S05.E05: Big Little Liza

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza's secret forces her to think on her feet. Kelsey gets familiar with her new author. Josh grapples with the commitments he's made.

Edited June 27, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Armchair Critic]

Age Queer? Too many people know at this point, give it up Liza.

[dubbel zout]

Martha Plimpton returns somewhere down the line? Awesome!

[voiceover]

Heyyyyy!!!  Miriam directed this ep! Must be why it worked so well for me...

...though I confess indifference until Liza sputtered out that "Agequeer!!" fakeout.  I'm older than the character, and the last few years have been all about aging myself out of the market.  So, as often as I may have rolled my eyes at the new vocab, I admit to cheering at Liza's rant in that moment.   Her words snapped me right back onto her side of things. 

And I loved how she dumped Sutton Foster's ex.  Sometimes it does just come down to "You're an asshole!"

[HunterHunted]

26 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Age Queer? Too many people know at this point, give it up Liza.

Seriously! Write the first chapter of Younger, announce it to your coworkers, and pitch the book to Empirical. Also tell your dumb child about this shit.

Kelsey does have a problem with her bad sexual boundaries with her authors--Anton Bjornberg, Colin, Lachlan Flynn was pretty flirty with her, and now Jake. Plus her debacle with Zane. Perhaps she needs to sit back and reassess what's going on with her judgement.

Lauren is an old.

This thing with Josh ≠ using him effectively.

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, voiceover said:

...though I confess indifference until Liza sputtered out that "Agequeer!!" fakeout.  I'm older than the character, and the last few years have been all about aging myself out of the market.  So, as often as I may have rolled my eyes at the new vocab, I admit to cheering at Liza's rant in that moment.   Her words snapped me right back onto her side of things. 

I have to agree with you, and I didn't see that coming either.  Ageism and age discrimination are real things and having just turned 60, they are very real for me right now as I look for a job.  I have left out the dates of my education and omitted my first jobs from my resume to throw employers off like a lot of experts suggest, but  it wouldn't take much for them to do a search online and find out my real age.  And I can't scrub every site out there of this information.  I feel like I'm lying all the time (even if it's just a lie of omission) but when I was honest and up front about my age I didn't even get a phone call much less an interview.  Now I do get interviews, some of which have been spectacular, but somehow never get the job.  And I never had anywhere near this difficulty even a decade ago.  While I didn't agree with the extent to which Liza took her lie, such as living a double life and lying to friends, etc., I could appreciate the sentiment.  More power to her if she can turn her lie around to call out the working world's discrimination and bring some good out of it for older people.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Yeah No

[voiceover]

A mise-en-scene question:  

I always thought Josh's place was a bit cramped (see: Season 1), but tonight that living room looked like a warehouse.  Did he move?  What did I miss?

[retrograde]

Doesn't Josh have a life and interests outside Liza and her friends? Surely he had them before they met? Isn't he in a band? Certainly two epic relationship breakdowns of those proportions would do a number on you, but Liza can't be his only friend in NYC.

[HunterHunted]

46 minutes ago, retrograde said:

Doesn't Josh have a life and interests outside Liza and her friends? Surely he had them before they met? Isn't he in a band? Certainly two epic relationship breakdowns of those proportions would do a number on you, but Liza can't be his only friend in NYC.

He used to have male roommates that he hung out with and the band. Remember they also went to the music festival. He traveled. He's been seen talking to other people in Brooklyn.

[Aulty]

For some reason Kelsey looked older than Liza in some scenes, especially at the party.

If hooking up with an author is a sign for a bestseller, as it was in the past, then go for it Kelsey ;-)

Oh boy, Josh - let it go! "Out of sight, out of mind" - if this was an IRL scenario, getting away for a few months may get him out of this rut. Liza should realize that she does him no good by staying too close to him.

Again: Diana meets Maggie, make it happen, dammit!

 

PS: whoever came up with the line 'Reese is in pieces' >> LOL

Edited July 11, 2018 by Aulty

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

“Age-queer” is so clearly a term bitter boomers would use to mock millennials for trying to be inclusive that it should’ve outed Liza to the world the minute she said it. 

[allonsyalice]

“age queer” is the cringiest thing i have heard so far in 2018. i almost stopped watching right then and there. 

[betha]

This may be dating me as an oldie, but as someone nearing Liza’s real age, “age queer” is hilarious. Brilliant. Brava, show!

Edited July 11, 2018 by betha

[Jadzia]

1 hour ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

“Age-queer” is so clearly a term bitter boomers would use to mock millennials for trying to be inclusive that it should’ve outed Liza to the world the minute she said it. 

Liza is a Gen X-er - definitely not a "bitter boomer".

[dubbel zout]

Too little Diana, of course, but she had the line of the episode when she declined to go to Arianna Huffington's party: "I don't have the energy for that accent tonight." Hee.

[gesundheit]

Hahaha, some people have different pronouns (this would not be news to anyone in that group, especially Maggie but also Josh). I realize it was just to set up Liza's whole "age queer" thing later, but ugh. They could've still established it without everyone acting so brand new about it. Anyway, my main response to this episode was: Yay, no Charles! Boo, too much Kelsey. On the upside, the previews showed some Diana/Lauren bonding, which I am all for.

Oh also, would it REALLY be that massive a story that some new editor at an imprint is slightly older than the name of the imprint?

[dubbel zout]

10 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Oh also, would it REALLY be that massive a story that some new editor at an imprint is slightly older than the name of the imprint?

No, especially since Millennium has had some solid success. I really think Liza's age needs to come out now, and the show can finally move on. She's proven herself, too many people already know her real age, and it's dragging things down.

[betha]

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

Oh also, would it REALLY be that massive a story that some new editor at an imprint is slightly older than the name of the imprint?

Exactly! the oldest millennials are 38 now. Not exactly a huge gap there. 

[thesupremediva1]

So that ep was largely a miss for me until Nico and Sutton had their scene together. I held my breath through the whole thing. I don't care if you aren't a fan of the Josh/Liza relationship, you can't deny that those two have explosive chemistry. I can see why Nico was supposed to be in just a few eps and was quickly made permanent. Compare them to Charles and Liza and the latter is stiff as a starched shirt. Peter Hermann is every bit as attractive as Nico, but for some reason, he and Sutton fall flat on screen.

Maybe Nico could have chemistry with a lamppost, I don't know, but he's a better actor than he was in season 1 and he's quickly becoming the only thing along with Diana that can salvage these eps.

I cannot fathom why Liza is wasting time with broke asshole writers and pining after a whiner like Charles. Neither of these men accept her for who she is - and both are willing to sell her out to save their own skin. Then there's Josh. This is not a tough choice, IMO. 

Kelsey's got a pattern she can't break. That's one facet of her character the writers have kept in tact and I can relate.

We have jumped the shark with people buying Liza's last-minute saves. Age-queer? Please. Fact checkers in places like that WILL find a birth certificate or something equally telling and that's the jig. 

We need more Maggie.

Edited July 11, 2018 by thesupremediva1

[Boofish]

In this day and age everyone acting like someone 41 had a pet dinosaur as a child is beyond ridiculous. In the age of social media, someone who looked like Liza at 41 would be celebrated. What vibrant, smart, articulate, educated 41 year old tall white attractive woman would have that much trouble finding a job in NYC? I still enjoy the show but the premise is laughable.

[Winston Wolfe]

1 hour ago, Boofish said:

In this day and age everyone acting like someone 41 had a pet dinosaur as a child is beyond ridiculous. In the age of social media, someone who looked like Liza at 41 would be celebrated. What vibrant, smart, articulate, educated 41 year old tall white attractive woman would have that much trouble finding a job in NYC? I still enjoy the show but the premise is laughable.

Well, call me a hopeless optimist, but I'm hoping that 41 year-old tall Black/Latino attractive women can get a shot at that action too.

On a brighter note, Miriam knocked it out of the park with her direction.  She made a mediocre script move crisply and with confidence.  Bravo!

[bichonblitz]

1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Then there's Josh. This is not a tough choice, IMO. 

He made it clear he wants kids. She does not. Knowing this, she needs to let him go for good and stop coming around to be his savior from the big bad world. 

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

We have jumped the shark with people buying Liza's last-minute saves. Age-queer? Please. Fact checkers in places like that WILL find a birth certificate or something equally telling and that's the jig. 

Most states won't usually release birth certificates to just anyone. However, Vanity Fair could have found Liza out the way Thad did--by checking with Dartmouth. Or they could check her divorce filings, which are public records.*

*This is how bloggers were able to confirm that one of the Real Housewives of Atlanta had fraudulently obtained a divorce from her incarcerated husband intentionally misspelling their names in her divorce filings, which prevented her husband from getting proper service.

[Boofish]

16 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Well, call me a hopeless optimist, but I'm hoping that 41 year-old tall Black/Latino attractive women can get a shot at that action too.

On a brighter note, Miriam knocked it out of the park with her direction.  She made a mediocre script move crisply and with confidence.  Bravo!

Not saying they can't but the show is about a tall, attractive 41 year old white woman

[Megan]

I'm mostly excited to hear what Lovett has to say about this Leavitt character.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Boofish said:

What vibrant, smart, articulate, educated 41 year old tall white attractive woman would have that much trouble finding a job in NYC? I still enjoy the show but the premise is laughable.

Liza's problem is more her lack of experience than her age, but there's a definite bias toward younger employees in the media.

[LuvMyShows]

I hate when there's a "sucker's choice", and everyone falls for it.  In this case, either Josh signs the 10-yr lease at this one place only, or he has to do something other than run his own shop in NY.  Really?  Considering that several seasons ago, he and his shop were featured in that top 50 people in NY article, or whatever, then he could probably fairly easily find somewhere else to open his shop.

While Maggie and Liza would have known about "they", I did find it pretty realistic that Lauren did a run-down of the whole spectrum.  Just this weekend, my family was trying to remember what comes after LGBTQ, and from looking at the Internet, Lauren provided the most comprehensive listing!  And I loved the idea, and implicit mocking, of having edible makeup.

I want to like Josh, but his whole melodramatic "come say good-bye” and “I’m done with this place,” were just too much.  And I always hate it when people on TV shows have no other friends besides the main character and also the people who were originally the main character's friends, but are now also super good friends of this character as well.  What happened to all the people that these characters knew before they met the main character??? 

Yeah, it's nice what Liza said to Josh, but in truth, on the show, I bet that if Charles proposed to Liza and suggested that they move away and open a bookstore or something, she'd be out of there in a heartbeat.  So, no, he won't always have her...her life will probably change in a lot of ways in 10 years.

I liked the Age-Queer thing, especially the context it was used in of Liza thinking fast on her feet, but it would have been better if a bit more time had elapsed to have there really be an Internet movement that caused Ridley's article to be pulled.  

I can understand Kelsey letting her feelings/horniness get in the way with the White House author, but I can't imagine her not making a connection between him writing no chapters, and her being lenient on him because of her feelings about him.

[chybee23]

The plot didn’t advance much, but there were a lot of good one lines, and for having so many stories, it didn’t feel too crammed either. Thoroughly enjoyed how Liza handled the Vanity Fair fact check and I actually really enjoyed her scene with Caitlin. Jake doesn’t really stand out, but it seems like Kelsey has a decent guy for once and I’m looking forward to see how this storyline helps to flesh out Zane, though she does get involved with too many authors. 

 

Josh is insufferable. He can’t have her so every stupid decision he makes is her fault or her responsibility to stop. He takes advantage of her loyalty about him so he can whine and air out his grievances and people give him a free pass for his ‘emotional maturity.’ Yeah, she’s a liar, but if you can’t trust her and she’s somehow made everything good in your life disappear since apparently he has nothing, stop calling her like she owes you. He was never as accepting and understanding as they try to present him as with this revisionist history anyway—he broke up with her or ghost her a number of times. And he didn’t have to be understanding of her lie, but he’s the one who chose to stay involved with her. And Liza needs to stop coddling and mothering him so he can figure things out on his on and form some kind of identity. He’d be better served without his story revolving around her. That romantic relationship peaked in season 1. It’s a just a weird, imbalanced, familial dynamic now. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by chybee23

[Moxie Cat]

The idea that Liza needs to keep lying to protect Millennial's brand is ridiculous at this point. She understands millenials so well that she successfully went undercover as one!  That sells itself! And how does that hurt the brand? The inevitable book and the PR it would generate for Millennial far outweigh the ongoing exposures. To quote Don Draper, all they need to do is "change the conversation." My guess is that, by the end of the season, everyone will know but Liza will have a book deal, and if next season is the last one, it will be about her establishing a truthful life again. 

[gesundheit]

There's definitely nothing easy about getting an entry-level position in a competitive field at 40 after a near two-decade resume gap. Even her education in that field is 20 years out of date.

[Megan]

1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

My guess is that, by the end of the season, everyone will know but Liza will have a book deal, and if next season is the last one, it will be about her establishing a truthful life again. 

Has Darren Starr ever commented on the show idea coming from Riley Weston 

End game is definitely Liza getting a book deal and becoming a big time writer/memoir-ist 

[Bort]

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

There's definitely nothing easy about getting an entry-level position in a competitive field at 40 after a near two-decade resume gap. Even her education in that field is 20 years out of date.

And a lot of times it’s about money, because a younger person is often willing to work for less. 

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, Jadzia said:

Liza is a Gen X-er - definitely not a "bitter boomer".

To some people everyone over a certain age is a "bitter boomer".  But boomers typically aren't bitter at all.  Puzzled at some of the accusations against them is more like it.  We're more typically the generation that stands for taking people as individuals, not lumping them together in groups by age or anything else.  But you'd never know that by some of the assumptions out there these days.

7 hours ago, betha said:

This may be dating me as an oldie, but as someone nearing Liza’s real age, “age queer” is hilarious. Brilliant. Brava, show!

 

ITA.  I think it was meant to be ironic and funny, not to be taken that seriously.  But there is still a serious point there.  If we are talking about being accepted no matter what we identify as, then age should also be a part of that.  We should be able to scream our age from the rooftops without experiencing prejudice and discrimination for it, just like queer folk should be able to be open about being queer.  I think that's a powerful, serious point.  I just think some people don't like something they think belongs to their generation alone coming from older people.  But identity equality of any kind is for everyone, not just younger people.

4 hours ago, Boofish said:

In this day and age everyone acting like someone 41 had a pet dinosaur as a child is beyond ridiculous. In the age of social media, someone who looked like Liza at 41 would be celebrated. What vibrant, smart, articulate, educated 41 year old tall white attractive woman would have that much trouble finding a job in NYC? I still enjoy the show but the premise is laughable.

An attractive, vibrant, smart anything at 41 would not be able to waltz into a publishing company and get what is essentially an entry level position.  And I know that because I tried it at around 43.  There's a misperception that you can get hired at entry level jobs at any age, but that's the most typical situation where age discrimination is practiced.  It doesn't matter if you're tall, white, male, female, or anything else.  You get told you're "overqualified".  They just don't want anyone with any kind of experience in an entry level position, and even the wrong kind of experience makes you less desirable.  They want you to have the experience they feel is "appropriate" for your age in the field for which you're applying for a job.  Anything else will not do, after all there are plenty of other candidates that have exactly what they want.  It becomes a kind of Catch 22.  At 41 you're expected to have a certain amount of experience in a certain area, and if your experience in that area is minimal or 15 years out of date then sorry, you missed the boat for that career, and just about any other even if you go back to school for more relevant education.  This happened to a few of my friends.  I had one good friend who became a lawyer in his late 30s.  Could not get a job anywhere, so he went out on his own, but of course that's not easy or even possible in a lot of fields.  So that's the premise of this show, that Liza had to fake being younger in order to get an entry level position because she couldn't say she was 41 and get either an entry level position or a more advanced one.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Yeah No

[dubbel zout]

9 minutes ago, Megan said:

Has Darren Starr ever commented on the show idea coming from Riley Weston 

This idea isn't unique, IMO. Actors have been lying about their age forever. Weston simply got a lot of attention for it.

[thesupremediva1]

3 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

He made it clear he wants kids. She does not. Knowing this, she needs to let him go for good and stop coming around to be his savior from the big bad world. 

Perspectives vary on this, to be sure, but I think he went back on this in last season's finale. He and Liza addressed that at the hotel ("I can't give you the life you want") and he told her he wants any life that includes her. Was it vague and poorly timed? Yes. But that's how I read it. And he is still, 5 seasons in, the only man to accept and love Liza for who she is - while knowing the extent of her lies. I could get behind another love interest, maybe, but the show has given us Josh and Charles as the only real menu options. One is filet mignon on screen and one's a hamburger.

[Yeah No]

24 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

And a lot of times it’s about money, because a younger person is often willing to work for less. 

Yeah, that too!  Even if you're older and willing to work for less they don't want you.  They think you'll eventually find something that pays more and leave.  For what?  At my age where am I going to go?  It's ridiculous.  Plus they don't want people that know a lot in jobs where you're not "supposed" to know that much.  They want younger people because they think they can treat them with less respect, or that they can make them do anything because they want to move up the ladder.  They don't like workers that they can't manipulate that way.

[MissLucas]

5 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

And he is still, 5 seasons in, the only man to accept and love Liza for who she is - while knowing the extent of her lies. I could get behind another love interest, maybe, but the show has given us Josh and Charles as the only real menu options. One is filet mignon on screen and one's a hamburger.

That's definitely his saving grace - that and the chemistry between the two actors. I still think Charles was the intended endgame but I'm no longer sure TPTB are going to stick with him. Maybe Liza will pull a Kelly and 'chose me' (and a big fat book deal) in the end.

I honestly thought the show had made up 'age-queer' until I googled it - now I'm terrified of googling 'breadfacing'.

(Also: Sutton truly rocked that striped mini-dress.)

[LuvMyShows]

41 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

ITA.  I think it was meant to be ironic and funny, not to be taken that seriously.  But there is still a serious point there.  If we are talking about being accepted no matter what we identify as, then age should also be a part of that.  We should be able to scream our age from the rooftops without experiencing prejudice and discrimination for it, just like queer folk should be able to be open about being queer.  I think that's a powerful, serious point.  I just think some people don't like something they think belongs to their generation alone coming from older people.  But identity equality of any kind is for everyone, not just younger people.

Well-written, and puts all the parts together nicely.

 

41 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

An attractive, vibrant, smart anything at 41 would not be able to waltz into a publishing company and get what is essentially an entry level position.  And I know that because I tried it at around 43.  There's a misperception that you can get hired at entry level jobs at any age, but that's the most typical situation where age discrimination is practiced.  It doesn't matter if you're tall, white, male, female, or anything else.  You get told you're "overqualified".  They just don't want anyone with any kind of experience in an entry level position, and even the wrong kind of experience makes you less desirable.  They want you to have the experience they feel is "appropriate" for your age in the field for which you're applying for a job.  Anything else will not do, after all there are plenty of other candidates that have exactly what they want.  It becomes a kind of Catch 22.  At 41 you're expected to have a certain amount of experience in a certain area, and if your experience in that area is minimal or 15 years out of date then sorry, you missed the boat for that career, and just about any other even if you go back to school for more relevant education.  This happened to a few of my friends.  I had one good friend who became a lawyer in his late 30s.  Could not get a job anywhere, so he went out on his own, but of course that's not easy or even possible in a lot of fields.  So that's the premise of this show, that Liza had to fake being younger in order to get an entry level position because she couldn't say she was 41 and get either an entry level position or a more advanced one.

Interesting to hear from your perspective of having done it.

[chybee23]

24 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Perspectives vary on this, to be sure, but I think he went back on this in last season's finale. He and Liza addressed that at the hotel ("I can't give you the life you want") and he told her he wants any life that includes her. Was it vague and poorly timed? Yes. But that's how I read it. And he is still, 5 seasons in, the only man to accept and love Liza for who she is - while knowing the extent of her lies. I could get behind another love interest, maybe, but the show has given us Josh and Charles as the only real menu options. One is filet mignon on screen and one's a hamburger.

How can we see Charles hasn’t accepted her for who she is? He hasn’t accepted the fact that she lied yet, yes, but I don’t see that basis yet for claiming he doesn’t love her for who she is. She’s put on a facade around him, (I personally think she’s been very authentic in regards to her passions and interest, just not in the sense that she’s trying to present herself as a well-versed millennial.) but is presumptions to assume that he won’t accept when that’s done with, or discount him because he hasn’t been given the chance yet. Other than his reaction to the lie so far (and don’t forget Josh called her a lunatic and ‘told her to have a nice, fraudulent life’ when he first found out) he’s sung her praises plenty of times, and it’s been made very clear that he was drawn to her personality and her passions in the first place. 

[ashleyo91]

1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Perspectives vary on this, to be sure, but I think he went back on this in last season's finale. He and Liza addressed that at the hotel ("I can't give you the life you want") and he told her he wants any life that includes her. Was it vague and poorly timed? Yes. But that's how I read it. And he is still, 5 seasons in, the only man to accept and love Liza for who she is - while knowing the extent of her lies. I could get behind another love interest, maybe, but the show has given us Josh and Charles as the only real menu options. One is filet mignon on screen and one's a hamburger.

Liza didn't address anything in the finale. Josh claimed he wants to be with her, then married someone else. If Liza truly wanted him back, that would've been her moment to say something! Or if she was still conflicted about what she wants, last night would've been the time to speak up. I think she sees Josh as an immature kid who doesn't really know what he wants and she's trying to help him navigate that. So Josh, the guy who plays video games, smokes pot, constantly criticizes and puts down Liza for the mistakes she's made is the filet mignon? Give me the burger because the steak's gone rancid. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by ashleyo91

[Mabinogia]

49 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Yeah, that too!  Even if you're older and willing to work for less they don't want you.  They think you'll eventually find something that pays more and leave.  For what?  At my age where am I going to go?  It's ridiculous.

The irony is, an older worker is more likely to stay in the job. It's the younger ones, who are just starting out and have shitloads of school loans to pay off that are looking to move up and do it quickly and are more likely to change companies and follow the money. They need to, they are just starting their lives and need to buy houses and start families etc. Older workers have most of that already established and are looking for stability. 

I'm 46 and would give anything to get a new job. It's not easy. I'm too experienced to change industries, even if I'm willing to work for peanuts, which I am, cause I have no debt. They don't let you get that far to explain why you're willing to take an entry level job. They only see the years on your resume, or the fact you left them off, and the extent of your experience and they move on. 

I wish I had the balls to do what Liza did. I actually look young enough to do it. Unfortunately I don't live in a TV show and I'm pretty sure doctoring official documents like birth certificate or license is illegal. So I'm stuck, living vicariously through Liza. 

[Moxie Cat]

2 hours ago, chybee23 said:

How can we see Charles hasn’t accepted her for who she is? He hasn’t accepted the fact that she lied yet, yes, but I don’t see that basis yet for claiming he doesn’t love her for who she is.

Yes, how quickly we forget the endless three episodes on which Kelsey was super pissed off at Liza. (Was that just last year?) Even Josh gets in the occasional digs, years later, about Liza being untruthful. There is potentially a case to be made that the longer one of her "dupes" remains pissed, the more than person probably cares about her. I think once Charles gets used to it, he'll be more interested and curious about why she did it and remember all the moments he had with her. In Charles' case, it's not just the romantic connection (like Josh) but also the potential for company problems and friendship (like Kelsey) - it's both at the same time.

[Boofish]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

To some people everyone over a certain age is a "bitter boomer".  But boomers typically aren't bitter at all.  Puzzled at some of the accusations against them is more like it.  We're more typically the generation that stands for taking people as individuals, not lumping them together in groups by age or anything else.  But you'd never know that by some of the assumptions out there these days.

ITA.  I think it was meant to be ironic and funny, not to be taken that seriously.  But there is still a serious point there.  If we are talking about being accepted no matter what we identify as, then age should also be a part of that.  We should be able to scream our age from the rooftops without experiencing prejudice and discrimination for it, just like queer folk should be able to be open about being queer.  I think that's a powerful, serious point.  I just think some people don't like something they think belongs to their generation alone coming from older people.  But identity equality of any kind is for everyone, not just younger people.

An attractive, vibrant, smart anything at 41 would not be able to waltz into a publishing company and get what is essentially an entry level position.  And I know that because I tried it at around 43.  There's a misperception that you can get hired at entry level jobs at any age, but that's the most typical situation where age discrimination is practiced.  It doesn't matter if you're tall, white, male, female, or anything else.  You get told you're "overqualified".  They just don't want anyone with any kind of experience in an entry level position, and even the wrong kind of experience makes you less desirable.  They want you to have the experience they feel is "appropriate" for your age in the field for which you're applying for a job.  Anything else will not do, after all there are plenty of other candidates that have exactly what they want.  It becomes a kind of Catch 22.  At 41 you're expected to have a certain amount of experience in a certain area, and if your experience in that area is minimal or 15 years out of date then sorry, you missed the boat for that career, and just about any other even if you go back to school for more relevant education.  This happened to a few of my friends.  I had one good friend who became a lawyer in his late 30s.  Could not get a job anywhere, so he went out on his own, but of course that's not easy or even possible in a lot of fields.  So that's the premise of this show, that Liza had to fake being younger in order to get an entry level position because she couldn't say she was 41 and get either an entry level position or a more advanced one.

See here is the thing. Had millennial already been established and Liza was trying to get a job with Kelsey then I would be a little more sympathetic to her plight. I love Liza but that was an awful lot of trouble just to get Diana some coffee and make copies. I guess I don't know enough about the publishing world for the lie to make any sense other than the context of a fictional TV show.

[Moxie Cat]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

To some people everyone over a certain age is a "bitter boomer".  But boomers typically aren't bitter at all.  Puzzled at some of the accusations against them is more like it.

I have some millennial FB friends, and they love to share memes and stories about how boomers are totally wrong about them and completely out of touch. Most boomers I know don't seem to know much about millenials, let alone hold grudges or stereotypes about them! Most are just in awe of their mad phone skillz, haha.

I guess I should be glad that both groups have seemingly forgotten about my (and Liza's) group, Gen X, which even I forget about until Starz reruns Reality Bites. And even then, there's an argument that those of us in our early 40s and below are actually "Gen Y" - whatever that is!

[KeelyMac]

21 hours ago, retrograde said:

Doesn't Josh have a life and interests outside Liza and her friends? Surely he had them before they met? Isn't he in a band? Certainly two epic relationship breakdowns of those proportions would do a number on you, but Liza can't be his only friend in NYC.

 

7 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Perspectives vary on this, to be sure, but I think he went back on this in last season's finale. He and Liza addressed that at the hotel ("I can't give you the life you want") and he told her he wants any life that includes her. Was it vague and poorly timed? Yes. But that's how I read it. And he is still, 5 seasons in, the only man to accept and love Liza for who she is - while knowing the extent of her lies. I could get behind another love interest, maybe, but the show has given us Josh and Charles as the only real menu options. One is filet mignon on screen and one's a hamburger.

When he first told Maggie that he didn’t want to lose Liza and that he only wanted Liza, he said that while the relationship was rocky and he was scared of losing Liza.  Deciding to change your mind on something that is so big in a relationship while it is not going well, is not the way to do it. And then when he gave her the drunken speech in the hotel, was not great proof that he meant what he was saying, especially since he then went on to marry Clare. How can you believe him after that. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip: You can't assume everyone's pronouns

Edited July 12, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Well-written, and puts all the parts together nicely.

 

Interesting to hear from your perspective of having done it.

Thanks.  All my friends and my Mom said "What do you have to lose?", so I applied for jobs and even used head hunters to help me get into a publishing company, but nothing worked.  I tried to work the angle that I was a good editor/writer/proofreader having made it through graduate school thesis writing, etc., but got nowhere fast.  The head hunters kept telling me it would be a hard sell given my age.

I wish it were true that you can "reinvent yourself" at any age, but the only times I've seen that work (for women anyway) is when they go from a traditional career to something non-traditional (which often pays less or is done on a charity basis), they freelance, or they start their own business.  Unfortunately those three options don't work for a lot of people.  Some of us aren't particularly entrepreneurial, especially as we get older, or have too many financial responsibilities to be able to make a lot less over the long haul even if we could get hired at a job like that.  And freelancing also doesn't work that well for a steady income in a lot of cases either.  It's good if you already have something to fall back on, but doesn't always work as a primary income.  So I really get how someone like Liza could feel backed into a corner with few options.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My favorite thing was in this episode was Liza breadfacing to show Caitlin how weird it was to watch someone you love doing it. Heh, but I also loved Caitlin saying she would still eat that bread.

Kelsey never learns, does she? Aside from that ridiculous jerkface Thad, everyone she has dated has been work related. Girl, you live in NYC. There are a million other guys you can date/kiss/fuck. STOP MESSING AROUND WITH PEOPLE YOU WORK WITH.

I love Tam for making Lauren feel the way she often made Liza feel (old and totally out of touch).

The age queer thing made me feel two things. The first is that it fit within the theme of the show, which is that women get judged for their ages much more than men do, whether it's in work or dating. If you look at the age ranges that people request on dating sites, it's common to see men who are in their 40s to say they are seeking women who are 24-35. What I noticed when I used to read magazines like People while waiting in line at the grocery store in high school was that if a woman was mentioned in a story, they ALWAYS included her age but they often didn't state the age of a man, even if they were in the same story. It was the equivalent of "Brad Pitt and his wife, Jennifer Aniston, 31, were spotted on the red carpet."

The second thing I thought was that even if Liza managed to put off Reese Witherspoon with her age queer thing, if Moore's detective was able to dig up multiple pieces of proof with her real age, there's no reason that anyone else couldn't find the same information like the wedding announcement from the newspaper or stuff from college that had her name and the year she graduated. I don't know what the laws are like in New Jersey/New York, but in some states you can obtain a copy of a marriage certificate as long as the two people who got married did not specifically file it as private (I learned this when someone I knew went to city hall on her lunch hour, filled out a form requesting the marriage certificate of her ex, and it got printed and handed to her in less than ten minutes for under $20).

11 hours ago, Megan said:

Has Darren Starr ever commented on the show idea coming from Riley Weston 

End game is definitely Liza getting a book deal and becoming a big time writer/memoir-ist 

Ha, I KNEW IT! That's exactly what I thought before the show even premiered because I remembered what a huge scandal it was at the time. Ahhh, the days of Felicity.

On 7/11/2018 at 12:24 AM, retrograde said:

Doesn't Josh have a life and interests outside Liza and her friends? Surely he had them before they met? Isn't he in a band? Certainly two epic relationship breakdowns of those proportions would do a number on you, but Liza can't be his only friend in NYC.

When they started dating, he had lots of friends and activities that he kept introducing Liza to - trivia night, kickball league, etc. but in the last season or two they've made it seem like he doesn't know anyone in New York besides Liza and her friends. I do appreciate that we've seen Josh develop friendships with Maggie and Kelsey (and Lauren to a much lesser extent) outside of Liza so that it makes more sense that they are friends with him too.

[gesundheit]

While in fairness I'm biased because I think Charles is really boring (and not very bright, to be honest), I also don't understand how we're supposed to be all "Charles is The One!" when they've literally never been on one date. A mutual crush means nothing, so if they're going to ask us to accept them as endgame, we need to see a relationship.

The way to get a foot in the door in the publishing world IS getting coffee and making copies. That's where you start. So sure, while she might've been able to get a receptionist job with no upward mobility at an investment firm or something, these menial jobs in publishing are VERY competitive and they have movement in mind. No way could she have gotten that being honest in her situation.