Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lol, I knew someone would pick that nit ;)  Yeah, the shifter wasn't Dean any more than Dean Smith or Levi Dean was, but they were all versions of Dean - that is to s

Respectfully , it's not a nitpick IMO

. I could see obvious differences between the shifter personality and our Dean. His voice changed, the cadence of speech changedwhen he was with Sam and the girl. Ther was an internal bitterness and rage and sadness in the shifter that turned to malevolence in an instant. I could really see two different characters entirely, not two versions of Dean.

As an aside, I've always thought it's an overlooked acting performance  by Jensen playing a different character

I know a bit the French Mistake thing. But I think Jensen may have had a change of heart in the last few years. I could see Jensen being g okay with playing Michael for a couple of episodes.

I dunno maybe Jensen is worried folks will love his Michael so much he won't be able to get away from it

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Respectfully , it's not a nitpick IMO

. I could see obvious differences between the shifter personality and our Dean. His voice changed, the cadence of speech changedwhen he was with Sam and the girl. Ther was an internal bitterness and rage and sadness in the shifter that turned to malevolence in an instant. I could really see two different characters entirely, not two versions of Dean.

As an aside, I've always thought it's an overlooked acting performance  by Jensen playing a different character

I know a bit the French Mistake thing. But I think Jensen may have had a change of heart in the last few years. I could see Jensen being g okay with playing Michael for a couple of episodes.

I dunno maybe Jensen is worried folks will love his Michael so much he won't be able to get away from it

And as I tried to explain above, it's still a character people are calling Dean Winchester, a character trying to be Dean. As for the rest I don't disagree I just putting it out there.

[companionenvy]

I was under the impression that Jensen didn't want to play a version of himself in the French Mistake, not that he was opposed to playing any not-Dean characters. 

I have no particular wish to see Michael Dean. Of course, my dream is for an episode in which Dean acts as a severely injured Cas's vessel, but I think the odds of that are even lower than the odds of Dean!Michael. 

 My bitter rant for the season? I honestly cannot believe how much the writers have squandered the potential of the alt-verse. Like, a bare minimum for pretty much every sci-fi/fantasy alt-verse ever is that we get to see interestingly different versions of canon characters. In this world, we've had a Bobby who is more or less a generic hunter, two minutes of caffeine-high Kevin, angel stooge number six Zachariah, and Michael, who never really had a personality in our reality either. Even sticking with the precedent set by Supernatural itself, there has been no interesting or entertaining character work on the level of What is and What Should Never Be Dean, or End-Verse Cas and Dean, or corporate drone Winchesters, or heck, even the French Mistake verse versions of Misha, Jensen and Jared, the latter two of whom manage to be a presence without actually appearing on screen. I get that we couldn't really have alt-Winchesters in this AU, given that it results from Sam and Dean not having been born, but I would have loved seeing an AU Cas, and there's no shortage of other characters the show could have brought back in surprising and meaningful ways. And who our Sam and Dean could have interacted with had they spent more than a hot minute in the alt-verse.

[Katy M]

Here is my apparently Extremely unpopular opinion.  I love the character of Dean.  So, I don't want to see him thrown out in favor of Michael.  Not even a little.  Not even at all.  I mean if it's one epi, sure, that's fine.  But, that's not really what I'm getting that people want.  they want a Michael/Michael, or a Michael/Lucifer season long battle or something.  No.  Just no.  

[Jeddah]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Here is my apparently Extremely unpopular opinion.  I love the character of Dean.  So, I don't want to see him thrown out in favor of Michael.  Not even a little.  Not even at all.  I mean if it's one epi, sure, that's fine.  But, that's not really what I'm getting that people want.  they want a Michael/Michael, or a Michael/Lucifer season long battle or something.  No.  Just no.  

I didn’t particularly like Sam being Lucifer’s vessel, and I hated Cas as Lucifer’s vessel. So I’m with you on not wanting to see Dean as Michael’s vessel. The guy who’s playing Michael is doing a good job, and I’d like for the character to be explored more with him.

[catrox14]

For me, since AU Michael is not "our" Michael, I can see them exploring the AU Michael further and having Dean be 'our' Michael for an episode or two. 

[ahrtee]

If they hadn't set up the angels as so freaking arrogant (and Michael--both AU and ours--as such a dick) then I think it would be interesting to have Michael and Dean *share* the meatsuit, while working together to get the win.  Dean would be the emotional center (since Archangels supposedly don't have any such "weaknesses") as well as being able to think strategically (and in ways that wouldn't even occur to other angels); while Michael has the strength and power to carry out the plans.  It would be nice to see a symbiosis of human and angel instead of one being totally subsumed.   *sigh* But that'll never happen on this show.

[trxr4kids]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If they hadn't set up the angels as so freaking arrogant (and Michael--both AU and ours--as such a dick) then I think it would be interesting to have Michael and Dean *share* the meatsuit, while working together to get the win.  Dean would be the emotional center (since Archangels supposedly don't have any such "weaknesses") as well as being able to think strategically (and in ways that wouldn't even occur to other angels); while Michael has the strength and power to carry out the plans.  It would be nice to see a symbiosis of human and angel instead of one being totally subsumed.   *sigh* But that'll never happen on this show.

I read a fanfic that had a similar premise unfortunately is was incomplete as far as I recall. But I agree, it will never happen *echoes sigh*

[ahrtee]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

I read a fanfic that had a similar premise unfortunately is was incomplete as far as I recall. But I agree, it will never happen *echoes sigh*

I was actually thinking of SG1, the Tok'ra vs. Goa'uld--one sharing a "host's" body and working together, one Evil and enslaving its host.   Not that copying something has ever stopped our writers before! :)

[Lemuria]

Quote

I don't recall Jensen ever lamenting not playing Michael, as much as a segment of fandom has talked about it

I can tell you that he indicated he was not happy the way season 5 turned out.  This was in March of the year that season 5 ended (I can't remember which year it was!) and I knew from that, that Dean, JA and Dean fans were getting screwed.  And, lo, and behold!

He's more outspoken these days when he's unhappy about something than he was back then.  (He definitely expected to be playing Michael; that's why he took over giving Matt Cohen direction, because he wanted Matt's portrayal to match what he intended to do.)  

[iknowyouknow]

Here's one that seems very unpopular: the fourth season of this show was my very favorite. By far! And I don't usually like when my shows get grimmer, darker and more "epic" in scope, but I felt like S4 still retained a lot of SPN's humor and intimacy while getting a lot more interesting and thought-provoking. It contains a lot of my favorite episodes, and I'll always cherish how much I enjoyed the introduction of Castiel and the heaven/hell/angels mythology as it was back then or at least had the potential to be versus how it was dragged out and mangled over the next million seasons :) 

I will add that I love Sam and Dean, and even though I understand why a lot of Sam fans feel that S4 assassinated his character, I felt like Sam's motivations and behavior were more understandable and even sympathetic in S4 than most other seasons.

[Pondlass1]

Season 4 was great - it offered a whole bunch of outstanding episodes.  My UO regarding that season is probably that the two featured actresses weren't particularly good (Anna and Ruby Two) however the actress portraying Pamela was awesome.  Wished we'd see more of her.

These later seasons - 11 (Amara), 12 (BMOL) can't even compare.

[iknowyouknow]

Quote

My UO regarding that season is probably that the two featured actresses weren't particularly good (Anna and Ruby Two) however the actress portraying Pamela was awesome

I actually love Anna for some strange reason. The closest I've come to really shipping on this show is Dean/Anna because I always seem to develop the strangest shipping preferences possible. But I agree with you completely about Pamela. I really loved her and wish we'd seen more of her. And I'm very excited that you share my love for S4!

[Jeddah]

2 hours ago, iknowyouknow said:

Here's one that seems very unpopular: the fourth season of this show was my very favorite. By far! And I don't usually like when my shows get grimmer, darker and more "epic" in scope, but I felt like S4 still retained a lot of SPN's humor and intimacy while getting a lot more interesting and thought-provoking. It contains a lot of my favorite episodes, and I'll always cherish how much I enjoyed the introduction of Castiel and the heaven/hell/angels mythology as it was back then or at least had the potential to be versus how it was dragged out and mangled over the next million seasons :) 

I will add that I love Sam and Dean, and even though I understand why a lot of Sam fans feel that S4 assassinated his character, I felt like Sam's motivations and behavior were more understandable and even sympathetic in S4 than most other seasons.

I liked Season 4 for all the reasons you mentioned!

 

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

My UO regarding that season is probably that the two featured actresses weren't particularly good (Anna and Ruby Two)

For an embarrassingly long time, I really thought Anna was played by Jessica Chastain. I was impressed she went from being Anna to being nominated for an Oscar. I didn’t think she was terrible acting-wise, but I really should have been able to tell she wasn’t Jessica Chastain.

[Res]

8 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Season 4 was great - it offered a whole bunch of outstanding episodes.  My UO regarding that season is probably that the two featured actresses weren't particularly good (Anna and Ruby Two) however the actress portraying Pamela was awesome.  Wished we'd see more of her.

These later seasons - 11 (Amara), 12 (BMOL) can't even compare.

The 1st half of season 4 was great IMO. I just didn't like the back half that much. I'm not really sure if I can state why.

I really didn't like Ruby 2.0 (sorry, Gen/Jared) and almost hated Anna more. I think that came down to acting. Ruby 2.0 just was pathetically whiny and needy to me while Anna's portrayal screamed B*TCH! at me. 

I did LOVE Pamela, though. I hated that she got killed.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Res said:

The 1st half of season 4 was great IMO. I just didn't like the back half that much. I'm not really sure if I can state why.

For the Too Long: Didn't Read inclined, please see the bolded parts below if you prefer or skip entirely.

I feel similarly, except that I can say why I didn't like the back half as much. I can even say when it started to happen. I guess it wasn't quite the first half in terms of numbers of episodes, but at the midseason break. For me first run, everything was pretty much clicking along until "Heaven and Hell." And that episode was sort of a representation of what happened to season 4 in general for me. The set up from "I Know What You Did..." was fairly good even if not as informative as I had hoped, but that set up fell apart a bit for me in "H&H." I was good with the "Godzilla vs Mothra" part, but Anna's set up just somehow seemed a bit lame for what the potential could have been, and I still knew next to nothing about the angels' motives even though it seems like I should've learned something.

And then after that episode, everything seemed to go into a depressing, frustrating (for me) holding pattern. I could see something was happening, but the show didn't really explain what that was for way too long. It gave hints that were at the time confusing even though they made sense (way) later, but by the time the show explained them, I'd lost connection and almost didn't care any more. Other aspects that were very important to the plot for me - like Sam's motivation for starting to drink demon blood again (even though we didn't then know that's what it was) - for me didn't make sense and weren't explained well, even in retrospect. And then when then show finally told us what was going on, it was all crammed together in one episode of overload. "On the Head of a Pin" crammed the climax of at least three plot balls - Dean and Alastair (which could even be considered two plot points, with the reveal of Dean breaking the first seal), the angel killings / what Uriel was up to, and Sam drinking demon blood - all together in one episode. The next episode, though my favorite of the season, shifted tone entirely  - along with the beginning of the next episode - for a brief moment before the rest of the season zig-zagged between depressing plot heavy and depressing but mostly filler episodes.

So I think for me, I can sum it up as pacing problems and lack of connection. The writers wanted to keep the mystery going, but in doing so, I lost connection with the plot and with one of the main characters (Sam). By the time the explanation came for the Uriel plot, I was saying "wait a minute... what? What does this have to do with the actual main plot? (Answer: nothing), so why do I care at this point? (Answer: I pretty much didn't anymore). And by the time the explanation for Sam came, it was almost too late for me to feel connected to his motivation... which in retrospect still didn't make any sense. The vagueness of "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" wasn't really explained by what we learned was going on, and the lack of Sam POV just made it more difficult for me to sympathize with him than if I'd seen more of his motivation earlier.

So I kind of felt like Castiel in the second half of season 4,... bumbling along trying to understand what the writers/higher ups were telling me only to find out what they were telling me wasn't really important (the angel killings were a red herring) or was poorly explained (Sam's motivation) and in the end wasn't what was really going on anyway (the angels were actually the bad guys who actually didn't want to stop the seals from breaking). Some people may not mind that kind of storytelling, but I generally find it annoying, especially the motivation part. At least in the case of season 4... Contrast this with the mystery of season 6 - which I loved - because the motivation was explained in detail, so that for me it connected me to the story and made sense in retrospect. I also don't remember as many red herrings in season 6 - except the Samuel plot which was a bit of one, but not as annoying as the angel killings that went nowhere.

Edited March 7, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[sarthaz]

Watching Season 4 now (The Rapture), and Dean just lost another demon by announcing he's going to kill it before doing so.  Which one of you wants to make the fan video of all the times bad guys got away because our heroes cinematicly telegraphed the kill shot?

I liked Anna, although I didn't buy her turn in Song Remains the Same.

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I liked Anna, although I didn't buy her turn in Song Remains the Same.

It only makes sense to me because of the angel torture. I'm just not sure why the angels let Anna out or what exactly they wanted her to do. It's one of those plot things left over from season 4 that didn't quite fit for me.

[Wayward Son]

7 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Watching Season 4 now (The Rapture), and Dean just lost another demon by announcing he's going to kill it before doing so.  Which one of you wants to make the fan video of all the times bad guys got away because our heroes cinematicly telegraphed the kill shot?

I liked Anna, although I didn't buy her turn in Song Remains the Same.

 

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It only makes sense to me because of the angel torture. I'm just not sure why the angels let Anna out or what exactly they wanted her to do. It's one of those plot things left over from season 4 that didn't quite fit for me.

Personally, I think Anna was a loose end the writers wanted to wrap up due to a change of direction. When they first cast Anna she was intended to play the role of chief angelic ally and rebel against Heaven. She may also have been intended as a love interest for Dean based on their scene in Heaven and Hell. However, due to the extreme popularity of Cas/Misha her function on the show was transferred to him instead (minus the love interest for Dean part). 

 

I think she got shafted as they needed to get rid of her now Cas had taken over her intended role, and they decided using her as an excuse to base an episode in the past for backstory was the best way to go. 

[MysteryGuest]

I always liked Anna.  I thought her part was interesting.  The actress was on Mad Men around the same time, and I always liked her on that as well.  I have no idea what their original intent for her was, but I didn't like how things ended with her.  

Never a fan of either Ruby, though I did prefer Gen's version compared to Cassidy's.  She always seemed too "superheroish" for my taste.  

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I think she got shafted as they needed to get rid of her now Cas had taken over her intended role, and they decided using her as an excuse to base an episode in the past for backstory was the best way to go. 

I agree. This sums up what I've always thought as well for all of the reasons that you've stated. 

[trudysmom]

Does anyone know if CW has announced renewing for SPN another season?  Because it's starting to feel like this is a wrapping-up season.  Get mommy back (urk), Jack helps sort of get rid of Lucifer (not kill, back in the cage probably) and Michael, the world is saved, again, and for the time being, is safer.  In the big battle the boys sacrifice themselves one final time, and that's it.  Wayward Sisters is maybe left with Jack, maybe even Mommy (more urk), and run of the mill MOW.  

The boys look tired.  Not the characters,  Jared and Jensen look weary.  Maybe it's the part of the season that's wearing on them, but I have to wonder if they, like us ever look at the script and say "THIS again??".  Do they get frustrated with history repeating itself, or being changed to suit a current storyline?  I won't say I can't watch anymore, I'll keep watching, painfully. But the spark is gone, for me.  No classic rock, a token bit of snark between the brothers now and again.  I feel like they're tossing us bones of the show I once loved.  

[Wayward Son]

The ultimate unpopular opinion.... the impala should never have been brought back after Slash Fiction! In fact it should have gone earlier. The fact they drive it while being so well known to law enforcement is absolutely ridiculous and eye roll worthy. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Casseiopeia]

16 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

ever look at the script and say "THIS again??"

Actually they mentioned this episode at a recent con.  They were both very excited about it.  They thought it had a Butch and Sundance/Brother vibe to it.  I'm sure it looked good on paper but the execution just wasn't there.

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Actually they mentioned this episode at a recent con.  They were both very excited about it.  They thought it had a Butch and Sundance/Brother vibe to it.  I'm sure it looked good on paper but the execution just wasn't there.

If this episode is their idea of good... Thank goodness J2 were never made producers LOL 

[Casseiopeia]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If this episode is their idea of good... Thank goodness J2 were never made producers LOL 

In their defense they didn't get to see the finished product.  They made those comments as they were wrapping up filming.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If this episode is their idea of good... Thank goodness J2 were never made producers LOL 

I think a lot of things they (the actors in general)  think are good when it's being filmed may not quite turn out as they expected. I think it happens a lot in this show.

[Bobcatkitten]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think a lot of things they (the actors in general)  think are good when it's being filmed may not quite turn out as they expected. I think it happens a lot in this show.

Or they could be like me, who loved the episode. Not everyone agrees on what counts as good or bad. 

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Or they could be like me, who loved the episode. Not everyone agrees on what counts as good or bad. 

I'm not arguing against that. Just saying that at times, the show flubs and they know it. And things don't turn out as expected. That's literally all I was saying. Everyone is certainly entitled to enjoy or not enjoy as the case may be.

[FlickChick]

@trudysmom, in answer to your question, NO, nothing has been mentioned about a renewal or end of series. Many here think we'll get some info at Paleyfest or definitely at May upfronts. I'm of the opinion that we have at least another half-season (to get to episode 300) or more before the end and that we'll get an announcement from The CW regarding a final season.

[Bergamot]

I have been disappointed for a while now with the writing for the show, this last episode being a case in point. It's maybe not so much that I am bitter; it's just that I hate to think that this is the best they can do now.

To give one small example, the mob boss in "A Most Holy Man" was such a cliche: he sits in a chair stroking a Persian cat, listening to opera music, uttering vague threats in overly formal language. I mean, did Dabb and/or Singer somehow think the fact that he is stroking a Persian cat was clever or funny? This is such a lazy way to write, and does nothing to make him less of a two-dimensional character.

Instead of just creating a character out of a collection of cliches, why can't the writers do something to surprise us or intrigue us or make us laugh, something to subvert our expectations (or to at least acknowledge the cliches they are using) -- something to bring the character to life, even if he is only on the screen for a few moments? I don't know, maybe have the mob boss stroking an iguana or something, and have him explain that he used to have a Persian cat but developed an allergy to it. (And okay, I know that my idea is obviously not a good one, but then, I am not the one who gets paid for writing a TV show!) Just do something to make the character more than a cardboard cutout.

Another example of the writers being lazy: including yet another scene where Dean sloppily stuffs food into his mouth and Sam watches him with disapproval.I find it difficult to believe that anyone would find this amusing or entertaining any more. Seriously, in regard to this dumb, lazy joke about Dean and food, the writers need to stop. Just stop it, writers!  If you have to use a cliche, at least use it in a way that illuminates a point about the characters or the story -- or, if nothing else, in a way that entertains us! Again, do something to subvert our expectations. You know what I think would be funny? If they had a scene where, for some reason (I can't think of a reason, but again, you know, they are supposed to be the writers), Sam is sloppily stuffing food into his mouth and it is falling out as he talks with his mouth full, and Dean is watching in amazement and maybe even admiration.

To illustrate how the writers are actually able to do a good job when they make the effort, here's an example of character interaction which I think they have used well, without running it into the ground: Dean and Sam playing Rock Paper Scissors. I like some of the ways they have used it on the show. For example, in "Jump the Shark" Dean and Sam play the game with Adam watching, and Dean, who of course loses, bursts out with frustration --"EVERY TIME!" -- and Sam nods to Adam with an amused, knowing expression that says, "Yep, every time!" I liked that moment because Adam was watching (at that point I still thought that the ghoul Adam was their real brother) and I saw it as giving Adam a little glimpse of what it is like having a brother: the family jokes and little rituals, all the comfortable, familiar moments that make up a lifelong sibling relationship. Which of course was something that Dean and Sam got to have but Adam never did.

Another time that I liked the way the writers used the Rock Paper Scissors game was in "My Heart Will Go On", where Dean actually wins with Scissors --a tiny but sure sign that there is something seriously off-kilter with the world. And of course there is! -- because Dean and Sam are in an alternate reality. I thought this was kind of a clever way to show this.

But my favorite use of the game was in "Love Hurts", where to the complete amazement of both Dean and Sam, Dean manages to win. Sam and Dean's reactions to this are perfect, and very funny. The scene made me laugh the first time I saw it, and I have re-watched Dean's little moment of triumph more than once. As far as I know there is never any explanation as to why Dean suddenly is able to win here at Rock Paper Scissors, and the scene is not important to the plot, but it was a great pay-off to all of the game's previous appearances on the show. It was fun to watch. I only wish being able to say that about the show was not becoming increasingly rare for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

@Bergamot I could quote your whole post.  Well said. I'll just add that I used to laugh with them*, and now, too often, I'm laughing at them. 

*Them being the writers. 

[MysteryGuest]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:58 PM, Wayward Son said:

The ultimate unpopular opinion.... the impala should never have been brought back after Slash Fiction! In fact it should have gone earlier. The fact they drive it while being so well known to law enforcement is absolutely ridiculous and eye roll worthy. 

I can't say that I disagree with this on a realistic level.  I've often laughed to myself whenever there's a scene of them trying to trail someone in that car, or sneak up on anyone.  The engine is so damn loud there's no way they don't hear them coming from a mile away.  And the car is hardly inconspicuous, even if the engine isn't running.  

But I guess I'm willing to suspend my disbelief because I've totally bought into the lore of Baby.  She's as much a character of the show as everyone else.  Baby was one of my favorite episodes of the series.  And my unpopular opinion is that I absolutely loved the homage to Baby in Swan Song.  I loved everything about it...the narration, the toy soldier, all of it.

Edited March 11, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Pondlass1]

Although I enjoyed the caper episode more than most - I have to admit my expectations are low at this point in time.  And I agree the thing with Dean and food is so irritating I want to throttle Jensen for going along with it.

The writing has grown increasingly tired and unimaginative.  It's a shame because everything else is pretty darn good compared to some other TV series I've seen.  Acting, directing, lighting and sets, etc .  But originality and imagination of storytelling have gone out the window.  And everyone they encounter is a one-dimensional stereotype now.

Someone mentioned the lack of urgency nowadays and I have to agree.  I can remember having that little tug in my gut as I watched the early episodes - like, how will they get out of this one? - but now I'm about as lackadaisical about the supernatural goings on as the brothers.  

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Although I enjoyed the caper episode more than most - I have to admit my expectations are low at this point in time.  And I agree the thing with Dean and food is so irritating I want to throttle Jensen for going along with it.

The writing has grown increasingly tired and unimaginative.  It's a shame because everything else is pretty darn good compared to some other TV series I've seen.  Acting, directing, lighting and sets, etc .  But originality and imagination of storytelling have gone out the window.  And everyone they encounter is a one-dimensional stereotype now.

Someone mentioned the lack of urgency nowadays and I have to agree.  I can remember having that little tug in my gut as I watched the early episodes - like, how will they get out of this one? - but now I'm about as lackadaisical about the supernatural goings on as the brothers.  

I agree that the writing is not the quality it once was, but personally I think this is a natural result of a show running as long as Supernatural has. By this point we’ve seen Sam and Dean face so much it’s pretty much impossible to create a scenario with less chance of survival than anything they’ve faced before. Other contributing factors are a) in the case of Sam and Dean we know they’re the stars of the show so they’re gonna be around and survive no matter what. B) The constant resurrections make it harder to fear for the secondary characters although I do still fear for the likes of Cas during season finales since reason a doesn’t apply to them.

[MysteryGuest]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

By this point we’ve seen Sam and Dean face so much it’s pretty much impossible to create a scenario with less chance of survival than anything they’ve faced before.

That's why they need to move away from the "will they or won't they die this week" crap as their only source of drama.  There are other ways to write horror and have it be dramatic and frightening without always having to put your hero in personal peril.  That's what the guest stars are for.  I look at episodes like The Benders, or , The Chitters, two genuinely creepy episodes.  I never once felt that Sam or Dean were going to die in either episode, but that didn't keep them from being creepy as hell and suspenseful.  Even the episode from this season where the monsters were bidding on body parts was creepy.  I personally feel it would have worked better had they been regular people and not monsters, but it was still a very scary story.

You can totally relate to the fear the other characters are experiencing, even while knowing that Sam and Dean are eventually going to save the day.  The people they're saving have never experienced these things before, so they are as scared as we would be if we encountered any of this stuff.  It's not hard to put yourself in their shoes and imagine what they must be going through.  It just seems that the show runners have forgotten that they're writing a show about the supernatural.  It's more like they're writing for Dallas with Lucifer as J.R. Ewing.  Yes, he's an evil piece of shit, but he's not the least bit scary.  I don't want a soap opera, but that's what we're getting lately.

Edited March 11, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The constant resurrections make it harder to fear for the secondary characters although I do still fear for the likes of Cas during season finales since reason a doesn’t apply to them.

Except Cas has been resurrected more than anyone else except Dean (and Sam? not positive on that one), most recently from the place where we were told nope, no way, no how does anything come back from The Empty. Dun dun dunnnnnn!!!!!  So yeah, I'd say a) applies to him in every sense except being one of the two leads.

Edited March 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

13 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I have been disappointed for a while now with the writing for the show, this last episode being a case in point. It's maybe not so much that I am bitter; it's just that I hate to think that this is the best they can do now.

To give one small example, the mob boss in "A Most Holy Man" was such a cliche: he sits in a chair stroking a Persian cat, listening to opera music, uttering vague threats in overly formal language. I mean, did Dabb and/or Singer somehow think the fact that he is stroking a Persian cat was clever or funny? This is such a lazy way to write, and does nothing to make him less of a two-dimensional character.

Instead of just creating a character out of a collection of cliches, why can't the writers do something to surprise us or intrigue us or make us laugh, something to subvert our expectations (or to at least acknowledge the cliches they are using) -- something to bring the character to life, even if he is only on the screen for a few moments? I don't know, maybe have the mob boss stroking an iguana or something, and have him explain that he used to have a Persian cat but developed an allergy to it. (And okay, I know that my idea is obviously not a good one, but then, I am not the one who gets paid for writing a TV show!) Just do something to make the character more than a cardboard cutout.

Another example of the writers being lazy: including yet another scene where Dean sloppily stuffs food into his mouth and Sam watches him with disapproval.I find it difficult to believe that anyone would find this amusing or entertaining any more. Seriously, in regard to this dumb, lazy joke about Dean and food, the writers need to stop. Just stop it, writers!  If you have to use a cliche, at least use it in a way that illuminates a point about the characters or the story -- or, if nothing else, in a way that entertains us! Again, do something to subvert our expectations. You know what I think would be funny? If they had a scene where, for some reason (I can't think of a reason, but again, you know, they are supposed to be the writers), Sam is sloppily stuffing food into his mouth and it is falling out as he talks with his mouth full, and Dean is watching in amazement and maybe even admiration.

To illustrate how the writers are actually able to do a good job when they make the effort, here's an example of character interaction which I think they have used well, without running it into the ground: Dean and Sam playing Rock Paper Scissors. I like some of the ways they have used it on the show. For example, in "Jump the Shark" Dean and Sam play the game with Adam watching, and Dean, who of course loses, bursts out with frustration --"EVERY TIME!" -- and Sam nods to Adam with an amused, knowing expression that says, "Yep, every time!" I liked that moment because Adam was watching (at that point I still thought that the ghoul Adam was their real brother) and I saw it as giving Adam a little glimpse of what it is like having a brother: the family jokes and little rituals, all the comfortable, familiar moments that make up a lifelong sibling relationship. Which of course was something that Dean and Sam got to have but Adam never did.

Another time that I liked the way the writers used the Rock Paper Scissors game was in "My Heart Will Go On", where Dean actually wins with Scissors --a tiny but sure sign that there is something seriously off-kilter with the world. And of course there is! -- because Dean and Sam are in an alternate reality. I thought this was kind of a clever way to show this.

But my favorite use of the game was in "Love Hurts", where to the complete amazement of both Dean and Sam, Dean manages to win. Sam and Dean's reactions to this are perfect, and very funny. The scene made me laugh the first time I saw it, and I have re-watched Dean's little moment of triumph more than once. As far as I know there is never any explanation as to why Dean suddenly is able to win here at Rock Paper Scissors, and the scene is not important to the plot, but it was a great pay-off to all of the game's previous appearances on the show. It was fun to watch. I only wish being able to say that about the show was not becoming increasingly rare for me.

Did you realize it was a combo of homage/sendup of The Maltese Falcon.  The cliche was the POINT, not ‘lazy writing’.  Now perhaps they gave the audience too much credit for understanding this and needed to make a direct reference.  But the names Astor and Greenstreet were pretty obvious.  

Edited March 11, 2018 by SueB

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except Cas has been resurrected more than anyone else except Dean (and Sam? not positive on that one), most recently from the place where we were told nope, no way, no how does anything come back from The Emptly. Dun dun dunnnnnn!!!!!  So yeah, I'd say a) applies to him in every sense except being one of the two leads.

True, but the fact he isn’t a lead like Jared and Jensen still makes the difference IMO. Personally, I don’t think I’ll ever consider Cas 100% safe just look at Bobby*  or Crowley. They were both long term fixtures on the show but were eventually killed off. 

 

*yes, I’m aware that Jim Beaver still makes his seasonal appearances, but once a season isn’t the same as being a regular in all but name like he was from season 2-7.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

True, but the fact he isn’t a lead like Jared and Jensen still makes the difference IMO. Personally, I don’t think I’ll ever consider Cas 100% safe just look at Bobby*  or Crowley. They were both long term fixtures on the show but were eventually killed off. 

 

*yes, I’m aware that Jim Beaver still makes his seasonal appearances, but once a season isn’t the same as being a regular in all but name like he was from season 2-7.

 

They barely waited a day before reassuring the gathering storm of Cas fans that he wasn't really dead. There's no way this crew is going to not cow to appease them this close to the end. Maybe in the last arc before the series finale, if it serves whatever end they come up with. But until then, I'd say Cas is every bit as 'safe' as Dean or Sam.

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

 Now perhaps they gave the audience too much credit for understanding this and needed to make a direct reference.

The mild insult here aside, I got the reference, I just didn't think it was particularly well done. Same with Speight's 'homage' to Tarantino in Stuck In The Middle, it missed the mark for me. This was more Inspector Clouseau than Sam Spade.

Edited March 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bobcatkitten]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

Did you realize it was a combo of homage/sendup of The Maltese Falcon.  The cliche was the POINT, not ‘lazy writing’.  Now perhaps they gave the audience too much credit for understanding this and needed to make a direct reference.  But the names Astor and Greenstreet were pretty obvious.  

Yes to this. The writing is definitely not what it used to be. But this episode isn't the example that should be used. It was purposeful,  not lazy.

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They barely waited a day before reassuring the gathering storm of Cas fans that he wasn't really dead. There's no way this crew is going to not cow to appease them this close to the end. Maybe in the last arc before the series finale, if it serves whatever end they come up with. But until then, I'd say Cas is every bit as 'safe' as Dean or Sam.

 

I love Cas and I wish I felt that assured of his survival, but unfortunately I can’t. He isn’t listed as one of the two leads, when figures like Pedowitz talk about the show ending it’s always “the show will continue for as long as Jared and Jensen want to do it” not “for as  long as Jared, Jensen and Misha want to do it” showing they consider him a lot more expendable. I think we can both agree to disagree on this :) . But hey I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I love Cas and I wish I felt that assured of his survival, but unfortunately I can’t. He isn’t listed as one of the two leads, when figures like Pedowitz talk about the show ending it’s always “the show will continue for as long as Jared and Jensen want to do it” not “for as  long as Jared, Jensen and Misha want to do it” showing they consider him a lot more expendable. I think we can both agree to disagree on this :) . But hey I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

Well I don't want to deprive you of your worries, but I think there's a difference between the show's survival hinging on J2, and Castiel's survival as a character. Everything that has happened on screen supports his security - including resurrection from death-by-showrunner (Gamble). Both Js have stated their feelings that Misha/Cas is there for the duration (paraphrased, don't ask me for quotes), despite the teasing that goes on at cons. I have grown to despise the phrase 'agree to disagree' with the heat of the sun, but in this case I'll go along with it.

[Pondlass1]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

Did you realize it was a combo of homage/sendup of The Maltese Falcon.  The cliche was the POINT, not ‘lazy writing’.  Now perhaps they gave the audience too much credit for understanding this and needed to make a direct reference.  But the names Astor and Greenstreet were pretty obviou

I've never seen or even heard of The Maltese Falcon, I had to look it up.  Thanks for this info.  I enjoyed the episode.  I'll enjoy it a bit more now knowing that it was a sendup of what appears to be a very well respected movie.  Wow.

I'll have to check if it's available on Netflix, although I have a hard time staying interested in old movies.  The acting is usually so wooden and forced 

[Aeryn13]

I got the reference but thought the episode itself was still pretty lackluster. Just found the Mafia shenanigans boring for the most part. Just don`t think  the SPN writers have a hand for either a funny parody of old movies or a clever homage or doing a new spin on something. I watched a lot of classics with my mom as a kid so I recognize the movies but that doesn`t mean I necessarily enjoy the "homages".  

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Did you realize it was a combo of homage/sendup of The Maltese Falcon.  The cliche was the POINT, not ‘lazy writing’.  Now perhaps they gave the audience too much credit for understanding this and needed to make a direct reference.

Since you asked, yes of course I knew this. Copying The Maltese Falcon has, of course, been done so often that it has become a cliche. That's why I said, "If you have to use a cliche, at least use it in a way that illuminates a point about the characters or the story -- or, if nothing else, in a way that entertains us".  Copying something, even something good, doesn't make your copy automatically worthwhile, whether you call it a "homage" or not. I did not find their homage to be particularly clever or interesting or fun to watch.

[Res]

19 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Since you asked, yes of course I knew this. Copying The Maltese Falcon has, of course, been done so often that it has become a cliche. That's why I said, "If you have to use a cliche, at least use it in a way that illuminates a point about the characters or the story -- or, if nothing else, in a way that entertains us".  Copying something, even something good, doesn't make your copy automatically worthwhile, whether you call it a "homage" or not. I did not find their homage to be particularly clever or interesting or fun to watch.

If I'm allowed to "really express my opinion"  . . . and Please excuse me if I'm not as apparently I'm unaware where I'm supposed to post what thoughts.

I completely agree. Just because I personally didn't like the episode and thought it was completely boring, aside from Dean going toe to toe with the head mob guy and his thoughts on the Impala being stolen, doesn't mean I didn't get what they were trying to do. I just didn't appreciate or think it was anything remotely good. Considering I watch the show for the actual supernatural (which other than angels and demons) has been sadly lacking of late and, of course, Dean, have an episode of mob related capers is not my cup of tea. Even on regular TV or movies, if it's mob, gang, or drug related, I pass as that subject IMHO has been overdone to the point of past boring. No, I never watched the Godfathers because what is so entertaining about humans killing each other when that's happening everyday on the news. Plus, movies like Sneakers or Get Shorty are better IMO but I know they don't just write the show for me and so I'm glad if you found it entertaining and enjoyed the homage. But that doesn't mean that the ones that didn't need to mindlessly mildly insulted because they didn't. Not everyone enjoys the same things as is constantly demonstrated within this forum and everywhere else in the world.

[catrox14]

I didn't think of the Maltese Falcon specifically.  and I'm a pretty savvy movie goer. And I'll bet there is a large segment of the audience, especially younger viewers who may not have gotten the reference either. MacGuffins are MacGuffins and there wasn't a MacGuffin in the episode. The Blood was the quest and that's what they got.  

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I love Cas and I wish I felt that assured of his survival, but unfortunately I can’t. He isn’t listed as one of the two leads, when figures like Pedowitz talk about the show ending it’s always “the show will continue for as long as Jared and Jensen want to do it” not “for as  long as Jared, Jensen and Misha want to do it” showing they consider him a lot more expendable. I think we can both agree to disagree on this :) . But hey I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

And the Js always talk about Misha being with the show to the end. 

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Did you realize it was a combo of homage/sendup of The Maltese Falcon.  The cliche was the POINT, not ‘lazy writing’.  Now perhaps they gave the audience too much credit for understanding this and needed to make a direct reference.  But the names Astor and Greenstreet were pretty obvious.  

I understood the references just fine.  I don't think this is a particular good homage or a good episode.  I thought the writing was dull and uninspired, and the plot line was copy and pasted from epiosde 8.  I thought Sam and Dean characterizations were sloppy and stereotyped from how they were perceived in the pilot.  If I was supposed to see the exchanges between the brothers as "teasing" its another thing they failed at.  Because I thought Sam came across as condescending.  It left me seriously questioning at this point if he even likes Dean.   I loathe the 'dumb Dean' trope Dabb seems so fond off. 

Put all this together and it adds up to a bad episode for me. 

It has nothing to do with not "getting it"

[Wayward Son]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I can't say that I disagree with this on a realistic level.  I've often laughed to myself whenever there's a scene of them trying to trail someone in that car, or sneak up on anyone.  The engine is so damn loud there's no way they don't hear them coming from a mile away.  And the car is hardly inconspicuous, even if the engine isn't running.  

But I guess I'm willing to suspend my disbelief because I've totally bought into the lore of Baby.  She's as much a character of the show as everyone else.  Baby was one of my favorite episodes of the series.  And my unpopular opinion is that I absolutely loved the homage to Baby in Swan Song.  I loved everything about it...the narration, the toy soldier, all of it.

I think the whole things become over rated and over blown. I blame a mixture of fan service and pandering to Jensen who is fond of the car.