]

5 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

He had a very small part in St. Elmo's fire - he was the boyfriend of Kirby's (Emilio Estevez) crush (played by Andie McDowell). So he's been paying his dues for a long, long time.

He also played Sandra Bullock's obnoxious boyfriend in 28 Days (2000).

[subina167]

I just now read an article that states Ruth Wilson complained months ago about not getting equal pay as the guys, specifically Dominic West. She wanted out. Can't say I blame her.

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Paramours,

Ruth Wilson had a salary dispute.  While Alison proved this world is killing her, she did not have a salary dispute.  If you want to discuss the salary issue, head on over to Small Talk.  To talk about the actors in other roles, let's go to Cast and Crew in Other Roles.  Otherwise, let's wax poetic about the episode, its highs, its lows, the shock and of course how the heck Anton got his drawers on so quickly at the hotel. He has skills!

[LuvMyShows]

Quote

Also, Ben looked really rough in that scene where Noah and Cole confronted him in his office.  Would that be from mourning someone he knew for only six weeks...and for whom he'd allegedly vowed to leave his wife?  

 

IRL, if these two bullying blustering men stormed into your office demanding answers or they wouldn't leave (or whatever bullying Cole was doing), you would probably not just divulge everything...you'd probably have them removed by security.

Also, the "allegedly" part is important.  We have no idea if it's really true...we only know that he told Cole/Noah that he said that to Allison.

On 8/6/2018 at 9:28 PM, Lsk02 said:

ETA-Well now I rewatched the end of episode 7 and Cole actually calls Noah and Noah answers, so that completely flipped into this episode. Guessing Cole was so exhausted he just has no idea what the details are. 

This was very strange.  Cole made a point of saying to Noah that he would take Noah anywhere as long as Noah drove because he was so exhausted, and we saw Noah get in the driver's seat. Then not too long after that, they had the scene where Cole is driving and crossing over the center line, and Noah insists that they pull over.  But why on earth was Cole driving in the first place, when they made such a show of him saying that Noah needed to drive?

On 8/6/2018 at 10:38 PM, LotusFlower said:

I agree.  That feels too much like Bobby Ewing-in-the-shower-it-was-all-a-dream territory.  

I am from that era, and have made sure to pass the story on to my kids ;-) that Dallas was the first to make this famous and it was a big deal (since it un-did an entire season of plot developments), and other shows now do it basically as mocking.

 

On 8/6/2018 at 5:36 PM, MBayGal said:

From the interview with Treem in the Hollywood Reporter:

"The thing that's always true about The Affair is that it's all coming from perspective. And so in my mind … James didn't necessarily ask Alison for a kidney in this. You just don't know. He's specifically playing a character who is not necessarily the same character as the man that Alison met. That was filtered through her own perspective"

To me, this is a ridiculous statement.  I know this show often shows people recalling things differently, but this goes too far.  Unless they want us to think that Alison is totally psychotic, why would she think he asked her for her kidney if he didn't? 

 

This is beyond ridiculous...it's insulting to the viewers and lazy on the part of the show's creator and writers.  

 

On 8/6/2018 at 7:55 PM, nara said:

re: Anton, I like that we’re seeing the wit and maturity expected of a Princeton hopeful.

OK, party of one apparently, but I don't like the Anton character at all, as he's been written.  It's seems very forced and PC (ooh, look at the prejudiced hotel owner and the rich white woman!), and unrealistically quickly meshed with Cole even though they'd never met.  I don't think that f*ing the hotel girl was mature, but I did like how he had already gotten her digits while Noah was self-importantly giving a Casanova lecture.  I think that Anton's wanting to see the Allison mystery through was nice and all, but Anton had done nothing in the process to help solve the mystery; staying with it rather than heading to Princeton, which is the direction it seemed the plot was headed, is irresponsible as all get out.  It was also weird how long he was gone to take the shower at Otter's house...I thought that was going to be part of the plot, where he did that just so he could snoop and gather clues.  Of course, part of it is that I can't stand that savior Noah is painted as responsible for Anton's remarkable turnaround, both at school and in the home.  Also, I thought that having that person assume that Noah and Cole were married, and Anton their son, was the weirdest conclusion I've ever heard!  Again, seemed very PC, and look-how-clever-and-hip-we-are.

All this being said...episode was riveting, even moreso than usual!

[Milburn Stone]

The reappearance of the Season 1 detective put an idea into my head. Back in Season 1, I remember considering that the different POVs we were seeing were not just (or even mainly) a result of subjective differences--they were visualizations of the stories the principal characters were telling the detective, for their own purposes! That is, in some cases, the POVs may not even have been true to what the characters themselves experienced or believed, but instead were visualizations of what the characters wanted the detective to believe. (Their motive being, as it turned out, to clear themselves of legal responsibility for Scotty's death.) I can't figure out right now if that model would apply to some or all of the POVs we've seen this season, but I wonder.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Dminches]

10 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

IRL, if these two bullying blustering men stormed into your office demanding answers or they wouldn't leave (or whatever bullying Cole was doing), you would probably not just divulge everything...you'd probably have them removed by security.

Also, the "allegedly" part is important.  We have no idea if it's really true...we only know that he told Cole/Noah that he said that to Allison.

This was very strange.  Cole made a point of saying to Noah that he would take Noah anywhere as long as Noah drove because he was so exhausted, and we saw Noah get in the driver's seat. Then not too long after that, they had the scene where Cole is driving and crossing over the center line, and Noah insists that they pull over.  But why on earth was Cole driving in the first place, when they made such a show of him saying that Noah needed to drive?

I am from that era, and have made sure to pass the story on to my kids ;-) that Dallas was the first to make this famous and it was a big deal (since it un-did an entire season of plot developments), and other shows now do it basically as mocking.

 

This is beyond ridiculous...it's insulting to the viewers and lazy on the part of the show's creator and writers.  

I completely agree.  In the first season they often showed the same scene from both perspectives.  They stopped doing that but sometimes they crossed over.  You can't put into question the validity of the facts of a situation if you aren't going to even show the other POV.

[Milburn Stone]

3 minutes ago, Dminches said:

You can't put into question the validity of the facts of a situation if you aren't going to even show the other POV.

I disagree with that heartily. The show from the beginning more than laid the groundwork for how subjective (and out of sync with reality, or someone else's reality) a POV can be. Laid it so thoroughly that even when we now see only one POV of a given set of events, we know to evaluate it skeptically. This is why each POV starts with a title frame containing the name of the character whose subjectivity we're about to see.

[Lemons]

On 8/6/2018 at 5:36 PM, MBayGal said:

From the interview with Treem in the Hollywood Reporter:

"The thing that's always true about The Affair is that it's all coming from perspective. And so in my mind … James didn't necessarily ask Alison for a kidney in this. You just don't know. He's specifically playing a character who is not necessarily the same character as the man that Alison met. That was filtered through her own perspective"

To me, this is a ridiculous statement.  I know this show often shows people recalling things differently, but this goes too far.  Unless they want us to think that Alison is totally psychotic, why would she think he asked her for her kidney if he didn't? 

When Anton said xanax would only kill you if you mixed it too much with alcohol, I thought that was how she would die. 

It might have been that her father told her he was dying unless he gets a new kidney and she interpreted that as the only reason he was trying to contact her after all these years.  

Also, I bet once they get the toxicology report back that they'll be a ton of Xanax and alcohol in her system. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

It was also weird how long he was gone to take the shower at Otter's house

I'm guessing it was a pretty awesome shower. I can spend a half hour in a mediocre one so I can see Anton spending a lot of time using the shower, the steam, maybe taking a swim in the jacuzzi tub...

[bobbyjoe]

If this is a murder mystery, let’s look at the suspects and how their types generally play in most Hollywood murder mysteries:

1) Ben:  Too obvious and usually the first person accused/suspected isn’t guilty

2) Ben’s wife:  zzzzzzzzzzzz.  Not an interesting choice and she’s hardly a character

3) Alison’s Father: likely a red herring. Feels like the kind of character introduced when they need to quickly up the number of suspects

4) Luisa:  Much more likely, and is the kind of not-that-surprising “surprise” reveal that lazier writers go for

5) Athena:  Would be a much better surprise reveal.  We don’t yet know a reason why she might do it, but the father storyline is volatile enough that they might be able to pull off a credible motive or “heat of the moment” accident.

6) Someone from an earlier season, like someone from Cole’s family or whats-his-name, Alison’s former boss.  Only viable if they planned on taking the mystery into next season and bringing these characters back to the viewers attention somehow

7) Someone really out of left field, like Helen or Vik.  Unlikely, and let’s hope not.

If it’s not suicide, my money’s on either 4) or 5).

[Dminches]

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I disagree with that heartily. The show from the beginning more than laid the groundwork for how subjective (and out of sync with reality, or someone else's reality) a POV can be. Laid it so thoroughly that even when we now see only one POV of a given set of events, we know to evaluate it skeptically. This is why each POV starts with a title frame containing the name of the character whose subjectivity we're about to see.

But that means you can never trust that anything you saw actually happened.  

I agree with the other part but you only knew that someone's POV may have been skewed if you saw a 2nd POV.  For something less important than asking for a kidney I agree that a 2nd POV isn't critical.  I just don't see how viewers can understand what's going on if they can't believe anything they are seeing.

Maybe Alison isn't dead and both Noah's and Cole's POV are just sadness at the prospect of missing her....

Edited August 8, 2018 by Dminches

[Double A]

13 minutes ago, Dminches said:

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I disagree with that heartily. The show from the beginning more than laid the groundwork for how subjective (and out of sync with reality, or someone else's reality) a POV can be. Laid it so thoroughly that even when we now see only one POV of a given set of events, we know to evaluate it skeptically. This is why each POV starts with a title frame containing the name of the character whose subjectivity we're about to see.

But that means you can never trust that anything you saw actually happened.  

Exactly. I think that not being able to trust some details and having to remember what POV you are in is part of the ride of the show.  It's the way some people like roller coasters and others can't stand them. This story is not told in a straight line and we are always left questioning wth and wtf.

1 hour ago, bobbyjoe said:

If this is a murder mystery, let’s look at the suspects and how their types generally play in most Hollywood murder mysteries:

1) Ben:  Too obvious and usually the first person accused/suspected isn’t guilty

2) Ben’s wife:  zzzzzzzzzzzz.  Not an interesting choice and she’s hardly a character

3) Alison’s Father: likely a red herring. Feels like the kind of character introduced when they need to quickly up the number of suspects

4) Luisa:  Much more likely, and is the kind of not-that-surprising “surprise” reveal that lazier writers go for

5) Athena:  Would be a much better surprise reveal.  We don’t yet know a reason why she might do it, but the father storyline is volatile enough that they might be able to pull off a credible motive or “heat of the moment” accident.

6) Someone from an earlier season, like someone from Cole’s family or whats-his-name, Alison’s former boss.  Only viable if they planned on taking the mystery into next season and bringing these characters back to the viewers attention somehow

7) Someone really out of left field, like Helen or Vik.  Unlikely, and let’s hope not.

If it’s not suicide, my money’s on either 4) or 5).

A Cherry Lockhart snapped episode didn't make your list?! :) Yep something's up. The show tends to keep a mystery subplot going so I'm with you on the murder tip.

[cardigirl]

I really don't think it's going to be a murder mystery. I'll be very very surprised if it is.

[Elizzikra]

4 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

Someone from an earlier season, like someone from Cole’s family or whats-his-name, Alison’s former boss.  Only viable if they planned on taking the mystery into next season and bringing these characters back to the viewers attention somehow

 I think it’s suicide but if it’s murder, I vote for Cherry avenging Scott’s death and Cole’s broken heart...

[suomi]

Contradictory POVs is an interesting device but I think its potential isn't being realized; after awhile it doesn't satisfy because the truth isn't revealed. After being shown diverging viewpoints, why do the viewers have to decide how Alison was dressed or how she conducted herself? Was Alison frumpy and unsure or was she slinky and confident? Who was pursued and hesitant and who was the pursuer who wouldn't take no for an answer? I can't honestly say, because the writers didn't inform me. It's somewhat comparable to reading a book with conflicting paragraphs and no last chapter. We're all aware that in a legal sense eyewitness accounts are notoriously incorrect, to lesser and greater degrees. These accounts arise from situations where people are jolted by witnessing something unexpected which heightens and also warps awareness. But, hoo boy, the characters on this show conduct their lives in a constant state of unreliable perception and we don't see what really happened. Except for when we do, like when the Lockharts shut down their drug running operation after they found out Oscar dropped a dime. So we should take some scenes/motivations at face value but others depend on _ _ _ _?

Alison's POV regarding meeting her father was extremely well done. His version of early events meshed perfectly with Athena's version and revealed an important, plausible and understandable facet of Athena's psyche. Athena was explained to the viewer's satisfaction and Alison was thrown for a fucking loop and the story was moved along. But, heh heh from the writer's room, maybe that didn't happen. Maybe learning that the man who sired her during a rape and finally contacted her for his own selfish reasons and watching her mother cackle and stew in her own pain while ignoring her daughter's trauma didn't push fragile/ballsy Alison over the edge. Sheesh, these writers give with one hand and take away with the other.

I think it would be more effective if each hour was a mixture of perception and reality, say, 20 minutes of Alison's POV and 20 minutes of Noah's POV and 20 minutes of reality. Or in a 10-episode season the last two episodes would be the truth. Or variations of those time ratios because some plot lines are more important than others. But, jeez, some way, somehow tell us who these people are. Don't keep us guessing. 

[AngelaHunter]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:54 PM, Lemons said:

He knew her for six weeks but claims he was willing to give up his fsmily for her?  Why?  

 

On 8/7/2018 at 1:09 PM, Chas411 said:

Because she's Alison. No other explanation should be needed....

Exactly. Allison, frumpy sadsack, was a siren and her call transfixed every man who met her.

I don't always love or even like this show, but the acting is what keeps me watching. It's beyond reproach.

I just saw this ep tonight even though I caught hints here and what the blurb said, I was still pretty shocked and didn't really expect Allison to die. Unless we see a letter she left for Joanie, I don't believe she killed herself. I was kind of take aback at the cop, to whom it never occured that Alison may have been murdered but not necessarily dead when she entered the water. I can't imagine the police just saying, "There was water in her lungs, therefore she killed herself."

What I couldn't understand was Athena calls Alison's father first with the news? This man she depised and whose existence she denied for 35 - 40 years, who she thought was an evil monster and she calls not Cole, not Noah, but Daddy? Maybe I missed something?

I'm also thinking it's possible Luisa went to Alison's after Cole was out the way (maybe that's why she was so eager to let him go on his "walkabout"- not so she could kill Alison, but give a definite "butt out of our lives" talking to) to confront her about how she ruins everyone's lives and may have killed her in a fit of passion and frustration. She was understandably sick to death of hearing about Alison and talking about her and her problems all the damned time.

2 hours ago, suomi said:

I think it would be more effective if each hour was a mixture of perception and reality, say, 20 minutes of Alison's POV and 20 minutes of Noah's POV and 20 minutes of reality.

Dont' think I'd like 3xthe events, but it would be nice to know what really happened. It's true that we never can be sure of what's real and what's imagined or wishful thinking, etc.

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was kind of take aback at the cop, to whom it never occured that Alison may have been murdered but not necessarily dead when she entered the water.

My impression was that the detective assured Cole and Noah that he had considered that possibility, along with every other. To all the conjectures they made, his response was along the lines of "I didn't just fall off the turnip truck." Now, he could be incompetent, but that's not the vibe he gave me, either in this episode or Season 1. I basically trust that the forensics support suicide as cause of death. That said, we could very well learn otherwise. But to say "it never occurred" to the detective to consider other scenarios doesn't match up with the scene I saw.

As for the phone call Alison's father received--do we know it came from Athena? Maybe we do know this, but I don't recall getting that information. (I could have missed it, though.)

Edited August 9, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[cardigirl]

Athena told Cole that she thought she knew where Alison might have gone, to her father's house.  That is where Cole first learned that Alison had learned who her father was and was the first that Cole and Noah knew who Alison's father was.  That's why they were at his house.  Athena knew they were at Alison's father's house, so when the police called her with the news that they had found Alison's body, and she couldn't get reach either Noah or Cole to tell them (because their phones were in the baskets during lunch), she called the father's house, hoping to reach them there.  And that is why she was telling him the news.  It's not suspicious or mysterious. At least not to me.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I think it would be more effective if each hour was a mixture of perception and reality, say, 20 minutes of Alison's POV and 20 minutes of Noah's POV and 20 minutes of reality. Or in a 10-episode season the last two episodes would be the truth. Or variations of those time ratios because some plot lines are more important than others. But, jeez, some way, somehow tell us who these people are. Don't keep us guessing. 

What would you show for "reality" or "truth?" Isn't the whole point of this show that there is no "reality" or "truth" because every person experiences a given situation in a different way, creating his or her own reality?

Sure there are facts. Alison's skirt is factually x number of inches above her knee. But what difference does it make if Noah perceives it to be short, tight and sexy and Alison perceives it to be loose, disheveled and frumpy? If she perceives herself this way, she wasn't intentionally seductive; Noah perceived Alison the way he did and thus was seduced. Those are the important "facts." It's a frustrating thing about this show - that you never know what "really" happened but I think it's also the fascinating thing. In this way of storytelling, you actually get a more complete version of "truth" because you get it from multiple perceptions.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Elizzikra

[AngelaHunter]

52 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

h either Noah or Cole to tell them (because their phones were in the baskets during lunch), she called the father's house, hoping to reach them there.

Yes, that's the part I forgot (I have a slight memory problem). Thank you!

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Now, he could be incompetent, but that's not the vibe he gave me, either in this episode or Season 1

I don't remember him from Se01. I was just curious how it was possible to tell, by the presence of water in the lungs, whether someone jumped or was thrown in while alive.

[preeya]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

As for the phone call Alison's father received--do we know it came from Athena? Maybe we do know this, but I don't recall getting that information. (I could have missed it, though.)

 

For me, the phone call has always seemed highly suspect. I'm of the belief that it was some sort of a ploy.

[Milburn Stone]

1 minute ago, AngelaHunter said:

I don't remember him from Se01. I was just curious how it was possible to tell, by the presence of water in the lungs, whether someone jumped or was thrown in while alive.

I definitely don't know the answer to that, but TV tells me that detectives know how to figure all that stuff out. :)

@cardigirl, your answer to @AngelaHunter was persuasive as to why Athena would have called Otter with the news--but I'm still missing the part where we know that it was Athena who called Otter with the news. Did he say so to Cole and Noah when he get off the phone? Or did he say "Hi Athena" when he answered the phone? Or did his wife say it was her? All I can remember is that when I watched, I wasn't sure who he was talking to and I don't remember getting the information in the scene.

[Dminches]

2 minutes ago, preeya said:

For me, the phone call has always seemed highly suspect. I'm of the belief that it was some sort of a ploy.

Plus, the fact that the call seemed to indicate that Alison's body was at the morgue would indicate that someone had already identified her.  Why did Cole and Noah have to re-identify her?

[cardigirl]

23 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I definitely don't know the answer to that, but TV tells me that detectives know how to figure all that stuff out. :)

@cardigirl, your answer to @AngelaHunter was persuasive as to why Athena would have called Otter with the news--but I'm still missing the part where we know that it was Athena who called Otter with the news. Did he say so to Cole and Noah when he get off the phone? Or did he say "Hi Athena" when he answered the phone? Or did his wife say it was her? All I can remember is that when I watched, I wasn't sure who he was talking to and I don't remember getting the information in the scene.

I'll have to rewatch, but I thought it was said that Athena was calling and that was why "Otter" (he's just called James in IMBD) took the call, even though there was a no phone call policy during meals at their house. The police had called her to tell her they thought they had found Alison. James kept saying out loud everything she was saying to him, growing more and more horrified. Someone had to go to identify her. That's when Cole threw up.  

 

But I'll have to rewatch to be certain.

Edited August 9, 2018 by cardigirl

[preeya]

13 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I'll have to rewatch, but I thought it was said that Athena was calling and that was why "Otter" (he's just called James in IMBD) took the call, even though there was a no phone call policy during meals at their house. The police had called her to tell her they thought they had found Alison. James kept saying out loud everything she was saying to him, growing more and more horrified. Someone had to go to identify her. That's when Cole threw up.  

 

But I'll have to rewatch to be certain.

The phone call at the father's house seemed to me as phony as a three dollar bill.

The dialog, spoken by the father went like this:

That was Athena.
They found her.

They've... found her body.

She drowned herself.

She's dead.

[cardigirl]

8 minutes ago, preeya said:

The phone call at the father's house seemed to me as phony as a three dollar bill.

The dialog, spoken by the father went like this:

That was Athena.
They found her.

They've... found her body.

She drowned herself.

She's dead.

It's phony because?