Reganne

I agree. I dont see the Sam love letter thing others seem to see. For example, Sam hasnt really had much in terms of a storyline since season 9. In season 13, he got knocked unconscious so much they actually had to make a joke about it on the show. When they supposedly want to "tell" the audience Sam can be a leader, they half ass it. They really only showed him making mistakes and he never really had a chance to shine prior to getting the entirety of his people killed. His leadership didnt accomplish anything and ended up pointless. The narrative relied heavily on the tell and forgot to show us Sam's abilities which is a lazy way of writing and tells me they couldnt be bothered enough to actually take the time to write something decent.

But that's not all that happened. John said to Sam that if he had of killed the demon when he had the chance, none of this would have happened. When Sam pointed out that it would have killed John, John snapped back and said that Dean would in turn be awake. So yes while a lot of Sam's guilt comes from him fighting with John, that doesnt take away from the fact that John blamed Sam for Dean being in a coma.

I completely agree. Its talked about quite a bit in fandom how John puts the burden on Dean to kill or save Sam. I agree that it would put a great deal of burden on Dean. However it's never really discussed how John asked Sam to kill him and then blamed him for not doing it as well as for the consequences of Dean being in a coma bc Sam couldnt kill John. Not to mention, this was one of the last conversations Sam had with his father before his death. Of course Sam would feel guilty over that.

I purchased it on google play and this has been happening all the time with episodes and I wish I hadnt of bothered spending the money on it. Because I am impatient, we have had to find other ways to watch it on friday night. I didnt have this problem last season though. Season 13 episodes were always released the next day.... give or take maybe one episode.

I agree. I think Sam does need closure with John. One of the last things Sam said to John was "Go to hell!" for one. Then we had Sam say to Dean that he feels guilty over his relationship with his father after he died. Then Sam's feelings regarding John's death were seemingly dropped. The only other time I remember it being brought up was in the Song remains the same where he confessed his feelings to young John which IMO is not really the same thing as actually getting to speak with his father in present day. Especially considering that young John's memory was wiped. In real life, people dont get the opportunity to write their wrongs or guilt regarding deceased loved ones, but I can only guess on how many people wish they could. Not saying Sam was necessarily in the wrong but its apparent he harboured guilt regarding his part in his relationship with his father.

My takeaway is that Sam still blames himself. He said that AU Bobby was right when he criticized Sam in the first place. Sometimes that happens in real life. People get heated over things and whether they are right or wrong about it, they apologize after. I'm not really getting what you're aiming for as this takeaway. I dont take what other characters say as gospel truth. They arent always right.

Dean get compared bc this is the bitch vs jerk thread. The reason why he gets brought into these conversations is bc I dont understand how the Gary Stu would apply to Sam and not Dean. People claim that Sam's mistakes are forgiven. So are Dean's. There are complaints of characters following or still loving Sam. They still do with Dean as well. In fact characters gravitate to Dean more than Sam so I dont get how characters liking Sam makes him a Gary stu. I dont see the writers having this interest in Sam more than other characters TBH.

People are saying that Dean and Mary gave Sam support. TBH that happens even when people make mistakes in real life. That's why I was asking what would be the point in them ripping into him. As far as AU Bobby. He was mad at Sam He only came to once Maggie was safe. Yes he had other things going on, but he was angry with Sam until Maggie was safe and at that point what would be the point in laying it into Sam?

IMO Sam's mistakes have consequences. Dean's quite often dont. And for Sam the consequences are usually grave. Quite often, Dean's mistakes are overlooked as the narrative focuses on Sam's. Take the apacalypse with the release of Lucifer. This was all blamed on Sam. Dean's breaking of the first seal forgotten. Sam releasing the darkness. Dean should have had more consequences to taking the MOC. As it is, the narrative switches to make Sam the culprit of the bigger consequences of the MOC. Dean becomes a demon bc of the MOC, but really he doesnt do much damage. Instead the narrative makes Sam out to be worse than Dean. It's crazy how little consequences Dean actually faces in comparison to Sam. But yet Sam is a Gary Stu? Doesnt make a lot of sense. What would be the point of having them all rip into Sam at that point? That's what I dont understand. I dont take what other characters say as seriously as some others. I look more into what is shown onscreen than what characters say. And what do you think of both Sam and Jack saying that Michael's actions arent Dean's fault?

More characters seem to gravitate towards Dean though. Cas still loves him through all his faults. Crowley followed and preferred him etc. Because I dont see it that way. There are so many ways someone could make him super Sam and they're not. He still needs help etc.

I disagree. As for ep 23. Sam would be dead if it weren't for Dean as well. That's my point with the whole saving people thing. Lucifer would have killed Sam if Dean had not made a deal with Michael. Therefore Dean saved Sam as well. Also you bring up Patience giving Dean the heads up as her saving him, but Dean saved her and was the one who killed the wraith. He did more than Patience did who was tied to a chair. For the most part, I was talking about Sam getting knocked out, down, unconscious etc. I usually say in the last half of season 13 bc that is when it happens the most. That is what I was referring to. He could have done that without having Dean solve and do it all. That really wasnt necessary to showcase Micharl possibly being in Dean. They could have had another character come in after the relevation if they didnt want Dean to be shown as capable. It wouldnt have been that hard. If he were trying to show Dean as weak, there are so many possibilities he could have came up with.

Mary Sue's are perfect characters. Perfect characters dont get addicted to demon blood. Just bc a character gets a compliment, that doesnt make them a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue wouldnt have sent Maggie out on a run by herself and a Mary sue would have solved the djinn case all by themself including saving Maggie. I think the term Mary Sue or in this case it would be Gary Stu is starting to be overused.

TBH I dont keep track of the saving thing, bc every character needs help at times and many times it's two of them working together. Not to mention just as easily as you say Sam saved Dean in episode 23, I would say Dean saved Sam in that very episode. As far as being knocked out/unconscious this is the track record for Sam the last half of season 13. Ep 10 knocked out and tied to a tree (as was Dean) Ep 11 knocked out and tied to table Ep 12 punched out by Dean and knocked out Ep 13 Not knocked out Ep 14 Knocked down by Donatello Ep 15 Knocked out......found by Dean on floor. Dean makes comment about him taking hits to the head lately Ep 16 Not knocked out Ep 17 Tampered with food. Goes unconscious and is dragged away Ep 18 Gets knocked around by demons/asmodeus and does nothing to help himself Ep 19 Gets knocked out by Rowena and kidnapped Ep 20 Nearly choked out but saved by Gabriel Ep 21 Sam dies Ep 22 Not knocked out but I dont remember Sam leading this one. Ep 23 Kidnapped by Lucifer So much for Super Sam

I dont understand. If Dabb wants super Sam, why on earth would he have the character constantly getting knocked out in season 13. What exactly is so super about getting knocked out all the time. This type of speculation doesnt make sense to me. Not to mention, Dean still got the opportunity to figure out the djinn case on his own and also kill him all on his own. Why would someone who wants to show super Sam allow that to happen? Shouldn't he have had Sam do that to showcase just how super he is?

I agree. I saw no redemption for Sam in season 10. The whole season ended with him being the frontrunner in starting another apacalypse. That's not a redemption in the slightest. He gets crapped on for not looking for Dean in purgatory. Then when he does everything in season 10 to save Dean, he gets crapped on for Charlie's death and starting another apacalypse. Honestly for Sam's character, its damned if he does... damned if he doesnt.