BtVS in the Media

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But you see I don't buy that, DB has had huge success post Joss and never said anything?

And? He didn't say anything and he wasn't blacklisted. Perfectly consistent with the idea that it's better to stay silent if you want to have a successful career in Hollywood.

[General Days]

11 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But didn't they abolish the original Bronze because Joss and others fell out with Jeff Pruitt and waged war over the board? I only joined in season 6 and didn't know it was actually The Bronze 2.0

 

No, not at all. Apollo Interactive, the company that administered the original Bronze website, had its contract with The WB. When UPN picked up BtVS for seasons 6 and 7, they developed a new website. They tried to make a "better" website, but by then the Bronze was a real community, and the established users hated the new site (which was horrible).

Fans protested, UPN fixed some of the most blatant issues, but by then it was too late. The established community dispersed, with a good number of them making their home at the Bronze Beta, a clone of the original Bronze (the original was developed by a guy with the handle "TV James," who had just used a simple web guest book-type format as a linear board). Newer fans, like yourself, used the new website, because it was the official one.

Pruitt, however, did lose it on the Bronze back in the day.  Once Ray Fisher's allegations against Whedon became public last year, Pruitt positioned himself as a critic of Joss, but at the time that he lost it on the Bronze, Pruitt seemed to be targeting SMG as much as Whedon.

Pruitt had shared his parable about a Knight (Pruitt is the knight, Sofia is the handmaiden, Joss is the King, SMG is the princess) on the original Bronze, and it utterly vilified SMG.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000619003429/http://www.mcs.net/~jcomroe/Knight.html 

The old Bronze VIP archives no longer work, but I seem to recall that during Pruitt's Bronze meltdown, he mentioned that he'd named the fungus in his toilet after SMG. I don't know the man, but in that moment, he acted like an unprofessional jerk.

Here's an interview with Pruitt from years ago, and he still mostly focused on SMG. https://jtmtzrwjmyrr.tumblr.com/post/54098783410/the-hellmouth-interviews-jeff-pruitt

There's also NOTHING in there about Joss telling Sofia to break up with Pruitt. His story seems to have changed a lot from whatever actually happened - to how he described it years ago - to what he started saying once Ray Fisher came forward.

In my opinion, Pruitt is an opportunist. Were I any of these people (Joss, CC, Ray Fisher), I would have nothing to do with him.

By the way, I like SMG. I didn't share what Pruitt said about her because I believe him (I don't), but because I don't think he's been this voice in the wilderness pushing for some TRUTH ABOUT WHEDON to come out for the past 21 years.

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

She owes no one anything, that's true. Just like we are not obliged to believe such accusations 100% purely on account of Michelle saying so. Besides, using not owing anything to anyone as an argument will hardly work with judges and jury in case Whedon decides to sue MT for defamation.

Being a tyrannical asshole is one thing. But being sexual predator is something completely different. If that's the case, what Whedon did is a criminal offence and he should be prosecuted. The thing is prosecuting any person demands some solid evidence. Accusations alone are not enough to bring anyone to justice. 

Yes, such experience is very traumatizing. But you can't obtain justice (especially when it comes to such serious accusations) by innuendos.

 

You're the one talking judges, juries, and obtaining justice.

We don't know what happened with Joss Whedon and Michelle Trachtenberg. I believe her that something bad happened. I agree that the way she worded her Instagram comments implies some level of sexual impropriety, but she does not say that outright, so we don't know.

If whatever happened to inspire the "Joss can't be alone with Michelle again" rule was not sexual in nature, I wish she'd clarify that. The more time that passes, the more it appears it was sexual in some way, but we cannot know.

If it was sexual in nature, it may not have been assault, or worthy of prosecution but that doesn't mean it wasn't immoral or unethical. Michelle did not even turn 15 until after she started working on BtVS. (She was 14 when season five debuted in September 2000, which means they started shooting over the summer. Michelle turned 15 in October of 2000.)

The fact remains, whatever happened happened to Michelle. It's her story and she does not have to tell it until and unless she is ready.

Edited February 14, 2021 by General Days
typos

[General Days]

 

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But you see I don't buy that, DB has had huge success post Joss and never said anything? Feuds like this aren't unknown on TV, Desperate Housewives, Charlies Angels, Sex and the City etc. 

DB had to settle a harassment claim about 10 years back. He wouldn't be likely to be the "champion" in these current events.

https://www.eonline.com/news/233698/david-boreanaz-settles-absurd-penis-flashing-lawsuit-with-bones-actress

Edited February 14, 2021 by General Days
format problems

[steelyis]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

And I'm exactly the same, sometimes I can look back on events years afterwards and only then appreciate what the social interaction really meant. I developed a great distrust of people because in my viewpoint folks who you thought you were friendly with would so often turn on you and attack you for no reason. Now I realise I probably offended them without realising it. Also made you easy prey for bullies who could string you along without you realising it forever. I think one of the appeals of Buffy (and Glee) is that it was about a group of outsiders who looked out for one another but that is (literally) a fantasy, in my experience no one ever helped you, they would often sympathise with the attackers because they simply couldn't relate. .   

This sounds sadly all too familiar.

[Evie]

1 hour ago, General Days said:

 

DB had to settle a harassment claim about 10 years back. He wouldn't be likely to be the "champion" in these current events.

https://www.eonline.com/news/233698/david-boreanaz-settles-absurd-penis-flashing-lawsuit-with-bones-actress

I was going to say, if I were DB I would keep my mouth shut right now because there is plenty of dirt out there about him. He seemed to think it was funny when the Buffy cast revealed that he liked to get naked on set, but I wonder how the cast and crew really felt. 

[buffynut]

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But didn't they abolish the original Bronze because Joss and others fell out with Jeff Pruitt and waged war over the board? I only joined in season 6 and didn't know it was actually The Bronze 2.0

I was going to reply and say I don't remember much about what happened to The Bronze, but then read General Days post which reminded me of some things, such as the site being own by the WB.   I just remember in those early years (seasons 2 and 3) it was cool seeing posts from the show runner, stunt coordinator and writers.  Remember, this was way before Twitter and other social media sites, so having the BTS folks participate and share tidbits about the show with us fans was a big deal.

 

2 hours ago, General Days said:

Pruitt had shared his parable about a Knight (Pruitt is the knight, Sofia is the handmaiden, Joss is the King, SMG is the princess) on the original Bronze, and it utterly vilified SMG.

Oh, yeah, I remember his parable. Hmmm...

[General Days]

On 2/14/2021 at 11:35 AM, Evie said:

I was going to say, if I were DB I would keep my mouth shut right now because there is plenty of dirt out there about him. He seemed to think it was funny when the Buffy cast revealed that he liked to get naked on set, but I wonder how the cast and crew really felt. 

I was afraid I was the only one who remembered the stories of pantless/naked DB on the set.

Setting aside the settled harassment case, this is what I think of that.

With the except of ASH and KS, the original main cast was young and/or inexperienced. Even the older young cast members (CC, DB, NB) had not done much TV. In that place and time, I think DB could have dropped trou on the set, and thought he was just being funny, and the rest of the cast laughed either because they thought it was funny too, or because they were nervous about it,  or because they didn't want to be the humorless jerk on set. 

That kind of behavior is inappropriate and unprofessional. It shouldn't happen on set. A smart showrunner would have shut it down the first time and put the fear of God in him. Even if everyone acted like they thought it was funny, the smart showrunner would have said, "I've got a lot of young women working this set, and even if they're laughing, it's unprofessional, and someday, you're going to do it in front of the wrong person. Don't do it again, or you're fired."

That Whedon didn't shut it down, and that he frequently raved about what a funny man DB was, tells me something about Whedon as a showrunner. It also tells me something about the atmosphere on his sets.

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by General Days
typo: corrected "and/or experienced" to "and/or inexperienced"

[ruby24]

I didn't know about that DB lawsuit, but I do remember hearing something about his weird, inappropriate prank like behavior on set in the past. Hmmm. No wonder he hasn't said anything.

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Joss wrote Cordelia off the show by having her fall into a coma, wake up for an episode which was to originally have Buffy appear in, not her, then die off-screen (after reportedly telling CC her character would not have been killed off).

JMS wrote Michael O'Hare's character off the show by having his character do important stuff off-screen which affected the present narrative of the show, then brought him back for a send-off where he goes back in time, becomes an important historical war hero who helps save the galaxy while also becoming a benign leader and figurehead for an alien race.

Not sure one could argue that Cordelia had the better ending.

If nothing else, that incident showed how much of an ass Joss is by comparison, as JMS worked as much as he could with O'Hare, who as you said, had REAL mental problems, to keep him around as much as possible before both JMS and O'Hare came to an amicable conclusion that keeping O'Hare would be detrimental to the show long term. JMS had to alter many of the plans he had for the show, which had only completed it's first year, to deal with O'Hare's absence.

Meanwhile, Joss decided to punish an actress for getting pregnant and eventually firing her.

Yes, it's possible when she later finds out the joke is not a joke at all, but possible symptoms of a misogynistic attitude.

Others have pointed out the fallacy of this statement, but again, there are many reasons for that which others have spelt out far more eloquently than I can.

Which one does not do by creating a toxic work environment among their subordinates.

Why does she need to drop something that was traumatic to her, something which still affects her to this day? Not everyone can deal with trauma by just getting over it.

Also, many people care if it is a 'minority' actor, because as we have discussed before, they are at as much of a disadvantage as non-minority women when it comes to having their views dismissed or being labeled as "difficult to work with" when they try to assert their rights. And for those same reasons they can be seen as an easy victim for people who like to abuse their power.

As others have pointed out, he fought against her casting, it was thanks to Marti Noxon who fought for her to be cast in the role.

Many of the people who are speaking now haven't said anything previously as well. But now they are. Sometimes it takes one person to get the ball rolling.

Also, DB remaining silent isn't the best argument to use to try and discredit what all of the others have said.

I would say it isn't arguable. At all.

Also, Weinstein wasn't a womaniser, he is a straight up rapist.

Calling multiple pregnant woman fat and asking one woman who you knew had suffered previous miscarriages if she wanted to keep the baby isn't a sign of missed or misreading social cues or being socially awkward, it's a sign of being a malicious asshole.

The only signs he exhibits is of being a misogynistic egotistical asshole who creates toxic work environments and pits his actors against one another, while trying to hide behind a shield of brand feminism.

Anya is a fictional character who spent centuries as a demon whose main interactions with humans was to grant revenge wishes, which explains why she was socially inappropriate.

Joss is a real life asshole, who isn't a literal demon but with each revelation sounds like more and more of a figurative one.

Again, mostly supposition, I think it's too early to simply say that he was a 'misogynistic egotistical asshole who create toxic work environments'? 

[Hiyo]

If anything, I think we've waited long enough to say it.

Also, between Charisma, Amber, Ray, SMG, Emma Caulfield, Michelle Trachtenberg, Jason Momoa, Marti Noxon, Jose Molina...I think we're past the point of "where there is smoke, there is fire" and into full-on there was a raging inferno situation.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Hiyo

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, General Days said:

I was afraid I was the only one who remembered the stories of pantless/naked DB on the set.

Setting aside the settled harassment case, this is what I think of that.

With the except of ASH and KS, the original main cast was young and/or experienced. Even the older young cast members (CC, DB, NB) had not done much TV. In that place and time, I think DB could have dropped trou on the set, and thought he was just being funny, and the rest of the cast laughed either because they thought it was funny too, or because they were nervous about it,  or because they didn't want to be the humorless jerk on set. 

That kind of behavior is inappropriate and unprofessional. It shouldn't happen on set. A smart showrunner would have shut it down the first time and put the fear of God in him. Even if everyone acted like they thought it was funny, the smart showrunner would have said, "I've got a lot of young women working this set, and even if they're laughing, it's unprofessional, and someday, you're going to do it in front of the wrong person. Don't do it again, or you're fired."

That Whedon didn't shut it down, and that he frequently raved about what a funny man DB was, tells me something about Whedon as a showrunner. It also tells me something about the atmosphere on his sets.

 

Or it shows that it was a fun place to work but you can't have that anymore because people take offence at EVERYTHING, the BSG girls did something similar to Hatch and Benedict in the Triad ep

[Hiyo]

Quote

Or it shows that it was a fun place to work but you can't have that anymore because people take offence at EVERYTHING

No, it just shows that people in the past did not speak out for fear or reprisal, but are finding their own voices now.

Not wanting to see a co-worker's balony pony doesn't make you an uptight prude who gets offended at everything, btw. Hell I'm a gay man and I don't want to see that.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, General Days said:

No, not at all. Apollo Interactive, the company that administered the original Bronze website, had its contract with The WB. When UPN picked up BtVS for seasons 6 and 7, they developed a new website. They tried to make a "better" website, but by then the Bronze was a real community, and the established users hated the new site (which was horrible).

Fans protested, UPN fixed some of the most blatant issues, but by then it was too late. The established community dispersed, with a good number of them making their home at the Bronze Beta, a clone of the original Bronze (the original was developed by a guy with the handle "TV James," who had just used a simple web guest book-type format as a linear board). Newer fans, like yourself, used the new website, because it was the official one.

Pruitt, however, did lose it on the Bronze back in the day.  Once Ray Fisher's allegations against Whedon became public last year, Pruitt positioned himself as a critic of Joss, but at the time that he lost it on the Bronze, Pruitt seemed to be targeting SMG as much as Whedon.

Pruitt had shared his parable about a Knight (Pruitt is the knight, Sofia is the handmaiden, Joss is the King, SMG is the princess) on the original Bronze, and it utterly vilified SMG.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000619003429/http://www.mcs.net/~jcomroe/Knight.html 

The old Bronze VIP archives no longer work, but I seem to recall that during Pruitt's Bronze meltdown, he mentioned that he'd named the fungus in his toilet after SMG. I don't know the man, but in that moment, he acted like an unprofessional jerk.

Here's an interview with Pruitt from years ago, and he still mostly focused on SMG. https://jtmtzrwjmyrr.tumblr.com/post/54098783410/the-hellmouth-interviews-jeff-pruitt

There's also NOTHING in there about Joss telling Sofia to break up with Pruitt. His story seems to have changed a lot from whatever actually happened - to how he described it years ago - to what he started saying once Ray Fisher came forward.

In my opinion, Pruitt is an opportunist. Were I any of these people (Joss, CC, Ray Fisher), I would have nothing to do with him.

By the way, I like SMG. I didn't share what Pruitt said about her because I believe him (I don't), but because I don't think he's been this voice in the wilderness pushing for some TRUTH ABOUT WHEDON to come out for the past 21 years.

 

You're the one talking judges, juries, and obtaining justice.

We don't know what happened with Joss Whedon and Michelle Trachtenberg. I believe her that something bad happened. I agree that the way she worded her Instagram comments implies some level of sexual impropriety, but she does not say that outright, so we don't know.

If whatever happened to inspire the "Joss can't be alone with Michelle again" rule was not sexual in nature, I wish she'd clarify that. The more time that passes, the more it appears it was sexual in some way, but we cannot know.

If it was sexual in nature, it may not have been assault, or worthy of prosecution but that doesn't mean it wasn't immoral or unethical. Michelle did not even turn 15 until after she started working on BtVS. (She was 14 when season five debuted in September 2000, which means they started shooting over the summer. Michelle turned 15 in October of 2000.)

The fact remains, whatever happened happened to Michelle. It's her story and she does not have to tell it until and unless she is ready.

Never knew that about the Bronze. I wonder if the Michelle thing was just Joss had had affairs with the female cast members before (as he admitted in his letter to his wife upon their divorce) and people were concerned MT would do the same as she reached adulthood, turning 18 by the final season. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

and people were concerned MT would do the same as she reached adulthood, turning 18 by the final season. 

Because all women are horny and have an undeniable urge to sleep around with their bosses/co-workers?

[Gigi43]

David and Charisma had an exchange on twitter yesterday in the replies section of her post. 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Gigi43

[Joe Hellandback]

19 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Because all women are horny and have an undeniable urge to sleep around with their bosses/co-workers?

Well some obviously had on Buffy? As Kissinger said, power is an aphrodisiac. I've often thought Buffy is an ephebophile's fantasy, handsome older man Giles surrounded by a gaggle of adoring teenage girls who quite literally call him daddy. Rupert had a lot of female admirers and Guffy was pretty popular in fanfic.  

Edited February 15, 2021 by Joe Hellandback
Kissinger quote.

[Hiyo]

But that still doesn't mean MT had to be kept away from Joss until she turned 18.

It seems like the problem isn't how Joss relates to women, but rather MT wouldn't be able to control her lust for Joss until she turns 18, which seems more of a way to excuse Joss's skeezy behavior.

Quote

handsome older man Giles surrounded by a gaggle of adoring teenage girls who quite literally call him daddy

Were any of them lusting after him on-screen?

[Joe Hellandback]

Just now, Hiyo said:

But that still doesn't mean MT had to be kept away from Joss until she turned 18.

It seems like the problem isn't how Joss relates to women, but rather MT wouldn't be able to control her lust for Joss until she turns 18, which seems more of a way to excuse Joss's skeezy behavior.

Were any of them lusting after him on-screen?

Willow did, even Tara and Anya seemed pretty keen on him in 'The episode with the haunted frat house whose name escapes me at the moment'. As for MT/Joss that would have probably been a disastrous relationship for both of them. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

As for MT/Joss that would have probably been a disastrous relationship for both of them. 

I would hope so. For many, many reasons.

[lembergwatcher]

20 hours ago, General Days said:

If whatever happened to inspire the "Joss can't be alone with Michelle again" rule

Emphasis on the word rule. If there was a rule of not leaving Joss alone with Michelle, then the thing (whatever it was) wasn't just a "dirty little secret" between JW & MT, i.e. other people on the set were familiar with the situation... And yet no one did a damn thing about it. I know the whole situation speaks volumes about Joss, but it also reveals something not quite good about other people involved. 

What if Joss is the one who gets done simply because other people from cast and crew want us to forget they were there and looked the other way?

Btw, does anyone remember a rumor circulating out there for some time regarding Nic Brendon's absense during Buffy's cast 2017 reunion? I mean all those speculations that female cast won't feel safe around him due to Brendon's run-ins with his girlfriends and the law? Turns out it isn't Nic female part of the cast has to worry about... 

[Future Cat Lady]

7 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Emphasis on the word rule. If there was a rule of not leaving Joss alone with Michelle, then the thing (whatever it was) wasn't just a "dirty little secret" between JW & MT, i.e. other people on the set were familiar with the situation... And yet no one did a damn thing about it. I know the whole situation speaks volumes about Joss, but it also reveals something not quite good about other people involved. 

What if Joss is the one who gets done simply because other people from cast and crew want us to forget they were there and looked the other way?

Btw, does anyone remember a rumor circulating out there for some time regarding Nic Brendon's absense during Buffy's cast 2017 reunion? I mean all those speculations that female cast won't feel safe around him due to Brendon's run-ins with his girlfriends and the law? Turns out it isn't Nic female part of the cast has to worry about... 

I think the rumor (or maybe NB said it) is that David asked that NB not be there. The reason why is a mystery.

[Gigi43]

3 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I think the rumor (or maybe NB said it) is that David asked that NB not be there. The reason why is a mystery.

 

Was that the one for EW when he only did an interview part separate with Emma? I don't know why SMG or AH wouldn't sit next to him for some of that to make it seem less like it was only Emma who would be near him, if it was only David but who knows its possible. I know Xander/Anya were the relationship but AH and/or SMG could have been there as the core if they had no problem with him. He was on set for the group photo shoot with everyone (unless it was photoshopped and he shot it separate.) There was an AH/AB/SG group pic and the Summers women but no AH/SMG/NB, which I found odd, since he seemed to be there for the group shot, but then again maybe fitting since the characters barely seemed to be friends the last seasons. 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Gigi43

[whiporee]

Just because it's a part of this conversation, what do you think defines a "toxic work environment?" 

I think that's the missing part of these discussions. Because it sounds really bad, but since we don't have a universal definition of the term, I think we end up with differing opinions of how bad they can be. What would you call a toxic environment? 

[Joe Hellandback]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Emphasis on the word rule. If there was a rule of not leaving Joss alone with Michelle, then the thing (whatever it was) wasn't just a "dirty little secret" between JW & MT, i.e. other people on the set were familiar with the situation... And yet no one did a damn thing about it. I know the whole situation speaks volumes about Joss, but it also reveals something not quite good about other people involved. 

What if Joss is the one who gets done simply because other people from cast and crew want us to forget they were there and looked the other way?

Btw, does anyone remember a rumor circulating out there for some time regarding Nic Brendon's absense during Buffy's cast 2017 reunion? I mean all those speculations that female cast won't feel safe around him due to Brendon's run-ins with his girlfriends and the law? Turns out it isn't Nic female part of the cast has to worry about... 

I thought he was there?

Entertainment Weekly Cast Reunions: Buffy the Vampire Slayer - YouTube

That was back in his hellraising days but he's been sober for years as has ED. I know DB got grief for cheating on his wife, Tiger Woods style. 

1 hour ago, Gigi43 said:

 

Was that the one for EW when he only did an interview part separate with Emma? I don't know why SMG or AH wouldn't sit next to him for some of that to make it seem less like it was only Emma who would be near him, if it was only David but who knows its possible. I know Xander/Anya were the relationship but AH and/or SMG could have been there as the core if they had no problem with him. He was on set for the group photo shoot with everyone (unless it was photoshopped and he shot it separate.) There was an AH/AB/SG group pic and the Summers women but no AH/SMG/NB, which I found odd, since he seemed to be there for the group shot, but then again maybe fitting since the characters barely seemed to be friends the last seasons. 

 

 

I think that might be exaggerated, if you look at the pics he's there with the rest of them. 

5 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Just because it's a part of this conversation, what do you think defines a "toxic work environment?" 

I think that's the missing part of these discussions. Because it sounds really bad, but since we don't have a universal definition of the term, I think we end up with differing opinions of how bad they can be. What would you call a toxic environment? 

I would define it as oppressive and hostile where people feel victimised and mistreated. However I would not define it just as a place where you get shouted at etc, it takes more than that. 

[illdoc]

https://tvline.com/2021/02/15/david-boreanaz-charisma-carpenter-buffy-angel-joss-whedon-controversy/

[whiporee]

27 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I would define it as oppressive and hostile where people feel victimised and mistreated. However I would not define it just as a place where you get shouted at etc, it takes more than that. 

I think that's a good staring point, but it still leaves lots of grey areas. What constitutes victimizing and mistreating? Is a director who yells at a PA about a latte victimizing or mistreating? Is a director who constantly criticizes an actor's performance, or calls for take after take after take, mistreating the cast to crew? is it matter of not getting more lines, or having your ideas implemented (or discarded), late night hours? We all have different definitions of what it means to offer or show respect. Is it listening to complaints, but then ignoring them or being unwilling to change a management/leadership style? 

Is making off-color jokes toxic? Is cursing toxic to someone who abhors cursing? Political or social commentary? Is a head writer being toxic by not patiently listening to a fourth-week PA's ideas, or by mocking a senior writer's script in front of the team? Whats if it's a brainstorming sessions where everything goes tossed out, talked about and thrown away?

What would you consider toxic as an employee? Is that different than what you'd consider toxic as a manger?

[steelyis]

43 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Just because it's a part of this conversation, what do you think defines a "toxic work environment?" 

I think that's the missing part of these discussions. Because it sounds really bad, but since we don't have a universal definition of the term, I think we end up with differing opinions of how bad they can be. What would you call a toxic environment? 

The obvious stuff is obvious, like verbal, physical, and sexual abuse. Ultimately, though, I think it begins and ends with a lack of professionalism. When that professionalism collapses, or was never there to begin with, as seems to be the case with the Buffy and Angel sets, that's when a work place is toxic.

[Macbeth]

On 2/14/2021 at 10:01 AM, General Days said:

 

Never mind.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Macbeth

[Macbeth]

It's nice to see DB come out in support of CC.  

I didn't expect it at all given his past.

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

It's nice to see DB come out in support of CC.  

I didn't expect it at all given his past.

I actually did.   Despite his checkered past he's always seemed to be very close with his cast mates.   Him, Cc and GQ were very close and he's close with Emily Deschanel.   Also he's never been one of joss' favourites despite the spinoff.   He's not one of the ones (Amy, Summer,  Aly and Alexis)  that get invited to Shakespeare readings,  he was just a hot,  broody vehicle for a show that was a sure hit.   I have no doubts that he'd be protective of his cast,  show leads usually are and David still has a thriving career and I'd imagine absolutely no plans to return to his Angel role. 

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, whiporee said:

I think that's a good staring point, but it still leaves lots of grey areas. What constitutes victimizing and mistreating? Is a director who yells at a PA about a latte victimizing or mistreating? Is a director who constantly criticizes an actor's performance, or calls for take after take after take, mistreating the cast to crew? is it matter of not getting more lines, or having your ideas implemented (or discarded), late night hours? We all have different definitions of what it means to offer or show respect. Is it listening to complaints, but then ignoring them or being unwilling to change a management/leadership style? 

Is making off-color jokes toxic? Is cursing toxic to someone who abhors cursing? Political or social commentary? Is a head writer being toxic by not patiently listening to a fourth-week PA's ideas, or by mocking a senior writer's script in front of the team? Whats if it's a brainstorming sessions where everything goes tossed out, talked about and thrown away?

What would you consider toxic as an employee? Is that different than what you'd consider toxic as a manger?

This would be virtually every director in history, Stanley Kubrick, James Cameron, Hitchcock, Charlie Chaplin. On the show 'Buffy the Weekend Slayer' where everyone was sleep deprived and under enormous pressure, it wouldn't be wrong to be a hard taskmaster with the cast and crew, be Perry Cox, not Gunny Hartman.  

8 hours ago, Macbeth said:

It's nice to see DB come out in support of CC.  

I didn't expect it at all given his past.

What do you mean? His affairs?

[Hiyo]

Quote

This would be virtually every director in history, Stanley Kubrick, James Cameron, Hitchcock, Charlie Chaplin. On the show 'Buffy the Weekend Slayer' where everyone was sleep deprived and under enormous pressure, it wouldn't be wrong to be a hard taskmaster with the cast and crew, be Perry Cox, not Gunny Hartman.  

Did all of those people insult their actors, create a toxic work environment, play favorites, pits actors against each other, etc? Because if so, it makes them look like assholes, it doesn't really excuse what Whedon.

Then again, the whole "other people did it as well therefore it should be ok when this person did it!" argument never carried much weight with me.

[whiporee]

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Did all of those people insult their actors, create a toxic work environment, play favorites, pits actors against each other, etc? Because if so, it makes them look like assholes, it doesn't really excuse what Whedon.

I don' think he was defending as much as answering what he was considering a "toxic environment." What do you consider a toxic workplace?

[Hiyo]

Basically, everything that has been revealed about Joss Whedon so far counts towards creating a toxic work environment.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Hiyo

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Did all of those people insult their actors, create a toxic work environment, play favorites, pits actors against each other, etc? Because if so, it makes them look like assholes, it doesn't really excuse what Whedon.

Then again, the whole "other people did it as well therefore it should be ok when this person did it!" argument never carried much weight with me.

I disagree, sometimes you have to be harsh to achieve great things, Dr Perry Cox rather than Gunny Hartman

5 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Basically, everything that has been revealed about Joss Whedon so far counts towards creating a toxic work environment.

Then why did everyone keep working with him and praise him all this time? This is beginning to remind me of the end of Empty Places

[Hiyo]

Not necessarily. There are so many people who have achieved greatness without being harsh.

If the only way to achieve that is by acting like an asshole, then chances are you really are an asshole.

[Chaos Theory]

The more I hear about Joss Whedon the sadder it makes me.  Buffy and Angel came out in a defining time in my life and they just made it better for me so to hear that it was a toxic work environment just makes me really really sad.    Add to that the Cordelia Chase story was just a long standing storyline and to confirm it ended because of nothing more then misogyny....i hate to use the word "sad" again but that's what it is....just sad.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Gigi43]

Nicholas Brendon could have just left it as "I'm having spine surgery", or said absolutely nothing.... but no, of course not. now we know he's sitting down on the bowl.  I'm not even mad this is the headline they went with instead of spine surgery because he walked right into it with the details.

 

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2562970/buffy-star-wont-comment-on-joss-whedon-until-surgery-for-penis-paralysis-is-complete

Edited February 17, 2021 by Gigi43

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, Gigi43 said:

Nicholas Brendon could have just left it as "I'm having spine surgery", or said absolutely nothing.... but no, of course not. now we know he's sitting down on the bowl.  I'm not even mad this is the headline they went with instead of spine surgery because he walked right into it with the details.

 

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2562970/buffy-star-wont-comment-on-joss-whedon-until-surgery-for-penis-paralysis-is-complete

I saw a post from him about the "spine surgery" and then an article with his (non-)statement as it relates to CC's allegations. Then, reading the article you posted, I felt compelled to watch the video to confirm that the article itself wasn't fake news.

Barring a deep fake video...not fake news. But wow.

I am curious as to what his statement will say. I am finding it interesting hearing the different levels of detail the different cast members are willing to go into.

I'm especially interested to hear what Alyson Hannigan says. I suspect she had a different experience on the show than CC, but so did others (AA, ASH, DB, etc), and that doesn't preclude them from offering support to their castmate. I know her and her husband are very close with Joss, but I think they - and especially her - will have to say something.

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, Gigi43 said:

Nicholas Brendon could have just left it as "I'm having spine surgery", or said absolutely nothing.... but no, of course not. now we know he's sitting down on the bowl.  I'm not even mad this is the headline they went with instead of spine surgery because he walked right into it with the details.

 

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2562970/buffy-star-wont-comment-on-joss-whedon-until-surgery-for-penis-paralysis-is-complete

To be fair if everyone wasn't pressing every major cast member to come out and give a comment, then no one would be interested in NB right now. I mean, people are really on him to say something regardless of his condition, so I feel like it's his right to, ahem, let it all hang out right now.

Not gonna lie: I could have lived my whole life not knowing what his surgery was for.

[kieyra]

The “just a joke” defense reminds me of this recent gem from the gaming community:

https://mobile.twitter.com/negaoryx/status/1354147400160403457

[secnarf]

9 minutes ago, kieyra said:

The “just a joke” defense reminds me of this recent gem from the gaming community:

https://mobile.twitter.com/negaoryx/status/1354147400160403457

Oh it's not a defense - it's a pathetic excuse that some people make because they themselves treat women with the same disrespect Joss seemed to show, and don't feel there is anything wrong with it. They may even find it funny.

There is some really disturbing stuff online - from allegations against JW and from people defending him.

That video makes me sad too - sad that it is necessary. Sad that casual sexual harrassment is rampant. Sad that so many people think it is funny. Sad that so many others are resigned to it as just a part of life.

As this whole story is coming out, my younger sister has finished her schooling and is entering this industry, starting her first job on the set of a well-known TV show next week. It makes me quite concerned for her.

 

 

[roctavia]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Then why did everyone keep working with him and praise him all this time? This is beginning to remind me of the end of Empty Places

But a lot of people didn't keep working with him... After Buffy/Angel, CC, DB, SMG and many others didn't ever work with him again.  He clearly has his favorites, which are probably the people he didn't treat like shit, or the people that wanted the job/attention enough that they put up with it so they keep working with him, but a lot of big names have never worked with him again. 

There is even an old interview with SMG's husband around the time the show was ending where he talked about how she wasn't going to continue the show because the environment was so unpleasant... There was also talk about how she had to announce publicly she wasn't going to do another season so they couldn't badger her into continue working.  Her statement on this without saying much, says a lot. 

I'm sure some of the praise was also for the same reasons Ray Fisher praised him at Comic Con- it was part of the job, Ray was still on the pay roll and had to make nice in front of the crowds so he couldn't actually speak the truth. An up and coming actress wouldn't compromise her career by saying it was a horrible experience to work with Joss. And he was smart enough to not abuse the people like ASH who wouldn't fear his 'power' over the industry.

[Joe Hellandback]

13 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Not necessarily. There are so many people who have achieved greatness without being harsh.

If the only way to achieve that is by acting like an asshole, then chances are you really are an asshole.

Or a hard taskmaster who pushes themselves and others to excel?

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The more I hear about Joss Whedon the sadder it makes me.  Buffy and Angel came out in a defining time in my life and they just made it better for me so to hear that it was a toxic work environment just makes me really really sad.    Add to that the Cordelia Chase story was just a long standing storyline and to confirm it ended because of nothing more then misogyny....i hate to use the word "sad" again but that's what it is....just sad.

Don't let it spoil it for you, there was no misogyny, Tim Minnear said Joss practically cried when CC told him the news for the disaster it meant for the show. Plenty of great shows, DH, CA, Mash had behind the scenes ructions (ironically everyone adored Larry Linville and hated Gary Burghoff) but that doesn't mean you shouldn't still enjoy them. 

[Joe Hellandback]

5 hours ago, roctavia said:

But a lot of people didn't keep working with him... After Buffy/Angel, CC, DB, SMG and many others didn't ever work with him again.  He clearly has his favorites, which are probably the people he didn't treat like shit, or the people that wanted the job/attention enough that they put up with it so they keep working with him, but a lot of big names have never worked with him again. 

There is even an old interview with SMG's husband around the time the show was ending where he talked about how she wasn't going to continue the show because the environment was so unpleasant... There was also talk about how she had to announce publicly she wasn't going to do another season so they couldn't badger her into continue working.  Her statement on this without saying much, says a lot. 

I'm sure some of the praise was also for the same reasons Ray Fisher praised him at Comic Con- it was part of the job, Ray was still on the pay roll and had to make nice in front of the crowds so he couldn't actually speak the truth. An up and coming actress wouldn't compromise her career by saying it was a horrible experience to work with Joss. And he was smart enough to not abuse the people like ASH who wouldn't fear his 'power' over the industry.

Again you're reading into this, Buffy left SMG constantly exhausted and often injured, that may be more what he was referring to. 

8 hours ago, steelyis said:

To be fair if everyone wasn't pressing every major cast member to come out and give a comment, then no one would be interested in NB right now. I mean, people are really on him to say something regardless of his condition, so I feel like it's his right to, ahem, let it all hang out right now.

Not gonna lie: I could have lived my whole life not knowing what his surgery was for.

God, poor Nick doesn't have much luck, does he? 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Or a hard taskmaster who pushes themselves and others to excel?

I'm sure there are ways to do that without asking you female employees point blank if they plan on aborting their babies? Or any of the other dickish moves he seems to have done.

Quote

there was no misogyny, Tim Minnear said Joss practically cried when CC told him the news for the disaster it meant for the show

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

6 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

I'm sure there are ways to do that without asking you female employees point blank if they plan on aborting their babies? Or any of the other dickish moves he seems to have done.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Is it really? It's not like he was telling her to do it, he just needed to know because the show and the jobs of hundreds of employees depended on her answer. Honestly I think people are missing the obvious here, to even get a season 5 Joss had to cut costs and boost ratings. The obvious way to do that was to bring Spike over from Buffy but then you need to pay him. The obvious solution was to ditch the eternally unpopular Connor and new mother CC as regular characters. I don't blame CC for being sore but this is the same as GQ, they had to fire him for the sake of the show even though it arguably killed him.  

[Hiyo]

Quote

Is it really?

Yes, really.

Quote

It's not like he was telling her to do it, he just needed to know because the show and the jobs of hundreds of employees depended on her answer.

Given the fact that she had a previous miscarriage or two before - which he knew about - him asking if she wanted to abort the baby was just pure rudeness and rather disgusting.

Quote

Honestly I think people are missing the obvious here, to even get a season 5 Joss had to cut costs and boost ratings

I think people are missing the obvious that he could have done all of that without acting like a complete and utter hamster prick. And people are also missing that others who worked with him, like Ray Fisher, Amber Benson, have pointed out how much of a toxic work environment were on his sets. The fact that Amber, who only joined the cast AFTER CC left to go work on Angel, mentions how toxic things were just shows how Joss Whedon enabling a toxic work environment has nothing to do with CC or him trying to save his show or whatever.

Quote

I don't blame CC for being sore but this is the same as GQ, they had to fire him for the sake of the show even though it arguably killed him.

Are we really going to start comparing pregnant women to drug addicts now?

Edited February 17, 2021 by Hiyo

[roctavia]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Is it really? It's not like he was telling her to do it, he just needed to know because the show and the jobs of hundreds of employees depended on her answer. Honestly I think people are missing the obvious here, to even get a season 5 Joss had to cut costs and boost ratings. The obvious way to do that was to bring Spike over from Buffy but then you need to pay him. The obvious solution was to ditch the eternally unpopular Connor and new mother CC as regular characters. I don't blame CC for being sore but this is the same as GQ, they had to fire him for the sake of the show even though it arguably killed him.  

Maybe he should have written a better season 3-4 if he wanted good ratings for season 5... The conner aged up storyline and then the possessed cordy/beast storyline were trash. You can't blame that on a pregnancy.... They didn't have to write it in... considering shows have been easily working around pregnancies for what, 40 years? If he's such an amazing writer, it should have been easy. There are stunt/body doubles for reasons... 

Contract negotiations are one thing, but retaliatory firing is not okay, even if they waited to make it look like it wasn't because she got pregnant or got a tattoo... a tattoo that would take 4 seconds to cover up... or even could make sense in the story like Buffy's cross necklace.... 

Joss Whedon is a dick, it doesn't mean he needs to be arrested or in jail... but it does mean people can choose not to watch his stuff or work for him... especially if this all coming public means he no longer has the power to blacklist people for doing something he didn't like. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by roctavia

[roctavia]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Again you're reading into this, Buffy left SMG constantly exhausted and often injured, that may be more what he was referring to. 

 

Here is what he said : Without going into specifics, Prinze hints that the later seasons of "Buffy" may have been rough for his bride.

"A lot of people owe Sarah a lot for doing that show," Prinze says, "and she doesn't always get the credit she deserves. She's a very strong woman, because she deals with a lot of nonsense, and instead of that nonsense, she should be thanked -- and she's not. That's the reason she won't be coming back."

"Sarah's the most appreciative person in the world, and if that environment would have remained the way it would six years ago, she would go back, because she's loyal. But things change, and people's egos get in the way sometimes. They make poor decisions."

"I don't agree with it, but I understand it, and I just pray I'm never guilty of it."

Prinze asserts that, whatever happened, Gellar gave 100 percent. "And even if she's not, nobody knew, because she commits. She's badass."

 

That doesn't sound like just the grueling hours to me... it makes sense with what Joss's ex-wife said in her essay a few years back... He started off as a humble dude who wanted to make good TV, but quickly as he found success he turned into a not so nice person-ie egos getting in the way.  Cheating on his wife because he could and it made him feel powerful...  I do wonder what happened to the women who said no to his advances once he got in the habit of "young women throw themselves at me"

There is a report from James Marsters a few years ago where he talks about Joss throwing him up against a wall and yelling at him because Spike was more popular than he was supposed to be.... That's not a healthy working environment.