S28.E14: Survivor Cagayan Reunion Show

[Tryangle]

Oh no, are they bringing Brendon/Rachel to Survivor??

 

It's only a matter of time, I'd bet. Hide your sequins.

 

Alexis's contribution to the reunion show: a brief shot of her crying after getting voted out.

 

Which was one more second than the amount of screentime from Brice. Ouch.

 

And quitter Lindsey? Who?

 

Pretty sure that Jeremiah also got the Probst snub, which was a bit of a surprise. Probst likes his manly men, and I'd rather have heard Jeremiah say something instead of poor couldn't-handle-the-conditions Garrett.

 

Odd that Probst's question to LJ was essentially "so the ladies are calling you up now, how's that going bro".

 

Probst spent way too much time shmucking it up with the audience (yes, kids are great, but snuffing their torches is creepy). Have to give him credit for not labelling the injured military man in the audience as "the real Survivor". The time spent doing all that weirdness (including the Tyler Perry segments) could have been better spent on Kass or Tasha, for example.

 

I never thought of Parvati as a tall woman, so seeing her of equal height as Probst was a bit of a surprise too (for some reason I had Probst as a relatively tall fella).

[Wandering Snark]

 

What I would love to see is "Survivor Exes".  Put 9 pairs of ex-husbands and wives (or ex BF's and GFs) on the island, in opposite tribes.

There was a Big Brother season where everyone had ex's in the house but didn't know until everyone was sitting together in the initial meet-and-greet. I have a feeling that Survivor would drastically overcast every pair and it would make for a horrid season. YMMV obviously.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Wandering Snark

[SoWindsor]

What does it mean to be a goat. Everyone kept talking about how Kass was a goat, bring the goat to final 2, etc. What does that mean?

 

Probst spent way too much time shmucking it up with the audience (yes, kids are great, but snuffing their torches is creepy).

When he did that I seriously thought that would be the next survivor twist. An all kids version. So relieved when it was revealed it would be blood v water 2.0.

[Netfoot]

The trouble with Survivor is that lumps of rancid ass-crack wax like Tony can end up winning.  The fact that Probst is now handing out Go-Directly-To-FTC idols doesn't help.

 

Best quote of the season:  "How did you do it without breasts?!??"

[Mrs. P.]

What does it mean to be a goat. Everyone kept talking about how Kass was a goat, bring the goat to final 2, etc. What does that mean?

When he did that I seriously thought that would be the next survivor twist. An all kids version. So relieved when it was revealed it would be blood v water 2.0.

A goat is the contestant that is considered the easiest to beat in the finals.

[Turtle]

Hear!  Hear!  I think the producers got the message that no one likes the Tyler Perry idol.  I hope.

God, I hope so too!  And even though Jeff said the reason people didn't like it was because Tony found it, I think he knows better.  People were furious about it before Tony ever found it, and production has to be aware of it. 

 

I did not even recognize Parvati.  Even after Jeff introduced her, I had trouble believing it was her.  Not sure why, though. 

[Wandering Snark]

I think it was the hair that threw me off... but one she swooped some behind her ear it started looking more like her but yeah she needs to get a refund on that haircut/dye job.

[Miss Scarlet]

 

I did not even recognize Parvati.  Even after Jeff introduced her, I had trouble believing it was her.  Not sure why, though.

I think depending on who does her makeup that day, she sometimes look a lot older than she is/when she was on Survivor. Like unrecognizably so.

 

Everyone keeps saying this season had an amazing cast. It was good, but there one was one whole tribe (Beauty) where almost everyone turned out to be a dud. Is the bar for casting really set so low?

[Haleth]

I had a hard time remembering LJ was on the beauty team. Or that Trisha was on brawn.

[seacliffsal]

I thought it was interesting that Jeff 'promised' the kids that he would be there when they were old enough to be on Survivor as it previously seemed that Jeff couldn't be bothered and wanted to move on.  Guess the implosion of his talk show woke him up a bit.  So, now I guess he'll host for as long as Survivor airs?

[Kromm]

I'm interested to see if Kass tries to rehabilitate her image. I hope she is booed by the audience for her ugly behavior on the show.

I'm fine with Kass in the end.  She at least freaking PLAYED and played hard.  Compare her to Woo, who made like one and a half decisions all game, and they both sucked.  He would have been the worst of all possible winners, to my mind, not Kass (nor Spencer, nor even Trish--although she was ALMOST as much a follower, but... not quite as much).

[Kromm]

BTW: does anyone besides me feel that Probst owed a public apology even more to the world, for listening to Tyler Perry, than one simply to Spencer?

[Tryangle]

I'm fine with Kass in the end.  She at least freaking PLAYED and played hard.  Compare her to Woo, who made like one and a half decisions all game, and they both sucked.  He would have been the worst of all possible winners, to my mind, not Kass (nor Spencer, nor even Trish--although she was ALMOST as much a follower, but... not quite as much).

 

She got lambasted by many (including myself) for jumping from the group of 6 to the group of 5, but in the end, she made it to third place (and should have been no worse than second) for her move, so it did work out in her favour. Chaos Kass did kind of win that argument in the end, so props are due (winning the F4 immunity also proved her Challenge chops).

[truthaboutluv]

The thing is, if the 3 brains had stuck together, I actually think Kass would have made it to final 2 because I don't for one second believe either Tasha or Spencer would have brought the other to the end with them, especially if Tasha had maintained her strong IC performances and Spencer had been in the opposite seat of being in a dominant alliance and likely made some big moves.

 

As the case may be, we'll never really know what would have happened if Kass hadn't flipped. I actually don't think the season would have gone predictably then either. I could easily have seen the alliance of 6 trying to get rid of Spencer before the end or Tasha, again if she had still proven to be an immunity threat. So you never really know. I mean who knows how much farther Morgan and Jeremiah would have gotten. Jeremiah might have been the Woo of the season instead - voting with Spencer until the end. 

[Bryce Lynch]

She got lambasted by many (including myself) for jumping from the group of 6 to the group of 5, but in the end, she made it to third place (and should have been no worse than second) for her move, so it did work out in her favour. Chaos Kass did kind of win that argument in the end, so props are due (winning the F4 immunity also proved her Challenge chops).

 

But Kass played in a way that made it impossible for her to win.  Tony defeated Woo 8-1, and when Probst polled the jury, nearly every one of them said they would have voted for Woo, if he brought Kass to the Final 2. 

 

If Kass was a good player than Phillip Sheppard was a Survivor genius in his first season, and at least he got to face the jury, and received one (misspelled) vote.  It takes absolutely ZERO ability to make it to FTC, if you are willing to be enough of a goat to destroy any chance of winning the jury vote. 

 

What takes skill is being able to get to FTC, without pissing off too many jurors, or being such a non-entity (like Woo) that nobody respects your game play enough to vote for you.  But at weak a player as Woo was, he would have easily defeated Kass, if he hadn't made as he put it the stupidest decision in Survivor history by bring Tony with him instead of Kass. 

 

If Kass had stuck with her original alliance, she likely would have ended up in the Final 3 with Tasha and Spencer, and probably would have been in the Final 2. If she had stuck with that alliance and hadn't been so utterly obnoxious, she might have even had a chance to beat Tasha or Spencer, especially Spencer.  Spencer might have lost a few votes with his snide comments (though most were directed at Kass) and his fist pumping and celebrating at TCs.

 

Alternatively, she might have blindsided Spencer or Tasha at the Final 4 TC and brought a better goat with her to FTC (if such a player was still in the game) and defeated that player with the jury.  

 

Instead she completely destroyed any chance of winning the $1 million on day 19.   

I had a hard time remembering LJ was on the beauty team. Or that Trisha was on brawn.

Are you sure about that?  I thought LJ was on the bald team and Trish was on bones. :)

[Kromm]

I never thought of Parvati as a tall woman, so seeing her of equal height as Probst was a bit of a surprise too (for some reason I had Probst as a relatively tall fella).

I'm gonna bet she was wearing heels, and tall ones.

 

This really old reference claims she's 5' 6" - https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071123000009AAGMs5G

 

If she had 4 inch heels on, she'd appear about the same as Probst.

[Bryce Lynch]

BTW: does anyone besides me feel that Probst owed a public apology even more to the world, for listening to Tyler Perry, than one simply to Spencer?

I didn't have a huge problem with the TPI.  I think it is good to add an element that can cause a major shakeup in the game.  It just so happened that the guy who found it, was a somewhat unlikable player, who was running the dominant alliance and already had a regular HII. 

 

In a different scenario the Tyler Perry Idol, could have made a boring, predictable season more exciting. 

[KnitsWithRaceCars]

I was VERY (pleasantly!) surprised that Probie didn't make a single comment about the F2 both being "brawn" males, as we all know how much he is attracted to brawny alpha males.  Maybe the facts that 2 "brains" rounded out the top 4 and that the "brains" dominated the IIC shut him up.

 

To those of you talking about Brenchel being on Survivor...  Shhhhh!  We don't want to give TPTB any ideas!  :-)  I can only imagine in horror:  RI could become Brenchel Island (nee Cody Island), which they would use to make Brenchel babies.  And, "I wanted to go on a tropical island adventure with my best friend!"  GAG!!!!!

[Tristan Tzara]

My interpretation was that the audience would have liked it if Spencer found the special idol since it was there, but they still don't like it. Probst tried to spin it that way though.

 

I fantasized that Cliff would 'accidentally' bump Lindsay off the bench. 

 

I don't like the bleacher seats. I'd prefer a chair arrangement where we could see all of them in close-up shots.

[Netfoot]

I didn't have a huge problem with the TPI.

 

I did.

 

The Go-Directly-To-FTC Idol is unassailable.  With that thing around your neck you are guaranteed no votes against you for virtually the whole rest of the game.  You can't be tricked into playing/wasting it.  Everyone knows that a vote against you is pointless.  So you go straight to the end-game.

 

There are too many idols as it is.  The game sure doesn't need that dumb-assed idol as well!

[Milk-Eyed Mender]

I did.

The Go-Directly-To-FTC Idol is unassailable. With that thing around your neck you are guaranteed no votes against you for virtually the whole rest of the game. You can't be tricked into playing/wasting it. Everyone knows that a vote against you is pointless. So you go straight to the end-game.

There are too many idols as it is. The game sure doesn't need that dumb-assed idol as well!

Too many idols may be an understatement. It seems that once Jeff latches onto an idea, he is loathe to let it go: Boston Rob is the greatest of all time; Redemption Island rocks; every season benefits from the presence of a professional athlete; the more idols, the better. He has said viewers would be bored to tears with a return to old-school Survivor. I'd like the chance to prove him wrong.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Still, that's the first time I can remember the show acknowledging audience displeasure with an element of the format of the show itself.  Obviously they've acknowledged the unpopularity of some players.  But I can't remember an acknowledgement of the displeasure people expressed about Redemption Island, the Medallion of Power, the Outcast Tribe, etc.

 

It seems that once Jeff latches onto an idea, he is loathe to let it go:

This is why Jeff made a big deal of interviewing Tyler Perry and making sure EVERYBODY knew that the Super-Powered Hidden Immunity Idol was Tyler Perry's fault.  Not his!

 

I was not crazy about Blood vs. Water the first time, but it may be more interesting with new players.  I doubt it though.  It's the whole Redemption Island thing that drags the show down - the contests between the benchwarmers to see who gets back on the show that eat up a third of every episode, the way it kind of kills a lot of the strategizing and the social game.  If only some hapless viewer had come up with the original idea Jeff could drop it.

 

 

SoWindsor:What does it mean to be a goat?

There is a thread here on previouslytv  that discusses the Fox/Bear/Bunny/Goat analysis of Survivor gameplay, including a link to the original discussion on SurvivorSucks:

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/6563-the-fox-the-goat-survivor-gameplay-archetypes/#entry87029

Edited May 24, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[legaleagle53]

The Go-Directly-To-FTC Idol is unassailable.  With that thing around your neck you are guaranteed no votes against you for virtually the whole rest of the game.  You can't be tricked into playing/wasting it.  Everyone knows that a vote against you is pointless.  So you go straight to the end-game.

 

Exactly.  That's why the rule regarding the Hidden Immunity Idol was changed after Yul's season: it simply gave the holder too much power by assuring that the holder would never have to worry about being voted out as long as everyone knew that he/she had it.  No one would ever bother to vote someone out who could negate any votes cast against him/her after the fact.

[Alapaki]

No one would ever bother to vote someone out who could negate any votes cast against him/her after the fact.

 

 

Theoretically, it could still be flushed if the opposing alliance had sufficient numbers to split the vote.  But waiting until so late in the game to introduce the Special HII pretty much ensured that there wouldn't be sufficient numbers to split the vote.  

[Netfoot]

Theoretically, it could still be flushed if the opposing alliance had sufficient numbers to split the vote.

 

Let's say someone named TONY had the TPI and the opposing alliance decides to flush it.  Votes will have to be cast for TONY in the highest majority to make him play it, but when he does, someone else will go home and nobody in the opposing alliance will volunteer for that honour.  So a second voting bloc of the opposing alliance has to vote for TONY's alliance mate, theoretically called TRISH.  The TRISH voting bloc must be smaller than the TONY voting bloc to force the idol out, but it must be larger than the voting bloc that is TONY and TRISH. 

 

Assume TONY and TRISH are in an alliance of only two.  This means that three opposing alliance votes must be cast for TRISH and four votes cast for TONY.  A total of seven votes plus the two that TONY/TRISH will cast themselves.  Therefore the TPI can only be flushed at F9 or before. 

 

Now if TONY/TRISH have a third alliance mate theoretically called WOO in their voting bloc, then matters get worse because the fallback voting bloc must cast four votes for TRISH (or WOO), and the other voting bloc must cast five votes for TONY.  In this case, a TPI flush will only work at F12 or before.

 

Unless members of the opposing alliance are willing to risk getting booted (or to sacrifice one of their own) to fulfill the objective, flushing that TPI is not practical after F9.  And how often do you see alliances split 7 to 2 at F9 anyway?  And even if you did have those numbers, you just know that out of your alliance of 7, someone will "make a big move" and flip, right?  And any plan involving a sacrifice will only precipitate this.

 

So I'd say that flushing the TPI is, for all practical purposes, impossible.

 

[cherrypj]

Therefore the TPI can only be flushed at F9 or before. 

 

Theoretically, it can be flushed at F5: if KASS, WOO, SPENCER vote for TONY, and TONY & TRISH vote for KASS.

 

Tony plays the TPI, and KASS goes home. It may only work if no one knows Tony has the TPI.

 

Of course, at F5, it doesn't matter: the TPI can no longer be played. But you see my point. You can apply it to F7, too.

[Netfoot]

Theoretically, it can be flushed at F5...

 

That's not going to work, because KASS, WOO and SPENCER aren't going to vote for TONY seeing as it means TONY and TRISH get to choose who from their own alliance (KASS, in your example) goes home, leaving the game split 2:2.  Nobody will be a part of an idol-flushing plan that leaves themselves vulnerable, and deliberately giving up the numbers is also highly unlikely.

[dolphincorn]

Well, then what about having a second supercharged, secret idol that cancels out the first one if it's played?  Jeez, I'm a genius!

[cherrypj]

That's not going to work

 

Right: that's why I said it might only work if no one knows Tony has the TPI.

[Netfoot]

I'm sorry, but I was talking about a deliberate plan to force TONY to play his TPI.  Obviously, if you hold the TPI and get the most votes, you will play it and save yourself.  But I wouldn't call that flushed out.  More simply used as intended.

 

Edited to say that a Super-Idol-Killing Idol would be a great idea! 

Edited May 25, 2014 by Netfoot

[Alapaki]

IF the TPI has to be played before a tie-revote, then unless I'm missing something, it's possible to flush it as late as F6.

 

Let's say the TPI-holder has one Ally who will always vote along with them (as opposed to someone whom they think will always vote along with them). 

 

That leaves the TPI-holder on the wrong side of a 4-2 split.  (and the 4 don't necessarily have to be 100% aligned with each other, just aligned in the desire to flush the TPI).

 

They could split the votes 2 for the TPI holder and 2 for his/her ally.  Presumably the TPI-holder and his ally vote together against a member of the majority alliance.

 

That results in a 2-2-2 tie. On the re-vote, only the 3 members of the majority alliance who weren't targeted by the TPI-holder can vote.  If the TPI-holder has to play his TPI after the initial vote (and before the revote), then they'll almost certainly play it at that point.  Then his/her ally gets voted out on the tie-breaker vote 3-0, and he/she is left without the TPI.

 

Of course, if the TPI-holder had a feeling that's the way it was going to play out, they could be really ruthless and vote against their own ally, so that their ally goes out on the initial vote 3-2-1 and they get to hold onto the TPI all the way to F4/3 (depending on the FTC configuration).

 

I think I have the math right there.  There's definitely a stars-need-to-align quality to it.  But I don't think it's as remote a possibility as it might seem.  Especially if players start to worry about there being a F2 instead of a F3 again.

[Netfoot]

OK, thinking it through... After a 2-2-2 split, why would the TPI get played at that point?  Nobody is going home yet because a re-vote is about to happen.  So, the three un-targeted players vote 2 for the TPI and 1 for the ally, forcing the TPI to be played after the second round of voting, and sending home the ally. 

 

So yes, it would appear you're correct.  A flush may be possible at F6 under these (as you say) "stars-need-to-align" circumstances, given there aren't any usage restrictions we're unaware of WRT re-votes.  And perhaps such alignment isn't totally remote, but I think it is probably going to be rare enough that the TPI remains pretty unassailable.

 

I much prefer the idea proposed by dolphincorn, for an  idol-killing token of some sort.  Imagine it able to be played last, negating the effect of any idol in the game (but not the IC necklace).  Now, that would stir things up a bit!

[NutMeg]

That reminds me of a game I played as a kid, Mille bornes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mille_Bornes) where to each "hazard/hiccup" (in this case, let's say being voted out) there exists a remedy (in this case not being voted out). But if you follow my childhood game, it gets more intesresting because the hiccups could be, in the case of Survivor, "cannot participate in/win IC", remedy "sucker, I sure can" or "you get a disadvantage at the next challenge", remedy "not so, I've got the card that gives me an advantage to counter your disadvantage", etc.

 

So basically I'm thinking that multiple idols could be fun if they all had different powers. 

 

For the record I don't particularly like HII.

 

But I still think if you want to have them, my idea is better than Tyler Perry's. 

[Hanahope]

I'm no good at math.  I'm sure it all works out correctly, but I'm trying to follow Tony's wife being 9 months pregnant 6 months after the show was filmed.  All his endless talk about his baby daughter being just 4 months old, I'd have thought he'd have at least mentioned that his wife was pregnant again.  His friend showed up, and we heard no discussion of the second baby.  I don't know.  Something seems fishy here.

 

Did they say she was 9 months pregnant?  I thought they just said she was on bedrest for being pregnant, but didn't say how far along she was.  That said, I believe they filmed both seasons of Survivor last summer, so theoretically, Tony could have gotten home in September and gotten his wife immediately pregnant thereafter (I'm sure Tony, being who he is, had lots of "i've been gone for a month" make up sex), which would be 9 months ago.

 

They started filming the Survivor seasons immediately back to back a couple of years ago in order to save costs.  That's why the two seasons are held in the same area, likely using the same camp areas and same general tribal council area, with just some cosmetic changes.  They film a season, take a week or two break, film next season, all in one summer.

 

I was disappointed we didn't hear more from Kass at the reunion. 

[henripootel]

So I'd say that flushing the TPI is, for all practical purposes, impossible.

Yep.  What you describe is a simple collective action problem - everybody wants the stupid TPI flushed but nobody wants to get voted out for it.  So nobody does anything.  It's the same reason we have pollution even though everyone agrees that pollution is bad.  

 

My problem with the TPI is that it gives the producers way too much power, assuming that they're willing to be pull shenanigans and interfere with the game.  I think they are, certainly to the point of having a camera guy linger where the TPI is buried so that their fave finds it.  Tony's somewhat clairvoyant finding of the TPI raised my eyebrows but I wasn't sure this was shenanigans till Jeffy decided to withhold the announcement of when the TPI can last be used, thereby (apparently) sparing Tony, again, when he was able to 'bluff' that his idol still worked (since only he knew it'd expired).  Now I'm sure.  

 

Add to that Woo's suddenly assuming the mantle of 'Man of Honor' (who is actually ok with stealing from other contestants) and I kinda wonder if somebody had quiet word with him about who he thought 'deserves' to be in the F2 (rather than whom Woo felt he could beat).  I always have to wonder when 'random events' seem to conspire to secure the obvious producer favorite the win.

Edited May 27, 2014 by henripootel

[kikaha]

 

I kinda wonder if somebody had quiet word with him about who he thought 'deserves' to be in the F2 (rather than whom Woo felt he could beat).

 

Somebody did.  His name was Tony.  He had been whispering things in Woo's ear all season.  Woo paid attention at the end, just like he had the previous 37 days. 

 

 

everybody wants the stupid TPI flushed but nobody wants to get voted out for it.  So nobody does anything.

 

Two problems muddied those waters.  The other players didn't know if Tony really had the TPI.  And they didn't know what its special powers were.  Tony played it perfectly on both counts, which is why he bluffed his way past the F4 TC and sent Spence packing. 

 

I disagree with your basic premise as well.  To not be willing to sacrifice yourself, so the others can flush out an idol, is rational play. 

 

 

My problem with the TPI is that it gives the producers way too much power, assuming that they're willing to be pull shenanigans and interfere with the game.  I think they are, certainly to the point of having a camera guy linger where the TPI is buried so that their fave finds it.  Tony's somewhat clairvoyant finding of the TPI raised my eyebrows but I wasn't sure this was shenanigans till Jeffy decided to withhold the announcement of when the TPI can last be used, thereby (apparently) sparing Tony, again, when he was able to 'bluff' that his idol still worked (since only he knew it'd expired).  Now I'm sure.

 

A number of contestants said Tony spent hours searching for idols, far more than anyone else.  No surprise that he was more likely to find something.  Same has been true in other seasons.    

 

All season long, Tony had created interest, intrigue, strategy and excitement.  No surprise the cameras followed him -- who knows what he might pull next that would be of interest? 

 

I very much doubt the producers gave him a helping hand.  Too easy for word to get out.  If it did, the show would take a major hit.  I've seen people claim 'producer interference' for years.  They have produced zero evidence to back up their charge.  

 

One reason I like HIIs is that they give everyone the exact same chance to find them.  Anyone who chooses can search, for as long as they like, in as many spots as they wish.  The HIIs are gender/age/alliance free. 

 

As for Jeff not announcing the expiration date: he is under no obligation to do that.  Survivor constantly mixes things up.  Assuming the game won't change -- that TPTB will do the same things they did before -- is a ticket to Ponderosa. 

 

In a key way this season was heavily slanted AGAINST Tony.  After merge just about every IC involved a puzzle.  The puzzles were the most time-consuming part of the challenges.  Tony sucked at puzzles.  So he had basically no chance to win immunity.  This was especially crucial at the end, where the last two ICs were in essence the same thing. 

 

Survivor had never had so many puzzles before.  I personally thought they way overdid them.  But Tony was a good enough player to make adjustments and stay alive anyway. 

 

Did the producers conspire to keep Tony out of the finals? 

[henripootel]

I disagree with your basic premise as well.  To not be willing to sacrifice yourself, so the others can flush out an idol, is rational play.

Rationality is the essence of a collective action problem - everyone agrees about what 'should be done' but everybody wants somebody else to pay for it.  Perfectly reasonable but the issue goes unsolved, hence 'Collective action problem'.

I've seen people claim 'producer interference' for years.  They have produced zero evidence to back up their charge.

I'll leave out the bits and bobs that have slipped by the NDAs over the years (such as one player from season one mentioning that the PAs bent his ear relentlessly to convince him that Rich 'deserved to win') and mention 'faked medical evacs'.   After a few suspicious incidents (and a leaked spoiler or two) the issue came up about whether or not the producers would re-brand contestants quitting as 'medical evacuations', and there was lively debate at our soon-to-be-departed old stomping grounds about 'Why would they do such a thing?'.  Jeff hates quitters - why would he protect them?  Some folks said they wouldn't believe it till Jeffy came out and admitted it (which seemed unlikely), and then Jeffy came out and admitted it. After Colton quit a second time, Probst dinged him for doing this twice, after they gave him a second chance and all.  

 

Now this isn't evidence that other things are faked, but it's clear evidence that the producers, well, lie.  Flat out and bald-faced.  About stuff Jeffy says he takes seriously (but really doesn't).  And I don't blame them - they have a show to produce and I watch it for free.  But I'm also not likely to conclude that them not stepping forward to admit rigging stuff means 'they are therefore innocent'.

 

Besides, sifting for producer nonsense is excellent sport.  It's at least as entertaining as the show itself, especially the reunion show.

Edited May 28, 2014 by henripootel

[kikaha]

henri, I agree completely that the TPI is too high-powered. 

[ProfCrash]

I thought I heard that Tony's wife is 8 months pregnant. The bed rest that late could be because she is showing signs of delivering early and they are trying to delay the birth as long as possible. Keep in mind that most prgnancies are 40 weeks so closer to 10 months then 9 months. It sounds like she got pregnant pretty fast when he got home from the game. His daughter was 4-6 months old at the family meeting. I was confused because I wasn't sure if Tony said he last saw her at four months or if she was four months at that time. I am leaning towards 6 months, since she had doubled in size and that is traditionally something that happens at 6 months, the baby doubling in size since birth.

 

So if she was 6 months when Tony was playing, she was potentially 7 months when Tony got home (Final four to three to two plus some time at Ponderosa before going home, nine days minimum). So his daughter should be around 14-16 months old when her sibling arrives. Pretty close together but plenty of people do that so no big deal.

[Hanahope]

One way its easy for the producers to influence the game is by the questions they ask the contestants during their 'talking head' interviews.  There could have been a dozen questions to Woo about "who deserves to go to F2", "who would you like to see win if you don't", "what does your life philosophy say you should do", etc. that would steer him in the direction of picking Tony over Kass.  We never see/hear those questions.  All we ever see are 'some' of the answers.

 

For all we know, TPTB constantly asked Tony, "hey, why aren't you looking for idols?" "don't you think there might be more idols out there?"  "are you sure Spencer found the 'only' idol?"  "do you think maybe Spencer's played idol got rehidden?" and maybe they didn't ask those questions to other contestants.

[Alapaki]

but I wasn't sure this was shenanigans till Jeffy decided to withhold the announcement of when the TPI can last be used, thereby (apparently) sparing Tony, again, when he was able to 'bluff' that his idol still worked (since only he knew it'd expired).

 

 

I'm completely wiling to believe that TPTB try to nudge things in the direction they think will make the best TV.

 

But I can't criticize the way Peachy handled Tony's bluff about the TPI.  Jeff told ew.com that they never expected a player to try a bluff like that.  I can believe that.  Presumably the rules they're given ahead of time didn't address that issue.  Otherwise the bluff would've had no legs in the first place.  If Jeff had said something, one way or the other, he would've been influencing the game.

 

I would love to know what he would've said if someone had asked him, point blank, at Tribal Council, if Tony could still play the TPI.  

[riley702]

I would love to know what he would've said if someone had asked him, point blank, at Tribal Council, if Tony could still play the TPI.  

I would think he would have to tell them the truth. They'd probably cut it from the broadcast, though, and we'd all be commenting how stupid it was of Tony to bluff when they all knew the rule about when it could last be played.

[henripootel]

If Jeff had said something, one way or the other, he would've been influencing the game.

True, but here's the thing: having rules and procedures by definition influences the game.  My understanding is (and I may be wrong here) that Jeff routinely reads out the rule that HIIs are only good until final 5 (which is a pretty important rule), and well he should.  Rules are rules, and they apply to everyone, right?  Well, no - if Jeff chose not to follow established protocol, then he changed normal procedure in a way that benefited only one player and could only benefit one player.  If Jeff wanted to 'stay out of it', he'd have followed normal procedure, but instead he acted and totally changed the game, and apparently saved Tony's bacon.  The notion that Probst withholding information was him being impartial is, I think, nonsense. 

I would love to know what he would've said if someone had asked him, point blank, at Tribal Council, if Tony could still play the TPI.

As would I.  Given the detail Spenser put into his game, I somehow find it unlikely that he'd just leave it up to chance or guesswork.  I'd bet this month's allowance the Spenser did ask (if not Jeff then one of the omnipresent PAs) for a clarification on this and was told 'we can't give you this information'.  That alone would be a not-so-subtle hint that the SHII might well remain in play, else why the secrecy? This doesn't bespeak of a level playing field. 

[ProfCrash]

Jeff regularly reads the rules for the idols that are in play. The question is what was said in the offical rule book about the TPI that the players could have known, which is what I am assuming is what Jeff reiterates at tribal.

 

I have no idea what is in the offical rule book. I am sure there is some mention of hidden immunity idols, how they are transfered (ie you can't steal it) and the like. It is possible that the rules do not specifiy what the idols can do or when they can be played. They could be intentionally vague, or made more vague, in order to cover the TPI.

 

Everyone seemed surprised that there was a special idol in play and no one had a clue as to what it could do. That is why Tony was able to bluff. If the rules were very detailed, I am sure lawyer Kass or super fans like Spencer or smarter game savy folks, like Tasha, Tony, and Trish, would have known what it is and what it can do. I am sure that they all made darn sure to find the rules on the hidden immunity idol.

 

So I am guessing the rules are written in a vague enough manner to allow the TPI and not make it clear that it could not be used after the final five. Either that or the contestants were really good actors and let Tony get away with one intentionally.

 

Jeff has allowed the bluff with fake idols that contestants made that looked real. He has allowed people to lie about their ages, occupations and other things. Why shouldn't he let Tony lie about the special idol?

 

Mu only problem with the TPI is that it was introduced too late in the game to allow anyone to do anything about it. It should have been introduced at each camp right off the bat so that there was an oppertunity to flush it. Imagine that the weakest player got the choice to go for rice or an idol and the idol was the TPI. That would have been cool. Once it is used, it is gone from the game and a regula idol is introduced. It would provide coverage for someone who is traditionally vunerable, the person deemed the weakest, and could influence the outcome of the game pretty significantly as well as change the strategy.

[Netfoot]

It would provide coverage for someone who is traditionally vunerable, the person deemed the weakest, and could influence the outcome of the game pretty significantly as well as change the strategy.

Why is this desirable?

 

If an Immunity Idol can be likened to a joker in a pack of cards, then consider the density.  In a deck of 52 cards there are only two or three jokers.  But in a Survivor game of 18 players -- maybe 16 Tribal Councils, there can be three, four, five or more idols.   They get played two at a time.  What next?  Everybody gets an idol?

 

Most games of cards don't use jokers.  

[henripootel]

I have no idea what is in the offical rule book.

I'm pretty sure there isn't one, not really.  Which isn't to say that there isn't a lengthy list of Dos and Don'ts along with the NDA the players sign, but there have been a number of examples of the producers violating the rules they said were inviolable.  

Jeff has allowed the bluff with fake idols that contestants made that looked real. He has allowed people to lie about their ages, occupations and other things. Why shouldn't he let Tony lie about the special idol?

He should let Tony lie, he just shouldn't help him lie.  He shouldn't be helping contestants at all, to say nothing of singling one out for assistance.  Not to beat a dead horse, but if Jeffy has always given out the info of when the idols expire (which is an objective question I'll leave to the Survivor scholars here), then by choosing not to do so this time, Probst went from 'impartial ref' to 'aiding and abetting'.  He wasn't trying to stay out of the way of a perfectly valid bluff, he was assisting one player to bluff the others.

 

If there is something about this in the rule book, my guess is that it says 'players can ask for a clarification of the rules if they choose'.  I'll bet it doesn't say ' ... and you'll be given a full and complete answer'.  

Edited May 29, 2014 by henripootel

[kikaha]

 

I'd bet this month's allowance the Spenser did ask (if not Jeff then one of the omnipresent PAs) for a clarification on this and was told 'we can't give you this information'.

 

The other day I saw the AfterBuzz interview with Spencer.  This very question came up.  Spence said he did not ask Jeff or anyone else: Tony totally hoodwinked him. 

[henripootel]

The other day I saw the AfterBuzz interview with Spencer.  This very question came up.  Spence said he did not ask Jeff or anyone else: Tony totally hoodwinked him.

Well, so much for my allowance.  But (and this is the last time I'll post on this, I swear), Tony's hoodwinking efforts were greatly aided by Probst's silence.  Spencer himself said that he guessed that there would be a final 2 by carefully parsing Probst's words, and if there was a final 2 rather than a final 3, maybe the idols were still useful at final 4 rather than the usual final 5.  Probst unprecedentedly said nothing so Spencer was left to infer what this meant. 

Edited May 29, 2014 by henripootel

[SnideAsides]

There's a clause in most reality TV rulebooks that basically says "Producers have the right to change the rules at any time and for any reason".

[henripootel]

There's a clause in most reality TV rulebooks that basically says "Producers have the right to change the rules at any time and for any reason".

This is known for sure?  I am, of course, utterly unsurprised.  Might be worth it to start a thread about suspected interference by the producers, what they will and won't do.  I'm fairly certain they fiddle with some bits but not all.