S02.E13: The Word

[PsychoDrone]

7 hours ago, JasonCC said:

There were many unbelievable/out of character moments (stop with the constant hesitating and dawdling in frantic situations already!) but the normally cool and calculated Emily snapping at that moment and stabbing Aunt Lydia wasn't one for me. I think it was a spur of the moment snap, brought about because of one specific line. Aunt Lydia made that cruel crack about "should have cut out your tongue", she was referring to the genital mutilation Emily underwent and is still probably in deep PTSD over. Had Aunt Lydia not made that particular, triggering comment? I think Emily would have kept the kitchen knife hidden, allowed Aunt Lydia to think she was getting along at the Lawrence household more or less by the rules, and quietly reassessed her situation and options. 

Yes, Lydia went too far.  Had she left it at the disparaging remarks about Emily's homosexuality, Lydia would have walked out unharmed.  She stepped over the line mentioning the mutilation.  That knife was destined for someone, and Lydia gave Emily the reason to use it.  Lydia will be back next season.  But, a little wiser and more wary of the handmaids.  She definitely won't be turning her back on any of them again.

[Ashforth]

I watched the finale Friday night when I was very tired, so I'm going to re-watch it. I've read this whole thread and I think the only thing I thought that hasn't been brought up is that when Serena and Naomi are talking about "their" babies, they were standing behind their Marthas who were holding the babies, and Angela scarcely looked bigger than newborn Nicole. Now I know that Angela had failed to thrive (Praised Be for the miracle cure), but if I recall correctly, June wasn't even pregnant yet when she talked Janine down from the bridge after Angela was born.

Just another SMH timeline/continuity moment for me.

[Ashforth]

Also, with apologies for the double post, I had a moment of deja vu when Aunt Lydia was down and bleeding after Emily attacked her. Didn't something similar happen in Season One? Was it Emily that time? I seem to recall Aunt Lydia showing up using a cane after that attack.

Maybe I am completely wrong.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

Also, with apologies for the double post, I had a moment of deja vu when Aunt Lydia was down and bleeding after Emily attacked her. Didn't something similar happen in Season One? Was it Emily that time? I seem to recall Aunt Lydia showing up using a cane after that attack.

Maybe I am completely wrong.

I don't remember. I think she hit people with the car that she stole. she didn't get very far, but the joy on her face was great. 

[mamadrama]

I should maybe put this in the small talk forum, but it IS about the finale so...

We hosted a Handmaid's Tale finale to watch this last episode. We always have a little viewing party, but this one was much bigger. Although my kids and I sneaked and watched the episode at midnight as soon as it came out, we didn't tell the others and just pretended that it was our first time. The food helped make many of the scenes more palpable. 

All the food was meant to represent things from the actual episodes. You'll see the fake labor macaroons (my mom took a bite and said, "No wonder June spit it out"); chocolate chip cookies (with cinnamon since the household gets special privileges now) with milk; "Handmaid" napkins; Serena's white roses; oranges since "the fighting in Florida is going well; and popcorn and coke as a reminder that it's always easier to support a government overthrow if you have tasty movie snacks at your disposal. Things not pictured included Handmaid red foods (tomatoes, red velvet cake, etc.) and Wife blue foods (blueberries, blue punch, cupcakes with blue icing, etc.). We also took strawberries and squirted whipped cream on top to make little Handmaids with their hats. 

We usually have a discussion after each episode and my parties' thoughts pretty much echoed everyone's here. The consensus was that while the episode wasn't "bad", and some of the scenes were amazingly beautifully shot, it was a combination of being too rushed and too slow at the same time. June's lingering in the face of what SHOULD be haste is just annoying. Fred is a combination of a cartoon villain and Robert Deniro's Satan in  ANGEL HEART. Nick's one note delivery makes it difficult to care about him. After everything that her husband has done (to her and to others) the fact that Serena Joy actually seems to think that he cares about her or her thoughts at all is starting to make her look a little slow, while her heated outbursts mixed with her moments of softness is coming across less conflicted and more outlandish bi-polar. And while I realize that we don't know how we would react in some of these situations and that June is meant to be "flawed" and "human", I am starting to think that she might seriously just be a little stupid. NONE of these folks act as though they are aware of their surroundings and situation. Serena thinks Fred cares about her ideas? June and Nick don't even look like they're bothering to be inconspicuous? Have they SEEN what's happened in Gilead?

I said this earlier, but I still think it: the writers seem to have forgotten that in S1 Serena remarked that she wrote the anti-reading law. I think it's a dropped plot point just as much as Serena also probably thought that SHE would be immune to the law. 

Commander Lawrence's "don't get caught" and "don't do drugs" was my favorite part of the show. I actually LOVED that it was out of context with the rest of the vibe. Whatever his role was in the past, I feel like he knows all of this is bullshit and he's treating absurdity with absurdity. I dig it. 

 

 

[Earlwoode]

On 7/11/2018 at 6:43 AM, DiabLOL said:

I'm asking all these questions not because I'm trying to sound like the typical cliff hanger narrator but really how can any of these situations be resolved

They will probably just ignore the whole thing and show her peacefully back at the Waterford's with absolutely no explanation for anything like they've done before.  They sure leave a whole bunch of lines danging without every picking them up again.  It's getting very silly.

[Ashforth]

@mamadrama, I want to be your friend IRL. Your viewing parties look and sound awesome! 

[mamadrama]

Just now, Ashforth said:

@mamadrama, I want to be your friend IRL. Your viewing parties look and sound awesome! 

Honestly, they make the episodes a ton of fun. Just getting people together and watching them becomes a little event. We used to have "Lostaway" parties when LOST was on and those were fun, too. For the finale we had an outside viewing with tiki torches, a buffet of South Pacific foods, and a backdrop where you could have your picture taken with your favorite "Lost boy" (or girl). THT shows are a lot different, of course. They open up genuine conversations about what's going on in the world, whereas most of the LOST convos were about who we'd rather be stranded in the hatch with. ;-)

[marinw]

I do love that that the Marthas have formed an underground railroad, risking their own safety to help handmaids escape.

The last song was "Burning down the house." Ha ha, I saw what you did there.

Edited July 16, 2018 by marinw

[AngelaHunter]

(I wish I could watch this the same day as all of you) I guess everything's been said - Com. Lawrence is a quirky fruitcake, and I think his wife is as well, but at least he was entertaining and helpful. This show needs more characters like him so we can get a breather from the constant damned misery. Loved his music - ah, classics, and don't anyone dare call it strange!:p

"Gilligan's Island", where the never-ending escape plans are always foiled? Yep.

Since I have nothing of import to add, I just must say that I'm impressed with Jospeh Fiennes. He is doing a killer job playing the most despicable, weaselly, smarmy, low-life, spineless cocksucker ever. I bet he's the type who goes to prostitutes and pays them to debase him.

On 7/11/2018 at 3:10 AM, Umbelina said:

Serena actually seems religious, and she's an asshole often, but she gritted her teeth during the ceremonies.  She MISSES sex.  She hates not reading.  She hates not writing.  She hates knitting.  She hates her teal uniforms.  She hates having a handmaid in her house.  She hates that the men have the only say in everything.  She hates that girls can't read.  She hates the Aunts.

That's pretty much the way I see her, and she takes out her anger and frustration on those who can't fight back. However, she turned down the offer to stay in Canada and be free. Maybe I'm obtuse but I didn't understand her reasoning for that. She did seem truly distressed over the heinous muders of a young girl and her boyfriend so she can't really believe all that cult-ish claptrap she mouthes or she would have thought Eden got her just desserts. 

Emily stabbing Aunt Lydia: Thank you, Emily, even though are you are (understandably - who wouldn't be?) deranged. Finally, something happened and satisfying it was. I thought it was going to be a cop-out, with Emily doing this only her mind, but Lydia is toast.  At least, I guess she is. We didn't find out.

And Freddy's offer to let June see Hannah: I think that's cruel because each time Hannah sees her mother, she then has to go through the trauma of losing her all over again, not understanding why her mother seems to keep abandoning her.

[Ashforth]

12 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Since I have nothing of import to add, I just must say that I'm impressed with Jospeh Fiennes. He is doing a killer job playing the most despicable, weaselly, smarmy, low-life, spineless cocksucker ever. I bet he's the type who goes to prostitutes and pays them to debase him.

No one could have put this better.

[AngelaHunter]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

Steadily shatter norms so that the population accepts one travesty after another.   People don't want to think the unthinkable is happening, so they tell themselves it's just this one thing and move on.  Until the next thing.   Or they rationalize it as being for the greater good, i.e., you have to break a few eggs if you want to make an omelet.

Yes! That was exactly Hitler's strategy: Start small. Take away just a few no so important priviliges, one little thing at a time (a curfew here, a ban on something there) so after each new one, people resign themselves to it, might say, "Oh, well. That's not so bad. I guess we can live with that." And then the regime gets more and more oppressive but by then people feel helpless or paralyzed.

[shksabelle]

Don’t think I’ll be in for season 3. It’s getting a little too “Perils of Pauline” for my taste. 

And while I think Elisabeth Moss is a wonderful actress, I feel like have seen all her OTT facial expressions at this point. In fact, a couple of times she looked like she was going to go full on Linda Blair 360 head spin. 

I feel like season 3 is going to be “The Hunt for Hannah”/Offred’s Cliffhanger of the Week b

[alexvillage]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That's pretty much the way I see her, and she takes out her anger and frustration on those who can't fight back. However, she turned down the offer to stay in Canada and be free. Maybe I'm obtuse but I didn't understand her reasoning for that. She did seem truly distressed over the heinous muders of a young girl and her boyfriend so she can't really believe all that cult-ish claptrap she mouthes or she would have thought Eden got her just desserts. 

Pride. Many people are like this, especially people who rely in strong ideology/religion to justify their choices. I see it happening a lot in real life, in small daily actions that don't have an obvious impact in other people's lives, or in their own lives. When the impact is felt, people rationalize to justify what they did or didn't do.

Serena might have had the secret urge to stay in Canada but that would have forced her to recognize that what she saw as a better society was too flawed, that her ideals were harming end not helping at all. She is bothered by what she sees but while she will maybe try to change it or even suffer with what could be called guilty (although not acknowledged as such) she will not openly accept that their little project of a country is nothing more than a misogynist dictatorship (racist too but the show dropped the ball on that) 

[greekmom]

Finally saw the last episode last night (in Canada), so I thought it was just plain dumb.

June is stupid for staying.  I think SJ was hopped up on something to let the baby go.  And for June to concede that baby's name is Nicole (oh sorry Nichole).  

Hopefully, new Commander steps in and takes June in his household where she becomes part of the resistance but due to plot and keeping the Waterfords in the picture (cannot have them as secondary characters!), she is stuck as Freddy's bitch.

[marinw]

Although I continue to find June frustrating and would enjoy punching Fred in the face, I liked this episode more than I thought I would. As I said upthread, the Marthas are badass. IIRC in the pilot June said something about the Marthas having their own network, here we see it in action.

If I was stuck in Gilead, I would hope to be a Martha as that seems the least miserable of the available options. At least I would get to work (I enjoy a certain amount of cooking and baking) and could help run an underground railroads. I wonder how often the Marthas help each other out of Gilead. I wish the show would tell us more about Rita.

I also felt bad for Serena. Like Lawrence, she sees the hell that she helped create but unlike Lawrence she has little agency. She tried to make a modest change with sound logic and lost a finger for it. That scene where June convinces Serena to give up Holly/Nicole really got to me. Great acting by Yvonne and EM there.

I hope Aunt Lydia survives. She is such a great villian, it would be a shame to lose her. But where are the other Aunts?

Edited July 16, 2018 by marinw

[dleighg]

21 minutes ago, marinw said:

If I was stuck in Gilead, I would hope to be a Martha as that seems the least miserable of the available option. At least I would get to work (I enjoy a certain amount of cooking and baking)

I tend to agree (I love to cook and bake), but I have to admit we haven't seen Rita scrubbing toilets, have we?

[marinw]

15 minutes ago, dleighg said:

I tend to agree (I love to cook and bake), but I have to admit we haven't seen Rita scrubbing toilets, have we?

I'm sure she does that too. It is probably her job to inspect said toliet and report if the Handmaid is on her period. As for domestic stuff, it's one thing to choose to do housework and cooking because you enjoy it or if it's your job, it's another thing to be forced into it. But it would still beat being a Handmaid.

[SourK]

I'm a little bit taken aback by the posts in this thread calling for Fred to be punished by death and Serena to be punished by rape. Why did the sentencing turn out that way?

On 7/11/2018 at 3:45 AM, mamadrama said:

I feel like the writers are just ignoring that scene and acting like it never happened. The S2 Serena has acted like she had no part in the formation of Gilead and tonight's Serena acted like she had no part in writing that "no reading" law. Honestly, I think this was one of those dropped plot points that I am getting pissed about.

I have a Serena Joy theory that's a little different from the normal one. I think what happened is that she believed she knew the correct way for everyone to live and that, if they could just be forced to follow her design, they would all realize that she was right and be happy. So, the people who got pushed into subservient positions would say, "I understand now that this is my proper place in life and I feel the peace that comes from embracing my destiny!" and the men she left with unchecked power would be fair and reasonable and just and make exactly the same decisions that she would personally make, and it would all be a happy society. (And, for what it's worth, I think that people who support dictatorship generally believe that the dictator will rule exactly as they personally would, and not do something awful with their power -- they neglect to imagine what would happen if someone had unchecked power and decided to be an asshole).

Now, she's seeing that none of those predictions came true. The little people aren't happy being shoved into subservient positions, and the men she left in charge are not really following the blueprint she thought they would follow. So now, because no one's cooperating with her utopian vision, there's way more violence than she thought there would be and it's way less temporary than she thought it would be, and it's getting harder and harder to blame people like June for being too rebellious when it's clearly a systemic problem.

On 7/11/2018 at 11:40 AM, Joana said:

SO many ridiculous things happened in this episode that I don't even know where to begin. Let's start with this - this is a regime that's brutally and mercilessly killed thousands upon thousands of people. That pool in the last episode was full of chains from previous executions. We see people hanging on the wall the whole time. We've seen a Wife sent to the colonies for doing the same thing Eden did. So, why is her execution so special that it should shake the foundations of the society? I understand very well why those who knew her would be upset. But THIS is the thing that opens the other Wives' eyes? Nothing like this has happened before? Nobody was executed for adultery? Give me a break.

I asked myself the same question, and this is the answer I came up with: The major theme this season has been religion, and specifically the difference between sincerely held religious faith (which we see in the Rabbi in the colonies, and in June, when she makes a memorial for the victims at the newspaper) and whatever the hell Gilead preaches (a bunch of rhetoric to justify political power structures and not much else). Eden was super Christian and tried to live her life according to Christian values, and tried to study the bible so that she'd know the right way to behave, and reached the informed decision that her faith did not forbid her to be with the person she loved. And none of that was good enough for Gilead, because Gilead doesn't care about Christianity. 

So, I think that seeing Eden executed for trying to do what a lot of these people would have seen as the right things to do only a few years ago is a bit of a wake-up call that maybe Gilead is not being governed by the bible after all, and maybe in a few generations, no one will have the opportunity to know that. (Just to be clear, I don't support theocracy, but these people do, and they're discovering that they aren't even in a theocracy after all).

On 7/11/2018 at 5:03 PM, Baltimore Betty said:

If Serena was so pious why did she have to read the bible, she could have recited from memory, right?

 

I also had this question, because she clearly knew that part of the bible by memory and it would have been safer for her to quote it instead of reading, but, in relation to the points I made above, I think I get why she chose to read it. In addition to just making a simple rhetorical point by being seen to read those words aloud, I think she was also making a bigger point that Gilead is supposed to be ruled by God and the word of God according to the bible (or at least in her mind that's what was supposed to happen, and that's what everyone's kind of pretending has happened, even though it hasn't). The whole point of going to the council and trying to get them to let children read the bible is that Serena's realized that the men in charge of the country are just making shit up -- so by specifically reading the passage about how THIS BOOK is the word of God, and not whatever random thing they say, I think she's hoping to shame them into realizing that they've strayed from the path.

In that sense, I think she's being naively optimistic, but I can see how she would be. We've seen her struggling to admit that her big vision for the perfect society didn't actually work, so it's not totally surprising that she believes she can nudge them back onto the right path. She doesn't understand that they never had any intention of following her religion. Or, at least, she doesn't understand it until they cut off her finger.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That's pretty much the way I see her, and she takes out her anger and frustration on those who can't fight back. However, she turned down the offer to stay in Canada and be free. Maybe I'm obtuse but I didn't understand her reasoning for that. She did seem truly distressed over the heinous muders of a young girl and her boyfriend so she can't really believe all that cult-ish claptrap she mouthes or she would have thought Eden got her just desserts.

 

As I recall, she didn't turn down an offer to stay in Canada - she turned down an offer to go to Hawaii, in what remains of the United States. Where her welcome would be far worse than it was in Canada - and if the spy was BSing her (which he undoubtedly was, in my mind), she would become a symbol for their propaganda pieces, and would have even less agency than she does in Gilead, or even be charged with war or human rights crimes. She's smart enough to understand that shiny offer came with a big downside.

[AngelaHunter]

37 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

she turned down an offer to go to Hawaii, in what remains of the United States.

Ah, thanks. My memory is not what it should be. That makes more sense now.

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

If I was stuck in Gilead, I would hope to be a Martha as that seems the least miserable of the available options.

It's also a job that keeps them mostly under the radar and mostly free of scrutiny. Nameless and faceless, the men don't notice their existence until they want tea or dinner - much in the way we don't really notice our washing machines or stoves until we need clean clothes or hot food. This near-invisibility allows them more freedoms than have the wives or handmaids.

[nodorothyparker]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

I also felt bad for Serena. Like Lawrence, she sees the hell that she helped create but unlike Lawrence she has little agency. She tried to make a modest change with sound logic and lost a finger for it. That scene where June convinces Serena to give up Holly/Nicole really got to me. Great acting by Yvonne and EM there.

It's fairly interesting to me comparing Lawrence to Serena and how we as viewers react to each of them.  Part of it, I know, is just the fact that he's something entirely different after two full seasons of unrelenting misery and cruelty to these women and part of it has to be that he did something we wanted him to do and helped Emily get the hell out of Gilead.  Yet we know from Lydia that he was the founder of Gilead's economy and from Mrs. Lawrence that he gave us the Colonies where people are worked to death while handling toxins that slowly poison them.  He's clearly been a very big deal in the hierarchy of Gilead, enough so that he has a fair amount of autonomy to flout Gilead's rules and someone like Lydia can only purse her lips and look the other way.  So it's probably safe to say that he's every bit as complicit as Serena in the end result we're seeing if not more so.  And while we obviously don't know for sure, it seems fairly unlikely Emily is the first handmaid that's been assigned to him with all that that may entail.  We still don't know the full story on Mrs. Lawrence and how he's actually treating her.  

But all of that happened offscreen.  We didn't have to see it.  Instead, we get to be intrigued by his art collection and his choices in music and the way he casually disregards rote Gilead pleasantries.  He can be amusing despite what we know about him because as a man of some standing he has the agency to still have his books and his basic autonomy.  Nobody's likely to ask him too many questions if he, say, decides to take his handmaid for drive.

Meanwhile, we've had two full seasons of watching Serena lash out and abuse the household staff and rightly mostly condemn her for it.  Because even so you're right in that she has little agency to do much else.  If she did, she wouldn't now be missing a finger.  

[WearyTraveler]

42 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Yet we know from Lydia that he was the founder of Gilead's economy and from Mrs. Lawrence that he gave us the Colonies where people are worked to death while handling toxins that slowly poison them.

But do we know for sure these things are true? We hear him complaining that without financial incentive, it is difficult to motivate people to fulfill their job objectives and that he actually wanted to have such a financial motivator.  Regarding the creation of the Colonies, we only have his wife's word for it and it's clear she is not all there.

 

It could be a situation where he was a well regarded famous economist who made recommendations that were not followed, but his name was attached to the plan anyway, to convince anyone who might be dubious at the start of Gilead.  Perhaps he accepted that because they had something on him (maybe related to his wife) and were blackmailing him.

His wife could have confused something he said regarding the colonies as him being the creator of those structures.  Maybe he designed the colonies to work differently and the rulers just did something else.  

 

Maybe it's all as Lydia and the wife say it is, but, as presented on the show it is akin to hearsay, we really don't know how much truth there is in those statements.

 

I am hoping that perhaps next season we get to explore his backstory a bit and get these things confirmed or corrected.

[Earlwoode]

12 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Serena actually seems religious, and she's an asshole often, but she gritted her teeth during the ceremonies.  She MISSES sex.  She hates not reading.  She hates not writing.  She hates knitting.  She hates her teal uniforms.  She hates having a handmaid in her house.  She hates that the men have the only say in everything.  She hates that girls can't read.  She hates the Aunts.

Yeah, strange that lol.  Did she not realize what she was signing on for when she helped write Gilead rules?  I think she wanted the baby because she is bored out of her mind and just wants something TO DO!  Not that I don't think she hasn't a maternal streak - it seems so when she was so gutted to give up the baby.  I can't help but sympathise with her even though I know a lot of people think she is a monster - maybe it's the actress who does such a fantastic job.  While June just irritates me with her smirks and sudden malevolent looks from her underface shots, Serena gets a genuine reaction from me.  I think Yvonne Strahovski (whom I'd never heard of or seen in anything before) is absolutely phenomenal.  I could watch this series just for her performance alone.

[nodorothyparker]

Quote

 

But do we know for sure these things are true? We hear him complaining that without financial incentive, it is difficult to motivate people to fulfill their job objectives and that he actually wanted to have such a financial motivator.  Regarding the creation of the Colonies, we only have his wife's word for it and it's clear she is not all there.

Messed up my quote function.

All of that is entirely possible.  Maybe next season we'll find out that is the real story.  But with only a limited number of scenes across two episode this season, we really only have what they say to go on.  Complaining about unpaid staff not being motivated, for example, feels like it's on the same level of complaint as Serena realizing that none of this was what she intended either even as it's biting her in the ass now.   Lawrence is a far more interesting character if he's one of the men who vastly benefited from his role in creating Gilead who's now experiencing a serious case of buyer's remorse as he sees how it's worked out than if he's just a nice guy who's complicit by a matter of degrees mostly in his failure to push back against it.  We already have that with Nick.

[Token]

Wow, I don't even know how I feel after all that.  So many mixed emotions about this episode, each character, and this season.  You've all pretty much summed up how I feel about it all.  I really hope that they do a much better job in season 3.

[AngelaHunter]

On 7/15/2018 at 9:54 AM, JasonCC said:

There were many unbelievable/out of character moments (stop with the constant hesitating and dawdling in frantic situations already!)

Hell, yes! Meant to mention how it drives me mad when someone is in a desperate situation where haste and stealth are key (June's many escapes/escape attempts) yet will stand in the middle of the road to contemplate things, take yet another trip down memory lane or have a long-drawn out "farewell" scene. I think I may have actually yelled "Just GO, FFS!" out loud. At least Emily didn't mess around or make a speech but did what any normal person would do when fleeing their prison  - she just WENT.

[Veronimo]

22 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Hell, yes! Meant to mention how it drives me mad when someone is in a desperate situation where haste and stealth are key (June's many escapes/escape attempts) yet will stand in the middle of the road to contemplate things, take yet another trip down memory lane or have a long-drawn out "farewell" scene. I think I may have actually yelled "Just GO, FFS!" out loud. At least Emily didn't mess around or make a speech but did what any normal person would do when fleeing their prison  - she just WENT.

I agree, but in all fairness Emily has nothing that ties her to Gilead. Everything she wants and needs is across the border—no need for lengthy flashbacks or contemplative staring into the distance!

[AngelaHunter]

2 minutes ago, Veronimo said:

no need for lengthy flashbacks or contemplative staring into the distance!

No, nothing wrong with flashbacks or staring or pondering or weighing all options but standing in the road right in the middle of a desperate escape attempt where the enemy may appear at any second isn't the time for all that.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, SourK said:

I'm a little bit taken aback by the posts in this thread calling for Fred to be punished by death and Serena to be punished by rape. Why did the sentencing turn out that way?

I've always thought they will bring Jezebel's back, actually I was pleasantly surprised it wasn't included this season.  To make Jezebel's matter, especially in an already rather large cast?  Having Serena sent there just seems the most logical and compelling way to make Jezebel's matter in the story.  Why would it be more interesting that just having Serena hang next to Fred?  Because Serena would have to see just how much of a sham the so-called pious Commanders really are. She'd be interacting with them in an entirely new way, not as a wife, but as a whore.  Fred mentioned last season that many of the women there had been intellectuals, the feminists, etc. 

So, putting aside the sex/rapes, Serena would not only have to confront the truth about the world she helped create, but she could also read, have unsupervised talks without the "by his hand" bullshit, and become aware of the black market, all kinds of things.  It could fuel her possible resistance or Mayday career as well.

Aside from that?  I don't want to lose the actress from the screen, and really, colonies, the wall, or Jezebel's are the only options for her when Fred goes down.  The show has certainly shown that Fred is not walking the line.  He breaks too many rules.  Fred dead doesn't bother me. 

In addition, I think we are all tired of life at the Wallingford house.

Also, I have a secret hope that since Serena is considered "barren" they won't bother with birth control or sterilizing her.  I'd love to see her end up pregnant, with a baby of her own.  Imagine the complications of that!  Serena would be very much in June's shoes then.

7 hours ago, dleighg said:

I tend to agree (I love to cook and bake), but I have to admit we haven't seen Rita scrubbing toilets, have we?

Or doing all of the laundry by hand, beating rugs, or all of the other chores that fall to her, without the aid of modern appliances.  I'm sure she's also responsible for bringing in the wood, and getting the fires going, cleaning the ashes out.  Hell, for all we know, she also chops the wood.

7 hours ago, marinw said:

I'm sure she does that too. It is probably her job to inspect said toliet and report if the Handmaid is on her period. As for domestic stuff, it's one thing to choose to do housework and cooking because you enjoy it or if it's your job, it's another thing to be forced into it. But it would still beat being a Handmaid.

I'd rather be in Jezebels.  At least I could read and often speak openly, watch TV, listen to music, the food looks better too.

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

As I recall, she didn't turn down an offer to stay in Canada - she turned down an offer to go to Hawaii, in what remains of the United States. Where her welcome would be far worse than it was in Canada - and if the spy was BSing her (which he undoubtedly was, in my mind), she would become a symbol for their propaganda pieces, and would have even less agency than she does in Gilead, or even be charged with war or human rights crimes. She's smart enough to understand that shiny offer came with a big downside.

Yup, he didn't offer her immunity.  "All you've offered me so far is treason and coconuts..."  She also saw how hated she is by people outside of Gilead, and I think, realized it was true inside Gilead as well, but they had to hide it from her there.

54 minutes ago, Veronimo said:

I agree, but in all fairness Emily has nothing that ties her to Gilead. Everything she wants and needs is across the border—no need for lengthy flashbacks or contemplative staring into the distance!

She's had plenty of staring into the distance and close ups, pretty much all of the women have.  I think the directors are obsessed with women's faces that have no make up.

The directors/editors are also apparently obsessed with putting June in slow motion whenever speed is called for, which, aside from being annoying, makes June looks particularly stupid.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Umbelina

[Squirrely]

3 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

  I think Yvonne Strahovski (whom I'd never heard of or seen in anything before) is absolutely phenomenal.  I could watch this series just for her performance alone.

I knew her from Dexter. Granted, she didn't show up til later seasons when the show wasn't as strong, but her performance sure was. She plays the crazy quite well! And in a weird twist, her character's name was Hannah. ;)

 

 

I've binged the entire show twice now in my free month of Hulu. Not sure if I'll be back next year or not. It really needs to have an end goal and be wrapped up in S3. I'm going to read some recaps when it starts up to decide. If June is back at the Waterfords' house it'll be a hard no from me, but I just can't fathom how that would happen.  

Edited July 16, 2018 by Squirrely
Making tenses match

[Veronimo]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She's had plenty of staring into the distance and close ups, pretty much all of the women have.  I think the directors are obsessed with women's faces that have no make up.

The directors/editors are also apparently obsessed with putting June in slow motion whenever speed is called for, which, aside from being annoying, makes June looks particularly stupid.

Ha! The show is definitely a study in EM's face; I feel like I know every inch of it. I do think it's a great choice to film her makeup-free, though; if she had even a touch, I'm sure we'd all be complaining about it. 

I have to go back and re-watch because I've never noticed that June is consistently slow when speed is called for! I remember her being pretty quick on her feet during the initial run (where she ends up in the refrigerated meat truck), and she stomped around as quickly as a 9-month pregnant woman could possibly stomp at the summer house, but since all of you have mentioned it, I'm sure I'm suffering from selective memory. Of course the good-bye with Serena and Nichole was excruciatingly slow...

[Ashforth]

10 hours ago, SourK said:

I'm a little bit taken aback by the posts in this thread calling for Fred to be punished by death and Serena to be punished by rape.

I don't think I've seen any posts calling for Serena to be raped. Did I miss something?

Ahhh, okay I think I understand now. It's due to people saying to send her Jezebel's, right? I can't see that happening.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Ashforth

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Squirrely said:

I knew her from Dexter. Granted, she didn't show up til later seasons when the show wasn't as strong, but her performance sure was.

That's the only place I saw her as well. Her character killed the show, IMO, especially since Scott Buck was so mesmerized by her he felt the need to bring her back in the last season, where she transformed from a merciless murderer who killed anyone who got in her way to a sad, weepy little  victim of domestic abuse. I thought her acting was abysmal, but now after seeing her in this show, I realize she did the best she could with the dumb, idiotic material she was given by the smitten Buck. Her Serena is impressive!

27 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I don't think I've seen any posts calling for Serena to be raped. Did I miss something?

I  miss a lot, due to seeing this about 5 days after the majority here have seen it, but I don't recall anyone feeling that rape would be a just punishment, even for Serena. although personally I'd prefer that to having a finger cut off or an eye removed. 

[Squirrely]

@AngelaHunter That's how I looked at it. She and the rest of the cast did their best with what they were given. Similar to how I feel with Joseph Fiennes and some others on this show. 

[Quickbeam]

Yvonne starred in “Chuck” and was really good in it. I really enjoy her in this role. 

[marinw]

The discovery of the Bible answers my earlier question about whether or not Eden could read. Eden may have been homeschooled, but at least she was schooled. Unlike Hanna, who may have started to learn how to read and write  in school but may have since forgotten.

The boredom of Gilead has been mentioned by others in this forum. Reading and writing is such a huge part of my life, I can’t imagine being happy without books, magazines and newspapers.

[Earlwoode]

11 hours ago, marinw said:

 

The discovery of the Bible answers my earlier question about whether or not Eden could read. Eden may have been homeschooled, but at least she was schooled. Unlike Hanna, who may have started to learn how to read and write  in school but may have since forgotten.

 

The timeline of this show is one huge, gaping problem.  Now, Eden obviously went to school (or was home schooled) because if she was about 15 when she was executed, that means she’s was about 12/13 when Gilead came into being, plenty of time for her to have learned to read and write.  Because based on Hannah’s age when she wa captured and her age when we see her now, no more than a couple of years can possibly have passed.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Earlwoode

[Veronimo]

5 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

The timeline of this show is one huge, gaping problem.  Now, Eden obviously went to school (or was home schooled) because if she was about 15 when she was executed, that means she’s was about 12/13 when Gilead came into being, plenty of time for her to have learned to read and write.  Because based on Hannah’s age when she wa captured and her age when we see her now, no more than a couple of years can possibly have passed.

After Luke's escape, we see him in Little America and—in what I think is the only reference to time the show ever offers—they tell us it's "3 years later." This is also when he's given the note from June. Factoring in June's pregnancy, that means we're almost 4 years in. This would make Hannah 7 or 8 now, I believe? I do think she looked/acted about that age when we saw her in the summer house. It must be so difficult to age a child actor up or down! I guess that's why there was a different young actor playing Hannah in some of this season's flashbacks...

[Pondlass1]

On 7/12/2018 at 7:12 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

Holy crap June moves SO SLOW when time is of the essence.

This is more irritating to me than anything else.  I guess it's supposed to build suspense, but sometimes all I can think of is that weird old film where the crazy actress says "I'm ready for my close up now".  Close ups of June's reactions take up way too much time.

[Clanstarling]

20 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

This is more irritating to me than anything else.  I guess it's supposed to build suspense, but sometimes all I can think of is that weird old film where the crazy actress says "I'm ready for my close up now".  Close ups of June's reactions take up way too much time.

Ah, Sunset Boulevard - and the only reason I know that movie is because I've seen that clip over and over again (not necessarily willingly).

June's dawdling has been excruciating to me. You do see it in other things - but never quiet so deliberately slow, generally people are hurrying while some circumstance or another slows them down. Not the person whose neck is on the line.

[Pondlass1]

That scene at the other house when Serena yelled and told Fred a few home truths - I thought she knew what kind of a man he was.  But obviously not.  Why on earth would she think he would go along with her idea - especially with the board of directors(?) looking on?  Did she not see the dark furious look on his face?  Does she really think he gives a fig about her notions?  She has zero standing here.  She's just a wife who can wear teal.

She's lucky she just lost the pinky finger - she humiliated him.  It could have been a lot worse. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Pondlass1

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

This is more irritating to me than anything else.  I guess it's supposed to build suspense, but sometimes all I can think of is that weird old film where the crazy actress says "I'm ready for my close up now".  Close ups of June's reactions take up way too much time.

 

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Ah, Sunset Boulevard - and the only reason I know that movie is because I've seen that clip over and over again (not necessarily willingly).

June's dawdling has been excruciating to me. You do see it in other things - but never quiet so deliberately slow, generally people are hurrying while some circumstance or another slows them down. Not the person whose neck is on the line.

The writers and directors need to knock that shit off.  It's making June look like an idiot.

While the hospital escape was so tense and believable, as she ran like hell, not even knowing where she was going, just trying to follow those red marks, you could hear her breathing, and feel the tension.  This time, she was like Prissy reluctantly returning to Melanie and Scarlett while troops were invading and Melanie was giving birth.

Get it together directors.

[Anela]

On 7/15/2018 at 11:14 PM, AngelaHunter said:

(I wish I could watch this the same day as all of you) I guess everything's been said - Com. Lawrence is a quirky fruitcake, and I think his wife is as well, but at least he was entertaining and helpful. This show needs more characters like him so we can get a breather from the constant damned misery. Loved his music - ah, classics, and don't anyone dare call it strange!:p

"Gilligan's Island", where the never-ending escape plans are always foiled? Yep.

Since I have nothing of import to add, I just must say that I'm impressed with Jospeh Fiennes. He is doing a killer job playing the most despicable, weaselly, smarmy, low-life, spineless cocksucker ever. I bet he's the type who goes to prostitutes and pays them to debase him.

That's pretty much the way I see her, and she takes out her anger and frustration on those who can't fight back. However, she turned down the offer to stay in Canada and be free. Maybe I'm obtuse but I didn't understand her reasoning for that. She did seem truly distressed over the heinous muders of a young girl and her boyfriend so she can't really believe all that cult-ish claptrap she mouthes or she would have thought Eden got her just desserts. 

 

She's much too proud, or she was, before Eden was executed, and she realized what her baby girl was in for. 

On 7/16/2018 at 6:52 AM, alexvillage said:

Pride. Many people are like this, especially people who rely in strong ideology/religion to justify their choices. I see it happening a lot in real life, in small daily actions that don't have an obvious impact in other people's lives, or in their own lives. When the impact is felt, people rationalize to justify what they did or didn't do.

Serena might have had the secret urge to stay in Canada but that would have forced her to recognize that what she saw as a better society was too flawed, that her ideals were harming end not helping at all. She is bothered by what she sees but while she will maybe try to change it or even suffer with what could be called guilty (although not acknowledged as such) she will not openly accept that their little project of a country is nothing more than a misogynist dictatorship (racist too but the show dropped the ball on that) 

Yep, this. 

@SourK I don't want Serena to be raped. I know she helped to create all of this, but I don't want to see her go through that. I DO want to see Fred deal with all kinds of torture, that goes for all of the men who are playing giddily in their little insane world. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Anela

[Anela]

On 7/16/2018 at 4:53 PM, Veronimo said:

Ha! The show is definitely a study in EM's face; I feel like I know every inch of it. I do think it's a great choice to film her makeup-free, though; if she had even a touch, I'm sure we'd all be complaining about it. 

I have to go back and re-watch because I've never noticed that June is consistently slow when speed is called for! I remember her being pretty quick on her feet during the initial run (where she ends up in the refrigerated meat truck), and she stomped around as quickly as a 9-month pregnant woman could possibly stomp at the summer house, but since all of you have mentioned it, I'm sure I'm suffering from selective memory. Of course the good-bye with Serena and Nichole was excruciatingly slow...

I've frozen in fear before, but under other circumstances, I flew into action. I don't understand her just freezing there with her BABY! I'm glad she didn't just forget she had another daughter, I'm glad she's still important, but other people were in danger there (Emily, the baby, the driver). 

On 7/16/2018 at 7:09 PM, AngelaHunter said:

That's the only place I saw her as well. Her character killed the show, IMO, especially since Scott Buck was so mesmerized by her he felt the need to bring her back in the last season, where she transformed from a merciless murderer who killed anyone who got in her way to a sad, weepy little  victim of domestic abuse. I thought her acting was abysmal, but now after seeing her in this show, I realize she did the best she could with the dumb, idiotic material she was given by the smitten Buck. Her Serena is impressive!

I  miss a lot, due to seeing this about 5 days after the majority here have seen it, but I don't recall anyone feeling that rape would be a just punishment, even for Serena. although personally I'd prefer that to having a finger cut off or an eye removed. 

I wouldn't have minded her as sad and weepy, if she hadn't been a cold-blooded killer before. The last season was dumb, and part of what ruined it for me was the "true love" crap suddenly happening in those last two seasons. I liked his sister, too, and

Hannah trying to kill her, didn't leave her in my good graces

. but she was great in Chuck. I love that show. 

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

  This time, she was like Prissy reluctantly returning to Melanie and Scarlett while troops were invading and Melanie was giving birth.

Yes, as I mentioned that bugged me most in this ep. Emergency!! while Prissy is strolling down the street, humming and running her fingers along the pickets, or June, gazing at a picture, standing in the street for what felt like ages or with Serena who wanted to dandle the baby with drawn-out teary goodbyes and June says, 'Okay" with the bad guys and sirens and flames all around. Take your time, Serena. Not saying this is only in this show. It's a worn-out plot tactic that has been used, re-used and over-used for many decades: Someone, in a desperate bid to escape/bad guy who finally has good guy at his mercy - they take the time to talk talk talk/gloat about their motivations and their feelings and (in the case of the bad guy with gun in hand cornering good guy) goes into minute detail about how he managed to catch good guy, and confesses all his crimes and details how and why he'll enjoy killing good guy. Of course, everyone who is desperate to get away talks for so goddam long it gives the cavalry/army/police just enough time to get there at the last minute and save the day. This trope is so old, trite and weary it needs to be retired but you can still see it enacted weekly on shows like "The Walking Dead". Yawn.

Unlike June whose life was hanging in the balance, at least Prissy had a good excuse for her dawdling: she had no reason whatsoever to care about the coming baby or the Union army.

[Umbelina]

At least with Prissy it made sense.  She was terrified to go to the "hospital" with all the dying men, and she was equally terrified to face Scarlett and tell her she'd hadn't gone.

I do NOT blame the actresses at all.  It's obviously a directing and editing choice.  Actors usually have to film scenes several ways, and rarely do they know which choices the showrunner will make.

As for Serena?  It's not about wanting to see her "raped."  It's about keeping the actress on screen in the most believable way, and the most dramatic way.  At Jezebel's she can play so many things, get involved with Mayday possibly, and the black market, and really see what Gilead IS, not what it pretends to be.  Her imprisonment is more interesting to me than just seeing her hang, and the only other punishment option is the nuke colonies, which I don't think adds a damn thing to the show.  Seeing them was important, but revisiting them?  Not needed unless there is a revolt of some kind, or invading USA loyalists, and I doubt that would happen before Serena died there.

That is all my supposition by the way, not a spoiler at all, at least nothing I've seen.  It is based on a few things in the epilogue of the books, but there is nothing specific about Serena there.  We do know that

Spoiler

Fred is disgraced and executed, but nothing of what happens to her.  I think the show has set up Fred's demise well enough, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens next season.

[Earlwoode]

On 7/19/2018 at 6:24 AM, Veronimo said:

This is also when he's given the note from June. Factoring in June's pregnancy, that means we're almost 4 years in

Ok even if it has been that long, Eden would still have had plenty of time to have learned to read and write.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Earlwoode

[Veronimo]

1 hour ago, Earlwoode said:

Ok even if it has been that long, Eden would still have had plenty of time to have learned to read and write.

Oh, for sure! She would have been schooled in some way up until she was about 11 years old, correct?