Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not sure if this actually belongs in Unpopular Opinions or Super Positive, lol. But my maybe-unpopular opinion is that despite everything, I do love the show. Don't get me wrong, I loathe the bad writing and shitty characterizations and extraneous, gratuitous, self-indulgent Mary/GarySue characters. I will never stop letting them know it, either. But I love the Winchesters and their story. I bitch about and/criticize Sam's behavior, love and despair for Dean and want to strangle Mary with my bare hands. When it's because they have written something wildly uncharacteristic, it makes me angry. But when they get it right, they make me feel, really, emotionally feel for them. Dean always, Sam & Cas occasionally, even Mary (because yes, hate is an emotion, too). I guess that's what makes me so frustrated with the current state of affairs - I know it could be so much more. They have the characters and the actors to do it, and they are wasting them.

I'm right there with you. Everything you said X 1000! And, like you, I have loved the show since the Pilot - and will be here until the end.

[MysteryGuest]

This has been my bitch for a while now.  They have this great cast that everyone loves.  And the show is about "the supernatural"...duh!  The sky is literally the limit when it comes to potential storylines.  It doesn't have to be vampires, ghosts and werewolves all the time, but it sure as hell doesn't need to be archangels, either.  There is so much lore out there they could be investigating, especially with all the information in the Bunker archives.  With the success of shows like American Horror Story and Stranger Things, there is definitely an audience out there.  Just write some genuinely creepy episodes.  But that takes talented writers, and show runners who actually give a shit, so here we are.  What will Lucifer do next???  Stay tuned!

Edited June 22, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

But that takes talented writers, and show runners who actually give a shit, so here we are.  What will Lucifer do next???  Stay tuned!

This is true, but as I learned earlier this year: it could be much worse. At least our show doesn't have: What will Negan do next??? And what shitty excuse can we find now - for the dozenth time - for why someone doesn't just kill him???*** (Bonus if that reason is at the expense of a main character's characterization!) Stay tuned!!!  And in that case, I most certainly did not and never plan to again.

And The Walking Dead didn't really make it even to season 6 in good shape. Arguably it started going downhill in season 5 and only got worse and worse... now it's just awful, in my opinion.

*** And Negan doesn't even have archangel superpowers protecting him... people just don't kill him even when they have ample opportunity. And if by some miracle someone does try, he/she somehow miraculously misses so Negan can evil monologue - usually with at minimum one reference to his penis, his balls or usually both - and kill and maim for another day.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not sure if this actually belongs in Unpopular Opinions or Super Positive, lol. But my maybe-unpopular opinion is that despite everything, I do love the show. Don't get me wrong, I loathe the bad writing and shitty characterizations and extraneous, gratuitous, self-indulgent Mary/GarySue characters. I will never stop letting them know it, either. But I love the Winchesters and their story. I bitch about and/criticize Sam's behavior, love and despair for Dean and want to strangle Mary with my bare hands. When it's because they have written something wildly uncharacteristic, it makes me angry. But when they get it right, they make me feel, really, emotionally feel for them. Dean always, Sam & Cas occasionally, even Mary (because yes, hate is an emotion, too). I guess that's what makes me so frustrated with the current state of affairs - I know it could be so much more. They have the characters and the actors to do it, and they are wasting them.

Co-sign! I'm here to the bitter end right along with you :)

[MysteryGuest]

40 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This is true, but as I learned earlier this year: it could be much worse.

I know it could always be worse.  And I honestly liked parts of this season.  But it's the wasted potential that's so frustrating, like Gonzosgirrl said.  It's the idea that it really wouldn't take that much effort to be so much better, but they just don't do it.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

With the success of shows like American Horror Story

Yes! I would love to see the Winchesters with the kind of creepy, horrific plotlines that have been on this show. It would be a welcome departure from the never ending angel melodrama.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes! I would love to see the Winchesters with the kind of creepy, horrific plotlines that have been on this show. It would be a welcome departure from the never ending angel melodrama.

I think part of SPN's issues are being on the CW. It's probably also why it's lasted this long that the show is loved by TPTB.  Conundrum.

[DeeDee79]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I think part of SPN's issues are being on the CW. It's probably also why it's lasted this long that the show is loved by TPTB.  Conundrum.

True but shows on FX seem to have long life as well. Can you imagine the story possibilities if SPN was on FX??

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

True but shows on FX seem to have long life as well. Can you imagine the story possibilities if SPN was on FX??

I agree. But I don't think CW will let it go and I'm not sure FX wants it. My point is more that the CW is why it doesn't go darker.  JMHO

ETA: Also, I hate AHS. It got way to creepy and rapey and not what I want see happen to SPN. I'm not convinced SPN PTB want it to be that dark either. 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I agree. But I don't think CW will let it go and I'm not sure FX wants it. My point is more that the CW is why it doesn't go darker.  JMHO

Oh I agree that they wouldn't go too dark on the CW but I'm not saying that they should make a bid to get onto FX. I'm only speculating on what could be and that's it.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

agree. But I don't think CW will let it go and I'm not sure FX wants it. My point is more that the CW is why it doesn't go darker.  JMHO

I agree that being on the CW limits them.  Whether it's budget, content, whatever, it's not likely the show will turn into what I'm hoping for.  That's why that pipe dream of Netflix picking it up was so attractive.  Seeing this cast of characters with the restraints off would be loads of fun.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I agree. But I don't think CW will let it go and I'm not sure FX wants it. My point is more that the CW is why it doesn't go darker.  JMHO

ETA: Also, I hate AHS. It got way to creepy and rapey and not what I want see happen to SPN. I'm not convinced SPN PTB want it to be that dark either. 

I don't need darker, I need better. I need them to cut bait when a story is as over as the Angels/Heaven story is, except for what I believe is a niche section of the fandom. It kills me that they worry about repetition if they make it too much of a MOTW anthology, and yet they are doing it anyway by dragging out the Heaven story forever and repeating storylines where basically only the names have changed. As has already been said - there are endless mythologies and creatures they could explore. Dear Chuck, look at fanfic - some of the most creative ideas I've ever read are out there, written by 'amateurs' and I never tire of reading them. Because they concentrate on characterization and the relationships of (generally) Dean, Sam and Cas, while they are hunting things and saving people from all manner of supernatural beasties. It can be done when you're not mired in the played out battles of Heaven or too focused on your own ego spin-off to care about the mothership.

[BabySpinach]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't need darker, I need better. I need them to cut bait when a story is as over as the Angels/Heaven story is, except for what I believe is a niche section of the fandom. It kills me that they worry about repetition if they make it too much of a MOTW anthology, and yet they are doing it anyway by dragging out the Heaven story forever and repeating storylines where basically only the names have changed. As has already been said - there are endless mythologies and creatures they could explore. Dear Chuck, look at fanfic - some of the most creative ideas I've ever read are out there, written by 'amateurs' and I never tire of reading them. Because they concentrate on characterization and the relationships of (generally) Dean, Sam and Cas, while they are hunting things and saving people from all manner of supernatural beasties. It can be done when you're not mired in the played out battles of Heaven or too focused on your own ego spin-off to care about the mothership.

At this point, the characters, their history, and the world they inhabit are so fleshed out and developed that they'll pretty much write themselves if you let them. Just throw a conflict that personally impacts one/all of the main characters and watch them go, and be open to letting them surprise you. Yet these writers are so determined to get from point A to point B that they'll mutilate and contort these wonderful creations to serve THEIR purpose, rather than the other way around. The best characters and stories shouldn't serve the writers; the writers should serve those characters and stories.

I WISH the SPN world had better, more invested writers, because it deserves them. Fewer episodes and a higher budget wouldn't hurt, either.

[Pondlass1]

The writing teams are back at work as we speak.  Wonder how long Jensen will get to be AU Michael? 

[trxr4kids]

59 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The writing teams are back at work as we speak.  Wonder how long Jensen will get to be AU Michael? 

I'd wager it depends on where they're planning (lol) to go with the storyline. If they just did it for a shock value cliffhanger it'll be over with fairly quickly. If they plan on propping up other characters as heroes and saviors at the expense of Dean under the guise of giving what they want but not in a way they expected, it could very well drag on until I hurl things at my tv. 

[ukgirl71]

Is it wrong that I gigglesnort like a teenager every time one of you refers to MichaelDean as Mean - I love that name!

[raven]

This is the thread for Unpopular Opinions and Bitterness -

Quote

DON’T: Talk about how much you hate a certain actor or how they are not utilized enough on the show, need better storylines, etc. 

Posts and discussion have been removed that violate this instruction.  Be mindful of what/where you are posting.

[Bobcatkitten]

On 6/22/2018 at 12:05 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not sure if this actually belongs in Unpopular Opinions or Super Positive, lol. But my maybe-unpopular opinion is that despite everything, I do love the show. Don't get me wrong, I loathe the bad writing and shitty characterizations and extraneous, gratuitous, self-indulgent Mary/GarySue characters. I will never stop letting them know it, either. But I love the Winchesters and their story. I bitch about and/criticize Sam's behavior, love and despair for Dean and want to strangle Mary with my bare hands. When it's because they have written something wildly uncharacteristic, it makes me angry. But when they get it right, they make me feel, really, emotionally feel for them. Dean always, Sam & Cas occasionally, even Mary (because yes, hate is an emotion, too). I guess that's what makes me so frustrated with the current state of affairs - I know it could be so much more. They have the characters and the actors to do it, and they are wasting them.

A million times this.

[SueB]

From @gonzosgirrl

Quote

I think there is more to the finale scene than just the execution of a stunt. Regardless of one's feelings about Dean, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a fan who thought that fight, killing arguably the longest running villain of the series, was well done. Somebody okayed it to air as it did. I want that person to answer for it. 

My "meh, it's just a stunt" was more about it being 'spilt milk' than something that has an impact on the future.  I adore Dean BTW.  I'm not sure if you knew that.

"Answer for it." -- how?  Being asked a question at comic con?  How do you know Jensen wouldn't step in and take the bullet for Singer (he's that kinda guy) and answer the question about how difficult it was to film?  Several people seem to want to hold Dabb accountable. Or Dabb & Singer.  Fair enough, the buck stops there.  But realistically, it's WEEKS after production ended (they were editing up until the second week of May) and of then they decided the scene didn't live up to their expectations and editing and special effects didn't help?  Now what?  Production is shut down.  ADR can't fix it.  Maybe some lightening bolts?  And why didn't they see it in the dailies? Maybe the rigging (which would be removed in post) made it hard to tell how well it looked.

I understand dissappointment in the final scene.  But there's an edge to "answer for it" that implies malice or incompetence on the part of Dabb/Singer.  For malice - I just don't see what value it would be for them to do a poor job on purpose.  For incompetence - that scene is not going to get them fired by the execs at WBTV. It's just not.  So all you have left is 'publicly embarrass' -- and that's a hit and miss depending on how the question is phrased and who actually answers.

Now is you REALLY want someone to hold them accountable - send a note to Jess or any of the people doing round table interviews.  They have the best shot of asking an actual question to Dabb and only Dabb.  But Comic Con is going to be about S14, so I'd be surprised if you get any takers. 

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

  They have the best shot of asking an actual question to Dabb and only Dabb.  But Comic Con is going to be about S14, so I'd be surprised if you get any takers. 

 In past years, questions about the preceding season(s) still come up. Questions about random stuff from seasons back comes up. Why would it be different this time around?

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 In past years, questions about the preceding season(s) still come up. Questions about random stuff from seasons back comes up. Why would it be different this time around?

Usually it's "good stuff" -- like kudos on the Mary/Dean scene.  Not "why didn't you refilm the finale differently because the stunt didn't work well?" IDK.  You might very well get a like minded audience member to ask a question.  You might convince some interviewer to ask about the finale fight scene and leave it open ended.  I'm just not expecting, even if the question gets asked, for much satisfaction on this.

My guess is this is mostly on Singer.  Don't forget, he was also the director that had Sam 'blow' on the burning piece of parchment to put it out in "The Frog and the Scorpion."  He's got some weak spots IMO. But he's venerated by the cast and crew -- so I'm not sure anyone is going to throw him under the bus.  JMO. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

From @gonzosgirrl

My "meh, it's just a stunt" was more about it being 'spilt milk' than something that has an impact on the future.  I adore Dean BTW.  I'm not sure if you knew that.

"Answer for it." -- how?  Being asked a question at comic con?  How do you know Jensen wouldn't step in and take the bullet for Singer (he's that kinda guy) and answer the question about how difficult it was to film?  Several people seem to want to hold Dabb accountable. Or Dabb & Singer.  Fair enough, the buck stops there.  But realistically, it's WEEKS after production ended (they were editing up until the second week of May) and of then they decided the scene didn't live up to their expectations and editing and special effects didn't help?  Now what?  Production is shut down.  ADR can't fix it.  Maybe some lightening bolts?  And why didn't they see it in the dailies? Maybe the rigging (which would be removed in post) made it hard to tell how well it looked.

I understand dissappointment in the final scene.  But there's an edge to "answer for it" that implies malice or incompetence on the part of Dabb/Singer.  For malice - I just don't see what value it would be for them to do a poor job on purpose.  For incompetence - that scene is not going to get them fired by the execs at WBTV. It's just not.  So all you have left is 'publicly embarrass' -- and that's a hit and miss depending on how the question is phrased and who actually answers.

Now is you REALLY want someone to hold them accountable - send a note to Jess or any of the people doing round table interviews.  They have the best shot of asking an actual question to Dabb and only Dabb.  But Comic Con is going to be about S14, so I'd be surprised if you get any takers. 

Yes, answer for it, and I'm not implying incompetence, I'm stating it outright. It shouldn't have made it to air on a show that's been around this long and is arguably the heart of CW programming. Fireable offense? There doesn't seem to be such an animal. But if the network doesn't care about the details - and lets face it, going into its 14th season with no real change in ratings, I don't think they *do* sweat the details - the fans do (or at least this fan does). And yes, *I* think they should answer to fans when they mess up as bad as that scene was messed up. And you're right, it would probably be Jensen throwing himself on the sword, but if Dabb and Singer would sit there and allow it to stand, then they are bigger d-bags than I already think they are.

Edited June 27, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

My guess is this is mostly on Singer.  Don't forget, he was also the director that had Sam 'blow' on the burning piece of parchment to put it out in "The Frog and the Scorpion."  He's got some weak spots IMO. But he's venerated by the cast and crew -- so I'm not sure anyone is going to throw him under the bus.  JMO. 

That seemed to me to be a writing choice, not a directing choice.  They had to make sure the spell was not saved and if Sam stepped on it, it would have been saved. That's a writing decision to move the plot where they wanted it.  

I'm not so sure that Singer is venerated (which is a pretty strong word) by the cast and crew.  I think he receives criticism and questions from the cast and crew especially over the Charlie death.

Even if directorial choices are made, it still starts with the script and story. Even with this show.

[Casseiopeia]

41 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

. It shouldn't have made it to air on a show that's been around this long and is arguably the heart of CW programming

Agreed and  after what happened at Pittcon I hope the atrocity of that stunt is never brought up again at conventions.  That was an embarrassing and unfair moment for Jensen.  Maybe it's best that it goes unmentioned (at least when Jensen is on stage).  Hopefully someone during the producers interviews at SDCC will grill Singer/Dabb about it.

[SueB]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, answer for it, and I'm not implying incompetence, I'm stating it outright. It shouldn't have made it to air on a show that's been around this long and is arguably the heart of CW programming. Fireable offense? There doesn't seem to be such an animal. But if the network doesn't care about the details - and lets face it, going into its 14th season with no real change in ratings, I don't think they *do* sweat the details - the fans do (or at least this fan does). And yes, *I* think they should answer to fans when they mess up as bad as that scene was messed up. And you're right, it would probably be Jensen throwing himself on the sword, but if Dabb and Singer would sit there and allow it to stand, then they are bigger d-bags than I already think they are.

The CW wouldn't get a vote, it's WBTV that hires Dabb, Singer, etc (as well as all the actors).  They sell it to the CW.  

And yes, Dabb & Singer would be more than happy to have Jensen defend them IMO.  The fans like Jensen a LOT more.  They'd be happy to hide behind him.  Dabb would be afraid to say anything and Singer doesn't give a shit. 

As for it being "incompetent" -- that's a toMAYtoh toMAHtoh topic for me.  It wasn't great but it doesn't stick in my craw.  Then again, I tend to roll with the story.  Happy with good stuff, "meh" over the not great.  I only get really pissed when I see a plot choice that does long term character damage.  Like in S8 -- Sam not looking for Dean -- that was long-term damage.  OTOH, Sam and Dean both were pissy for a while at the start of S8.  They got better.  Dean continuing to lie to Sam in S9 - that did long term damage.  But I can't recall an issue regarding a single scene that disturbed me greatly.  I usually need a series of scenes to cement an opinion.  YMMV. 

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not so sure that Singer is venerated (which is a pretty strong word) by the cast and crew.  I think he receives criticism and questions from the cast and crew especially over the Charlie death.

I think Jensen is about the only one who would be able to argue with Singer.  I'm not sure Jared would.  Not that he's cowed by Singer, but he'd probaby go to Dabb.  Just a hunch based on things they've said in the past.  OTOH, Jensen has made it VERY clear that he thinks Singer is essential to the show.  Singer even joked that he can't stop being the EP because J2 won't let him. Honestly, as J2's opinion goes, so goes everyone else IMO.  

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

ust a hunch based on things they've said in the past.

I'm curious what things have been said that leads you to this. Are there things in interviews or panels?

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm curious what things have been said that leads you to this. Are there things in interviews or panels?

Jared's interviews last couple of pre-season, early season stuff -- he mentions Andrew but not Bob.  Jensen mentions both, again more pre-season/early season stuff. 

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

Jared's interviews last couple of pre-season, early season stuff -- he mentions Andrew but not Bob.  Jensen mentions both, again more pre-season/early season stuff. 

Gotcha. Thanks

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I agree totally.  It's nepotism at its finest.  This show needs to go back to learning nuance and subtlety, but it never will with writers like this.  Its all in your face shock and awe and no reason why.  Puddle deep emotions. I could go on but I'm in the wrong thread. Sigh.  

Unpopular opinion time.  The Puddle Deep emotions IMO exist because Jared prefers the emotional scenes and IMO that is not Jared's best work. I find I don't buy it when Sam is emotional in these past 4 seasons. I thought he was a better emotional actor prior to s11.  I don't know what's changed.  I don't if the writing is too obvious and that works against Jared. Like the hug and cry in 12.22 did not work for me at all. 

[Res]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Unpopular opinion time.  The Puddle Deep emotions IMO exist because Jared prefers the emotional scenes and IMO that is not Jared's best work. I find I don't buy it when Sam is emotional in these past 4 seasons. I thought he was a better emotional actor prior to s11.  I don't know what's changed.  I don't if the writing is too obvious and that works against Jared. Like the hug and cry in 12.22 did not work for me at all. 

That's not an UO for me. It's actually my personal opinion except that it hasn't work for me since S2-3 and I know this is definitely a personal preference or view because, for some, as I have read in the episodic comments, Jared gets them to feel every time. But for me he really doesn't and in addition to that, due to his acting or really my personal view of what he's displaying on screen, I am much more unsympathetic to Sam because of most of Jared's acting choices wrt to the writing. I really believe this is where a lot of the disparity between fans comes from. Some are very sensitive to Jared and his acting choices which allow them to see much more to Sam than I do because I do not get that at all. 

OTOH, while Jensen has made Dean become larger than life to me and I can definitely relate to Dean in a way that I'm not sure I could've with a different actor at the helm, some fans find Jensen's acting uninspired and find Dean a character that they cannot relate to or sympathize with because of the same reason I cannot relate to or sympathize with Sam. 

But that also begs the question, how much of it is because of the actor/actor's choices and how much of it is because of the writing? 

For instance, they have written so many Sam/Cas/etc. torture porn scenes that at this point it's just yawn worthy for me no matter how I feel about the actor, his emote-tions, etc.. It's just so tired and overdone that I will literally FF or get up and do dishes if I'm watching live. That's not on the actor but the continuous pathetic attempts to wring emotion out of me using cheap tricks that end up no where. I know they will be rescued and fine in the next scene so whatever. If writers want me to feel for a character than make me actually feel for them through character growth, hardship, learned lessons, progression, etc. 

But it seems every season almost it's reset to the same old, same old. None of the characters really evolve or learn. At almost 40, these men are still so pathetically codependent that they would give the safety of the world away for one another which they know always ends badly but they do it anyway, regardless of how many times each one of them have learned the lesson the hard way or how many people have died for it. 

Look forward to that again during the desperate attempt to free Dean from Michael, only to unleash a worse thing, and around and around we go.

I also don't expect Dean to be Michael very long because several fans and Singer refuse to believe that the show can work that way at all.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Res

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Unpopular opinion time.  The Puddle Deep emotions IMO exist because Jared prefers the emotional scenes and IMO that is not Jared's best work. I find I don't buy it when Sam is emotional in these past 4 seasons. I thought he was a better emotional actor prior to s11.  I don't know what's changed.  I don't if the writing is too obvious and that works against Jared. Like the hug and cry in 12.22 did not work for me at all. 

This is not unpopular with me.  I haven't connected with Sam since early s5.

My unpopular opinion is that I would be okay if Jensen played Michael the entire season and Dean didn't come back at all.

[FlickChick]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is not unpopular with me.  I haven't connected with Sam since early s5.

My unpopular opinion is that I would be okay if Jensen played Michael the entire season and Dean didn't come back at all.

Agree with the bolded, but I'm not sure if it is the writing or Jared's interpretation of it. I do know that Jensen puts more nuance into the writing. I wouldn't necessarily want an entire season of Jensen playing Michael, but I would like a half-season like we got with Soulless Sam. Heh, who am I kidding? We're talking about Dean here. :(

[Res]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is not unpopular with me.  I haven't connected with Sam since early s5.

My unpopular opinion is that I would be okay if Jensen played Michael the entire season and Dean didn't come back at all.

I couldn't agree with this more as I really don't see anything good for Dean when he comes back or really any reason for him to come back. As was illustrated as canon last season, he really doesn't care if he lives or dies anymore. All he needs is his family alive. And, Lord knows, prior to this, his mother really couldn't careless if he lived or died. 

And MY UO is that it depends on the day (or dog) as to whether his brother cares so . . . 

Cas has Jack now and Jack has Cas.

I can really see where Dean would be very okay with not coming back as long as he can keep Michael from nuking the planet from the inside. In my mind, he could subtly steer Micheal through innuendo and fast talking. That's what I'd love to see but I sincerely doubt we will.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Res
ETA: Additional UO

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Unpopular opinion time.  The Puddle Deep emotions IMO exist because Jared prefers the emotional scenes and IMO that is not Jared's best work. I find I don't buy it when Sam is emotional in these past 4 seasons.

I would say that the one time that Jared's emotional acting resonated with me in the past 4 seasons was in the season 9 finale when he cried while holding Dean's dead body. He made Sam's devastation completely believable IMO. Other than I pretty much agree with you.

[Reganne]

My unpopular opinion on the board is that Jared is sometimes underrated in the Supernatural fandom.  I also think the writers dont tend to write emotional scenes for Sam because they are too busy writing them for Dean who is their main POV character.  It's been seasons since we've had an decent emotional scene written for Sam.  I think the last one was My Brothers Keeper which I thought he pulled off really well.  Most of the emotion we see from Sam these days are the ones that have to be an actors choice.  It doesnt really come with the writing.  That's for sure.

[BoxManLocke]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Unpopular opinion time.  The Puddle Deep emotions IMO exist because Jared prefers the emotional scenes and IMO that is not Jared's best work. I find I don't buy it when Sam is emotional in these past 4 seasons. I thought he was a better emotional actor prior to s11.  I don't know what's changed.  I don't if the writing is too obvious and that works against Jared. Like the hug and cry in 12.22 did not work for me at all. 

Come on now, the original quote was completely unrelated to Jared, and it was perfect, the show's issue isn't with the acting.

 

Emotions are puddle deep because the writing is garbage-tier. Whether it's from lack of talent, lack of communication, lack of management from the showrunners, or straight-up nobody giving a shit, the writers are completely unable to construct character arcs anymore. Hell they even managed to botch Jack's, it was ignored for half a season and was insultingly simplistic and unimaginative.

Noawadays it's like when they start laying out the season, they've got their calendar of episodes, and they just outline the ones that must feature a hug or an emotional scene, then they're off to focus on pitching their crappy little projects to Dabb because he greenlights everything that gets thrown his way. The writers are off to do their own things and don't seem to talk to each other. The plot and characters suffer so much from that lack of focus and cohesion. Everything is all over the place and/or ignored.

When the emotional episode is there, there's nothing to work on. So what happens is the writer of the week will scramble to make up a self-contained arc that gets a good 5 minutes development (sometimes they don't even bother with that), and we're supposed to get weepy. It's embarrassing to watch.

What changed prior to season 11 is the showrunner. Carver sucked in many different ways but he knew how to lay out a standard SPN character arc. When the emotional stuff happened it felt earned most of the time. Now it's more like "you got your tears/hug, now fuck off. Here's more Lucifer or whatever side character we're trying to push this week".

 

As long as they can't sort their shit out in the writer's room I don't expect anything to change, especially with the completely unnecessary last-minute additions with Bobby and Charlie. That's just more characters to take care of and they can't even manage three of them properly.

 

Whether it was Jared or Jensen crying in season 13 it felt the same : bland. Just going through the motions. Great acting only goes so far. I don't give a rat's ass if Jensen is selling Sam's death well in episode 13.21 when's Sam's death was one of the most laughably terrible scenes the show has ever had.

Edited June 29, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My unpopular opinion is that I would be okay if Jensen played Michael the entire season and Dean didn't come back at all.

I can understand this completely. But I'd accept him lasting until the hiatus, as long as Dabb's interpretation of Dean isn't the character that comes back.

Maybe Michael could leave a residue of his grace in Dean and THAT would make it possible for Dean Winchester to make a bona fide comeback.

Or, even better, maybe everyone could just think Michael left a residue of his grace in Dean when, in truth, it would just be say S2 Dean who returned. Or PurgatoryDean, for that matter.

[BlueSapphire]

I've been watching this show since season 2, but I really stopped giving a crap about Dean's self-hatred and low self-esteem schtick years ago.  That's been definite drinking game material over the years.

[companionenvy]

Frankly, while I still enjoy the show and want it to continue, I think probably the biggest problem the show has is simply that it has been on for thirteen seasons. At a certain point, stories reach a logical conclusion. You can endlessly defer the final end and keep spinning out plot, but even if your characters have the complexity of Hamlet and King Lear, there comes a time when you've pretty much done all you can do with them. If Shakespeare had wanted,  he could have decided that Hamlet was really only playing dead at the end of the play and written a 5-Act sequel where Hamlet, now the king, or on the run masquerading as a pirate, or whatever, continues brooding about the meaning of life and dithering over whether or not to take decisive action in some sphere or another. And, being Shakespeare, I'm sure he would have written some magnificent soliloquies for the character, and maybe even kept up a quality, scene-by-scene, that matched that of the original. But... he didn't do that, because it was unnecessary, and even Shakespeare would have run into the problem of diminishing returns if he had kept going with Hamlet 3 and Hamlet 4 and Hamlet 13. Similarly, even the longest "great" novels generally cap out in the neighborhood of around 800-1000 pages - and every one of those novels that occurs to me is a legitimate "multi-plot" novel in which there are two or three parallel plotlines of roughly equal importance that operate relatively independently of one another. Novels with an obvious single-character or character-pair focus usually wind up being shorter. 

To a certain extent, there is no real way the writers could have entirely avoided this problem if they were going to keep the show going. I do think, however, they could have mitigated it by committing to longer-term shake-ups in the formula of the show. Paradoxically, this involves owning the fact that you've continued the narrative past the point of real necessity or integrity and not trying to wring as much drama out of the inner lives and interpersonal conflicts of Sam and Dean Winchester. Normally, the sign of a quality show is that the external problems the characters face are in many ways secondary to the psychological dramas going on under the surface. But once you've taken the main characters and their relationship about as far as it can be taken, in order to find new territory you have to change the circumstances rather than the character; we know who Dean Winchester is, but what will he do in totally unprecedented circumstance x or y? And ironically, this actually may lead to character growth and change - it just requires an external impetus. 

I do think, to be fair, that the show has made attempts at doing this, and actually on a pretty regular basis. The problem is that they tend to do it in a half-hearted way in order to return to the status quo in short order. Mary's return in a case in point. Dean, IMO, did get some decent emotional mileage out of her return - but it was far too little; Mary has been around for two seasons and has been totally apart from her sons for the vast majority of the time, which means that they've shorthanded what should have been a psychologically rich scenario for all three Winchesters to "Mary leaves because she doesn't know how to be a mom to grown men; Dean is hurt and angry, but ultimately they hug it out." Worse, Mary isn't herself a terribly compelling character; she's more or less a generic badass woman. So, it isn't as if she's carrying scenes in which she appears without the boys. 

There are other things the show could have done to and with these characters. Sam and Dean actually could have decided to reform an American MoL, and genuinely become leaders of a hunting community. They could have gotten stuck in the AU for a while, and lived as End-verse style rag-tag rebels while encountering and developing relationships with alt versions of previous characters. We could have had an extended plotline where the Winchesters were actually going around and saving monsters from the British MoL. The Winchesters could have died and stayed dead for long enough to have an arc set in Memorex heaven, in which Sam, Dean, and some of their deceased loved ones wind up changing the order of things in the afterlife. Hell, if you really wanted to mix things up, you could have had an arc where one of the Winchesters was dead and in heaven, and they were basically fighting the same war on two different fronts while finding creative ways of communicating with each other sometimes. Or where Sam did (without turning evil) become boy-King of hell while Dean led the armies of heaven, but both of them on their own terms and in collaboration with one another. But all of these things would have involved real risk, and disrupted the dynamic of Sam and Dean hunting monsters together on present-day Earth, never separated for more than an episode and never allowing side-characters to meaningfully shake-up the duo for more than two or three consecutive episodes at a time. 

[Icarus]

I guess on this particular forum my UO is that I like the brothers to be together, I like their relationship, for me that is what drew me in and I felt that that was the whole premis of the show. I don't need them to be on screen together all the time – The End is one of my very favourite episodes and one where I felt Jared really really could act, I had believed and still do that Jensen is the better all round actor, it seems natural to him but that does not make Jared a bad one IMO, he can be stellar sometimes again IMO. I also, UO here I think!!, like the MOTW episodes more than the mytharc ones. I only would like Dean to be Michael if we still get Dean, I personally don't want the storyline to go on too long – especially as I don't believe the current writers would be capable of writing the sort of storyline that I would enjoy Dean/Michael in. I enjoy Castiel and did enjoy Crowley, I love Rowena now (disliked intensely at first until they let her tone it down) and I don't mind Jack. I want Castiel to have a good part of story, but they have just been so bad at writing him that I cringe sometimes at what he has to act out – here's hoping for me anyway that they can bring him into the episodes as more of an integral part of the supernatural verse. Having said all that I certainly don't need or want the brothers relationship to be front and centre all the time.

[Pondlass1]

13 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Great acting only goes so far.

12 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Emotions are puddle deep because the writing is garbage-tier.

I think we're very fortunate in terms of actors - although Jensen wins hands down and has given many many Emmy-worthy performances.  It's the damn writing!! The damn editing (lately). And the damn showrunner we've got now!  Jared can't reach the emotional depths that Jensen can, but I don't care about that.  He portrays a very different brother.  So I'm cool.

I guess my UO is that the series has gone on for too damn long and 14 should wind things up.  Too much Heaven & Hell for too many seasons.   Ok for a big budget movie, but not ok for a low budget CW enterprise where episodes are shot in 8 days.  We got a bargain basement torch lit "Hell" (or whatever that room with the tiny throne was supposed to be) and a few miscellaneous demons mingling about, and Heaven is apparently LED lit - with electrical issues and filing cabinets!!  And, for some odd reason, both angels and demons wear North American business suits and are indistinguishable from one other. Angels and demons - what's the difference? And who cares about any of them and their problems?  They never bothered to make us care.

And everyone has pretty much died to the point I just file my nails when another regular keels over. In fact, whenever I see any of the regular characters getting in trouble  my reaction is not what it was years ago (edge of sofa).  Now I don't get worried about what will happen next but rather I just know that whatever mess they get into won't even be an issue next episode, probably not even mentioned again. The fact that they've used this technique so much has taken away  any suspenders for me. 

Long story short - it's past its sell-by date.  The acting  (Ackting LOL) can't carry the load any more. A supernatural themed series could take us anywhere in horror, but TPTB are afraid to get off that well trodden safe path they've followed for so long. 

Season 14 should be it!  The thrill is gone (IMO).  It's an iconic respected show that will be in syndication 25 yrs from now.  And Baby should be in the Smithsonian and not Jensen's garage (now there's an UO for you!!).

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

And Baby should be in the Smithsonian and not Jensen's garage (now there's an UO for you!!).

For what it's worth, there are multiple Impalas.  Jensen will get the "Hero" version, the one with the souped up engine. I would be willing to bet there will another Impala stashed away at WB for posterity.

[gonzosgirrl]

It's a nice thought,  the Impala in the Smithsonian, but the mainstream entertainment world barely recognizes the show exists,  despite its record of longevity and some stellar acting at times. So it would be a minor miracle if the car got that kind of accolade. And IMO, its Jensen/Dean that elevated the car to mythical status within the fandom beyond 5x22. He deserves to take her home when the lights go out. 

[FlickChick]

@companionenvy, I agree that the show has been on so long, that it has reached its natural end-date. However, all the ideas you mentioned for potential storylines and characters show me what some creative thinkers/writers/showrunner could bring to the table. Alas that is not what we have, so that shows me that the real problem is exactly what @Pondlass1 said in her bolded statement. And I am very bitter about the lack of direction from a competent showrunner and the total lack of imagination from this writing staff. So many possibilities, so little creativity...

[Bobcatkitten]

I enjoy Cas but my UO is that the angel/heaven stuff has been kept around too long just so that Cas makes sense in the Winchester's lives. 

[DeeDee79]

56 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I enjoy Cas but my UO is that the angel/heaven stuff has been kept around too long just so that Cas makes sense in the Winchester's lives. 

Agree so much with this. Even in seasons 4 & 5 when the angels were still new they didn't dominate so much of the SL as they do now even though it would have made perfect sense if they did back then. I wish that the writers would realize that Cas can be written without all of the angel/heaven drama that is almost as tiresome as Lucifer at this point.

[BoxManLocke]

On 30/06/2018 at 12:02 AM, FlickChick said:

@companionenvy, I agree that the show has been on so long, that it has reached its natural end-date. However, all the ideas you mentioned for potential storylines and characters show me what some creative thinkers/writers/showrunner could bring to the table. Alas that is not what we have, so that shows me that the real problem is exactly what @Pondlass1 said in her bolded statement. And I am very bitter about the lack of direction from a competent showrunner and the total lack of imagination from this writing staff. So many possibilities, so little creativity...

What's been worrying in the last few episodes of season 13 is that the crew seem to have given up as well, to some extent.

Forget about the writing for a minute. It's obviously the biggest gear in the Supernatural machine (and one that is currently rusty as fuck), but not the only one. I think great acting and directing can at least makes some scenes look cool and have a positive impact on an poorly written episode, but good lord, the actions scenes in particular in the last 3 episodes of season 13 have been some of the worst I've seen on TV. Dreadful directing, choreography, music... And it's really concerning to me that people on set okayed these scenes.

When there's nobody who cares enough to set up some standard of quality you get scenes like Nazi Castiel and the wired fight. It's frankly embarrassing to have to sit through that shit.

[Pondlass1]

The exposition driving at night in the rain scenes are getting stale now, even tho Jensen does do a realistic job of eyes on the road.

These scenes should be given over to the Js (especially Jensen) to set up and film with Jensen actually driving the car along a BC back road  (classic rock blaring).  Then at least there'd be something to look forward to in each episode.  And it would give the boys something to do instead of hanging about in their trailers while Dabb dreams up another super hero fight  in the sky.

I wonder if AU Michael drives Baby?

[FlickChick]

19 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

What's been worrying in the last few episodes of season 13 is that the crew seem to have given up as well, to some extent.

Forget about the writing for a minute. It's obviously the biggest gear in the Supernatural machine (and one that is currently rusty as fuck), but not the only one. I think great acting and directing can at least makes some scenes look cool and have a positive impact on an poorly written episode, but good lord, the actions scenes in particular in the last 3 episodes of season 13 have been some of the worst I've seen on TV. Dreadful directing, choreography, music... And it's really concerning to me that people on set okayed these scenes.

When there's nobody who cares enough to set up some standard of quality you get scenes like Nazi Castiel and the wired fight. It's frankly embarrassing to have to sit through that shit.

Unfortunately, I agree 100%. The show used to have wonderful directing (usually) and the background music - by the same two guys - used to be softer, in cue with the scene, and of course, more classic rock. I really have to wonder what the hell all these guys are smoking. How in god's name did Dabb get this job and how is he keeping it? I personally think that Singer is the greater problem - too out of touch with everything and Dabb doesn't have the sac to disagree with him. But, if the crew really has given up, then the next step will be our stars. I have to wonder even how those last three episodes got past the Js. I remember that in S11 they did some rewriting and other interventions to make the episodes more presentable. So how did this crap get past them? I really had hoped for a series finale at episode 300.

[catrox14]

moved to bitter spoilers. Sorry thought that was where I was when I first posted this. My bad. Moved to Bitter Spoilers.

Edited July 9, 2018 by catrox14
moved to other thread