Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, I was confused by that too. It took him a few episodes to feel it but then turns around and says Speight helped him in episode 2 and it made Michael better. 

I suppose he means he is still doing scenes as Michael in episode three or four - it's just that they are flashbacks. 

[catrox14]

I am bitter that they have neutered it to be less dark and moody without long takes and longer moments focusing on the actors faces mostly and have turned it into a fantasy show with slow mo jump cuts and wire fights. I remember that fight between Dean and the demons in Cain's cabin and it was choreographed perfection.

Even the fight at the beginning of s13 between Dean and the demons when Dean throws the angel blade into the guys neck. Or the brutal fight between Dean and the monster in the car. Those were good fights and now they do these wire stunts that look dumb and make actors look ridiculous.

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am bitter that they have neutered it to be less dark and moody without long takes and longer moments focusing on the actors faces mostly and have turned it into a fantasy show with slow mo jump cuts and wire fights. I remember that fight between Dean and the demons in Cain's cabin and it was choreographed perfection.

Even the fight at the beginning of s13 between Dean and the demons when Dean throws the angel blade into the guys neck. Or the brutal fight between Dean and the monster in the car. Those were good fights and now they do these wire stunts that look dumb and make actors look ridiculous.

And the fight between Dean and Rowena's bodyguard - that was pretty great also.

So they can do it - they just seem to go for the cheese instead.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And the fight between Dean and Rowena's bodyguard - that was pretty great also.

So they can do it - they just seem to go for the cheese instead.

I wonder if Lou Bollo left in the middle of s13 and the new guy started after those great fights.  I still can't believe ANYONE allowed that idiotic wire fight to fly (so to speak). 

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And the fight between Dean and Rowena's bodyguard - that was pretty great also.

So they can do it - they just seem to go for the cheese instead.

I wish I could find that meta I read on Tumblr.  It was really well written and it talked about how the show has shifted from horror to fantasy and how Dean really doesn;t fit anymore because he's the only one whose still hanging around in the horror side of things. 

It's so true.

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish I could find that meta I read on Tumblr.  It was really well written and it talked about how the show has shifted from horror to fantasy and how Dean really doesn;t fit anymore because he's the only one whose still hanging around in the horror side of things. 

It's so true.

He's a man in a kid's world. It's too bad they wouldn't let the grown-ups have one show. I still say if WS focused on Jody and Donna and adult stories, not ridiculously 'tough', pretty, angsty teenagers, it would've been a 100% better show.

[Casseiopeia]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He's a man in a kid's world. It's too bad they wouldn't let the grown-ups have one show. I still say if WS focused on Jody and Donna and adult stories, not ridiculously 'tough', pretty, angsty teenagers, it would've been a 100% better show.

Dabb/Lemming have turned the Lamborghini into Herbie the Love Bug.

[Res]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He's a man in a kid's world. It's too bad they wouldn't let the grown-ups have one show. I still say if WS focused on Jody and Donna and adult stories, not ridiculously 'tough', pretty, angsty teenagers, it would've been a 100% better show.

While I completely agree with this whole post, I really don't care enough for Jody to watch a show she's a lead in but I was all for the WS pilot as that would have gotten Donna and the others off of SPN because I find Donna as annoying as the tweens. Jody I can take guest starring in SPN as long as she isn't undermining the show or Sam and Dean as she did in that Patience ep. Donna just annoys me and I personally do not take her seriously as a hunter.  

[Mulva]

Quote

Donna just annoys me and I personally do not take her seriously as a hunter.

Donna is written and acts like the wacky neighbor in a sitcom.  Her inclusion just shows how far SPN has fallen.  Imagine a character acting like her in the early seasons.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Donna is written and acts like the wacky neighbor in a sitcom.  Her inclusion just shows how far SPN has fallen.  Imagine a character acting like her in the early seasons.

Like Ed and Harry?  Or Ash? Or Becky?

[Mulva]

Who are all long gone characters, not too popular with the fandom, and none of them were supposed to be hunters.  Nobody was pushing for a Becky spinoff.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Mulva

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Who are all long gone characters, not too popular with the fandom, and none of them were supposed to be hunters.  Nobody was pushing for a Becky spinoff.

I would say Ash was at least hunter adjacent, and Ed and Harry were "mixing it up with spirits" to steal a quote from another character.  And, your original point was that you couldn't imagine such a character in the earlier seasons.  I assumed earlier meant through end of Kripke reign, so I pointed out some equally ridiculous characters pre-that time.  If you just want ridiculous hunters, I would posit Richie from Sin City,

[Bobcatkitten]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I would say Ash was at least hunter adjacent, and Ed and Harry were "mixing it up with spirits" to steal a quote from another character.  And, your original point was that you couldn't imagine such a character in the earlier seasons.  I assumed earlier meant through end of Kripke reign, so I pointed out some equally ridiculous characters pre-that time.  If you just want ridiculous hunters, I would posit Richie from Sin City,

Or Garth for that matter...

[Katy M]

39 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Or Garth for that matter...

Yeah, Garth was completely ridiculous, and like Bobby said "how are you still alive?"  But, I didn't consider Season 7 to be an "early season" so I didn't include him. 

[Lemuria]

2 hours ago, Mulva said:

Donna is written and acts like the wacky neighbor in a sitcom.  Her inclusion just shows how far SPN has fallen.  Imagine a character acting like her in the early seasons.

Not in her last major appearance (the one where Sam gets kidnapped.  OK, I know, that doesn't exactly pin it down. :)).  She was pretty serious and pretty badass I thought.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

Not in her last major appearance (the one where Sam gets kidnapped.  OK, I know, that doesn't exactly pin it down. :)).  She was pretty serious and pretty badass I thought.

Breakdown.

[sarthaz]

5 hours ago, Mulva said:

Who are all long gone characters, not too popular with the fandom, and none of them were supposed to be hunters.  Nobody was pushing for a Becky spinoff.

Wait, you suggested there weren't characters like this in the "early seasons", and then when someone mentions them, you dispute them because they're "long gone"? LOL

[devlin]

The horrible little man baby needs to leave my screen ASAP. Firstly he denied a woman her choice whether or not  to have a child, then he decided that his life was more important than hers, he has killed/hurt innocent people with no consequences and has shown very little remorse. But the thing that has sealed the deal is that who does he think he is that he gets to determine the fate of Dean Winchester who was only in that position coz the man baby opened a frigging rift into alternate universe and who would be dead if dean hadn’t made the ultimate sacrifice 

[Katy M]

14 hours ago, devlin said:

The horrible little man baby needs to leave my screen ASAP. Firstly he denied a woman her choice whether or not  to have a child, then he decided that his life was more important than hers, he has killed/hurt innocent people with no consequences and has shown very little remorse. But the thing that has sealed the deal is that who does he think he is that he gets to determine the fate of Dean Winchester who was only in that position coz the man baby opened a frigging rift into alternate universe and who would be dead if dean hadn’t made the ultimate sacrifice 

He wasn't so much denying a woman a choice as he was saving his life, and again, I'm not sure he had conscious control over that.

But, yeah, he either needs to turn full on evil or go.

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He wasn't so much denying a woman a choice as he was saving his life, and again, I'm not sure he had conscious control over that.

He had enough conscious control to decide to be born an adult because it was too dangerous to be a kid.  That showed he had full awareness.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

He had enough conscious control to decide to be born an adult because it was too dangerous to be a kid.  That showed he had full awareness.

I don't think he could have possibly been born an adult.  Kelly would not have just been dead, she would have been exploded.  I think he grew to adult size immediately after birth.  But, I don't really care either way.  He was saving his life when he brought Kelly back, and he actually gave her an extra month or so of life also.  It isn't as if his bringing her back to life killed her.  She was already dead at that point.

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

He had enough conscious control to decide to be born an adult because it was too dangerous to be a kid.  That showed he had full awareness.

It shows some awareness, not full awareness. It also doesn't imply sophisticated moral sense or understanding. 

This was a super-powered fetus. I'm not sure that he can be blamed for reviving Kelly or manipulating Cas any more than a normal fetus can be blamed for siphoning nutrients from its mother. 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It shows some awareness, not full awareness. It also doesn't imply sophisticated moral sense or understanding. 

This was a super-powered fetus. I'm not sure that he can be blamed for reviving Kelly or manipulating Cas any more than a normal fetus can be blamed for siphoning nutrients from its mother. 

Jack told Sam, back in s13, that he knew his mother....that he WAS her...(which makes him telling his human grandparents that he didn't know her....well a contradiction in writing at best...). What is the point of having a archangel nephilim, spawn of Lucifer to boot,  if he didn't have more power, more awareness, more control over his own fate even in utero?  To me it's not remotely equivalent to 100% human stuff.  JMHO

[MysteryGuest]

I'm personally glad Jack's not evil, but I wish they weren't following the same sad sack, "I'm so bad at everything, all I do is bring everyone down" storyline they used for years with Castiel.  It was old then, and it's even older now.  I just don't understand the total lack of creativity from these writers.  I suppose it's possible that Dabb and Co. dictate the basic premise, and they just fill in the blanks, but still, how do they keep their jobs?  I know, they're writing for an old show, with a built-in audience, so why waste any actual talent or money writing for them.  It's depressing.

I like Donna and Jody, and I'm nostalgic about Bobby, but I really want more Sam and Dean.  This show doesn't need a cast of thousands.  

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm personally glad Jack's not evil, but I wish they weren't following the same sad sack, "I'm so bad at everything, all I do is bring everyone down" storyline they used for years with Castiel.  It was old then, and it's even older now.  I just don't understand the total lack of creativity from these writers.  I suppose it's possible that Dabb and Co. dictate the basic premise, and they just fill in the blanks, but still, how do they keep their jobs?  I know, they're writing for an old show, with a built-in audience, so why waste any actual talent or money writing for them.  It's depressing.

I like Donna and Jody, and I'm nostalgic about Bobby, but I really want more Sam and Dean.  This show doesn't need a cast of thousands.  

They really ought to be embarrassed.  BvJ stuff aside, the writing is so predictable and repetitive it's pathetic.  There are volumes of folklore at their disposal,  so I just don't buy that they are hobbled by the show's longevity.  I read fanfics almost every day that have more professional plotting and characterization than this crop of hacks. 

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

.(which makes him telling his human grandparents that he didn't know her....well a contradiction in writing at best...).

I thought he said he did know her and described her relationship with him without saying that it was him. He even talked about how she would talk to him in her womb - again not saying exactly that it was him - so he would have to have known her to know those details, I think. I think he called her a friend, if I remember correctly.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought he said he did know her and described her relationship with him without saying that it was him. He even talked about how she would talk to him in her womb - again not saying exactly that it was him - so he would have to have known her to know those details, I think. I think he called her a friend, if I remember correctly.

Didn't he say he was her intern or something like that?

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Didn't he say he was her intern or something like that?

Yes.  And that he missed her.  He just went with the 'secret mission' cover story based on their assumptions that he was her intern. 

[Pondlass1]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There are volumes of folklore at their disposal,

this is the thing.  I'd even welcome a return of the fairies - and the bunker must be a labyrinth of creepy artifacts or maybe hidden spells that could be triggered by chance summoning a chilling spook.  But Dabb and Co are so fixated on heaven/hell, angels/demons and Luci/Nick  it's galling. Powerful celestial beings must become woobies within a few episodes. Demons that could stick the Winchesters to a wall with the sweep of a hand, now run away when Sam tells them to.

Anything could happen on a show like this. But it's the same old shit over and over again.

And don't get me started on the  Woobie Meets The Grandparents scene.  Believable interactions, Dabb!!   Nothing in that scene made any damn sense. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

this is the thing.  I'd even welcome a return of the fairies - and the bunker must be a labyrinth of creepy artifacts or maybe hidden spells that could be triggered by chance summoning a chilling spook.  But Dabb and Co are so fixated on heaven/hell, angels/demons and Luci/Nick  it's galling. Powerful celestial beings must become woobies within a few episodes. Demons that could stick the Winchesters to a wall with the sweep of a hand, now run away when Sam tells them to.

Anything could happen on a show like this. But it's the same old shit over and over again.

And don't get me started on the  Woobie Meets The Grandparents scene.  Believable interactions, Dabb!!   Nothing in that scene made any damn sense. 

Now its all Vampires and werewolfs.  They rarely go for other monsters. 

I remember when they introduced the storage locker in s3.  I wanted an ep that was just Sam and Dean going through it and reliving old memories.

I wish they had done an episode like that of Sam and Dean exploring the bunker. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Now its all Vampires and werewolfs.  They rarely go for other monsters. 

He's still stuck on Bloodlines

[Dobian]

I'm pretty much sick and tired of the whole "angels are assholes" theme which has been going on for many many seasons now.  With the exception of Castiel and the occasional good turn by someone like Gabriel of course.  The demons on this show are terribly bad and evil...but usually fun.  The angels on the other hand are just d-bags.  They're like the evil heads of large corporations while the demons are the show's mobsters.  Organized crime - fun, corporate criminals - not so much.  It was okay for awhile but just getting old at this point with the new Big Bad.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Dobian

[ster1]

I don't know if this is a Popular or Unpopular Opinion but I think this season feels like a disjointed mess.  Dabb can't keep his own spoilers straight, Eugenie contradicts everyone, and Jensen doesn't even talk about his storyline anymore (so much for all those promises Dabb made him at the end of last season.)

So much exposition and endless talky scenes. The editing is weird (it was distracting how the show cut between Kaia reaming Dean and Jack waking up his Sleeping Beauty.) A lot of the scenes between TFW feel perfunctory while the genuine emotional scenes go to side characters.

And it's bad enough Michael!Dean only lasted 2 episodes; it's worse that those episodes didn't even focus on him. Who cares that some fans have waited 10 years to see Jensen play Michael? (obviously not Dabb or Singer.) So, because I am a bitter fan, I timed the four major storylines in "Gods and Monsters":

Michael - 9 minutes (well, I guess that's better than the 7 minutes in the season premiere)

Sam/Mary/Bobby - 9 1/2 minutes 

Jack - 9 1/2 minutes

Nick - 11 minutes 

The majority of a major mytharc episode was spent on side characters mopey soap opera stories.

No wonder the general audience is tuning out.  I wonder how the ratings will do if Dabb and Berens decide to make Kaia the biggest threat/defeater of Michael, leaving Dean and Sam to watch in wide-eyed wonder. 

I'm seeing more and more longtime fans now dropping the show. I can't really blame them. The more Dabb alienates fans of TFW in favor of his staff's vanity projects, the harder it gets to hang on.  Still hoping the season finds its footing in the upcoming episodes.

[Myrelle]

22 minutes ago, ster1 said:

I don't know if this is a Popular or Unpopular Opinion but I think this season feels like a disjointed mess.  Dabb can't keep his own spoilers straight, Eugenie contradicts everyone, and Jensen doesn't even talk about his storyline anymore (so much for all those promises Dabb made him at the end of last season.)

So much exposition and endless talky scenes. The editing is weird (it was distracting how the show cut between Kaia reaming Dean and Jack waking up his Sleeping Beauty.) A lot of the scenes between TFW feel perfunctory while the genuine emotional scenes go to side characters.

And it's bad enough Michael!Dean only lasted 2 episodes; it's worse that those episodes didn't even focus on him. Who cares that some fans have waited 10 years to see Jensen play Michael? (obviously not Dabb or Singer.) So, because I am a bitter fan, I timed the four major storylines in "Gods and Monsters":

Michael - 9 minutes (well, I guess that's better than the 7 minutes in the season premiere)

Sam/Mary/Bobby - 9 1/2 minutes 

Jack - 9 1/2 minutes

Nick - 11 minutes 

The majority of a major mytharc episode was spent on side characters mopey soap opera stories.

No wonder the general audience is tuning out.  I wonder how the ratings will do if Dabb and Berens decide to make Kaia the biggest threat/defeater of Michael, leaving Dean and Sam to watch in wide-eyed wonder. 

I'm seeing more and more longtime fans now dropping the show. I can't really blame them. The more Dabb alienates fans of TFW in favor of his staff's vanity projects, the harder it gets to hang on.  Still hoping the season finds its footing in the upcoming episodes.

I'm kind of out of hope, tbh. 

And Gods and Monsters was the best of the first three, IMO. It garnered the best ratings including the retention of the live viewing audience through the halfway point-which I now feel is the best way to determine whether the episode was in any way successful or not. 

I think these first three have given us the worst start to a season ever and that number could easily increase to four, in my book, after the Perez episode next week.

And it's all just so hard to watch so I also can well understand the decision to tune out.

[Lastcall]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I'm kind of out of hope, tbh. 

And Gods and Monsters was the best of the first three, IMO. It garnered the best ratings including the retention of the live viewing audience through the halfway point-which I now feel is the best way to determine whether the episode was in any way successful or not. 

I think these first three have given us the worst start to a season ever and that number could easily increase to four, in my book, after the Perez episode next week.

And it's all just so hard to watch so I also can well understand the decision to tune out.

This is my major frustration with the show right now, that it has come back from the brink before....twice. When ratings started to crash and Jensen was unhappy under Gamble the CW fixed it and were rewarded with higher ratings. When ratings started crashing in season 10 they changed things and the viewers and ratings came back in season 11. I think that could happen again if the CW doesn’t give up and realizes there is still life yet in this show. Instead, they took the two people most responsible for Bloodlines failure and promoted them. Then, when the ratings went down in 12 they gave them a SECOND spin off attempt in 13. Now after that spin off crashed and burned they are letting those same failures turn supernatural into Wayward Sisters which no one wants. At this point anyone with talent has left and no one with talent wants to take over a show that everyone thinks is on its last legs. The most tragic part is Dabb is going to get to close out the series on his terms which is going to tarnish the entire series.

[AwesomO4000]

9 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

This is my major frustration with the show right now, that it has come back from the brink before....twice. When ratings started to crash and Jensen was unhappy under Gamble the CW fixed it and were rewarded with higher ratings.

I keep seeing this stated, but is that really what happened or did it have as much to do with the show being moved to Friday nights and then back to a better night?

My unpopular opinion is that if Jensen really did have something to do with Gamble being replaced, I'm kind of annoyed with him, because I really liked season 6 (especially the second half), thought the Castiel / Crowley "partnership" was one of the most unexpected and interesting arc twists the show ever had, and I really enjoyed the dark humor and noir feel Gamble had going. I really liked season 7, too, loved Dick Roman and the amusing leviathans, and was interested to see where Gamble would take the purgatory arc...*** At the time I didn't know Gamble was going to be replaced. That era gave me some of my most favorite episodes of the series: Weekend At Bobby's, The French Mistake, Frontierland, The Man Who Would Be King, Slash Fiction, Time After Time, Repo Man, Death's Door and many others I really really liked... On the other hand, I hated season 8 pretty much from the get go - especially the soap opera-doomed romance/friendship plots - and stopped watching the show for almost 2 months. When I came back to the show, I found that the characters were regressed more than ever.

I'm betting if Jensen wanted Dean to have a better role, he was probably sorely disappointed by what ended up happening in the second half of season 8 which for me was much worse than anything that happened in season 6 and 7 where at least Dean got to kill a bunch of major bad guys - be careful what you wish for and all. Likewise, I didn't like season 9. For me, season 9B was awful, and was even worse than 8B.

If there really were improved ratings, that wasn't reflected by me, that's for sure.

*** Which if I later interpreted what some have said concerning what Carver said when he took over, he seemed to think that the purgatory set up was crap and that Gamble left him nothing to work with for season 8... I beg to differ as I thought the purgatory arc could've been gold, and how Carver told it instead via flashback and pretty much dropped it to give us "supernatural days of our lives" instead was crap. Just my opinion on that one.

[Lastcall]

I actually like season six a lot but I think seven was a disaster. The show got political, the monsters couldn’t be killed, they got rid of Baby, they killed Bobby and the way I heard it she wanted to keep Cas dead. The Jensen thing seemed to come to a head over the trench coat in the trunk scene when Cas was brought back. I don’t know what the major issue was but I did hear he went over her head.

As for eight, the move probably helped. I just remember the articles at the time talking about how television ratings were dropping everywhere and Supernatural was one of the few shows that actually increased.

That being said, at this point I would be fine with Gamble coming back and season seven improved on my season list by three rows.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Lastcall

[Casseiopeia]

47 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I keep seeing this stated, but is that really what happened or did it have as much to do with the show being moved to Friday nights and then back to a better night?

My unpopular opinion is that if Jensen really did have something to do with Gamble being replaced, I'm kind of annoyed with him, because I really liked season 6 (especially the second half), thought the Castiel / Crowley "partnership" was one of the most unexpected and interesting arc twists the show ever had, and I really enjoyed the dark humor and noir feel Gamble had going. I really liked season 7, too, loved Dick Roman and the amusing leviathans, and was interested to see where Gamble would take the purgatory arc...*** At the time I didn't know Gamble was going to be replaced. That era gave me some of my most favorite episodes of the series: Weekend At Bobby's, The French Mistake, Frontierland, The Man Who Would Be King, Slash Fiction, Time After Time, Repo Man, Death's Door and many others I really really liked... On the other hand, I hated season 8 pretty much from the get go - especially the soap opera-doomed romance/friendship plots - and stopped watching the show for almost 2 months. When I came back to the show, I found that the characters were regressed more than ever.

I'm betting if Jensen wanted Dean to have a better role, he was probably sorely disappointed by what ended up happening in the second half of season 8 which for me was much worse than anything that happened in season 6 and 7 where at least Dean got to kill a bunch of major bad guys - be careful what you wish for and all. Likewise, I didn't like season 9. For me, season 9B was awful, and was even worse than 8B.

If there really were improved ratings, that wasn't reflected by me, that's for sure.

*** Which if I later interpreted what some have said concerning what Carver said when he took over, he seemed to think that the purgatory set up was crap and that Gamble left him nothing to work with for season 8... I beg to differ as I thought the purgatory arc could've been gold, and how Carver told it instead via flashback and pretty much dropped it to give us "supernatural days of our lives" instead was crap. Just my opinion on that one.

Gamble became a problem in S7 when she consistently went over budget and the cast was getting the scripts as they were filming.  She had worn out her welcome.  Even the J's had talked about hanging it up (they were not fans of the Dick jokes and Leviathans).  As I heard it told she basically wrote her finale and threw the script at Carver telling him good luck.  Purgatory was going to be impossible to tell because of Supernatural's limited budget. Carver was also saddled with a group of subpar writers...Edlund only wrote 2 episodes in S8,  Adam Glass was more into crime stories, Buck/Lemming and their inappropriate scripts and Dabb who seemed to be butthurt that he wasn't made showrunner.  I always thought that it was Singer who wanted to tell the Sam/Amelia story line.  He was the one that talked about it the most at the time.  Up until S11 Carver wasn't totally in charge.  That all changed half way through S10 when Singer retired, Adam Glass moved on and Buck/Lemming no longer had free rein.  I loved S11 up until Dabb took over.   It was my favorite since S5 (and I loved S6. That was when I first discovered Supernatural).  Carver wasn't perfect but if he hadn't come on board I don't think that Jensen and Jared would have continued.

Carver, Pedowitz and a new night saved the show.  Even if it wasn't what everyone had hoped for.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[devlin]

Jack is not a Winchester! He is the son of Satan who has hurt innocents and manipulates others to get his way and then proceeds to sulk and cry when he thinks someone is being mean to him

Edited October 27, 2018 by devlin

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Purgatory was going to be impossible to tell because of Supernatural's limited budget.

I think with some inventive story-telling it could've been done. Carver filmed flashbacks, so I don't see why that same story couldn't have been told in real time. Dean and Benny could've spent some time in a cave for example or somewhere similar where they hid out sometimes, so we could really get to know Benny and understand how Benny and Dean came to know one another and became such good friends. I can't imagine Dean started out trusting Benny entirely right off the bat, so how did he come to trust him? How did Dean come by his purgatory weapon? Did he make it? How did they track down Castiel... did they just wander around aimlessly until they found him? I would've loved to have seen some of these stories and they wouldn't have been that difficult to film. I also would've maybe gotten to know Benny better and actually maybe warmed up to him more rather than feeling like he was being shown up as "isn't Benny awesome? Just believe us that he's awesome." I might've actually come to know him and felt that way on my own rather than having him shoved at me.

So fans wouldn't miss Sam and Dean interaction so much, each one could've shared stories about the other that we could've seen - with Benny ...and with Amelia if we had to, but I would've preferred Jody myself, since I found Amelia to be a crappy character anyway... or how about Kevin? Sam could've saved Kevin and Sam could've actually gotten to be good friends with Kevin (rather than both brothers pretty much treating him like crap later - which why, (because why didn't they have him stay in the bunker with them again?) and were we supposed to find that not crappy somehow?) Not only that, we might've actually learned something about Sam and Dean - how they see each other, what they think of each other, what they miss about each other when they aren't together... if anything, because of the way the story was told, it seemed to me they never should've gotten back together, since it looked like they didn't miss each other much and were seemingly happier without each other and just made each other miserable... which in turn made me miserable watching it, because if these two people don't really want to be together and are just doing so out of obligation and going through the motions, why should I want to watch them be miserable together?

To make some of the episodes more stand alone, we could've seen Benny and Dean hunt down clues about Castiel's whereabouts and maybe find some interesting other monsters along the way... even monsters we'd seen before and the possibilities were so many: Lenore, Dick Roman, the vampire that turned Dean, Dean's Amazon daughter, Amy Pond, Eleanor, Shapeshifter Dean. Dean was in purgatory a long time, I can imagine he would've come across some monsters that he actually had killed before. And Sam and Kevin could've stumbled on cases while looking for information about Dean.

As for the budget, in order to do the Amelia storyline, they had to have the apartment and the father's house... and then they designed and built the bunker set. And Kevin's boat. Couldn't some of the money spent on those - some elaborate - sets have been better used in a purgatory storyline?

I guess it's all matter of opinion, but I, myself would've liked to have seen more of Dean's story in purgatory and maybe even seen him get some character growth from it. I can't say the same about Sam's story, because the Amelia storyline for me was awful, didn't even fit with anything else, told us almost nothing new about Sam, and was pretty much a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean if the end result wasn't going to be Sam with Amelia - which obviously it wasn't - what was even the point? Were we supposed to feel sorry for Sam that he couldn't be with the annoying woman who he already left anyway? Because I really liked Sam and I was annoyed by his whining, so I can't imagine who would enjoy much of that. I think my eyes glazed over during most of those (pointless) flashbacks when I finally did go back and watch the episodes. I would much rather have seen Sam and Kevin trying to find Dean.

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Carver was also saddled with a group of subpar writers...Edlund only wrote 2 episodes in S8,  Adam Glass was more into crime stories, Buck/Lemming and their inappropriate scripts and Dabb who seemed to be butthurt that he wasn't made showrunner.  I always thought that it was Singer who wanted to tell the Sam/Amelia story line.  He was the one that talked about it the most at the time.

Mostly the same group of writers also wrote for Gamble in season 7, though. The only main difference is that Carver didn't have Sera - who wrote 4 episodes in season 7. Though for me, I found her episodes to be much better*** than Carver's in season 8, so maybe that was the difference? Kidding - mostly. ; ) (and Ben Edlund wrote 3 episodes in season 8, though I will admit one of them was fairly forgettable (for me, since it was "Blood Brothers" and Benny-centric, but I'm sure other's loved it). The other two were the only episodes I really enjoyed in season 8).

And maybe it was Bob Singer who wanted to tell the Amelia storyline, but it was Carver who introduced Amelia and made her a crappy - in my opinion - character and introduced the whole Sam abandons Kevin storyline. He has no one to blame for that but himself. And even if Singer wanted that storyline, why couldn't it have been told in real time? It still would've been almost insufferable, but at least we would've gotten more of purgatory. And almost none of the standalone episodes was even very good, in my opinion, during the first half of the season, so we wouldn't have been missing anything.

*** Especially "Meet the New Boss" (Death!  I love Sera's Death - she did create him after all. In contrast, I really didn't like Carver's writing of Death at all. I don't think he understood the character, myself... and then he killed him.) and "Death's Door." I also really liked "The Born-Again Identity," but I understand why some didn't.

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I loved S11 up until Dabb took over.   It was my favorite since S5 (and I loved S6. That was when I first discovered Supernatural).  Carver wasn't perfect but if he hadn't come on board I don't think that Jensen and Jared would have continued.

I loved season 11 also, but weirdly I attributed it some to Dabb as I think he may have had a hand in the season earlier (?) than the last few episodes which I admit went a little off the rails. I even liked much of season 10, too (I think it was Dabb's best season solo writing-wise, too)... though I thought Carver rushed it quite a bit in the finale - which for me was pretty much a big mess, so... (And he killed Death - which: why? and you bastard! TM South Park.)

1 hour ago, devlin said:

I personally found the gamble era to be a complete mess. She didn’t seem to have a clear direction for the show and I have no idea why the campbells were introduced so if she were to come back i can’t imagine the mess she would make with the au hunters

I agree that he Campbell storyline didn't go anywhere, but it wasGamble's first season. I enjoyed the Castiel / Crowely reveal, and I even ultimately enjoyed the Soulless Sam storyline. I personally found that season less of a mess than Carver's first season. The Amelia storyline for me was pointless. The purgatory storyline didn't go much of anywhere. Naomi's story was completely nebulous in my opinion and made little sense. And the trials storyline ultimately didn't go anywhere either, since the gates to hell weren't closed, and likely never were intended to be. While I agree that season 9 maybe had a little more direction than season 7 in some ways, I didn't like that direction and there was a jarring tonal shift halfway through. I thought season 7 had a much more even tone and style, and I appreciated that there was one overall arc all the way through. I also felt that the characterization was more consistent during the Gamble era.

Or in another way, maybe Gamble was a bit luckier and/or knew when to listen to others, for me. She apparently listened to Ben Edlund in terms of writing the explanatory episode for Castiel, so that storyline ultimately worked for me, and she had Kripke come back and write the finale - which I thought was a great episode and set the next season up very well.

But I also understand that this is subjective on my part.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I actually like season six a lot but I think seven was a disaster. The show got political, the monsters couldn’t be killed, they got rid of Baby, they killed Bobby and the way I heard it she wanted to keep Cas dead.

I can see that. If you didn't like the leviathans and were annoyed by the somewhat social commentary, I can see where season 7 wouldn't be enjoyable.

I was okay with Baby being gone for a little while, though, but that was mostly because I found some of the scenes we got as a result to be comedy gold. Dean cutting down the My Little Pony from the rearview mirror of the minivan, and its sad "sqeeee" as it was tossed in the back seat and "Nobody puts Baby in a corner" will never not amuse me. That whole scene was a great one for me... and that it was followed up by Dean lipsynching to Air Supply just made it even more awesome.

And maybe because I have a twisted sense of humor sometimes, I found the leviathans immensely enjoyable. I Loved Dick Roman, loved Chet, and loved George and Joyce. Leviathan Sam and Dean were great - the line about eating salad being like eating self-righteousness made me laugh out loud. Frank was fun, too.

Ranger Rick. Killer Clowns. Killer vintage porn. Giant slinkies. "You're a virile manifestation of the divine." "This looks like a sex torture dungeon. Is this a sex torture dungeon?" "Call me if you don't die." I think I mostly enjoyed the dark humor tone of it all.

5 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Even the J's had talked about hanging it up (they were not fans of the Dick jokes and Leviathans). 

Heh. I loved the leviathans*** and my inner 12 year old enjoyed the Dick jokes... every time, so I entirely disagreed with them on those points.

*** Come on who couldn't love Chet? ; )

Edited October 27, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

57 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think with some inventive story-telling it could've been done. Carver filmed flashbacks, so I don't see why that same story couldn't have been told in real time. Dean and Benny could've spent some time in a cave for example or somewhere similar where they hid out sometimes, so we could really get to know Benny and understand how Benny and Dean came to know one another and became such good friends. I can't imagine Dean started out trusting Benny entirely right off the bat, so how did he come to trust him? How did Dean come by his purgatory weapon? Did he make it? How did they track down Castiel... did they just wander around aimlessly until they found him? I would've loved to have seen some of these stories and they wouldn't have been that difficult to film. I also would've maybe gotten to know Benny better and actually maybe warmed up to him more rather than feeling like he was being shown up as "isn't Benny awesome? Just believe us that he's awesome." I might've actually come to know him and felt that way on my own rather than having him shoved at me.

So fans wouldn't miss Sam and Dean interaction so much, each one could've shared stories about the other that we could've seen - with Benny ...and with Amelia if we had to, but I would've preferred Jody myself, since I found Amelia to be a crappy character anyway... or how about Kevin? Sam could've saved Kevin and Sam could've actually gotten to be good friends with Kevin (rather than both brothers pretty much treating him like crap later - which why, (because why didn't they have him stay in the bunker with them again?) and were we supposed to find that not crappy somehow?) Not only that, we might've actually learned something about Sam and Dean - how they see each other, what they think of each other, what they miss about each other when they aren't together... if anything, because of the way the story was told, it seemed to me they never should've gotten back together, since it looked like they didn't miss each other much and were seemingly happier without each other and just made each other miserable... which in turn made me miserable watching it, because if these two people don't really want to be together and are just doing so out of obligation and going through the motions, why should I want to watch them be miserable together?

To make some of the episodes more stand alone, we could've seen Benny and Dean hunt down clues about Castiel's whereabouts and maybe find some interesting other monsters along the way... even monsters we'd seen before and the possibilities were so many: Lenore, Dick Roman, the vampire that turned Dean, Dean's Amazon daughter, Amy Pond, Eleanor, Shapeshifter Dean. Dean was in purgatory a long time, I can imagine he would've come across some monsters that he actually had killed before. And Sam and Kevin could've stumbled on cases while looking for information about Dean.

As for the budget, in order to do the Amelia storyline, they had to have the apartment and the father's house... and then they designed and built the bunker set. And Kevin's boat. Couldn't some of the money spent on those - some elaborate - sets have been better used in a purgatory storyline?

I guess it's all matter of opinion, but I, myself would've liked to have seen more of Dean's story in purgatory and maybe even seen him get some character growth from it. I can't say the same about Sam's story, because the Amelia storyline for me was awful, didn't even fit with anything else, told us almost nothing new about Sam, and was pretty much a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean if the end result wasn't going to be Sam with Amelia - which obviously it wasn't - what was even the point? Were we supposed to feel sorry for Sam that he couldn't be with the annoying woman who he already left anyway? Because I really liked Sam and I was annoyed by his whining, so I can't imagine who would enjoy much of that. I think my eyes glazed over during most of those (pointless) flashbacks when I finally did go back and watch the episodes. I would much rather have seen Sam and Kevin trying to find Dean.

Mostly the same group of writers also wrote for Gamble in season 7, though. The only main difference is that Carver didn't have Sera - who wrote 4 episodes in season 7. Though for me, I found her episodes to be much better*** than Carver's in season 8, so maybe that was the difference? Kidding - mostly. ; ) (and Ben Edlund wrote 3 episodes in season 8, though I will admit one of them was fairly forgettable (for me, since it was "Blood Brothers" and Benny-centric, but I'm sure other's loved it). The other two were the only episodes I really enjoyed in season 8).

And maybe it was Bob Singer who wanted to tell the Amelia storyline, but it was Carver who introduced Amelia and made her a crappy - in my opinion - character and introduced the whole Sam abandons Kevin storyline. He has no one to blame for that but himself. And even if Singer wanted that storyline, why couldn't it have been told in real time? It still would've been almost insufferable, but at least we would've gotten more of purgatory. And almost none of the standalone episodes was even very good, in my opinion, during the first half of the season, so we wouldn't have been missing anything.

*** Especially "Meet the New Boss" (Death!  I love Sera's Death - she did create him after all. In contrast, I really didn't like Carver's writing of Death at all. I don't think he understood the character, myself... and then he killed him.) and "Death's Door." I also really liked "The Born-Again Identity," but I understand why some didn't.

I loved season 11 also, but weirdly I attributed it some to Dabb as I think he may have had a hand in the season earlier (?) than the last few episodes which I admit went a little off the rails. I even liked much of season 10, too (I think it was Dabb's best season solo writing-wise, too)... though I thought Carver rushed it quite a bit in the finale - which for me was pretty much a big mess, so... (And he killed Death - which: why? and you bastard! TM South Park.)

I agree that he Campbell storyline didn't go anywhere, but it wasGamble's first season. I enjoyed the Castiel / Crowely reveal, and I even ultimately enjoyed the Soulless Sam storyline. I personally found that season less of a mess than Carver's first season. The Amelia storyline for me was pointless. The purgatory storyline didn't go much of anywhere. Naomi's story was completely nebulous in my opinion and made little sense. And the trials storyline ultimately didn't go anywhere either, since the gates to hell weren't closed, and likely never were intended to be. While I agree that season 9 maybe had a little more direction than season 7 in some ways, I didn't like that direction and there was a jarring tonal shift halfway through. I thought season 7 had a much more even tone and style, and I appreciated that there was one overall arc all the way through. I also felt that the characterization was more consistent during the Gamble era.

Or in another way, maybe Gamble was a bit luckier and/or knew when to listen to others, for me. She apparently listened to Ben Edlund in terms of writing the explanatory episode for Castiel, so that storyline ultimately worked for me, and she had Kripke come back and write the finale - which I thought was a great episode and set the next season up very well.

But I also understand that this is subjective on my part.

I think the boys (J2) went to two year contracts after S5.  Which means Gamble had S6 and half of S7 (probably scripted/filmed through "Slice Girls" or "Plucky's") before they had to decide if they were coming back.  We know that Carver was the one who said "bring Cas back" (which was EP 17).  Which, at a minimum, says that production was not running all that smooth if they were that close with writing and filming scripts.  So, if you look at the timing when they normally enter the next two-year negotiations (November... after TPTB see the ratings in the first few weeks), you can see why J2 may have had issues:
- With Cas gone and Bobby dead the show was back to Sam & Dean only in just about every scene. That's not a creative issue, that's back to treating J2 like workhorses for episode.  Both were married, Jared had a baby on the way.  By now they had proved the show rested on their shoulders more than the show runner.  So if they used that leverage to say 'Sara's not working out', I don't blame them.  In addition to putting all the screen time back on those two, they also probably had some creative concerns.
- Sera put Baby in a corner (aka a barn).  Jensen really likes the Impala and it's part of his enjoyment of the character.  He's mentioned that Baby being gone really rankled.  That's the only "Jensen focused" issue versus common concern.
- Sera killed Cas.  Both boys have stated a steadfast loyalty to Misha - and not just because of time off.  I think they recognize how valuable he was to the series and Sera did not. Killing Bobby was huge as well.  I think if it was JUST Bobby, they would have been okay.  But Bobby and Cas?  Too much IMO.
- There WAS a tonal shift that started in S6 and went on in S7. I've heard both J2 say to "new" binge watchers to be 'patient' with S7.  While I totally agree with @AwesomO4000 that it had moments of brilliance (and I think the boys would agree as well), there was a lack of gravity for a lot of the episodes in the first half of S7.  Combine that with the 'meh' Campbell story of S6 and I could see a concern that she was changing the show to be more farcical that they were comfortable with.  And maybe Bob Singer felt that way too.  He's very much about "character" (even if you think he does a shitty job, this is what Bob says matters to him most).  The character development of the first half of S7 were Sam's hellucinations and Dean's depression/alcoholism.  I would have thought Singer was okay with those aspects but the character bits were 'embellishments' to plot versus central to plot (until Sam let Lucifer in).

Personally I have ZERO doubt that J2 sit and talk and come to a joint decision about renegotiations.  Jensen may be suspected as the vocal one in Gamble's replacement, but I think the driving issue of workload and general tonal shift was likely a mutual concern and would have been raised as such by both of their managers in November of S7. And I have zero problem with the boys making their feelings known at the time of negotiations.  That's their right.  They devote the bulk of their yearly existence to the show and with long hours and a few story concerns, they could have listed those without saying a producer change had to happen.  The producer change could have easily been a 'solution looking for a reason'.  If Singer wanted a change, he could have leverage the boys concerns into a producer change.  And there's less fallout if the boys are 'blamed' than the second EP.

Note: nearly 100% of my comments regarding the boys' opinion comes from responses to questions by the boys at conventions.  I don't recall them offering too much in the way of unsolicited opinions regarding Sera.

[AwesomO4000]

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

And maybe Bob Singer felt that way too.  He's very much about "character" (even if you think he does a shitty job, this is what Bob says matters to him most).

Interesting. I wonder if anyone has ever asked Bob Singer how his being very much about "character" translated into season 8. I found the characterization so botched - for me anyway - I stopped watching and almost didn't come back to the show. I actually thought that Sam's flashbacks were evidence of some mental breakdown or something, because they and his behavior made so little sense to me. I thought Dean's characterization was off a bit, too.

During that time - with one break in early season 9 - I almost wished the show had ended... a sentiment it took a about two seasons (minus that break) for me to overcome.

[SueB]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting. I wonder if anyone has ever asked Bob Singer how his being very much about "character" translated into season 8. I found the characterization so botched - for me anyway - I stopped watching and almost didn't come back to the show. I actually thought that Sam's flashbacks were evidence of some mental breakdown or something, because they and his behavior made so little sense to me. I thought Dean's characterization was off a bit, too.

During that time - with one break in early season 9 - I almost wished the show had ended... a sentiment it took a about two seasons (minus that break) for me to overcome.

I don't know.  If I was to stab at a guess, I'd say that Carver had a more focused 'three year plot' emphasis with the overall character arcs of reshaping the boys relationship to be less codependent and more partnership.  He ended up taking 4 years versus 3. So first Carver went MORE toxic (S8-bulk of S9) and then healed the boys.  So the boys were (IMO) demonstrating almost extreme examples of the worst parts of their personality. Dean was more outwardly controlling, Sam was more outwardly aloof. All while their inner turmoil was about their low self esteem being fueled by a warped perception of how their brother viewed them. Sam thought Dean believed he (Sam) was a 'screw-up' and would rather trust a vampire.  Dean thought he (Dean) was a grunt destined to die bloody while Sam went off to an apple pie life.  S8 ended with the boys getting a less warped view of how the other perceived them.  S9 tackled extremes Dean would go to for Sam. S10 tacked the extremes Sam would go to for Dean.  S11 resulted in a more trusting relationship based on mutual brotherly love (I don't remotely mean anything of the Wincest variety) and respect but put back into the perspective of "Saving People, Hunting Things" bumper sticker.  So, I think Carver's 4-year character dynamic was ultimately successful.  But his episode-by-episode character dynamic was often filled with fear-driven bad behavior.  I think Singer bought into the long-term goal and approach.  I think it was definitely during the Carver era that the show became almost better as a binge-watch than week by week.  The long arcs were much more obvious.

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ben Edlund wrote 3 episodes in season 8,

I forgot about Blood Brother.  I didn't like that episode either.

[Pondlass1]

11 hours ago, Lastcall said:

The most tragic part is Dabb is going to get to close out the series on his terms which is going to tarnish the entire series.

I don't know if this notion is popular or unpopular, but I'd really like Kripke to return to write the final episode and maybe act as showrunner for the final season, which probably will be a shortened (8-12 eps) season 15 (unless 14 really tanks).  It needs to be brought full circle to where it all began.  Two brothers in a cool car driving across the land saving people, hunting things.  You know. the family business.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't know if this notion is popular or unpopular, but I'd really like Kripke to return to write the final episode and maybe act as showrunner for the final season, which probably will be a shortened (8-12 eps) season 15 (unless 14 really tanks).  It needs to be brought full circle to where it all began.  Two brothers in a cool car driving across the land saving people, hunting things.  You know. the family business.  

I think Kripke cares about the show in that he created it, but I don't think he cares whats happening day to day.  He didn't even write the finale before he left.  Some else was credited with the story. 

I wish they would end this season, but s15 does look likely. 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I forgot about Blood Brother.  I didn't like that episode either.

Amelia flashbacks aside I enjoyed Blood Brother for all of the Dean & Benny interaction.

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't know if this notion is popular or unpopular, but I'd really like Kripke to return to write the final episode and maybe act as showrunner for the final season, which probably will be a shortened (8-12 eps) season 15 (unless 14 really tanks).  It needs to be brought full circle to where it all began.  Two brothers in a cool car driving across the land saving people, hunting things.  You know. the family business.  

Well, given Kripke's stated love of excessive gore and (I believe) his original intent to have both boys end up in the Pit as his finale, I imagine his ending would be an uber-bloody Butch and Sundance ending and not them riding off happily into the sunset.  I know some might like that, but not me.  

[Pondlass1]

I've just got a hankering for the way it was in the beginning because I hate the way it is now.  Boring, predictable, messy plot driven drivel cluttered with characters.