S01.E05: Went to Market

[oompa]

Quote

After hearing Logan's plan to expand in to local TV, Kendall begins to plot a vote of no confidence against his father. Greg drives his ornery grandfather Ewan from Canada to New York for a Thanksgiving reunion with Logan. Tom grows increasingly concerned about the terms of his prenuptial agreement with Shiv, and recruits Greg for a clandestine task.

Edited July 2, 2018 by oompa

[oompa]

The visuals and the style of the intro reminds me of the flashbacks in the movie The Game. The shot with the father standing next to the son is almost an exact copy.

I'm hating this family more and more each week. However, the family has an interesting combination of evilness, incompetence, obliviousness, and neediness. 

[terrymct]

Oh, Greg isn't half the idiot they all think he is.  I'm sure he was recording that phone call with Tom given the very specific questions he was asking Tom and repeating.   Greg still has the time bomb he probably doesn't understand yet either....Kendall's pal meeting with the head of the rival company/network.

I'm starting to love this show.  All the Roy family members (other than Marcia as far as I can tell) are horrible in their own specific ways.  

[Eyes High]

James Cromwell was fantastic as Ewan, but the writing (as usual with this show) did not do him justice. So many great actors, such subpar material.

Logan is "ex-Canadian"? Interesting.

Is Roman supposed to be closeted? That comment from Grace about how they only had sex every six months, the multiple scenes with his hot trainer in his face...

Can't wait until Greg buries them all, or at least Tom.

It's almost impossible to root for Kendall when he's such a little bitch. Logan mocks his child's disability and later hits that child and he...objects loudly and removes the child? The fuck?

11 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I'm starting to love this show.  All the Roy family members (other than Marcia as far as I can tell) are horrible in their own specific ways.  

Marcia's just as awful as the rest of them. She's just smarter than they are, so it's less obvious.

[northboundtrain]

The Marcia subplot is great. The kids see everything she does as manipulative (which, of course they would see it that way), but the show also throws in little touches the kids aren't around to witness, like Marcia pushing Logan to attend the RecNY ball. I like the idea that she's playing everyone, but no matter what's going on, it's just a lot of fun to watch.

I also like the way the writers and Jeremy Strong are playing Kendall's dilemma. I said in the last episode thread that I never saw the character as power-hungry, and that comes through this episode quite clearly. It's not just that he's ineffectual or cowardly, but that the whole reason he's even involved in this mess to the degree that he is is because of his complicated feelings for Logan, which are now even MORE complicated by the fact that he's now thinking that Logan's no longer in his right mind. It was hard enough for him to deal with the old Logan, and now here's a "new" one, and Kendall can't tell, and none of the people advising him can tell, how deep or permanent that separation between the two Logans runs, so he's flailing about more than usual. I can't help but feel for the guy.

Those were some interesting scenes with Shiv and Grace, but it only reminded me that I'd like to see more of Shiv in the political realm. Hopefully we'll get that in the next few episodes.

For the most part, I found Greg irritating in past episodes. This was the first one where he actually made me laugh out loud several times, mostly because of his dynamic with Ewan. Comedy gold.

I also appreciated the shading done to Roman's character this episode -- the revelations about his sex life with Grace and his embarrassment that the turkey movie was doing big business. Speaking of Roman...

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Is Roman supposed to be closeted? That comment from Grace about how they only had sex every six months, the multiple scenes with his hot trainer in his face...

Not sure. I did notice the scene the other day where he was getting after the trainer (can't remember what the issue was), but figured it was just another example of Roman enjoying the power he has over people. Then last week there was that business with the waiter, and now Grace's comment. So, it could be.

[Arcey]

Why does Logan have a Scottish accent, and his brother doesn't have one?

[terrymct]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

James Cromwell was fantastic as Ewan, but the writing (as usual with this show) did not do him justice. So many great actors, such subpar material.

Logan is "ex-Canadian"? Interesting.

Is Roman supposed to be closeted? That comment from Grace about how they only had sex every six months, the multiple scenes with his hot trainer in his face...

Can't wait until Greg buries them all, or at least Tom.

It's almost impossible to root for Kendall when he's such a little bitch. Logan mocks his child's disability and later hits that child and he...objects loudly and removes the child? The fuck?

Marcia's just as awful as the rest of them. She's just smarter than they are, so it's less obvious.

In the first two episodes, I thought Logan was a complete monster and Marcia was one for horning in on the company and restricting the kids' access.  As we learn more about the kids, it seems like Marcia's behavior toward them is actually fairly sensible given that the kids range from being stupid (all the sons, really) to being craven (Kendall) to having a pathological lack of empathy (Roman completely and Shiv to a degree) to being wholly out of touch with reality (most of them in varying ways).  Logan is a massive a#$hole, but his move to limit his kids' control in the company and putting Marcia in as a controlling force was smart and shows that he knows the kids well.   His massive failing, other than being mean, is that he raised those kids to be like that or allowed them to be raised like that.   The kids are ego first, skill and capabilities a distant second.

Kendall wants to be a big deal like his father but he's not as smart as his father.  He's willing to be nasty and mean like the old man, but he's sucks at it. 

Shiv thinks she's brilliant and is very likely much smarter than any of her brothers.  She doesn't recognize how much of what she has and what she is comes directly from her father's money and empire.

Connor is stupid, out of touch, and unable to exert even the most basic control over himself.  He can never run any part of the business. 

Roman is mean, pathologically lacks empathy, and is stupid and vain.   He wants a title and to be able to wield power over other people but has no interest in actual work.

Tom is a social climber to the nth degree and is mean at his core.  On some level, though, he'd really like to be a running an organization and be recognized as an equal at the big table.  He's finding out that the Roys don't really want him for that role.   The difference between his meanness and that of Roman's is that no one is going to go behind Tom and cover up the damage he does.  When he falls, the family is going to let him fall.

Greg was a pothead with low motivation, who with a push from his mother saw a way to jump up a few levels into the family business.  They all think he's dumb as a rock, but he's sort of the opposite of them.  His cousins are polished but broken inside.  He's a hot mess on the outside but there appears to be the germ of intelligence and savvy inside him that may grow.  He's the wild card.

Marcia is on Logan's side.  She's protecting him from his idiot kids, both because he's her meal ticket and I think because she does care for him.  She's strong enough to stand up to the kids because she knows Logan's frank assessment of each of them.

1 hour ago, Arcey said:

Why does Logan have a Scottish accent, and his brother doesn't have one?

I was curious about that as well.  Ewan was taken to Canada at a younger age than Logan?  They need to explain that little tidbit.

[sadie]

I think the mistake the writers are making is, other than money, why would anyone tolerate these people? They don’t need to make them likable but they also haven’t given any of them any charm. Shiv might be the worst, she’s quiet about it but you sense she’s the most self centered jerk of them all. The way she kept referring to the fiancés “lawyer” aka his mom was just patronizing. I mean why marry this guy if you have so little respect for him and made it obvious they weren’t going to be spending Christmas or any other holiday with his family. I don’t think Logan is faking but I do think he’s goes in and out of lucidness so this might be interesting. 

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, terrymct said:

Greg was a pothead with low motivation, who with a push from his mother saw a way to jump up a few levels into the family business.  They all think he's dumb as a rock, but he's sort of the opposite of them.  His cousins are polished but broken inside.  

Are Logan’s kids polished, though, fine clothes aside? They’re crass, they’re crude, they’re extremely rude, and as pointed out on another thread their profanity-laced, inelegant speech betrays no sign of the expensive educations they undoubtedly received. 

[TimWil]

I think it was established that Logan spent his first few years in Scotland but grew up outside of Quebec. 

[BlackberryJam]

So, I'm starting to like the peripheral characters. Give me more Jerri, Frank and Stewie.

[terrymct]

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Are Logan’s kids polished, though, fine clothes aside? They’re crass, they’re crude, they’re extremely rude, and as pointed out on another thread their profanity-laced, inelegant speech betrays no sign of the expensive educations they undoubtedly received. 

That's more or less what I meant.  Image, but if you speak to them you get something very different.

[Eyes High]

14 hours ago, TimWil said:

I think it was established that Logan spent his first few years in Scotland but grew up outside of Quebec. 

Not outside Quebec, but in it. Found this quote from the pilot:

Quote

 

Logan Roy. Born in Dundee, Scotland, 80 years ago today, raised in Quebec by an uncle with a print shop and a few advertising billboards and an aunt with a herd of cattle.

 

I'm sure the Canada biographical details were intended to obscure the resemblance to the obvious inspiration for Logan Roy (Rupert Murdoch), but if we're talking Canadian media barons, I can't help but be reminded of Conrad Black.

[scrb]

I don't even remember Grace from the previous episodes.

She came off like a bitch putting down Shiv's candidate but then went out punching.  Probably the last of her.

And Willa put Tom in his place too.  Whatever arrangement she has with Conor, it doesn't sound like she wants to have more to do with him or the family.

There's so much accumulated resentment and hate and they did a good job of spewing it out, showing the state of the relationships between several of these characters.

Of course the best exchanges were between Ewan and Logan.  Ewan is all about ethics, while Logan apparently made a lot of money peddling lies.  But it's not clear Ewan will turn on his brother, even if he considers him an ex-human.

Quote

Kendall wants to be a big deal like his father but he's not as smart as his father.  He's willing to be nasty and mean like the old man, but he's sucks at it. 

In the pilot, Logan talked about swinging a big dick.  That is what Logan tried, with all the trash talking he did in the first couple of episodes against his rival.  But yeah, he's not at his core a ruthless asshole like Logan.

Roman is an asshole but probably not so ruthless.  The success of the turkey movie that he tried to stop upsets him, makes him throw a tantrum because they were watching it.  But that's all he can do, throw a hissy fit which just underlines how ineffectual he is.

Shiv trains people to lie, as someone put it.  She's going to keep the "shit happens" clause in the prenup -- she travels a lot and Tom doesn't.

Greg may yet have some ruthlessness beneath the aw shucks exterior.

[sugarbaker design]

This comedy is getting more savage week by week.  It's King (Roy) Lear updated to a Rupert Murdoch setting.

Logan Roy's barely veiled contempt at all blood relatives is hysterical.

[cork dork]

I love this show and all of its absurd dysfunction. 

Reading documents before shredding them gave Greg some insight to what’s going on. I can’t wait for the reveal on the docs he kept. 

As for Marcia, I think she’s got her own con going and was the one that notified the guy Kendall was “negotiating” with (back in ep 1) about Logan’s health scare/hospitalization. I’m still waiting for Kendall to question why/how that guy knew about what’d just happened with his dad before he did. 

[RedDelicious]

So wait, Willa was not the same girl that Connor brought to the hospital, correct? Is she a high end girl and that is the reference Roman was making?

[TimWil]

Yes, Willa was the same girl Connor was necking with at the hospital.

[nilyank]

15 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

So wait, Willa was not the same girl that Connor brought to the hospital, correct? Is she a high end girl and that is the reference Roman was making?

Same girl and apparently we find out why the family acted all weirded out that Connor brought her to the hospital. She must be expensive.

[RedDelicious]

Thanks all! I totally didn't recognize her from the hospital.

[greyhorse]

19 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

So wait, Willa was not the same girl that Connor brought to the hospital, correct? Is she a high end girl and that is the reference Roman was making?

Yeah, I guess she really IS a call girl.  I think at the hospital they just made references to it, but at the time I thought it was just because she was semi-attractive and much younger than Connor.  The scene at the end where he is asleep and she is sitting up in bed staring makes us think that even with this financial arrangement, she really doesn't want to be part of this nonsense and would probably rather be hooking up with multiple other men each night.  Money can't buy you happiness, as the saying goes.

I absolutely find Tom to be the worst of all of them.  His character is written so over-the-top it's comical, but I really do think there are people like this in corporate America.  He's not at the top, but he's striving to get there, so he exerts his pseudo-power by belittling those beneath him.  And he thinks he can most easily do to the family patsy in Greg.  Pretty smart of Greg to keep a copy of it seems like random first pages to the files.  What do you bet that Greg loses his backpack?  Either that or they find a stored digital copy of everything that was copied on the copy machine.  I think my copier at work has that option, so you always got to be careful what you put on there.

I agree with those that think Roman is closeted.  Certainly a lot of signs and the comment from Grace about having sex only once every 6 months is certainly suggestive.  Who exactly is Grace?  I don't remember her at all from the previous episodes.

I think of all the siblings, I find Shiv the most real.  Connor is probably the least objectionable because he's the one with the least ambition.  But the character development of Shiv really comes across as the most authentic.  We know that she won't cave into Tom's lawyer mother, so it'll be fun to see Tom get bent over and shafted with the prenup.  What can Tom expect anyway?  "You come from money, I don't."

So Logan remembering everything at the very end?  It suggests he has periods of lucency where he thinks crystal clear?  I wonder if they're going to take it to a level where he acts all crazy but really knows what he is doing.  Should be fun to watch.

[RedDelicious]

Grace is Roman's wife and they have a young daughter. The daughter was with Roman in the helicopter at one point, and he was brushing the hair out of her face.

Willa might be the most likable character of the whole bunch, save for Marcia at this point.

[greyhorse]

Forgot to add that I love the haunting score played at the end of each episode, as we get a brief snippet of each character deep in thought, pondering the day's mess and what is to come.  Just beautifully shot and makes you wanting more.

I'm really enjoying this series after reluctantly watching only because there wasn't anything that caught my interest.

[lazylou]

I can't believe so many seem to like Marcia.  I think she is conniving to take over the company herself and the kids are correct to distrust her.  She clearly hides Logan's condition and then pushes him to make public appearances.  This does not seem like a devoted wife, disinterested in company politics. Note her son's promotion, unknown to everyone ...except Logan and Marcia.

[scrb]

Maybe it's a relative thing.  So far Marcia hasn't shown herself to be as awful or petty as just about every other character.

She has to be in her 60s and doesn't know about running a large corporation?

Seems like she could wield just a lot of power by inheriting all of Logan's shares.  Then instead of working every day, just make the board and the CEO jump to do her bidding.

Shiv is mainly a large shareholder and can make her brothers or the other executives listen.  She even got Tom an executive post.

So Marcia should be able to get her son an executive job as well.

[poeticlicensed]

Matthew Macfayden is killing it as a little bitch. Such a change from his other roles and so weird to hear him speak with an american accent.

[clyo22]

If Roman is closeted then at least Kendall must know. A few episodes back Roman said, while they were in the office that when he (Roman) sees a handsome waiter, he (Roman) only thinks about how to get him (the waiter) to have sex with him. I am paraphrasing because I can't (won't) write what he actually said. I don't remember the context of the conversation but I remember thinking "oh so he's bi!". I had completely forgotten that Grace was his wife. Last episode I thought she was just a girlfriend. I do remember her and their daughter from the first episode now.

I guess the only character I don't dislike is Kendall's wife. Kendall himself is too much of a coward.

Edited July 8, 2018 by clyo22

[jeansheridan]

On 7/2/2018 at 7:36 PM, BlackberryJam said:

So, I'm starting to like the peripheral characters. Give me more Jerri, Frank and Stewie.

I am here for Jerri and the assistants who somehow manage not to roll their eyes. I enjoy Marcia's effortless elegance too. Her warmth toward her son. Her excellent manners. 

So Brian Cox can totally drop his accent when he wishes. I feel like Logan enjoys having a bit of a brogue.  Plus angry Scotsman or angry Canadian?  What feels more grand? Whereas his brother can't be bothered. Plus Cromwell is actually American, a fact I forget. 

I love awkward family dinners so this was a win for me. 

I love Greg wandering on the edges like a wise Fool. He is my favorite. Plus I love how he towers over them all.

Finally, I need to meet Tom's mom. I want her to be played by Judith Light. He is not a good person, alas. What monster raised him?

[showme]

On 7/2/2018 at 10:35 PM, TimWil said:

I think it was established that Logan spent his first few years in Scotland but grew up outside of Quebec. 

Outside of Quebec? What does that mean? It was clearly indicated that he grew up in Canada, probably IN Quebec,  but made it big in the US, hence "ex-Canadian". 

[preeya]

On 7/2/2018 at 11:22 AM, terrymct said:

Kendall wants to be a big deal like his father but he's not as smart as his father.  He's willing to be nasty and mean like the old man, but he's sucks at it. 

Shiv thinks she's brilliant and is very likely much smarter than any of her brothers.  She doesn't recognize how much of what she has and what she is comes directly from her father's money and empire.

Connor is stupid, out of touch, and unable to exert even the most basic control over himself.  He can never run any part of the business. 

Roman is mean, pathologically lacks empathy, and is stupid and vain.   He wants a title and to be able to wield power over other people but has no interest in actual work.

Tom is a social climber to the nth degree and is mean at his core.  On some level, though, he'd really like to be a running an organization and be recognized as an equal at the big table.  He's finding out that the Roys don't really want him for that role.   The difference between his meanness and that of Roman's is that no one is going to go behind Tom and cover up the damage he does.  When he falls, the family is going to let him fall.

Greg was a pothead with low motivation, who with a push from his mother saw a way to jump up a few levels into the family business.  They all think he's dumb as a rock, but he's sort of the opposite of them.  His cousins are polished but broken inside.  He's a hot mess on the outside but there appears to be the germ of intelligence and savvy inside him that may grow.  He's the wild card.

In other words, a family of complete DOUCHE BAGS.

[retired watcher]

What does Shiv see in that doofus Tom?

[showme]

8 hours ago, retired watcher said:

What does Shiv see in that doofus Tom?

Controllable. She doesn't want an equal.

[Snewtsie]

The problem with starting to watch a series late is that I miss out on the dialogue here on the thread!  I'm enjoying the show but I do feel as though we've stalled a bit. We've gotten enough info to understand the characters to a point, and to see that while we might empathize at times with them in certain situations, overall they have few redeeming qualities (except for Greg & Marcia, but let's face it- the jury is still out on Marcia as we know the least about her).  Now I'm hoping the plot will move forward.

What I keep getting hung up on is ...If Logan wanted one of his kids to succeed him, why didn't he ever give them proper training & mentoring to understand the complexities of running a conglomerate?  You know, start them in lower positions like Directors or VPs to give them experience. People cannot simply step into a CEO or COO role.  Logan, who is supposedly a self made man, gave none of his children this advantage, and instead shows disdain for Kendell who is the only one trying to do a serious job.

I'm struck with how cold Shiv is to offer Tom a prenup that is so slanted against him. It's one thing to protect premarital property, it's another thing to eliminate any inkling of respect & fairness. Tom is clearly a sadist & sociopath, but she clearly sees him as a tool she can mistreat.  If it weren't for his lawyer/mother he would never even know.  The writers named her Shiv for a reason, after all.

Like everyone else on this thread, I am most fascinated with Marcia. I suspect she will slowly be revealed to be the most shrewd of all, and the smartest.  I am anxious to see how her story develops.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Snewtsie said:

What I keep getting hung up on is ...If Logan wanted one of his kids to succeed him, why didn't he ever give them proper training & mentoring to understand the complexities of running a conglomerate?  You know, start them in lower positions like Directors or VPs to give them experience. People cannot simply step into a CEO or COO role.  Logan, who is supposedly a self made man, gave none of his children this advantage, and instead shows disdain for Kendell who is the only one trying to do a serious job.

Because he doesn't really want them to succeed him. He's not a healthy person who knows he's mortal so is training his kids to run his business. He sees running the business as some proof of being a superior being and always wants to be reassured that only he is superior. His childrearing makes sense if you think that his goal is controlling the kids and making them beholden to him rather than raising them to be successful independent people.

[Snewtsie]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Because he doesn't really want them to succeed him. He's not a healthy person who knows he's mortal so is training his kids to run his business. He sees running the business as some proof of being a superior being and always wants to be reassured that only he is superior. His childrearing makes sense if you think that his goal is controlling the kids and making them beholden to him rather than raising them to be successful independent people.

This makes sense.  It's so messed up.

[scrb]

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Because he doesn't really want them to succeed him. He's not a healthy person who knows he's mortal so is training his kids to run his business. He sees running the business as some proof of being a superior being and always wants to be reassured that only he is superior. His childrearing makes sense if you think that his goal is controlling the kids and making them beholden to him rather than raising them to be successful independent people.

44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

6 hours ago, Snewtsie said:

The problem with starting to watch a series late is that I miss out on the dialogue here on the thread!  I'm enjoying the show but I do feel as though we've stalled a bit. We've gotten enough info to understand the characters to a point, and to see that while we might empathize at times with them in certain situations, overall they have few redeeming qualities (except for Greg & Marcia, but let's face it- the jury is still out on Marcia as we know the least about her).  Now I'm hoping the plot will move forward.

What I keep getting hung up on is ...If Logan wanted one of his kids to succeed him, why didn't he ever give them proper training & mentoring to understand the complexities of running a conglomerate?  You know, start them in lower positions like Directors or VPs to give them experience. People cannot simply step into a CEO or COO role.  Logan, who is supposedly a self made man, gave none of his children this advantage, and instead shows disdain for Kendell who is the only one trying to do a serious job.

I'm struck with how cold Shiv is to offer Tom a prenup that is so slanted against him. It's one thing to protect premarital property, it's another thing to eliminate any inkling of respect & fairness. Tom is clearly a sadist & sociopath, but she clearly sees him as a tool she can mistreat.  If it weren't for his lawyer/mother he would never even know.  The writers named her Shiv for a reason, after all.

Like everyone else on this thread, I am most fascinated with Marcia. I suspect she will slowly be revealed to be the most shrewd of all, and the smartest.  I am anxious to see how her story develops.

The kids do go through training, different parts of the business.

Kendal worked at one of the newspapers as well as oversaw the entertainment division that included Cruises.

Roman was kept on a tight leash under Frank, which is why he hates Frank.  But he was for example at one of the movie studios and tried to kill a movie he didn't like.  But his ex and some kids enjoy the movie.

[Blakeston]

I don't buy that Greg would know anything about the Iranian revolution that wasn't depicted in Argo. (And he said that "students" were the ones piecing together the shredded documents, which isn't how it was depicted in Argo.)

Also, Marcia seems way too smart to decide to play a memory game with the whole family present, considering her husband's mental state. Unless for some reason she actually wanted him to expose how poor his mental state was.

[Kel Varnsen]

Been watching this series for the first time, and watched this episode last night. After I was playing around with Google maps and if Ewan lives over 12 hours from New York city and they took the I-87 to get there he probably lives pretty deep into Quebec, to the point where if he lives alone he probably doesn't speak English very often. Like it is only 6 hours from NYC to Montreal.

It also seemed weird that Ewan was talking about Canadians fighting in Vietnam. Canada didn't take part in the Vietnam war, and Canadians who fought did so by joining the US Army. People here don't generally think of it as our war, so it is weird he kind of presented it that way.

 

[SlovakPrincess]

Greg's offhand comment "he's pretty lonely and afraid" - about Tom - was so on the mark.  And yet Greg is getting pulled into this awful mess, as well.  Run away, Greg!  He'd be better off couch-surfing and waiting tables through his twenties.  

The bitter irony is that these people have all the money in the world and they are constantly terrified and miserable and have nobody to really talk to, and keep playing dumb power games.   Even Frank, who probably should have enough money saved up to retire and had "escaped" through his impromptu firing ... let's himself get pulled back into this shit.

I want to feel bad for Kendall, but he brings a lot of this shit on himself by leaning into the power games against his dad.  Go to therapy, take the money and build a life for yourself to escape to, kid.   

Edited December 17, 2022 by SlovakPrincess